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When do we end the Kareem experiment?

Kareem is just horrible. After watching the game last night I truly believe that Brice McCain should be our number 2 CB. He is only one inch shorter and eight pounds lighter than #25. McCain played really well and made a hell of a play on Garcon if I remember correctly. Also, where the hell is Brandon Harris? He really must suck if he can't get on the field. They targeted Kareem Jackson and it worked.
 
What is funny is that Kareem tried to stick his arm in there against Wayne on the game-winning TD, just like Kareem did against Julio Jones.

Only difference is that Wayne did not D-R-O-P the pass like Jones did. Yeah, that's right: Eff what the official NFL stats say, Julio Jones D-R-O-P-P-E-D the ball and Wayne didn't. Result: One was a failed game-winning TD and the other was caught and won the game against us.

What else is funny: The Colts threw that pass to (a) The same spot that Matt Ryan did, and (b) against the same CB. Vance Joseph should have his ass FIRED for getting abused like that TWICE. It's HIS secondary, and he's got to know that teams are going to try to go deep on KJ and into that corner of the end zone...because Kareem has ZERO deep ball skills. He just can't do it. He has no ability to position himself and make a play on the ball, he just sticks his arm in there and looks up at the rafters of the ceiling and prays for help.

What NFL o-coord is going to target KJ on the last play of the game? All of them. Yet there he is: Alone and against a good WR in the corner of the end zone. Rinse, repeat. It's so effing simple, I can't believe it keeps happening. This is the muther-effing NFL and THIS **** keeps happening to us. It makes me sick to my stomach.

The last thing that is funny: Guys STILL riding Kareem's jock strap. This thread doesn't exist if Kareem is holding down his job properly. Where is this type of thread about JJ Watt? Brooks Reed? On and on and on....

Same old s____, different game. Different results, too. I haven't seen a guy get defended to this length, for having all this talent and "good work ethic," and no consistently GOOD results on the field since DAVID CARR. His curse lingers.
 
Anybody else notice Molden is starting for the Pats?

I've noticed that while he still stinks it appearrs that he's better than KJ.
 
76Texan said:
I hope you're not serious.

Personally, I am serious, because I've heard an NFL coach talk about it, and I have seen segment in a playbook talk about it.
It wasn't elaborated, but it was clear that you cannot attempt to locate the ball all the time.
There are times to play the earlobe, and the eyes of the receiver.

Even Mayock talked about how JJo tried to peek to locate the ball and got burned by Steve Smith in the Panthers game.
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Did you read my post? When jjo gave it up to smith, smith did show or turn, he was running. Joseph tried to locate the ball against a speed guy. Kareem has shown time after time like jacquez reeves that he doesn't ever read the wr hands or helmet. At least reeves would play the hands and break up the pass. Jackson can't do either and I don't need mayock to tell me. I can get the coaches copy and watch the guy.

I didn't say anywhere kareem hasn't improved, but he's still splitting time with a safety prospect like allen. If he were as good on the tape as you like to point out, he wouldn't split time with allen. In the offseason, they need a cb opposite joseph, no 2 ways about it. They're hiding the 2nd cb whether that's allen or jackson.
 
76Texan said:
You need to bring it to Wade Phillips.
He's the one who not only defended, but also praised Kareem Jackson in one of the recent press conference:

Conscientious (hard worker) and talented.

It's somewhere on the HoustonTexans.com website.
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Wade Phillips is also the one that keeps splitting the time up with Allen and Jackson. Just admit Jackson sucks and has zero ball skills and save a little face here. Had he not been a 1st round pick I doubt he would still be getting on the field at this point.
 
thunderkyss said:
Next year, people will be talking about how much Kareem has improved. Instead of saying 76Texan was right in the first place.

Kinda like Meyers. Two years ago he was talking about how Meyers was not playing as bad as "everyone" said he was, & that he was actually one of, if not, our best linemen.
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More likely he will be bench fodder for some other team that thinks that maybe they can get him to live up to his potential because of where he was drafted.
 
thunderkyss said:
Next year, people will be talking about how much Kareem has improved. Instead of saying 76Texan was right in the first place.

