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[Chron.com] Dunta outlines terms
- Thread starter Mike Kerns
- Start date
J. Sean Wonton
Waterboy
I like the points you're making. It is a business, but it's also more than a business. When it becomes just business, it will die, but hopefully the day will never come. Hopefully, there will always be players who love the game and that includes loving their teams. Hopefully fans will always have an emotional connection to their teams and the players.
The day that players and fans become people showing up at the office to collect a check and people going out for some entertainment and a beer will be sad day when we lose one of the few remaining institutions in our country that still has a soul.
I hope everyone saves some venom for future contract talks that are truly acrimonious. Being so tough on this "five months before the season starts" patty cake leaves little room for escalation when a successful Slaton, Winston, Williams, or whoever holds out for even more money and really hurts the team by not practicing or playing.
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I'm glad none of the fans here found out that recent All-Pro Jerome Mathis was getting ready to hold out for a new contract when he crashed his motorcycle and future. That would have been messy.
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I see the team painted as "honorable" all over this thread. I don't think the teams in the NFL are all that honorable, including the Texans. They cut players who have signed contracts all the time. I understand teams are allowed to do that - that is the way the the contracts work. Players injured in the line of duty (even injured "outside of the rules") often don't get fair shakes from teams either. Sure, that is the team playing within the rules too for the the most part.
If playing within the rules is all it takes to be honorable though, that should apply to players. I don't think Dunta in this case has done anything outside the rules. In fact, I suspect most of his teammates support Dunta over the organization and don't think this situation is all that big a deal. Maybe they are all part of the problem.
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The truth of the matter is that the Texans aren't that much different from the average organization. I imagine they've been able to keep some bad stuff out of the tame press here though, and they've never had that great national scrutiny that airs their dirty laundry.
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I'm glad none of the fans here found out that recent All-Pro Jerome Mathis was getting ready to hold out for a new contract when he crashed his motorcycle and future. That would have been messy.
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I see the team painted as "honorable" all over this thread. I don't think the teams in the NFL are all that honorable, including the Texans. They cut players who have signed contracts all the time. I understand teams are allowed to do that - that is the way the the contracts work. Players injured in the line of duty (even injured "outside of the rules") often don't get fair shakes from teams either. Sure, that is the team playing within the rules too for the the most part.
If playing within the rules is all it takes to be honorable though, that should apply to players. I don't think Dunta in this case has done anything outside the rules. In fact, I suspect most of his teammates support Dunta over the organization and don't think this situation is all that big a deal. Maybe they are all part of the problem.
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The truth of the matter is that the Texans aren't that much different from the average organization. I imagine they've been able to keep some bad stuff out of the tame press here though, and they've never had that great national scrutiny that airs their dirty laundry.
Pantherstang84
@rolisrgti06
Hey. If Slaton, Mario and Winston are hauling the mail when their contracts are up, then I'll be the first one to yell PAY EM!
I'm saying the same thing about OD and Demeco, "PAY THE MEN!"
Do you hear OD and Demeco spouting off to the press about how they are being lied to and being treated unfair?
They are doing things the right way.
The problem with Robinson is he has a very over inflated sense of his value. He is not even tagged with the Exclusive tag. If he can get a better deal elsewhere in a sign and trade deal no one is stopping him. He can even get a deal with another team if they are willing to swallow the poison.
It seems the market out there doesn't believe what he thinks he is worth.
He is burning his bridges. If he is not careful he might find himself on an island.
I have little doubt that every player in the league is supporting D-Rob,
just like I have little doubt that every team/owner is supporting the Texans.
This is strictly a garden vareity league labor-management beef, and as you've pointed out not really too contentous. Yet.
Hooston Texan
Rookie
This is a business, and Dunta's actions are consistent with negotiating. He's doing exactly what he should be doing: using whatever leverage he has to get the best deal possible. His problem is that the tag gives him very little leverage short of missing games and $600,000 weekly paychecks. So he's trying to do what guys like Fat Albert did: get the team to agree not to tag him after next season.
