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[Chron.com] Dunta outlines terms
- Thread starter Mike Kerns
- Start date
The reason people turned on Dunta is because he is publically complaining about 10 million dollars for 1 season of playing a game.
He plays a game for his job. Many people can't find jobs at all. He is getting paid 10 million dollars to do it this year, and its not good enough for him.
For better or worse, right or wrong, thats the heart of the matter.
Personally, I think its fair to turn on him. The franchise tag is a legitimate means agreed upon by the players union and owners union. If the players are going to refuse to honor it, then they need to get it removed from future CBAs. Otherwise deal with it.
Its the same as the non-contact in the OTAs. If the teams are going to ignore it, it needs to be removed. Otherwise abide by it.
If I agree to work on Saturdays in the event my employer really needs me, then refuse to come in on a Saturday because I think its not fair, theres no real basis for my complaint. Same with Dunta. He agreed to the franchise tag when he signed his rookie contract in the NFL. If he doesn't like the franchise tag, maybe he should go play in some league other than the NFL
He plays a game for his job. Many people can't find jobs at all. He is getting paid 10 million dollars to do it this year, and its not good enough for him.
For better or worse, right or wrong, thats the heart of the matter.
Personally, I think its fair to turn on him. The franchise tag is a legitimate means agreed upon by the players union and owners union. If the players are going to refuse to honor it, then they need to get it removed from future CBAs. Otherwise deal with it.
Its the same as the non-contact in the OTAs. If the teams are going to ignore it, it needs to be removed. Otherwise abide by it.
If I agree to work on Saturdays in the event my employer really needs me, then refuse to come in on a Saturday because I think its not fair, theres no real basis for my complaint. Same with Dunta. He agreed to the franchise tag when he signed his rookie contract in the NFL. If he doesn't like the franchise tag, maybe he should go play in some league other than the NFL
Does the collective bargaining agreement say the player must accept the franchise tag and sign the contract immediately?
In signing a franchise agreement, the player is accepting the risk of having no further compensation if he has a career ending injury. If Dunta is worth $15M guaranteed (number made up for reference only) on a long term deal, then signing the franchise tag is putting $6M at risk.
I agree the core of these attacks on Dunta are based on people who don't make that much money looking at it from their perspective. Most people see it as Dunta being bad though, not that their perspective slants things.
Trying to build a "factual" case of Dunta's wrong doing to explain the fans' visceral response doesn't work for me. I guess it is time for me to accept it and move on.
In signing a franchise agreement, the player is accepting the risk of having no further compensation if he has a career ending injury. If Dunta is worth $15M guaranteed (number made up for reference only) on a long term deal, then signing the franchise tag is putting $6M at risk.
I agree the core of these attacks on Dunta are based on people who don't make that much money looking at it from their perspective. Most people see it as Dunta being bad though, not that their perspective slants things.
Trying to build a "factual" case of Dunta's wrong doing to explain the fans' visceral response doesn't work for me. I guess it is time for me to accept it and move on.
Blake
MMQB
I dont agree with that. So is everyone that is mad at Dunta mad at all NFL players that have a contract dispute, or just the ones who play for their team?
Ok lets say he agreed to the franchise tag rule like every other player does. He agreed that the Team could place the franchise tag on him. He did not agree to be forced to play under it. He has the right to negotiate his future.
Its not the same. And the fact that you compare the two is laughable. Yes, Dunta positioning himself to get a 25 million dollar bonus next year is the same as you working Saturdays...
Dunta is not making the rules or forcing them to change the agreements that were made well before he entered the league. He is negotiating. He hasn't done anything wrong yet.
So your best idea for Dunta is to go to Canada and play football? Gotcha.
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
Hmmm. Let me see, now..................someone gets injured on the job or otherwise...............how many get compensated by disability insurance &/or litigation for $10 million..............Hmmm, why don't we just take that one out of the complaint box.
Blake
MMQB
What is a fair deal? Was it what John McClain reported? Did John even know what the contract looked like? Was it incentive based? Was there an injury clause?
Really what does John or whomever is reporting the contract amount really know about it?
