Well - As a fan, I feel like this is my kid...or maybe a neice or nephew. I don't want to be on these message board next year worrying about OD being out of camp because the Texans wouldn't agree to the same one year franchise limit given to Dunta. I think in the long run, this could work against the Texans in negotiations.
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[Chron.com] Dunta outlines terms
- Thread starter Mike Kerns
- Start date
Well - As a fan, I feel like this is my kid...or maybe a neice or nephew. I don't want to be on these message board next year worrying about OD being out of camp because the Texans wouldn't agree to the same one year franchise limit given to Dunta. I think in the long run, this could work against the Texans in negotiations.
If we give in, it casterates our team to any potential FA in the future. Haynesworth and Samuels were a little different, since they were franchised a few times each before their teams agreed to that.
P
Polo
Guest
Dunta,
If the Texans want to franchise you every year from now until the end of your career deal with it.
Signed,
Misguided Texan fans
If the Texans want to franchise you every year from now until the end of your career deal with it.
Signed,
Misguided Texan fans
swtbound07
Jackass of Day!
Hope Dunta gets every dime he is asking for. He's an elite secondary player, a hard hitter, and our team is DEFINITELY worse without him. The NFL is a business. Take it for all you can.
No way is he an elite secondary player.
He had his chance to make some serious money. He blew it. Deal with the repercusions.
D-rob will give us his best shot next year,and we'll see what the market thinks
his value is after that ? He may whine, but he'll also perfrom to his best ability or its money out of his own pocket by way of his next contract, and as long as we hold the FA-card over his head we'll get something for him that's more like a second rounder than a 3rd or 4th rounder if he plays like he seems to think he can.
swtbound07
Jackass of Day!
absolutely he is. If he wasn't thought of as such, we wouldn't have franchised him. He had an injury year. He wasn't getting burnt prior to that. When healthy he averages about 70 tackles and 10 pass deflections. Dude got hurt. Its football. Doesn't take away from his talent.
P
Polo
Guest
This is where I'm at.
If you don't think Dunta is a top CB then you should never have approved of the franchise tag.
I know I'd be pretty upset if we tagged a mediocre player.
Pantherstang84
@rolisrgti06
And if you don't like it get the NFLPA to remove the "franchise tag" clause out of the next CBA.
Kind of disingenous to argue about a contract clause that was bargained for and ratified by an union's rank and file.
Even pre-injury, he was a slightly above average starter. A solid 2nd CB, but not a lock down corner.
Agreed...and if the reports are true, he was offered a deal that would compensate him as such. We aren't as good without him - but what can the Texans do if he won't agree to a reasonable contract? $23M guaranteed, especially under the circumstances coming off a career threatening injury, is a great deal.
P
Polo
Guest
Texans had a chance to get this over and done with by making the contract offer more sweet. They blew it. Now they must deal with the repercusions.
Not sure why so many are taking this personal. It's business. Both sides are posturing/negotiating so that they can do whats best for themselves.
swtbound07
Jackass of Day!
Its not my job to tell you whats reasonable for you to take for your salary. Why do you feel justified telling Dunta what is reasonable? He didn't like the contract, it was unfair to him, so he didn't take it. No need to resent him for it. If the texans want his services, pay him. i GUARANTEE somebody else will.
Sweeter than top 5? How much sweeter do you have go? We had plenty of those issues with the old GM, paying people way more than they deserve just to get them resigned. You can't cripple your team like that. It doesn't help you in the long run.
I take it personal because the guy went on and on about how he loves this city and how much he wants to retire here, then does everything he can to price himself out of town. If you want out, just admit it. Thats why I'm mad. Demeco and OD havnt drug this through the mud, and they are playing at a high level for very little.
Goatcheese
Texan
So why has there been less than zero interest in him? Nobody inquired about his availability. There was no talk about him scheduling visits with people leading up to free agency the way all the other big time guys were. There was no buzz about teams looking to deal picks for him. Nothing.