Kinda like Meyers. Two years ago he was talking about how Meyers was not playing as bad as "everyone" said he was, & that he was actually one of, if not, our best linemen.
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you and 76 make a cute KJ couple, it will be ashame to see this romance end when KJ is gone.
 
steelbtexan said:
Anybody else notice Molden is starting for the Pats?

I've noticed that while he still stinks it appearrs that he's better than KJ.
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First off, Merry Christmas to everybody!

Secondly, I will try to counter as many posts as I can before I have to get off the board.

Molden took McCourty's place in week 11 (KC) and 12 (PHI) when D.Mc suffered a mild shoulder injury.
I didn't watch those games, but the fact that Molden went back to the bench ought to tell us what we need to know.
(Looks like VY had 400 yards passing in week 13).

I have documented how McCourty had struggled this year when Belichik started treating him like a normal CB and doesn't protect him like last year.
Well, McCourty continued to struggle when he came back.
I watched 2 more games and he gave up all short of routes and a ton of yards (short, intermediate, and long.)
He also allowed a TD against Orvlosky (who went off for 353 yards.)
Against the Skins he gave up a couple of TD passes by Grossman.
So if we want to talk about regressing, this is the guy!

On the other hand, as we talked about rookie CBs, I had mentioned how Patrick Peterson suffered the same fate as Jackson even though his (Peterson's) safety help has been better.
I watched the Cowboys game, and Peterson was "abused" by Dez Bryant (including another TD given up by PP) all game long.

In 8 games that I've watched PP, he had already given up more TDs than Jackson (16-game rookie season).

I think I had made this point clear by now; that a rokkie left on an island will struggle.

If there's any high expectation for Jackson as an NFL-ready CB as an underclassman draft pick, it should have been reigned in from the start.
It was you guys who had that expectation; it wasn't me.
 
leebigeztx said:
Did you read my post? When jjo gave it up to smith, smith did show or turn, he was running. Joseph tried to locate the ball against a speed guy. Kareem has shown time after time like jacquez reeves that he doesn't ever read the wr hands or helmet. At least reeves would play the hands and break up the pass. Jackson can't do either and I don't need mayock to tell me. I can get the coaches copy and watch the guy.
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So now we're switching from locating the ball to reading the WR hands and helmet, LOL!

In that case, yes sir, Jackson did just that on this play.
Not just that, Jackson did pretty much exactly what he was taught when defending the fade route near the goal line.
(Note that different DB may adapt different techniques; ie. a tall CB vs a short CB, etc.)

Here are some links you (or anybody else) can follow and learn more about different techniques by different coaches.

This one is by RC Slocum, longtime Aggies HC.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/8020391/defending-the-fade-route-on-the-goal-line

The main point here is as followed:

the defender should wheel towards the receiver and drive upfield with him with visual focus on his hands. When the receiver lifts his hands, the defender must immediately lift his own hands (inside hand) and prepare to drive it through the pocket (receiver’s hands). We stress trying to whack the receiver’s off arm. The defender must get the ball out of the pocket.


Driving through the pocket was what Jackson did; he just didn't manage to get to the ball.
And this is why I said I didn't defend KJ on this play (he didn't get to the ball).
But the technique was there; he did what he was supposed to do.


Before somebody starts to cry about jamming, read the following link; different coaches have different ideas about that. It depends on a lot of different things and it wasn't my point to open another can of worm.

http://www.jcfb.com/forum/messageview.aspx?catid=8&threadid=11082


Here, my point simply is that the CB shouldn't try to locate the ball.

That point is further illustrated here:
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=nfp-20110929_how_do_you_stop_the_back_shoulder_fade

- Don’t look back for the ball. This is going to cause separation with the WR and that is all it takes down inside of the 10-yard line. Instead, focus on the inside hip of the WR once he is into the route stem. Let you eyes take you to the point of attack.

- “Play the pocket.” As I said above, don’t look back for the ball. Here, play on that inside hip and stick your hands in the “pocket” (in-between the WR’s arms). Don’t swat at the ball or rake down on the arm—and don’t panic.
 
