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What is Watson's value in a trade?

Texian

Hall of Fame
What was Gary's record against .500 or better teams?

Edit - what was OB's too ?
That's a lot of research that I am not willing to do. Don't let my laziness stop you though. I imagine Kubiak has a worse record against .500 or > teams. GK had a worse team and had to make it better while playing Manning twice a year for 6 of his 8 years. O'Brien inherited a good team and made it worse. O'Brien never had to play Manning twice a year and was lucky enough to play in the worst division in the league.

I often wonder what would have happened if Bob McNair had not fired Kubiak for pulling Keenum out of the Jax game. Say McNair instead of trying to dictate who would be QB told Gary to find another QB in much the same way he went and found Schaub. Gary seemed to have a much better knack for that than O'Brien. I feel fairly confident that Kubiak would have done a much better job than the fiasco of the QB carousel that O'Brien tried in his first couple of years.
 

JB

Old Curmudgeon
Contributor's Club
I often wonder what would have happened if Bob McNair had not fired Kubiak for pulling Keenum out of the Jax game. Say McNair instead of trying to dictate who would be QB told Gary to find another QB in much the same way he went and found Schaub. Gary seemed to have a much better knack for that than O'Brien. I feel fairly confident that Kubiak would have done a much better job than the fiasco of the QB carousel that O'Brien tried in his first couple of years.
If only Rickey would have listened
 

TexansBull

Hall of Fame
To be fair/objective, O'Brien inherited a better roster but the team itself was 2-14.
They were 2-14 because of the Schaub threw so many pick 6s they named it after him.

Let’s be real. The consensus and arguable opinion of the Texans at that time was that Kubiak/Smith couldn’t get them over the next level of just winning divisional banners.

They had a team with few holes outside of the QB position. That’s one of the reasons people flocked around OB. He was supposed to be a “QB whisperer.” He was the one to bring us out of QB misery. That is what was one of the many traits that was oversold on him.

That is why during OBs tenure the defense was able to win the horribly weak division equally weak QB play from the dozen or so QBs that played because our team was solid.
 

TexansBull

Hall of Fame
There are a couple of back stories here:

Peyton Manning was the Colts QB for 6 of 8 of Kubiak' years with the Texans.

O'Brien never faced Manning as the Colts QB.

Kubiak inherited a very bad team.

O'Brien inherited a 12 - 4 team before Matt Schaub went brain dead.

The AFC South was the worst conference in the NFL most of O'Brien's tenure with the Texans.

O'Brien as the Texans HC had a losing record against teams .500 or above.
He isn’t wrong.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
They were 2-14 because of the Schaub threw so many pick 6s they named it after him.

Let’s be real. The consensus and arguable opinion of the Texans at that time was that Kubiak/Smith couldn’t get them over the next level of just winning divisional banners.

They had a team with few holes outside of the QB position. That’s one of the reasons people flocked around OB. He was supposed to be a “QB whisperer.” He was the one to bring us out of QB misery. That is what was one of the many traits that was oversold on him.

That is why during OBs tenure the defense was able to win the horribly weak division equally weak QB play from the dozen or so QBs that played because our team was solid.
The players on offense were getting old and injured. RS refused to draft a QB until McNair made him draft one.
 

TexansBull

Hall of Fame
The players on offense were getting old and injured. RS refused to draft a QB until McNair made him draft one.
It wasn’t old or the way you are making it out to be.

The Rick Smith stuff I can’t argue, but Hoyer and Mallett seemed like OB guys that Rick went out and got him. And Rick Smith did get out foxed on the Garrapollo draft.

But the team OB got was not geriatric by any means.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
It wasn’t old or the way you are making it out to be.

The Rick Smith stuff I can’t argue, but Hoyer and Mallett seemed like OB guys that Rick went out and got him. And Rick Smith did get out foxed on the Garrapollo draft.

But the team OB got was not geriatric by any means.
Look at the OL and how long they played in the league after they moved on from the Texans. Or guys who retired soon there after Myers/W. Smith and a hurt Newton. The OL needed to be re-built. That's why Jones/Brooks were added and once they hit FA RS didn't want to pay them. (In Brooks case with his stomach issues I really cant blame RS. The medical staff failed again)
 

TexansBull

Hall of Fame
Look at the OL and how long they played in the league after they moved on from the Texans. Or guys who retired soon there after Myers/W. Smith and a hurt Newton. The OL needed to be re-built. That's why Jones/Brooks were added and once they hit FA RS didn't want to pay them. (In Brooks case with his stomach issues I really cant blame RS. The medical staff failed again)
Duane Brown
Brandon Brooks
Ben Jones
Chris Myers
Derek Newton
Su FILO

Those were the core in 2014. Brooks and Jones left in 2016, the same year Newton got hurt.

The 2014 draft they got Filo. 2015 no one. 2016 Nick Martin.

OB knew the roster and knew who had to be replaced. Filling holes as players leave or retire is normal. OB as a HC should be able to help do that.