He needs a reality check. Nobody wants him more than the Texans, and his demands exceed the limit of their desire.
He's greedy. Nobody likes greedy people.
HOU-TEX
Ah, Football!
I don't blame him for wanting the jack. I just think he should've kept it in house instead of giving fans a chance to disparage his name.
In the end, meh, it's between he and the FO. I could care less what he says right now. There's still 2-3 months before camp in order to get deals done. I ain't going to worry about it.
swtbound07
Jackass of Day!
Not true at all. Why trade for somebody so obviously disillusioned with his situation that he'll be a free agent soon? Waste of resources. We are making it clear we don't value his services, and if you think he can't get a big FA contract after f'ing phillip buchanon did, your mad.
Silver Oak
All Pro
Dunta is old school. Time to bring in some fresh young guys as we did this draft, and let him walk either through trade or outright release.
the guy is a cancerous boil on Toro's rear end.
the guy is a cancerous boil on Toro's rear end.
kiwitexansfan
Hall of Fame
Dunta was saying he's a one man business and he is doing what is right for his business.
That's right Dunta is a one man Enron, seriously overvaluing himself with no subtance to back it up.
I hate to say it but Dunta is the one Texans player I have no time for what so ever. I always felt him to be overrated now I just don't like his attitude.
That's right Dunta is a one man Enron, seriously overvaluing himself with no subtance to back it up.
I hate to say it but Dunta is the one Texans player I have no time for what so ever. I always felt him to be overrated now I just don't like his attitude.
GermanTexan
Waterboy
Dunta was a good player and he was a face of the texans 2 years ago. but after his injuries and the robbery in his home he is in the spot to show that he is the same player, he was before... unfortunately i didnt seen it the late games last season... he should be happy to be with the texans, cause if he plays for another team he has to work much more than now to be a starter...
so if he dont stop his selfish business, he should be traded...
so if he dont stop his selfish business, he should be traded...
W
whiskeyrbl
Guest
I really don't think it is to smart of him to be making ultimatums. However if he will report to camp if we promise not to franchise him next year go ahead and make the truce. Where we wan't to be as a team we do not need one of our team leaders to be disgruntled. Get him in camp and if you plan on keeping him get a deal worked out. If not then try to negotiate a trade with someone, but get his butt in, in time for camp.
I think the team has been more than fair. They know he isn't worth the money they offered him, but they made the offer anyway. He turned it down....... coming off the year he had, knowing he has a lot to prove, I can't understand why he would have turned it down.
If he thinks any other team is going to pay him for what he thinks he is going to do in '09, he's off his rocker.
Then to demand a no franchise tag clause in his franchise deal..... tells me he doesn't plan on staying a Houston Texans for the long haul.
& I don't have a problem with that, go where the money is, get it while you can. But the way he is coming across, is like he thinks our FO is being dirty and underhanded, and I don't like that.
If he has a great year next year, and plays better than I think he is capable of, then I have no doubt the FO will pay him if they can. They'll franchise him, if they think it will help the team..... If we franchise him again next year, he'll have earned over $20 million guaranteed in a two year period...... what's wrong with that?
threetoedpete
Hall of Fame
I disagree with this a little. what he knows....the team is better with him than with out him. This is his chance for a big pay day. And he is doing what he can to get the most out of his opportunity. The wild card in all of this is Mr McNair....I've never seen this guy screw around with one of the veterans when it came time to pay them. In fact he has been burned by doing this.
The thing we do agree on....and I'm all for a guy getting what he can....9.57
or whatever the exact amount was....is more than fair under the circumstances....a first round guy.....who's had a major injury.....and has never been productive on a level as his draft status suggest he should have been. Mr. McNair has already offered hm the max.....he isn't going to get that any where else. If they can get a third round pick for him for the 2010 draft....do the deal. the Texans have been very fair. Mr. McNair has been quite generous. He holds the corner on the edge better than most CBs. However....he isn't worth the kind of money he is talking. With the new pieces on board....the corner on rushing plays shouldn't be the problem it once was. Robinson's had some bad advise here. And let the record show in the end it was his ego and not his play that got hm run off the roster.