Many contract disputes are quite fair. A guy like Demeco making 100k a year is being underpaid. I get that. Its when someone is complaining about being offered 10 million that I start to have problems. I can't speak for everyone, but I can say that when players refuse to play for the franchise tag it makes me mad. Most nfl players know not to go public with their money because its bad PR. When we are in a major recession, complaining about only getting 10 million just sounds really bad
If he agreed to have the franchise tag placed on him, why is he going public complaining about how unfair it was that the Texans sprung this on him? He has the right to negotiate, but the Texans have the right not to budge either. Sure he has the right not to play, but I think everyone realizes this is a worse move for Drob than for the Texans. Im really not sure what your point with this was, thoughSuper Mario said:
Personally, Im getting pretty annoyed with people saying my comments are "laughable." If you can't see the comparison, fine, disagree with it. But don't try and be the big bad internet poster and belittle other people. Its highly annoying and takes away from whatever your real argument is. Obviously I didn't intend for the analogy to be an exact comparison. It was a generalization. When Dunta signs his first NFL contract and accepts the representation of the NFLPU, he is agreeing to function under the CBA. The CBA says that teams can place the franchise tag on players. The stipulation is that they get paid as a top 5 player. There is no limitation to how many times a team can put the tag on someone, but they get raises each season if the team does it too many times. He agreed to these rules when he agreed to the CBA. Its the same as me agreeing to any conditions when I sign a contract with my employer. He has the right to not play, but he does not have the right to claim that the franchise tag is unfair.Super Mario said:
He did things the wrong way when he brought this into the public domain. As far as I see it, thats his only real mistake so far. Technically he hasn't done anything wrong, but I won't cheer for a guy who I believe only cares about the money. I'm sure there are 100x more players that only care about the money, but since they don't spit it in my face with public complaints, I can remain blissfully ignorant. He could have kept this between himself and the Texans and hopefully gotten everything worked out and I would have never known the difference. But to bring it all out in the open and make a big deal of not participating in workouts/games/etc just loses fans and support.Super Mario said:
I was obviously kidding with this, and Im guessing you know that. The point was that if Dunta can't live by the rules of the NFL, there are other career options available to him (again, obviously being light hearted here)Super Mario said:
After franchising him for around three years. Also, he at least did something. Dunta is trying to make money off of being an extreamly average CB.
Texan JBZ
Da Sip's Finest
People have their feelings about McClain one way or the other. The fact reasons though that he is one of the best NFL sportswriters in the country, and definitely the best that Houston has to offer. McClain reported that the Texans offered Dunta an offer similar to those of Kelvin Hayden, Chris Gamble, and Cory Webster. Basically, the team offered him a contract that is in line with CBs in his same performance class. If he thought he would get paid like Nnamdi, Nate, or Champ, then that's his fault for thinking foolishly. John is not the type of guy that's going to come out and make comments like that if he doesn't have a good amount of facts to back it up with. As far as the specifics of the contract offer, no one but Dunta and the team know for sure. I know if I were negotiating from the Texans side that it would have an injury buyout clause stipulation.
P
Polo
Guest
I think if Dunta were on those Patriot teams he'd be looked at in a different light.
Ole Miss Texan
Hall of Fame
The Texans used a "non exclusive" franchise tag on Dunta. What this means is that IF Dunta agrees to play for the Texans, he has a guaranteed salary of the Top 5 CB's (based on last years' figures) which is roughly $10MM. However, the key to the non-exclusive tag is that Dunta has the ability to negotiate a contract with another team. Right now, he is free to negotiate with 32 teams in the NFL. If he signs an offer sheet with another team, the Texans have the right to match those terms. If the Texans don't match the terms and lose Dunta, they are entitled to two 1st round draft picks (the amount of compensation can be negotiated).
If Dunta does not sign with any other team, then my understanding is that he's a Texan. If he signs the deal, he's guaranteed the entire amount. If he elects not to, then he doesn't get paid for each game he misses. Don't agree to it and don't play... ya don't get paid.
If Dunta does not sign with any other team, then my understanding is that he's a Texan. If he signs the deal, he's guaranteed the entire amount. If he elects not to, then he doesn't get paid for each game he misses. Don't agree to it and don't play... ya don't get paid.