I have no doubt that the moment Dunta eventually signs his franchise tender, he'll be physically ready to play. Competitiveness is not an issue with him. And his position probably requires less preparation than any other on the defensive side. We can just plug him in and go.
Its no fun watching a favorite player become cross-wise with the home team, but everything Dunta is doing right now is consistent with a player making a good-faith effort to get a good deal. No bridges are burning at this point.
I have no doubt that the moment Dunta eventually signs his franchise tender, he'll be physically ready to play. Competitiveness is not an issue with him. And his position probably requires less preparation than any other on the defensive side. We can just plug him in and go.
Its no fun watching a favorite player become cross-wise with the home team, but everything Dunta is doing right now is consistent with a player making a good-faith effort to get a good deal. No bridges are burning at this point.
hadaad
Rookie
And everything that the fans are doing is almost exactly what is expected of them. They see a rich guy holding out because millions and millions are not enough for him, and it upsets the illusion, the magic that is professional football.
Every time one of these guys holds out (and i realize that not showing up for voluntary activities is not holding out), it puts more distance between the players and the fans. Not that that should be a huge factor for a guy like Dunta, if he doesn't care, but it is a factor, nonetheless.
Every time one of these guys holds out (and i realize that not showing up for voluntary activities is not holding out), it puts more distance between the players and the fans. Not that that should be a huge factor for a guy like Dunta, if he doesn't care, but it is a factor, nonetheless.
Texan JBZ
Da Sip's Finest
I can't say that I agree with that. Dunta needs to know his situation and proceed accordingly. I'm with the players getting as much money as they possibly can, but there is a limit. Dunta came back from a serious injury and only played in a handful of games last season. IMO, the organization showed their loyalty to him by offering him a more than fair deal considering his situation. Maybe he's worth more, maybe he isn't. I tend to believe the latter, and this is coming from a former Dunta jock-rider. But acting like the Texans slapped him in the face by offering him $23 million in guaranteed money that HE turned down was troubling at first. His reaction to having the franchise tag slapped on him when he knew it was an option (I don't care what kind of promise Rick Smith made) was upseting. But this latest outburst from him is the straw that broke the camels back. Dunta isn't a top 3 CB in the NFL. He isn't even top 5. Hell, he may not even be top 10! So, to come out and spout off demands after the truth came out about what he actually turned down did it for me. How can he not know that what he said wouldn't go well for him in the eyes of the fans and the organization? He's getting bad advice, or just not acting on the advice that he's been given.
It's not the point of him holding out that bothered me. That's part of the game. It's the fact of how he's acting like he's something that he obviously isn't. I wasn't upset at Demeco for what he said, because it was the truth. The guy was Defensive ROY, has made a Pro-Bowl START, and is the toughest player on the Texans. I didn't have a problem with OD coming out and saying what he did. OD is one of the top 3-5 TE in the NFL after being drafted in the 4th round, and has made a Pro Bowl. These guys deserve to be paid, and they're going about there situations the right way - out of the public eye. What has Dunta done in his career to deserve to be acting the way he is? He definitely hasn't done more the Demeco and OD, and I guarantee that they will get new deals worked out soon because they are going about their business the right way.
Dunta did well to return last season, but he wasn't NEAR his pre-injury self before the end of the season and had lots of problems with footing and cuts. Here we are, a few months down the road and he's planning on missing camp and possibly regular-season games? CB requires plenty of reps to get your body used to "reacting" to another player's moves - there simply isn't any good substitute for it. Other than the rookies, Dunta would be my #1 guy I'd be watching for progress DURING camp.
So, let me get this straight.
Dunta was offered $23 million, before they franchised him? $23 million guaranteed? He turned that down..... they tag him, now all he wants is a promise not to be franchised next year?
We're going to pay the guy $9 million + this year?
I don't think he's that great of a corner, and I don't think we'll miss him that badly. I'd have him sit out the year, not get paid, and let him go next year.