DiscoTuna said:
Don't you see the problem there?

Brown shared time when he was a rookie, he became a full-fledged starter his 2nd year.

Caldwell, not a first round pick, shared time as a rookie and has been beaten out of the RG job since.

Allen was splitting time with McCain, Careem was a full time starter.. he's going backward. Action speaks louder than words, Phillips is saying one thing and doing another. Careem is going the opposite direction that Duane Brown did.
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Let's get all the facts straight, shall we.

1. Brown started at the beginning of his rookie year; shared time with Salaam later on, then become a full-time starter from his second year on.
(Note: I made the right call here, too!
I suggested that the Texans should play Salaam and Brown in some sort of a rotation even before that season started. The Texans didn't follow my friendly advice until they found out that they need to slow down their hope to fast-track Brown.
I also called the Brown's pick before the draft.
I also said that Brown's is best in the run game, but needs to work on pass-pro - this is something that Lance Z and his partner John Harris was incorrect on until they were able to see more of Brown in TC.)

2. Allen did not split time with McCain.
McCain was moved to nickel back; he spelled CB once in a while for both Jackson and Allen.

3. There's no problem splitting time with Allen (about 55-45 in favor of Kareem and he's the starter.)
The Texans ranked #5 against the #2 receiver.
http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/teamdef
You can see how we ranked against their #1 and other WRs as well (JJo and McCain).

More later. Got to run now.
 
76Texan said:
Let's get all the facts straight, shall we.

1. Brown started at the beginning of his rookie year; shared time with Salaam later on, then become a full-time starter from his second year on.
(Note: I made the right call here, too!
I suggested that the Texans should play Salaam and Brown in some sort of a rotation even before that season started. The Texans didn't follow my friendly advice until they found out that they need to slow down their hope to fast-track Brown.
I also called the Brown's pick before the draft.
I also said that Brown's is best in the run game, but needs to work on pass-pro - this is something that Lance Z and his partner John Harris was incorrect on until they were able to see more of Brown in TC.)

2. Allen did not split time with McCain.
McCain was moved to nickel back; he spelled CB once in a while for both Jackson and Allen.

3. There's no problem splitting time with Allen (about 55-45 in favor of Kareem and he's the starter.)
The Texans ranked #5 against the #2 receiver.
http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/teamdef
You can see how we ranked against their #1 and other WRs as well (JJo and McCain).

More later. Got to run now.
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Is sombody trying to pat his own back ? I have one for you i called jackson a bust last season and so far i look more right :kingkong: . However i know you'll disagree, which is fine.

My only thought is that if allen is SO bad and KJ is SO good then why do they split time ?

I give KJ till the end of his rookie contract and then he is gone. Seems like only 3 of yall on this whole board see something in KJ that the rest of us dont see. Why is that ?
 
76Texan said:
So now we're switching from locating the ball to reading the WR hands and helmet, LOL!
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This alone shows that you have no idea what you're talking about.

A CB reads the direction of the WR's hands and helmet to indicate where the ball will be located...The fact that you don't know the correlation of that and you're trying to pass off as an "analyst" is laughable.

You analyzing the dynamics of football is like Careem trying to locate the ball... it ain't there.

And out of curiosity, are you a female? Over 50% of your sentences ends with a exclamation mark. I haven't seen that many since texting with teenage girls back in high school.
 
thunderkyss said:
Next year, people will be talking about how much Kareem has improved. Instead of saying 76Texan was right in the first place.

Kinda like Meyers. Two years ago he was talking about how Meyers was not playing as bad as "everyone" said he was, & that he was actually one of, if not, our best linemen.
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Yeah except regarding Kareem Jackson, 76 doesn't know what the hell he's talking about and is clearly wrong. Kareem Jackson ******* sucks and the only reason why he hasn't been beat like a drum this season is because of the improved from 7. He still gets beat when it matters though and when teams need a big play they still throw his way and find a way to get their top playmakers matched up against him.