Blake
MMQB
Ole Miss Texan
Hall of Fame
Now for my opinion. If Dunta wants to negotiate a better deal, by all means I support him in that, it doesn't bother me and it's part of the game/business. I would prefer that be kept private. Now I don't know if Dunta came out and wanted to tell everyone or if it were the reporters asking and he was just being honest.
What makes me the most upset are Dunta's comments about Rick Smith. Dunta has said something to the effect of, "he lied to me. He said they wouldn't franchise tag me and they did." I think Dunta is a straight forward guy and his perception of this is why he's really upset. That's my thoughts, others may think he just wants more money. I think that's part of it but I think he just wants to be "respected" and not "lied" to. That's part A. Part B is that I find it very hard to believe that Rick Smith said, "Dunta, I will not place the franchise tag on you." I think Dunta either didn't understand what Smith was saying, his agents got him confused, both or something of the likes. What I can totally see Rick Smith saying is, "Dunta, I feel confident we can come to a long term deal that is both beneficial for you and the team. I don't think the franchise tag will be necessary, don't see us having to use it and would prefer not to." Dunta/his agent, in my opinion, probably took that as they weren't going to tag him. We don't know what was and wasn't said but I cannot see Smith saying they wouldn't tag him unless other conditions were met.
Now about Dunta's contract. Sure maybe he was offered $23MM guaranteed. What I don't know are the specifics of the deal. Dunta could be fine with the Gtd amount and everything he just may not like how the deal was structured. The salary portion could be manipulated any which way. I'll reserve my thoughts on the actual contract when we know the actual contract.
What makes me the most upset are Dunta's comments about Rick Smith. Dunta has said something to the effect of, "he lied to me. He said they wouldn't franchise tag me and they did." I think Dunta is a straight forward guy and his perception of this is why he's really upset. That's my thoughts, others may think he just wants more money. I think that's part of it but I think he just wants to be "respected" and not "lied" to. That's part A. Part B is that I find it very hard to believe that Rick Smith said, "Dunta, I will not place the franchise tag on you." I think Dunta either didn't understand what Smith was saying, his agents got him confused, both or something of the likes. What I can totally see Rick Smith saying is, "Dunta, I feel confident we can come to a long term deal that is both beneficial for you and the team. I don't think the franchise tag will be necessary, don't see us having to use it and would prefer not to." Dunta/his agent, in my opinion, probably took that as they weren't going to tag him. We don't know what was and wasn't said but I cannot see Smith saying they wouldn't tag him unless other conditions were met.
Now about Dunta's contract. Sure maybe he was offered $23MM guaranteed. What I don't know are the specifics of the deal. Dunta could be fine with the Gtd amount and everything he just may not like how the deal was structured. The salary portion could be manipulated any which way. I'll reserve my thoughts on the actual contract when we know the actual contract.
Blake
MMQB
Rep!
I think Rick said that he told Dunta's agent that he would not franchise him if he could avoid it. And the agent told Dunta that he would not franchise him. I don't think Rick ever directly said to Dunta that he would not franchise him so I don't like Dunta calling him a liar. But I also know that some GM's can be pretty underhanded about this "business".
P
Polo
Guest
How could they have kept this private?
Maybe not private, but there are a lot of players who jus tdon't talk to the media about stuff like this. Dunta could have said "hey my agent is in charge, and things will work out the way they are supposed to"
I was listening to mike and mike the other day and he said that one of the #1 rules in sports is "dont talk about the money" because it only leads to fan alienation.
I guess this really is the crux of the matter. Dunta could be at fault, the agent, or Rick. Unfortunately, we'll probably never know.
The main reason this all bothers me so mcuh is that it reminds me of the business side of the NFL. Its much more pleasant just thinking the guys love the game and thats the only reason they are out there
Ole Miss Texan
Hall of Fame
I just mean that I don't like when a player openly talks about contract negotiations with the media/fan base. What always happens is that player alienates himself to the fans, Dunta Robinson case in point. I'd prefer them go Demeco's route where it's kept "more" private. I think it's fine to say that you want to negotiate a new deal, or you're in the process of it, but that's it.