Dunta was offered $23 million, before they franchised him? $23 million guaranteed? He turned that down..... they tag him, now all he wants is a promise not to be franchised next year?
We're going to pay the guy $9 million + this year?
I don't think he's that great of a corner, and I don't think we'll miss him that badly. I'd have him sit out the year, not get paid, and let him go next year.
TexanBacker93
Veteran
The big fear I have with this situation is how badly the Texans need to start the season strong. They can't afford to lose those early games that the schedule makers have given them. I'm not suggesting that they are patsy games, but they are games this team should be winning. They need Dunta on the field to win those games. Of course they could win them without him, but he does make a difference. I don't think he is one of the top CBs in the league. He's the best on this team, though, and he's a leader on the field. Look at how much better the defense played after he came back. Look at the emotion he brought to the fans when he came running out of that tunnel in his first game back. The Texans need his passion. The fans need his passion. I don't doubt he will show up in time to start collecting his paychecks. If this was another player I wouldn't worry that he could miss all of training camp and all of the preseason and be ready to go on September 13. Dunta is still coming off that injury and needs to get out there. He needs reps and he also has a new DC and new position coach to work with. I think he keeps his leverage and doesn't show up until he has to unless the team gives him what he wants. I say they need to make that promise and don't use the franchise tag on him. Try to work out a long term deal, but I wouldn't increase the original offer unless they can work some incentives in there. If he really wants to go somewhere else the Texans are going to lose him eventually. Make the best of what you have.
Maybe if the Texans take that step and give him the promise that if he signs the tender they won't use the franchise tag on him he'll see that as a sign that they are willing to work with him and be honest with him. Right now it's a huge you know what match and somebody has to be the bigger man and say I'll make the first concession.
If he does leave via free agency they can target a top flight CB in the 2010 draft to replace him. Plus, depending on what kind of free agents they bring in they could get a good compensatory pick in the following year's draft (depending on how well he performs). The Pats let Samuel go and seemed to do ok. I believe they ended up with a 3rd round pick this year for him.
Maybe if the Texans take that step and give him the promise that if he signs the tender they won't use the franchise tag on him he'll see that as a sign that they are willing to work with him and be honest with him. Right now it's a huge you know what match and somebody has to be the bigger man and say I'll make the first concession.
If he does leave via free agency they can target a top flight CB in the 2010 draft to replace him. Plus, depending on what kind of free agents they bring in they could get a good compensatory pick in the following year's draft (depending on how well he performs). The Pats let Samuel go and seemed to do ok. I believe they ended up with a 3rd round pick this year for him.
El Tejano
Hall of Fame
Meanwhile, Atogwe has said that he doesn't mind the franchise tag at all. He feels that a deal will be worked out and if it isn't, he considers it an honor that the team would consider him one of the top 5 safeties in the league. WOW!
Then you look at Dunta. Get's a potentially career ending injury. The team that drafted you doesn't cut you, but allows you to rehab. You make it back quicker than expected and yet the team holds out for you even though you don't get to play until the 8th game of the season. Then at the end of the season they say here's 23 mil and you say no to that so they franchise you because the franchise thinks enough of you even after your injury with questions that they don't want you to leave because they think you are a piece to the winning puzzle.
This is crazy. Let the tag go on him now, and see what he gets. There are a couple of vet CBs in FA right now that can come in and make a solid 1-2 year contribution at a much cheaper rate and can teach these new DBs we got in the draft. Besides we may have a better dl this year and the INTs may come easier.
Then you look at Dunta. Get's a potentially career ending injury. The team that drafted you doesn't cut you, but allows you to rehab. You make it back quicker than expected and yet the team holds out for you even though you don't get to play until the 8th game of the season. Then at the end of the season they say here's 23 mil and you say no to that so they franchise you because the franchise thinks enough of you even after your injury with questions that they don't want you to leave because they think you are a piece to the winning puzzle.