HE SUCKS (period) and he's going to continue sucking....it's why as a first round pick he can't even beat out Jason Allen who honestly shouldn't be splitting time with Kareem any more, he should be our new starting #2 CB

And for Christ's sake... his name is MYERS.. For somebody who constantly tries to pimp that nut the blind squirrel found, one would think you'd atleast know how to spell his name by now.
 
76texan, if u read my post, I said the db play hands and or the helmet. The really good wrs won't show u either until the ball is right there. Reggie wayne never gives the db any indication where the ball is until late. On a fade, as soon as he is turning towards the qb, the db should've be turning to locate the ball. I've watched wayne enough and we can back to that catch he had in the corner vs the texans a few yrs ago. He catches the fade at a high point, with his hands away from the body. The chance kareem would've had was to turn and jump. In that situation, how many routes could wayne run?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZ-0AYVDboA&feature=youtube_gdata_player

I believe my eyes more than your quotes. He did 0 right on that play. You like videos so much, chew on this one.
 
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leebigeztx said:
76texan, if u read my post, I said the db play hands and or the helmet. The really good wrs won't show u either until the ball is right there. Reggie wayne never gives the db any indication where the ball is until late. On a fade, as soon as he is turning towards the qb, the db should've be turning to locate the ball. I've watched wayne enough and we can back to that catch he had in the corner vs the texans a few yrs ago. He catches the fade at a high point, with his hands away from the body. The chance kareem would've had was to turn and jump. In that situation, how many routes could wayne run?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZ-0AYVDboA&feature=youtube_gdata_player

I believe my eyes more than your quotes. He did 0 right on that play. You like videos so much, chew on this one.
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:toropalm: Why did I watch that play... Now I'm pissed off all over again. What a shitty start to my Christmas vac.
 
wildroot said:
I'm by no means a KJ fan but to be fair, Joseph has been getting lit up alot worse than KJ.
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Joseph is a probowl player though and has already proven his worth and ability in this league. Kburnt still needs to prove that he belongs.

I can live with mistakes by Joseph, because I know more often than not, he'll make the play.
 
Carr Bombed said:
Joseph is a probowl player though and has already proven his worth and ability in this league. Kburnt still needs to prove that he belongs.

I can live with mistakes by Joseph, because I know more often than not, he'll make the play.
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And here lies the issue with which I have problems with. Kjax for the most part plays solidly. He gives up some big plays and everyone just absolutely jumps on him. Jjoe, on the other hand, is almost entirely given a free pass. The bias from last year is still here, and most people still view it with the same pair of glasses.
 
foo82 said:
And here lies the issue with which I have problems with. Kjax for the most part plays solidly. He gives up some big plays and everyone just absolutely jumps on him. Jjoe, on the other hand, is almost entirely given a free pass. The bias from last year is still here, and most people still view it with the same pair of glasses.
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:rolleyes: Yeah, sorry if I'm going to give a probowler a pass when he gets beat.

It'd be like going into a thread that was discussing how crappy Jacoby Jones is and then asking why people aren't upset with Andre Johnson if he has a couple of drops. It doesn't make any sense.
 
Carr Bombed said:
:toropalm: Why did I watch that play... Now I'm pissed off all over again. What a shitty start to my Christmas vac.
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I'm sorry, but I wanted to see the technique jackson was playing.

1. He didn't get a jam on wayne
2. He didn't recognize the route
3. When wayne turned to the qb, he didn't turn around.
4. When wayne jumped, he didn't jumped. Instead, he stayed down and measured waynes johnson.
 
foo82 said:
And here lies the issue with which I have problems with. Kjax for the most part plays solidly. He gives up some big plays and everyone just absolutely jumps on him. Jjoe, on the other hand, is almost entirely given a free pass. The bias from last year is still here, and most people still view it with the same pair of glasses.
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JoJo was solid last year for the bengals, JoJo has been solid this year. Cant compare the 2.

JoJo has ball skills, he has speed, he has instincts, and he knows how to cover WRs.

KJ has no ball skills, has no deep speed, has no instincts, and does not know how to cover WRs.

KJ has "looked" better this season, that is due to an awesome front 7, trust me when you get that much pressure it benefits the secondary. When we dont get pressure is when he is always getting beat our giving up a big play, take the last play of the colts game, no pressure and he gives up the game winning TD.
 