I want a player to say, "the specifics are between my agent, the team, and myself. I'd rather not discuss the details or any rumors. I look forward to continuing my career in Houston." The more a player makes his feelings public the less good he's actually doing. It's not a bargaining chip to use against his team. It just pisses the team off and you run the risk of pissing off the fanbase.
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
Maybe not private, but there are a lot of players who jus tdon't talk to the media about stuff like this. Dunta could have said "hey my agent is in charge, and things will work out the way they are supposed to"
I was listening to mike and mike the other day and he said that one of the #1 rules in sports is "dont talk about the money" because it only leads to fan alienation.[/QUOTE]
I guess that makes me an "alien."
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
Evidently, this is Chayut's MO..........turning down good money.
Follow this KFFL forum discussion........classic.http://forums.kffl.com/archive/index.php/t-180440.html
Follow this KFFL forum discussion........classic.http://forums.kffl.com/archive/index.php/t-180440.html
RipTraxx
Free Agent
Im willing to be that if he had gone that way he'd have a deal done already.
As far as we know, it was someone from the Texans organization that leaked the contract details. Just because McClain allowed his source anonymity doesn't make the Texans any more honorable than Robinson.
I'd bet willing to bet that the Texans would be just as firm in their estimation of Dunta's worth to the team, regardless of what Robinson said or didn't say to the Chronic.
Texans_Chick
Utopian Dreamer
Yeah, I talked about this in more depth in this blog post in February:
A Cautionary Tale about Dunta Robinson's Agent
Texans_Chick
Utopian Dreamer
What's interesting about the contract talk is that the Chronicle article that talks about the conditions that Dunta wants for a deal never mentions Dunta actually saying those words. We don't know the question that was asked.
And the Houston Texans article on the very same conversation has a totally different feel.
I discuss this here:
What's the real story on Dunta Robinson?
It's peculiar.
Specnatz
Hall of Fame
I have said many times how I do not like it when articles are written and they use quotes from a source but never tell exactly what the question is. This how things are taken out of context and then said person is ripped by the media for playing the out of context card.
I know it is difficult for journalist because of the limited space in an article. I think they could easily fill some of the blog space they have by going even more in depth than write half of the junk they do write in a blog.
Steph you have always been one of the better writers when doing a story to get in the questions you or someone else asked so the reader knows what is going on instead of only getting half of the picture.
Texans_Chick
Utopian Dreamer
Thank you.
Unfortunately, there is no transcript anywhere of what Robinson said in its entirety. Space limitations certainly are a problem in print media, including just plain old readability.
But it was interesting to me that there is no direct quote in the Chron article of Dunta Robinson saying I want a Fat Albert deal. And then the Houston Texans.com article has a totally different flavor to it.
The contrast was really interesting to me. It's fascinating to me how different people can see the same event and report on it differently--not just in sports but in all news.
I tried to point out earlier in this thread that most of the vitriol was based on posters building on each other's posts rather than on anything Dunta has said or any confirmed facts from other sources.
It didn't take too well; good luck with this attempt. I just put the dots out there, while you've gone through the effort to connect them.
It didn't take too well; good luck with this attempt. I just put the dots out there, while you've gone through the effort to connect them.
Specnatz
Hall of Fame
Trying to talk to someone in the heat of the moment usually fails. If you wait a day or so and then use reason you are going to find you are more successful.
This is a business and he is taking the business approach most of these NFL contracts is funny money and if the player gets hurt they are thrown to the side like a chicken bone. I don't blame Dunta at all trying to get what the value of a corner at his age who is very good in man coverage. Dunta would make the pro-bowl if we had a better pass rush, the texans sucked at getting to the QB last season other than Mario. I think that Dunta really wants to be in Houston but all you guys have to remember this is a business and just like the Texans are looking out for there intrest so should the players.
Texan_Bill
Hall of Fame
I don't blame Dunta for asking for amount $ "X"
OTOH, I have no problems with the Texans making a business decision to not sign him at amount $ "X".