The only problem is you can't cave to threats like this. Once you do it once, you lose all leverage in the future. Next time, the next guy will do the same thing. You have to showw you're strong for the future.
Killer Bee
Waterboy
I don’t care about the posturing on both sides, it’s a business. What concerns me as a fan is that Dunta’s in a contract year. Put up or shut up time. We as fans should reap the benefits of this. Dunta’s not going to turn down $500,000 a week. He has to have a Pro Bowl season to prove his “premium” league value. Hell Yeah!!!
If he’s an All Pro, everybody wins. If he lays an egg, the Texans win
If he’s an All Pro, everybody wins. If he lays an egg, the Texans win
Kulluminatii
Veteran
Good luck with that. You guys have a better chance of getting McFadden off of us then getting Bush
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
Good luck with that. You guys have a better chance of getting McFadden off of us then getting Bush
It's the offseason.
The time when anything is possible to football starved fans.
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
Maybe, just maybe, under the circumstances, we will end up giving the "privilage" to one of those guaranteeing teams to take the bath instead of us.
Pantherstang84
@rolisrgti06
Maybe, just maybe, under the circumstances, we will end up giving the "privilage" to one of those guaranteeing teams to take the bath instead of us.
Absolutely, there is a reason why Charlie Casserly has not had GM gig since he left town.
RTP2110
All Pro
Whether #23 is a top 5 CB is a matter of personal opinion, BUT...
In this situation the Texans are not franchising him because they think he is a top 5 CB. They offered him a multi year contract, which he turned down. At that point they had two options. One was to let him walk as a FA, sign with any team, and receive no compensation. The other was to use that franchise tag to keep him as a Texan. With the franchise tag, the Texans till have all of their options open. They could trade him, let another team sign him as a franchise player and receive a #1 & #3 draft pick, or simply buy more time to agree to a contract with the guy. Regardless of how the value Dunta, they're simply using the tag a tool in this situation.
nothing personal, but we all remember what happened last time you guaranteed us all something
kiwitexansfan
Hall of Fame
Good summation.
The really sadistic part of me would like to see them wait till the very last moment and rescind the franchise tag (in accordance with his wishes) and see him flounder about when he realises there is no cap room left with anyone.
FWIW I think they tagged him not because he is a top 5 CB but because he is/was the best leader on the defense.
If Dunta doesn't sign the franchise contract aren't his options limited? He either signs or sits out a year?
So can really he get a "big FA contract" after sitting on his butt holding out for a year??
RTP2110
All Pro
I keep seeing a lot of folks saying that fans should not be mad at Dunta because this is a business. That's all well and good. I see that side of the argument. But you have to put the shoe on the other foot also. Dunta should not be mad either because it's a business for the Texans too. He has to understand that just like he has the right to hold out for what he feels is fair, the Texans have the same right to do what's best for the team.
Some of you are saying that it's no big deal, players hold out all the time. Well other players get franchised when they don't really want it all the time too. So why is it okay for Dunta to make a big deal out of it? When he turned down the Texans offer, he should have seen the franchise tag coming a mile away. Did he seriously think they were just going to let him walk?
Sure some of the fans here may be overreacting because we have never been through this before. But Dunta is doing the same exact thing.
Some of you are saying that it's no big deal, players hold out all the time. Well other players get franchised when they don't really want it all the time too. So why is it okay for Dunta to make a big deal out of it? When he turned down the Texans offer, he should have seen the franchise tag coming a mile away. Did he seriously think they were just going to let him walk?
Sure some of the fans here may be overreacting because we have never been through this before. But Dunta is doing the same exact thing.
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
Rather, if he sits out the year, he may as well be holding his butt for fear that he will lose it.