This is crazy. Let the tag go on him now, and see what he gets. There are a couple of vet CBs in FA right now that can come in and make a solid 1-2 year contribution at a much cheaper rate and can teach these new DBs we got in the draft. Besides we may have a better dl this year and the INTs may come easier.
I am trying to find a history of the franchise tag. So far what I have found is this from February of 2008:
My memory suggests that players who make the "promise you won't tag me next year and I'll play this year" demand end up on other teams. I don't know if this is because they really wanted to be gone anyway or because the tag limited the scope of the bidding wars over them. I lean towards the just wanting out explanation because ifhe really wanted to be a Texan there would be no need for the extra demand.
Anyway, the more I hear Robinson barking publicly and negotiating through the media, the more I accept the fact he will be playing for another club. I just hope the Texans can get something for him. But, really, what team will pay Robinson what he wants and cough up a valuable pick for him?
If we can't trade him, why not? Maybe we can get in on a compensitory pick. Though, you have to be unable to replace his production, but it won't be too hard to do that. I'm kinda sad we offered him 23 mil. He is nowhere near worth that much.
bckey
All Pro
How about the Titans game at Reliant when we came from way back to take the lead only to have Dunta burned in the last minute on a long pass play that basically cost us one of the best come backs ever.
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This got me to thinking that if D.Rob wants an elite CB paycheck, then perhaps we should save it to sign an elite CB when one eventually becomes available. Why tie up our money with someone that doesn't really give us what we are paying for?
I say call his bluff and deal with the repercussions next off-season.
Pantherstang84
@rolisrgti06
I agree. Keep in mind his tag his tag is of the non-exclusive variety. Nothing is preventing his agent from getting a better deal somewhere else. Could even do a sign and trade.
I suspect their phones aren't ringing that much.
TexansSeminole
Hall of Fame
While I don't like the idea of having Bennett and Reeves as our starting CBs (assuming we don't sign anyone) if we cut Dunta, the guy is being unrealistic. I agree with DB in that we shouldn't sign a player unless he is worth the deal.
drewmar74
disgruntled
Want me to call Rick Smith and propose that for you? Damn fine thinking.
I'd rather pay a few guys marginal money for marginal return than pay one guy elite money for marginal return.
Ever hear of the saying "fall into a bucket of sh!t and come out smelling like rose"?
I think the Texans fell into the bucket of sh!t when they offered Dunta that 23 million guaranteed. He was miles away from being worth that, and I'm pissed that they even offered it to him.
And as for Dunta, well, I guess I'm happy he bailed them out of such an idiotic decision. But he can take that hyper-inflated opinion of his worth and go somewhere else.
I think the Texans fell into the bucket of sh!t when they offered Dunta that 23 million guaranteed. He was miles away from being worth that, and I'm pissed that they even offered it to him.
And as for Dunta, well, I guess I'm happy he bailed them out of such an idiotic decision. But he can take that hyper-inflated opinion of his worth and go somewhere else.
TexanBacker93
Veteran
Unless he is traded before the season (or during) he has to play for the Texans this year. Unless he is willing to give up his entire salary. Maybe the numbers indicate that if we promise not to tag him and we don't tag him that he'll move on. Still, it won't be until next season and I am willing to bet he'll have a contract year. I'd take that. I don't want someone on the team that flat out doesn't want to be here. This season I think he'll be fine. If they take the hardline stance and refuse to make that promise to him I think it will hurt the team more than it helps.
As for a longer term contract, I think the Texans should offer him Bryan McFadden (2 years $10 million total) money. He's closer to McFadden level than a top 5 guy. Still, I think he's an important part to the team this season and I'd rather make him happy get that free agent to be production out of him and look to get a replacement in the draft. Another year of seasoning for Bennett, Moulden, and Reeves and maybe they can bring in someone with the 32nd pick in the draft to replace the departing Dunta Robinson.
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GP
Go Texans!
Here's my current tirade/rant:
I'd trade him for a late 1st round pick or a high 2nd round pick, and get him GONE before he can infect the locker room. None of this "sitting around and seeing how it works out this season" crud. He's played his hand, let him deal with the cards he's dealt himself. All in.