Next off-season, if the two sides can't aggree on amount $ "Y", Dunta is free to leave. No hard feelings, no bitching and moaning.
OTOH, I have no problems with the Texans making a business decision to not sign him at amount $ "X".
Next off-season, if the two sides can't aggree on amount $ "Y", Dunta is free to leave. No hard feelings, no bitching and moaning.
Texans_Chick
Utopian Dreamer
Here is the reason for the difference between the HT.com article and the Chronicle article:
Interesting. Hard to know how emphatic Dunta was about wanting a Fat Albert-type deal if you can't see his direct quotes.
Interesting. Hard to know how emphatic Dunta was about wanting a Fat Albert-type deal if you can't see his direct quotes.
Kaiser Toro
Native Mod
He did indicate he wants what he deserves. I could not agree more, because he has not earned Chris Gamble money even prior to the injury.
I agree that he has been a leader in some form for this team, but that has done nothing, but be a catalyst in the court of public opinion for Carr being run out of town.
It has always been my opinion that he is a solid CB, but never have felt comfortable with him on an island and even less so after the injury until he proves it on the field. He has that opportunity this year by accepting the Franchise tag and making himself one of the top 5 paid players at his position and setting himself up for the long term contract that he actually "deserves."
TexanBacker93
Veteran
Let's say you don't cave and he waits until the Monday before the season opener to show up. WIth a new DC and new schemes he probably ends up inactive for that first game. Maybe the first couple of games. If the Texans start off slowly again and they end up out of the playoffs that can mean lost jobs for Smith and Kubiak and the Texans starting over. I'm not suggesting the team can't win without Dunta, but I think he improves their chances.
Just because they cave now doesn't mean other players will do the same. Plus, others may be more likely to accept a fair offer. I have faith in the drafting ability to get a better cover corner in next year's draft if they lose him.
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Monkey see, monkey do. Of course they will. I just don't think there is a huge difference in Reeves/Bennett, and Dunta/Reeves. It's not like we are having Nambi Asmamsmasmasmas hold out. He isn't a lock down corner, he's an average player who had a horrible injury. I wouldn't do it.
Ole Miss Texan
Hall of Fame
Speaking of... I think he and Amobi Okoye have become fairly close friends. Nnamdi's contract is a 3-year deal worth $45MM. The first 2 years are worth $29MM and are fully guaranteed. The 3rd year is a club option but they would have to pay him the franchise figure for the QUARTERback position or $17MM, whichever is greater. If the Raiders don't exercise that option he CANNOT be franchised and becomes a free agent. The franchise figure for QB's this year was $14.6MM so it's likely that his salary for 2011 could be greater than the $17MM.
So... let's say Dunta plays here during the '09 season. Then we franchise him again but essentially trade him for whatever we can get in 2010. We'd go into that draft with an extra pick. Go the season with Bennett/Reeves as our starters and then sign Nnamdi Asmamsmamsams to a deal in 2011.
ChampionTexan
Hall of Fame
And that's a two edge sword for Dunta. Barring an agreement with the Texans before then, Dunta's going to be playing for a contract throughout next year. Given the fact he's still in the process of proving he's recovered from the injury, combined with the new/modified defense he'll be playing in, an extended holdout wouldn't seem to be in Dunta's best interest either - whether he wants to be with the Texans beyond '09 or not.
As with so many of these things, this may end up being a high stakes game of chicken, with lose/lose being a possible outcome.
edo783
Hall of Fame
Then one week into TC, you pull the offer. Save the 10 mill and pick up the best DB you can and then go with what ya got. He is then sitting with his thumbs up his butt with the clubs having already spent all their money. He will VERY likely be getting EXACTLY what he will be worth at that time.