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
If the Texans do that........NO compensation. If he sits all season, he doesn't count against the roster or the cap. They can then again slap a non-exclusive Tag on him next year if they feel that he has any significant residual value left. Then, he'll really be screwed...........one year older.........one year slower.............one more year with a blank of playing experience.............one year further away from answering the questions surrounding his recovery and performance level................and, of course, one year poorer..............by $10 million ++ (remember jersey, etc., royalties.) Go ahead.........Make My Day.
Silver Oak
All Pro
I like your style.
Good plan. It would also finally stamp "false" on the theory that free agents want to come to Houston because it's such a great place to play.
There is so much vituperative posting going on, I thought I'd try to dig down to the core issue. The tough talk seems to be building on itself rather than on anything Dunta and the the Texans are doing.
Dunta has been defined by many as a self-centered, greedy player based on a couple of things. His turning down of $23M guaranteed and his refusal to sign his franchise contract.
First, why do many think Dunta is a greedy egomaniac? Because he would be stupid not to take the $23M. The problem is, there is a great deal of doubt about the existence of that offer. It was reported by one source and wasn't confirmed by Dunta or the Texans. If that offer did actually exist, Dunta may have signed it and everybody would be happy. However, people find it easier to believe that Dunta is a stupid, greedy player than believe that an unconfirmed story, from a source that is often wrong, is in error.
Throwing that out since it may not be true, we are left with the fact that Dunta won't sign his franchise deal. However, if you look at what he says it is is that he will sign it if the team agrees not to franchise him again next year. That seems likes a legitimate compromise, especially since the first reason to find Dunta unreasonable, the $23M offer, didn't exist.
That leaves us with bashing Dunta for bringing this to the press. From what I can tell, this is again about his supposed complaining about the $23M. I don't understand why he'd bring that number to the press. It seems that would be more of a team leak since it makes Dunta look bad. And again, I won't be surprised when that $23M guaranteed turns out to be an erroneous report.
========
Beyond all that, I am still amazed at how people's opinions of players can vary so wildly back and forth. He was loved and missed last year, and he's hated and fed up with this year. He's still the same guy who, as outlined above, hasn't really done all that much of what is being credited to him. I'm surprised even though I should know better by now by statements such as those that are chronically weak secondary would somehow be better without its best player and leader. Dunta still is that leader for the players; it is only the fans that see him as a cancer
Sometimes I wish I could get a little Winston Smith to put in my head too.
Dunta has been defined by many as a self-centered, greedy player based on a couple of things. His turning down of $23M guaranteed and his refusal to sign his franchise contract.
First, why do many think Dunta is a greedy egomaniac? Because he would be stupid not to take the $23M. The problem is, there is a great deal of doubt about the existence of that offer. It was reported by one source and wasn't confirmed by Dunta or the Texans. If that offer did actually exist, Dunta may have signed it and everybody would be happy. However, people find it easier to believe that Dunta is a stupid, greedy player than believe that an unconfirmed story, from a source that is often wrong, is in error.
Throwing that out since it may not be true, we are left with the fact that Dunta won't sign his franchise deal. However, if you look at what he says it is is that he will sign it if the team agrees not to franchise him again next year. That seems likes a legitimate compromise, especially since the first reason to find Dunta unreasonable, the $23M offer, didn't exist.
That leaves us with bashing Dunta for bringing this to the press. From what I can tell, this is again about his supposed complaining about the $23M. I don't understand why he'd bring that number to the press. It seems that would be more of a team leak since it makes Dunta look bad. And again, I won't be surprised when that $23M guaranteed turns out to be an erroneous report.
========
Beyond all that, I am still amazed at how people's opinions of players can vary so wildly back and forth. He was loved and missed last year, and he's hated and fed up with this year. He's still the same guy who, as outlined above, hasn't really done all that much of what is being credited to him. I'm surprised even though I should know better by now by statements such as those that are chronically weak secondary would somehow be better without its best player and leader. Dunta still is that leader for the players; it is only the fans that see him as a cancer
Sometimes I wish I could get a little Winston Smith to put in my head too.