Before you say that is Rick Smiths job - OB is supposed to tell RS what he needs and wants. 2015 draft shows me he wasn’t doing that.

Point stands that the team OB inherited wasn’t that bad of a team. It had one glaring hole at QB. The QB whisperer was supposed to get a QB and help manage the roster. OB didn’t have final say but he had a lot of say as all HCs do.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
Duane Brown
Brandon Brooks
Ben Jones
Chris Myers
Derek Newton
Su FILO

Those were the core in 2014. Brooks and Jones left in 2016, the same year Newton got hurt.

The 2014 draft they got Filo. 2015 no one. 2016 Nick Martin.

OB knew the roster and knew who had to be replaced. Filling holes as players leave or retire is normal. OB as a HC should be able to help do that.

Before you say that is Rick Smiths job - OB is supposed to tell RS what he needs and wants. 2015 draft shows me he wasn’t doing that.

Point stands that the team OB inherited wasn’t that bad of a team. It had one glaring hole at QB. The QB whisperer was supposed to get a QB and help manage the roster. OB didn’t have final say but he had a lot of say as all HCs do.
This is where the dysfunction comes in when your GM/HC aren't aligned. Fact is since RS didn't get to pick his HC he was never going to be aligned with BOB. He was going to draft who he wanted to draft and BOB would have to deal with the consequenses. I truly believe RS was never interested in finding a QB until McNair told him to get a QB and RS took the best FA QB available. He didn't draft DW4 until McNair mandated that too. Fact is RS screwed up the QB position under Kubiak and continued that tradition with BOB by when told by ownership to get a QB he chose Os and then chose to draft DW4 over Mahomes. I do believe this is 1 reason RS cant sniff a job in the NFL, these were his calls and he failed miserably.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
Duane Brown
Brandon Brooks
Ben Jones
Chris Myers
Derek Newton
Su FILO

Those were the core in 2014. Brooks and Jones left in 2016, the same year Newton got hurt.

The 2014 draft they got Filo. 2015 no one. 2016 Nick Martin.

OB knew the roster and knew who had to be replaced. Filling holes as players leave or retire is normal. OB as a HC should be able to help do that.

Before you say that is Rick Smiths job - OB is supposed to tell RS what he needs and wants. 2015 draft shows me he wasn’t doing that.

Point stands that the team OB inherited wasn’t that bad of a team. It had one glaring hole at QB. The QB whisperer was supposed to get a QB and help manage the roster. OB didn’t have final say but he had a lot of say as all HCs do.
5 of the 6 were gone with 2 yrs, XSF maybe lasted 3 yrs.

That tells you the GM/HC weren't on the same page

Brooks- RS didn't want to pay him
Jones- Ditto
Newton- Got hurt
DB- McNair forced a trade
XSF- Sucked, definitely a bad pick by the GM
Martin- Ditto
Myers retired within 2 yrs
Smith -Ditto

At what point does the GM have to accept responibility for the suckage? Are you going to blame Culley if the team sucks because Caserio cant draft between rds 2-4? After all using your logic, it's Culley's fault that he cant articulate the types of players he wants Caserio to draft.

For me if things dont work out then it should fall directly on the GM's shoulders since he's the guy making the picks.
 
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TexansBull

Hall of Fame
This is where the dysfunction comes in when your GM/HC aren't aligned. Fact is since RS didn't get to pick his HC he was never going to be aligned with BOB. He was going to draft who he wanted to draft and BOB would have to deal with the consequenses. I truly believe RS was never interested in finding a QB until McNair told him to get a QB and RS took the best FA QB available. He didn't draft DW4 until McNair mandated that too. Fact is RS screwed up the QB position under Kubiak and continued that tradition with BOB by when told by ownership to get a QB he chose Os and then chose to draft DW4 over Mahomes. I do believe this is 1 reason RS cant sniff a job in the NFL, these were his calls and he failed miserably.
You make a valid point. Can’t argue it except RS did try to draft Garrapolo - supposedly.

Edit - and also the dysfunction was more of a McNair doing because he should have fired RS with Kubiak.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
You make a valid point. Can’t argue it except RS did try to draft Garrapolo - supposedly.

Edit - and also the dysfunction was more of a McNair doing because he should have fired RS with Kubiak.
BOB supposedly wanted Jimmy G and RS said he would draft him in the 3rd rd.

In typical fashion when it comes to RS drafting QB's he got jumped in the draft.
 

OptimisticTexan

2021 Building Block 1 / Go Texans
For what it is worth:
I mentioned the Eagles as my favorite but I wouldn’t rule out the WFT or Giants either...once Watson is cleared to play again. Not sure either team would sit on the sidelines and let the Eagles be the sole bidder b/c neither team has their long term answer under center at the moment.
 

badboy

Hall of Fame
I mentioned the Eagles as my favorite but I wouldn’t rule out the WFT or Giants either...once Watson is cleared to play again. Not sure either team would sit on the sidelines and let the Eagles be the sole bidder b/c neither team has their long term answer under center at the moment.
I'm not sure if wft has anything I really want but the Giants as I understand do have two round ones that are expected to be decent. WFT should have traded with me as I suggested before last year. LOL
 
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badboy

Hall of Fame
I just found out that Philadelphia drafted a quarterback Jamie Newman that I really like. I would definitely consider making him part of a trade for d w.
 