Unfortunately for the Texans, Joseph has been getting burnt just as much recently. Let's not forget he got beat BADLY on a play where Watt saved the day by knocking it down.
 
I trust Wade Phillip's opinion on defense 1000x more than you guys. If he thinks Kareem is our 2nd best corner, then I'll side with him.

If Kareem really does suck as much as you guys say, why is he still starting?
 
dtran04 said:
Unfortunately for the Texans, Joseph has been getting burnt just as much recently. Let's not forget he got beat BADLY on a play where Watt saved the day by knocking it down.
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lets not forget where Julio dropped the game winner for atlanta and KJ was covering. I dont care what the stats say, i have the replay, KJ didnt touch the ball and julio dropped it. KJ never pulled his arm down. i mean we can talk about that if we want to talk about what ifs.
 
dream_team said:
I trust Wade Phillip's opinion on defense 1000x more than you guys. If he thinks Kareem is our 2nd best corner, then I'll side with him.

If Kareem really does suck as much as you guys say, why is he still starting?
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why is he splitting time with a street FA ?
 
buddyboy said:
I was under the impression you thought very highly of Allen. Why is he splitting time with KJ if "KJ has no ball skills, has no deep speed, has no instincts, and does not know how to cover WRs"?
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First round picks play. Why is Blaine Gabbert still starting games for the Jags? Why did Amobi start multiple seasons here?

I also think Allen is a decent player...I wouldn't just write him off as a street FA...I label him more as a "late bloomer" who's making the most of his second chance. I think he deserves his opportunity and if Jackson wasn't a first round pick he would've been given the job already.

Kareem Jackson has done some things well so I'm not going to totally pile on him. He's a good tackler and is physical when playing in run support. He just doesn't have the natural instincts to find the ball once it's thrown, his route recognition is sub par, and he doesn't have make up/closing speed if he happens to take a "misstep" when a receiver beats or confuses him on a route.
 
Carr Bombed said:
First round picks play. Why is Blaine Gabbert still starting games for the Jags? Why did Amobi start multiple seasons here?

I also think Allen is a decent player...I wouldn't just write him off as a street FA...I label him more as a "late bloomer" who's making the most of his second chance. I think he deserves his opportunity and if Jackson wasn't a first round pick he would've been given the job already.

Kareem Jackson has done some things well so I'm not going to totally pile on him. He's a good tackler and is physical when playing in run support. He just doesn't have the natural instincts to find the ball once it's thrown, his route recognition is sub par, and he doesn't have make up/closing speed if he happens to take a "misstep" when a receiver beats or confuses him on a route.
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I agree with most of this. I think Allen and Kareem make a good combo at number 2. They both offer something different, while they both have glaring weaknesses. That can be said about most number 2s though.

About being a first rounder though, there's also negatives that come with it. There's an expectation to perform. And when Kareem didn't perform, he was immediately labeled as a bust, whether you want to admit it or not. People have only looked at his negatives since day one of this season. He's played solidly enough for me to feel somewhat positive about his development. He IS a second year CB.
 
Let's remember that KJ was put into an impossible situation last year by a retarded coaching staff. No rookie CB should ever be thrown out there with terrible coaches and no mentor and expected to cover the other teams #1 WR, that's just a recipe for losing, which we did alot of. Remember last year Gibbs was teaching the CB's to shuffle not back pedal like they've learned all their football life so they were also having to unlearn old technique and learn new technique. That's like telling a right handed rookie QB to start all season and throw left handed. This last offseason was also unusual due to the lockout, no OTA's, and the new defensive coaching staff couldn't work with the players to teach new/proper technique again. So everyone had to learn through a shortened training camp. Considering the fact that KJ's growth as an NFL player was regressed his rookie year by terrible coaches and then stunted his 2nd season by no OTA's and coaching, I think he's doing pretty damn good. Now if he's still playing badly at this time next year when he's had a regular offseason of teaching and OTA's and a full training camp as well as a mentor and better coaching staff and time to learn and gain experience then yea let's look for someone better. I think he's vastly improved over last year. Remember Revis and Aso weren't great until about their 3rd season in the league either.
 
buddyboy said:
I was under the impression you thought very highly of Allen. Why is he splitting time with KJ if "KJ has no ball skills, has no deep speed, has no instincts, and does not know how to cover WRs"?
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i think allen is better than KJ, but allen is no JoJo or Reevis. And it is true that allen was a street FA. Allen does give up plays, just like KJ, but allen gets way more turnovers than KJ. Allen has what 9-10 ints as a texan in a season and a half. thats damn good.
 