Look, he wants to NOT to be tagged...so let's help him with that: Trade him, get something for him, and move on. It doesn't have to be a big deal, but it can't be lower than a 2nd rounder since Dunta was a first rounder. Additionally, I might even want a player in return from the team we deal with (in conjunction with the draft pick compensation).
Promising to NOT tag him is not wise, IMO. Our FO is not going to do that. Dunta exists as nothing more than trade bait, and we better not set the bar too high like we did with Sage.
I think the FO is letting him see how scarce the opportunities are for him to go to another team, but I hope the FO says "Look, where are some places you'd like to go?" And if that list includes some title-contending teams, then we get a 1st rounder IMO...no way is he going to go and grab a ring after pulling this crap unless we get a first round talent in return.
He has almost a $10 million paycheck for this year alone, no other teams are contacting him about a deal right now, and he wants to go hitchhiking after this season to see who will give him a ride? LOL. He's outside his mind!
There was a time when I would have desired to get an autograph and at least say something nice to Dunta if I ever stumbled upon him (which would be a miracle, btw). Now? I'd straight-up give him that "you turd..." look as I walked by him. Might even shake my head and make the "you crazy" signal with my index finger circling my ear.
What a waste. Honest to goodness, the guy has lost it. Boo-hoo, he never knows when his last payday will be. I am trying to help a man and his wife who just found out today that his job is gone because they closed his place of employment down. He has no money, they live in a rat hole and haven't had a working stove in over a year--every meal is cooked in their microwave. He has a vision defect and so the job prospects are going to be much more limited than the normal average man out there has to deal with. My wife and I are going to get them moved to a better place (out of our own money) and we're going to help him file for unemployment (he doesn't know how to) and we're going to help him fill out his job apps (he can't see very well).
And Dunta, God bless his heart, is bent out of shape over millions and not being able to play wherever he wants this year.
What the hell has this country gone to? Some people need a reality check. It's times like this that make me angry at our society. Colin Powell said that we're such a superpower that the only thing that can bring us down is us. I believe we're doing a great job of that.
Trade the guy, and keep him away from the other players.
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Great Post GP (Reality)
Bye Dunta
Bye Dunta
What if nobody offers a 1st or 2nd? What if the best we can get is a 3rd?
I agree, though. Shop him around. His focus is primarily money, which is his right, but the team owes no loyalty to him after getting a $23 million offer rejected and he's going public with his gripes. It's just business at this point. No emotions should be involved. Do what is best for the team, always.
And may I add that what you're doing for those people is commendable. Good job GP!
dalemurphy
Hall of Fame
What if nobody offers a 1st or 2nd? What if the best we can get is a 3rd?
I agree, though. Shop him around. His focus is primarily money, which is his right, but the team owes no loyalty to him after getting a $23 million offer rejected and he's going public with his gripes. It's just business at this point. No emotions should be involved. Do what is best for the team, always.
Remember, if we lose him to FA, we will receive a 3rd round compensatory pick for him. so, unless we get blown away with an offer, it makes sense to let this thing play itself out.
mexican_texan
Furry Tractors
I can't see the Texans paying him any more than they already have. I can't see myself cheering for the guy again. DeMeco, I understand, he's being paid well below market value and is a vital part of our defense. I've never seen Reeves or Bennet get burned like D-Rob; I know what he brings to the team, but how often is he caught out of position?
C
Ckw
Guest
What if nobody offers a 1st or 2nd? What if the best we can get is a 3rd?
Then you take the 3rd round pick and expect at least a 2nd string DB in return.
Like imatexan said, I would gladly take a 3rd and someone like Sheldon Brown, although he may be just as much of a cancer. I really don't know enough about him.
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imatexan
All Pro
Alright thanks for the input..
edo783
Hall of Fame
Trade him for RB Bush or the CB in Philly, Brown and just move on down the road. If you cant' get that take a pick, if not above a three, pull the F-Tag offer after the first week in camp, wish him well and get out of his way as he goes out the door, and save the 10 mill to get as good a CB as we can and again, just move on down the road.