Pantherstang84
@rolisrgti06
edo783
Hall of Fame
First of all there is a major difference between good guys and being door mats. By all accounts they have made him an offer that was in the top 5 of CBs and he chose to turn it down believing he is more than a top 5 CB. In truth he has very likely NEVER even been a top 5 CB on his best days. Now the club chose to make him an offer substantially above the quality of his play and when he is damaged goods and may never reach even average CB level of play. Then when he turned down the 23 mill guaranteed, they then franchised him for 9.9 million guaranteed and that was for some reason an insult. So, if he doesn't like the offers, doesn't sign his offer, doesn't show up at TC then cut bait and put him a position to see what he really is worth. The club paid him all the way through his career threatening injury, made him an offer well above his true value and then gave him the opportunity for a very substantial amount of money and all he can do is snivel. If he wants to play then act like it. Otherwise, get your butt out of town. If the club had been playing hardball and giving him real low offers, I would have a much different opinion, but they have been more than fair through the whole thing and all he can do is spit in their face.
Perhaps I'm wrong but wouldn't you be rolling the dice that one of the 31 other teams (or however many would be in the mkt for a starting caliber CB) won't make moves to clear cap space and pick him up.
Dunta could come out with the contract he wants - or close to it - and we'd be stuck with whatever leftover CB that was still available at TC time.
...not to mention looking like petty, vindictive buttheads to the other guys in our locker room and to any future F/As we might be interested in.
the phrase "cut off one's nose to spite one's face" comes to mind
By one (unconfirmed) account anyway, with no details.
That's enough to make it a fact set in stone around here though.
There's also a difference between being good guys and a vindictive jackass of a team. Maybe there is something in between good guy and jackass the Texans can be: they can negotiate in good faith, which I'm sure they are doing already. It's mainly fans that seem to take this rather routine contract negotiation as a personal affront, not the Texans.
edo783
Hall of Fame
OK, a question or 2:
Why do you think DR is upset about being franchised? He said he was told he wouldn't be. Everyone raise their hand that thinks that he or anyone with a lick of common sense believe that? Perhaps it was just an honest misunderstanding, but I think it was something that was taken out of context and just run with as a negotiating tool.
Why does he want the team to guarantee not to franchise him again?
If the offer isn't what was portrayed in the press, who thinks both DR and his agent wouldn't have been complaining in the press about it. IMO, it had to be at least very close to what had been reported or they would have been calling it out big time.
This guy doesn't want to be here and the only way he will consider it is if we get stupid with the money, otherwise he wants out. If we give top level money for a at best 2nd level talent, it is a bad move and an even poorer precedent.
Why do you think DR is upset about being franchised? He said he was told he wouldn't be. Everyone raise their hand that thinks that he or anyone with a lick of common sense believe that? Perhaps it was just an honest misunderstanding, but I think it was something that was taken out of context and just run with as a negotiating tool.
Why does he want the team to guarantee not to franchise him again?
If the offer isn't what was portrayed in the press, who thinks both DR and his agent wouldn't have been complaining in the press about it. IMO, it had to be at least very close to what had been reported or they would have been calling it out big time.
This guy doesn't want to be here and the only way he will consider it is if we get stupid with the money, otherwise he wants out. If we give top level money for a at best 2nd level talent, it is a bad move and an even poorer precedent.
I don't know the answers to these questions any more than anyone else. I'm OK with that; I don't feel the need to make assumptions and state them as facts. Heck, I think the franchise tag is a good offer he should accept. I also acknowledge that the franchise tag usually carries risk for the player so tagged.
What I don't believe is that Dunta is evil personified, or that the Texans should do anything to actively screw him and get THAT reputation with players around the league.
Pantherstang84
@rolisrgti06
He may not be. The actions of him and his agent (who has a history of the very same tactics) show a different side however. At least Demeco wised up fired his bonehead agent (hired another one) and went back to work. That #10 mil that Dunta is turning his nose at could go along way and sewing up Demeco and OD to long term deals. Take care of 2 Pro Bowlers at the expense of one.
If he really wants to stay in Houston, I would like to have Dunta back under the following conditions:
1. Shut up!
2. Sign the tender and get your butt back in town. You have a new defense getting installed. You need to learn it like everyone else.
3. Get your agent back in town and tell him to not planning on leaving until a deal gets worked out.
P
Polo
Guest
I'm at the point where I don't really care what happens and would really like to not see this thread everyday...
If they sign him...hooray...If they don't....hooray...
whatever....
If they sign him...hooray...If they don't....hooray...
whatever....