Call it postering or whatever, but if you cave in so early to a players demand, every player in the future we try to franchise will do the same thing. You can't cut your nuts off and have any kind of negotiating leverage in the future. You have to hold a hard line, and let things work out in its own way. I always look at teams like New England, Philly, ect... They know what they're doing. What would they do? Tell him tough ****. They don't play these games, and they do ok.
Kaiser Toro
Native Mod
Let's not forget about Dunta's agent Jason Chayut in this whole mess, as this is his MO based on previous contractual negotiations for his players in similar situations.
I'm not familiar with the agent's MO. Is it the holding out of the franchised player, turnng down great offers (if they exist), leaks to the press, or what?
Kaiser Toro
Native Mod
Just rehash the Deion Branch episode and take a peek at Sheldon Brown's current situation.
Well, I'm a Christian; so, after putting much thought into this, I say they just torture him.
Interesting. I had considered riding him out of town on a rail as one alternate solution to this problem. I knew someone here must have a rail. Anyway, while doing my Goo diligence, I learned that being ridden out on a rail is just the final act of a tar and feathering; it doesn't stand alone. I thought tar and feathering was a little extreme - it's not like he's a Tory tax collector!* I didn't want to break the entire process in two, so I dropped the idea. However, now that I've mentioned this I'm afraid it may gain some momentum. Everyone please be aware that the proper tar to use is pine tar, not some hot petrochemical goo. The point is to humiliate, not cause permanent injury.
* I'm sure someone will be able to build a chain of reasoning that Dunta is in fact a Tory tax collector. I'll tell you right now I'm not buying it.
Texan JBZ
Da Sip's Finest
The report came out from John McClain. I'm not saying that McClain is always right, but he's pretty accurate. And if anyone knows what's going on over Texans headquarters, it's McClain. I think he's the one that came out with the Demeco info about the Texans offering him an extension that would make him one the Top 5 paid MLBs in the NFL. And McClain isn't known to be a guy with any sort of axe to grind or a plain d-bag like Justice. He's probably got pretty reliable sources inside the Texans that let him know what is going on because he's built a good reputation with the team.
My problem isn't with the money. I feel like he was offered a more than fair deal considering his situation, but if he feels he's worth more then that's his perogative. My problem is the way he's handled his situation. In this current economic climate when regular hard working people are losing jobs everywhere, it's not a good idea to come out and complain about feeling wronged for turning downs millions of guaranteed dollars. People are going to look at him like the bad guy and that may not even be the case. But he had to know that handling things in the media was not going to be a good idea. He chose to do it anyway, so he has to deal with the lashback from the public. Plus, we're fans! We're allowed to be as fickle as we want to be.
El Tejano
Hall of Fame
To me, it isn't about the fact he turned away the money. It's about the fact that he's failing to realize that there was a time when this organization had to make a decision on this guy and despite the potential career ending injury, and despite the risk of a recurring injury, and despite he was only going to be able to play 8 games at best, we decided to keep him. If we would've let him go then, his value would've been zilch to other teams. However we stuck by him because we had faith in him. Then we get this woe is me attitude from him.
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
KT brings out an interesting point. However, it's also important to understand that agents cannot do anything that the player does not allow, e.g. Demeco. Bad advice, unquestioned, has screwed many a player.
It seems that Chayut's approach (in line with what I believe KT was trying to zero in on) has changed very little from his neophyte days.
His first "mess" involved WR Deion Branch (2002 2nd round pick of the Pats):
I found this interesting 2006 Pat's message board discussion that relates to Branch's/Chayut's "negotiation." Note the list of players that Chayut had under contract at the time. [LINK]
Doesn't look like Chayut has matured much in his tactics...........or his results. Keep in mind that Branch wasn't coming off a major injury with all of its questions........nor any injury history up to that time for that matter.
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Please stop. You're bringing a tear to my eye. The Texans are so altruistic! That must be why they've had so many washed up, eleemosynary players on the roster in the past.
Or they figured that the risk/reward of the Dunta scenario you just outlined gave them the best probability of having a good CB this season.