Having not been to any games in person this year, I can only comment on what I've seen on the televised games from the living room couch. From that perspective and having not kept a scorcard, it feels like JJ has gotten beat more often than KJ. At least on the big plays where the camera is isolated on the coverage. I can only assume that on these plays KJ had his man well covered, this being the reason the QB threw to the less covered player that JJ was on. I know it may be a simplistic view, but from the living room couch that's just the way it seems.
 
wildroot said:
True, he was signed as a FA, but wasn't Allen a former 1st round pick a few years ago?
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yeah he was, one that many claim is/was a bust. In Miami he got moved from CB to safety way to often to ever settle fully into one position, thats why i havent called him a bus, plus i like what i have seen from him since he's been here. 7 INTs in a season and a half is not half bad, especially for a guy who is splitting time.
 
wildroot said:
Having not been to any games in person this year, I can only comment on what I've seen on the televised games from the living room couch. From that perspective and having not kept a scorcard, it feels like JJ has gotten beat more often than KJ. At least on the big plays where the camera is isolated on the coverage. I can only assume that on these plays KJ had his man well covered, this being the reason the QB threw to the less covered player that JJ was on. I know it may be a simplistic view, but from the living room couch that's just the way it seems.
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hmmm the front 7 dont leave much time for the QB to look at the whole field, and JoJo is always on the opponenets #1 which is where the QB looks first, but when we dont get any pressure is when you see KJ get beat by the #2, #3 WRs. I can tell you its def not because he has his guy well covered.
 
wildroot said:
Having not been to any games in person this year, I can only comment on what I've seen on the televised games from the living room couch. From that perspective and having not kept a scorcard, it feels like JJ has gotten beat more often than KJ. At least on the big plays where the camera is isolated on the coverage. I can only assume that on these plays KJ had his man well covered, this being the reason the QB threw to the less covered player that JJ was on. I know it may be a simplistic view, but from the living room couch that's just the way it seems.
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I think you're right in that Kj is providing solid coverage, forcing the ball to go the other way. But just because Jjo's guy looks more open, Jjo's is there to make the play more often than not. When Kj's man is open, it's a completion more often than not. We've seen two last minute TDs thrown on KJ for a reason.

I'm one of the more patient fans when it comes to Kj, but he is not in Jjo's class yet. I think he's on track. Remember, Jjo's had been in the league since 2006, & his performance this year is surprising to everyone. Jjo's was also a 1st round pick.

While it was questionable that Jjo may have been Cincy's better corner, that argument didn't start until last year & they still let him go.
 
EllisUnit said:
hmmm the front 7 dont leave much time for the QB to look at the whole field, and JoJo is always on the opponenets #1 which is where the QB looks first, but when we dont get any pressure is when you see KJ get beat by the #2, #3 WRs. I can tell you its def not because he has his guy well covered.
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He was covering Reggie Wayne this last game. Only three balls were thrown his way (two completed) when covering Wayne. When Allen was on him they went to Wayne early & often.

INTs are nice, but I'd rather the QB not throw the ball that way at all.

Kj has a lot of work to do, I'm not saying he don't. But he's coming along fine.

& how many times are we seeing Kj getting beat by the 2s & 3s?

You can probably count the number of times on one hand for the whole season...

Well, maybe both hands.
 
thunderkyss said:
He was covering Reggie Wayne this last game. Only three balls were thrown his way (two completed) when covering Wayne. When Allen was on him they went to Wayne early & often.

INTs are nice, but I'd rather the QB not throw the ball that way at all.