Pantherstang84
@rolisrgti06
I likey! I choose going for Brown.
Take Dunta's 10 mil and take care of Demeco and OD in the process.
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Brown wants more money. I wouldn't trade one contract dispute for another. I would LOVE Bush.
C
Ckw
Guest
Who is this Bush you speak of? Surely you guys aren't talking about Jesus in cleats?!?
PapaL
Loose Screw
RB Bush Michael OAK
PapaL
Loose Screw
I don't know. Now that this thread has "proven" that Dunta is overrated, a number two corner at best, and a locker room cancer - why settle for a number one pick? Let's take a first AND a second round pick for him!
How perception becomes reality around these parts. Sheesh. Crazy talk. Last year it was all We love you DRob. Get well soon. Now he's garbage, a cancer and everyone hates him.
I would swear D.Carr is posting something of this stuff.
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
I don't know. Now that this thread has "proven" that Dunta is overrated, a number two corner at best, and a locker room cancer - why settle for a number one pick? Let's take a first AND a second round pick for him!
Tomorrow morning, I plan on sending my trusted "employee" Guido to "suggest" to Dunta a "deal he can't refuse"...................or, alternatively, accept an offer to return him to original nonworking condition.
This guy. Reggie is no bueno.
TexanBacker93
Veteran
I'd love to see the Texans trade him, but realistically what do you expect to get in return. Unless he accepts a long term deal in advance with a team that is financially suitable for them he isn't worth a 3rd round pick. He has already turned down $23 million guaranteed. What does that say to any other front office? Nobody is going to pay him more than that until they see if he can play an entire season. The Texans would be better served getting him out there and getting the best they can from him this season. If he doesn't report until September 6th and is inactive for the first week because he isn't in shape and the Texans stumble to the Jets everyone here will be calling for Smithiak's job because they didn't give in. This franchise has to win now. There are no more excuses left to use. Get the best usage you can from him and if he walks then the team will get a compensatory pick.
The following public service announcement is brought to you by Andre Johnson and the NFL.
Now, we return you to your Dunta bashing thread.
This is normal. Robinson is a big piece of the Texans puzzle. I expect to see him here.
Now, we return you to your Dunta bashing thread.
Kaiser Toro
Native Mod
HJam72
Hall of Fame
Why don't the Texans just agree not to franchise him next year, have him sign the tender, and then see how the year goes?
If he returns to form, fine, sign him to a nice deal.
If he sucks, let him walk. If he picks up some big deal with some other team and plays well, we'll get a 3rd or 4th round pick as compensation from the NFL
If he returns to form, fine, sign him to a nice deal.
If he sucks, let him walk. If he picks up some big deal with some other team and plays well, we'll get a 3rd or 4th round pick as compensation from the NFL
They would then lose their leverage to trade him after the 2009 season.
(1) The franchise tag is a tool that all teams are provided. Agreeing not to utilize that tool for one player puts us at a competitive disadvantage.
(2) I think it sets a bad precedent. You give into a player demand like this, you are letting the prisoners run the jail house.
This is a pissing contest of ultimate proportions. Dunta turned down $23M guaranteed and is trying to save face. Smith, like any GM, doesn't want to appear manipulated by a player. I have no idea how this works out...
Not all teams are going to get value for every player that leaves. I'd rather have him contribute for a year and bolt than have him whine for a year and get a 3rd or 4th rounder for him next year
With the way the compensation works, if he does sign that big pay day somewhere else, we'll still be compensated with a 3rd or 4th round selection
This I can understand. Unfortunately, I think this is now working to the detriment of our team. Its like those people you see in the grocery store with kids who are screaming for some candy. You can either say "No" and make a point, and watch the kid scream and scream. Or you can give in and say "just this once" Since its not my kid, I'd prefer you just give them the damn candy. The screaming is driving me crazy. I do understand the other side though