Texian

Hall of Fame
Belichick has total control yet Caserio is solely to blame for the Pats last 5 drafts (before this year)?
Caserio was responsible for setting the table, Belichick decision to pick from the table after it was set. The bone you've to pick is with Bob Kraft, not me. It was Kraft who threw Caserio under the bus and said he had to pay $200MM in FA to right the the ship from 5 years of bad drafting. Early consensus is Pats had a much better draft this year and the general consensus is Texans had the worst.
 

Texian

Hall of Fame
I've got more faith in Belichicks GM than his HC tree.

Dimitroff/Robinson
Atlanta is trying to clean up from Dimitroff mess of salary cap hell that has handcuffed the Falcons and are currently trying to trade Julio. Robinson has had two bone head drafts that have stunk up the joint. A lot of failed clerks starting with Pioli. Caserio reminds me a lot of Pioli.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
Atlanta is trying to clean up from Dimitroff mess of salary cap hell that has handcuffed the Falcons and are currently trying to trade Julio. Robinson has had two bone head drafts that have stunk up the joint. A lot of failed clerks starting with Pioli. Caserio reminds me a lot of Pioli.
Yet Dimitroff should've won a SB if Lil Shanny hadn't gone brain dead.

Robinson just made it to the AFCCG 2 yrs ago and was leading in the 3rd qtr.

Why does Caserio remind you of Pioli? Caserio hasn't had enough time to judge much of anything. IMHO
 

JB

Old Curmudgeon
Contributor's Club
Caserio was responsible for setting the table, Belichick decision to pick from the table after it was set. The bone you've to pick is with Bob Kraft, not me. It was Kraft who threw Caserio under the bus and said he had to pay $200MM in FA to right the the ship from 5 years of bad drafting. Early consensus is Pats had a much better draft this year and the general consensus is Texans had the worst.
And yet...
The problem in NE, the reason so many scouts end up not renewing with them, is because of Belichick. Scouts put years of work in on a guy, scouting department heads goes through the building the board process and build a draft plan, then Belichick comes in last minute and goes rogue based on his intel and his gut. After years of not having your work valued, scouts just want out. That is what has been happening in NE.
You want to blame Caserio and I get that... or you could be honest and give him a chance
 

badboy

Hall of Fame
I have stated my value for DW in my thread BADBOY's trades and draft picks for 2022. Most posters opinions on his value is well known. Mine has nothing to do with my opinion of his current off field situation.
 

Texian

Hall of Fame
And yet...


You want to blame Caserio and I get that... or you could be honest and give him a chance
This is exactly what I have done. I refer you to the attached post. You can add to that Strike 6 for that horrendous draft.
Nick Caserio - New GM | Page 32 | Houston Texans Message Board & Forum - TexansTalk.com

We shall hear no more of not giving Caserio a chance.

This Texans draft reminded me of the 2005 LIONS draft and the GM, Matt Millen walking to the phone to call in their 1st RD pick, Demarcus Ware. Millen is corned by a couple of offensive coaches and is talked into taking WR Mike Williams instead.

Caserio giving up the store to move up in the draft is a foreboding sign of what's to come with the DW4 eventual trade. The handwriting is on the wall. Get ready it is going to be a trade no one will like it.
 
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Texansballer74

Hall of Fame
This is exactly what I have done. I refer you to the attached post. You can add to that Strike 6 for that horrendous draft.
Nick Caserio - New GM | Page 32 | Houston Texans Message Board & Forum - TexansTalk.com

We shall hear no more of not giving Caserio a chance.

This Texans draft reminded me of the 2005 LIONS draft and the GM, Matt Millen walking to the phone to call in their 1st RD pick, Demarcus Ware. Millen is corned by a couple of offensive coaches and is talked into taking WR Mike Williams instead.
lol that was not a horrendous draft. It’s like bump the known fact of them not having a first or second round selection.
Bump the fact Nick came into a very terrible situation on that particular level. Put that disclaimer out there because getting a GM job in the NFL is always lucrative/good. But man you’re being a little bit too hasty about this year’s draft. And it looks like you don’t like the dude because he came from the Patriots. Therefore, you won’t like anything he does and you’re going to be extra critical whenever it comes to him or any other person who come from New England.
 

Texian

Hall of Fame
lol that was not a horrendous draft. It’s like bump the known fact of them not having a first or second round selection.
Bump the fact Nick came into a very terrible situation on that particular level. Put that disclaimer out there because getting a GM job in the NFL is always lucrative/good. But man you’re being a little bit too hasty about this year’s draft. And it looks like you don’t like the dude because he came from the Patriots. Therefore, you won’t like anything he does and you’re going to be extra critical whenever it comes to him or any other person who come from New England.
In the words of Deshaun Watson, some things never change.
 


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