Kj has a lot of work to do, I'm not saying he don't. But he's coming along fine.

& how many times are we seeing Kj getting beat by the 2s & 3s?

You can probably count the number of times on one hand for the whole season...

Well, maybe both hands.
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Kareem Allowed 2 receptions to Wayne, and 1 to Garcon he allowed a long of 34 to wayne and a long of 16 to Garcon the total yardage given up was 52 yards including the game winning TD . Allen allowed 6 to Wayne for 55 yards no big plays. DONT FORGET KJ only played a quarter and a half. Wayne was targeted 14 times so that means that allen only allowed 6 receptions on 11 attepmts his way, Reggie Wayne is no scrub.

AND QBs are not avoiding throwing KJs way, he has not earned that status or assumption on any fans part. The front 7 is protecting KJ.

BTW KJ only played a quarter and a half, dont try to make it sound like he shut down Wayne, cause when it mattered he didnt do **** but give up the biggest play of the game and allow the winning TD.
 
EllisUnit said:
Kareem Allowed 2 receptions to Wayne, and 1 to Garcon he allowed a long of 34 to wayne and a long of 16 to Garcon the total yardage given up was 52 yards including the game winning TD . Allen allowed 6 to Wayne for 55 yards no big plays. DONT FORGET KJ only played a quarter and a half. Wayne was targeted 14 times so that means that allen only allowed 6 receptions on 11 attepmts his way, Reggie Wayne is no scrub.

AND QBs are not avoiding throwing KJs way, he has not earned that status or assumption on any fans part. The front 7 is protecting KJ.
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I'm not saying that Kj has earned that status, I'm saying it looks like he will. Wayne is no scrub & Kj covered him very well.

I've stated in another post, when Kj's guy is opened, it's most likely a completion. But I also stated his guy is rarely opened. He needs to get better, be more consistent.

I don't think he's perfect by any means, but I think he's developing well as an NFL CB. He will never be the guy who gets a lot of INTs, but I think he'll be a shutdown corner soon.

EllisUnit said:
BTW KJ only played a quarter and a half, dont try to make it sound like he shut down Wayne, cause when it mattered he didnt do **** but give up the biggest play of the game and allow the winning TD.
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Cromartie got his ass whooped against the Giants. He's been doing this for 6 years & many (not me) consider him to be a good corner..... maybe an upgrade over Kareem, even though Kareem has not had a game that bad this year.

We've got the #3 pass defense in the league, surely Kj has something to do with that.

He's not perfect, he'll still get beat at inopportune times. He should be a clear cut starter in his second year. For whatever reason, he is not. But I think he's getting better.
 
Just because the ball isn't thrown a corners way doesn't always mean they are covering well. They showed some clips from the colts game on espn and orvlosky made some bad decisions. The other receiver was open and he went after jjo anyways. Sometimes qbs make bad reads, sometimes the coverage dictates where the ball is thrown, sometimes qbs stay away from certain guys. As far as kareem goes, he's been ok. If I had my way wed be challenging him with better players in the off season though because I do believe we can get better there. I don't think he's been so good that you pencil him in as the guy there for the next few years.

Lots
 
thunderkyss said:
I'm not saying that Kj has earned that status, I'm saying it looks like he will. Wayne is no scrub & Kj covered him very well.

I've stated in another post, when Kj's guy is opened, it's most likely a completion. But I also stated his guy is rarely opened. He needs to get better, be more consistent.

I don't think he's perfect by any means, but I think he's developing well as an NFL CB. He will never be the guy who gets a lot of INTs, but I think he'll be a shutdown corner soon.



Cromartie got his ass whooped against the Giants. He's been doing this for 6 years & many (not me) consider him to be a good corner..... maybe an upgrade over Kareem, even though Kareem has not had a game that bad this year.

We've got the #3 pass defense in the league, surely Kj has something to do with that.

He's not perfect, he'll still get beat at inopportune times. He should be a clear cut starter in his second year. For whatever reason, he is not. But I think he's getting better.
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yes we have the #3 pass defense. the front 7 can contribute to that more than the secondary. Kind of like last season when the pass defense was so horrible it made the run defense look good.

You have to admit that our guys up front dont leave much time for QBs to find the open guys. So that alone is helping the pass defense.
 
EllisUnit said:
yes we have the #3 pass defense. the front 7 can contribute to that more than the secondary. Kind of like last season when the pass defense was so horrible it made the run defense look good.

You have to admit that our guys up front dont leave much time for QBs to find the open guys. So that alone is helping the pass defense.
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I agree both ways. The lack of a pass rush last year made Kareem look a lot worse than he was. Other than the falling down thing, he looked good in coverage, as good as you'd expect from a rookie corner unless you drafted Deon Sanders or Charles Woodson.

I'm not blaming everything on the safeties either, but there were times when they made him look worse than what he was.

This year, the pass rush is helping him out, never said otherwise, but Kareem's coverage, Jjo, & better play from the safeties is also helping the front 7. QBs are having to go through their progression, their double guessing themselves, and aren't nearly as quick to get rid of the ball as they were last year.
 
thunderkyss said:
I agree both ways. The lack of a pass rush last year made Kareem look a lot worse than he was. Other than the falling down thing, he looked good in coverage, as good as you'd expect from a rookie corner unless you drafted Deon Sanders or Charles Woodson.

I'm not blaming everything on the safeties either, but there were times when they made him look worse than what he was.

This year, the pass rush is helping him out, never said otherwise, but Kareem's coverage, Jjo, & better play from the safeties is also helping the front 7. QBs are having to go through their progression, their double guessing themselves, and aren't nearly as quick to get rid of the ball as they were last year.
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yep the front 7 help the secondary and vice versa. IMHO i just see to many coverage mistakes on KJs part, and he lacks the speed to keep up with deep threat WRs. Noone can deny that. I will say he is playing better than last season, but i'm still not impressed. To me i think they should of turned KJ into a safety and left GQ at CB. I think KJ has all the tools to be a very good NFL safety just dont think he will ever be a starting CB, thats just my opinion.
 
Rey said:
Just because the ball isn't thrown a corners way doesn't always mean they are covering well. They showed some clips from the colts game on espn and orvlosky made some bad decisions. The other receiver was open and he went after jjo anyways. Sometimes qbs make bad reads, sometimes the coverage dictates where the ball is thrown, sometimes qbs stay away from certain guys. As far as kareem goes, he's been ok. If I had my way wed be challenging him with better players in the off season though because I do believe we can get better there. I don't think he's been so good that you pencil him in as the guy there for the next few years.

Lots
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I hear ya... But I'm going mostly on what I see. Because Kareem gets so much slack, I spend a lot of my time watching him. Not very easy to do watching TV, but in this game the angles they showed most plays, you could see the CBs a lot.

When I'm at the games, I'm watching Jacoby (for the same reason) & Kj. Kj's coverage skills are pretty damn good. Changing directions, very good. getting his hands on the ball, muy mal. Timing his hits.... not very good.

Jacoby, not very physical for his size, runs pretty good routes, & I don't think anyone can really cover him.... he just can't catch the ball.
 
EllisUnit said:
Kareem Allowed 2 receptions to Wayne, and 1 to Garcon he allowed a long of 34 to wayne and a long of 16 to Garcon the total yardage given up was 52 yards including the game winning TD . Allen allowed 6 to Wayne for 55 yards no big plays. DONT FORGET KJ only played a quarter and a half. Wayne was targeted 14 times so that means that allen only allowed 6 receptions on 11 attepmts his way, Reggie Wayne is no scrub.

AND QBs are not avoiding throwing KJs way, he has not earned that status or assumption on any fans part. The front 7 is protecting KJ.

BTW KJ only played a quarter and a half, dont try to make it sound like he shut down Wayne, cause when it mattered he didnt do **** but give up the biggest play of the game and allow the winning TD.
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Why is it that KJ is being protected by the front 7, but it doesn't go the same way for Allen? KJ only succeeds because of the help around him, but Allen forces turnovers and makes big plays (no mention of the defense as a whole).
 
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