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What is Laremy Tunsil's worth in a trade?

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
I knew it was just a matter of time before you came to the rescue of Caserio. Tunsil's $15MM and Cooks $10MM is not 1 yr deals. That's $25MM borrowed from future years.
I'm not coming to anybody's rescue.

My question is why do you have an issue of mostly signing guys to cheap 1 yr deals?
 

Texian

Hall of Fame
Do you understand that teams cap opens up by over $100 million next off season? It’s like you are blind to anything positive the Texans can do.
I think it has more to do with me understanding economics and finance better than Kirby does.
 

Lucky

Not like this. Not like this.
Staff member
My question is why do you have an issue of mostly signing guys to cheap 1 yr deals?
The problem is Caserio had to create cap space to sign these one year deals. The players will not be here in 2022, but the cap load will be.
 

Texian

Hall of Fame
Yes you are. You’re trying to convince people on here that they will go 0-16 because they had a bad year with Watson and Watt ( not the same superstar game changing player he once was) as a benchmark to what will happen in 2021. That really doesn’t make sense for several reasons.
1. You have a bunch of new players.
2. You have new coaches, OC the same and a new DC and new defensive scheme.
3. Strength of schedule. ( in which is tough because they play a lot of teams who made the playoffs).
4. On paper a better running back group.
5. Possibly a better offensive line group with a much better coach than Delvin.

Nobody really knows how this season will unfold.
Whatever floats your boat.
 

Texian

Hall of Fame
The problem is Caserio had to create cap space to sign these one year deals. The players will not be here in 2022, but the cap load will be.
One person on this board understands. More so than Caserio. Why spend $10MM to suck when you can spend $40MM to suck just as bad.
 

Lucky

Not like this. Not like this.
Staff member
If they're on 1 yr deals there shouldn't be a cap hit.
Not the players. The $$$ that had to be pushed forward on Cooks and Tunsil's deals. It would be one thing if he used that to sign a player that would help in the future. But, he squandered it on one year deals for special teamers.
 

GanadoUHCoog

Waterboy
My opinion here- but I just lost all respect for Caserio as a GM after seeing him do this. The only reason this makes any sense at all is if we believe we are in real contention this year and thus willing to kick the can down the road somewhat for a better chance to win this year, obviously we aren’t anywhere close to being a winner and will easily be a bottom 10 team in the league no matter what we do right now. The expected salary cap rise in the future has zero relative bearing as every team will see the same rise so this puts us at a strategic relative disadvantage against other teams in the future. For what?!!!!! An absolutely professionally embarrassing thing for the $30M GM to do. JMO.
 
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steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
Not the players. The $$$ that had to be pushed forward on Cooks and Tunsil's deals. It would be one thing if he used that to sign a player that would help in the future. But, he squandered it on one year deals for special teamers.
 

Texansphan

All Pro
In a year of rebuild you've to embrace the suck. The way to improve your team is by improving your draft capital like Jax and Jets have done. Trying for a middle of the round draft pick is not the way to get better. Neither is trading away draft picks for below average players or mortgaging the financial future.
 

Texansphan

All Pro
In a year of rebuild you've to embrace the suck. The way to improve your team is by improving your draft capital like Jax and Jets have done. Trying for a middle of the round draft pick is not the way to get better. Neither is trading away draft picks for below average players or mortgaging the financial future.
At this point for the Texans the only way to improve draft stock is to trade away good players and that defeats the purpose unless all your players are old.
The way Caserio has gone about it so far is all he could do to attempt to improve this team.
He has not only addressed player personnel, he has addressed coaching as well.
For the short time he has been GM of this team, he has made sweeping changes and I bet more is to come by the time this draft is done.
I really don't know what you are so bummed about - he has been the most active GM in the league in the short time he has taken the reins.
Weird.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
Not the players. The $$$ that had to be pushed forward on Cooks and Tunsil's deals. It would be one thing if he used that to sign a player that would help in the future. But, he squandered it on one year deals for special teamers.
Again who are the players you wanted him to sign and what makes you think that those players wanted to come to Kirby. Also the cap should be fully cleared next offseason so the team has a chance to reset. Plus if you add the guys you want them too, are those guys going to come on 1 yr deals and are they going to help you win games and affect the tank?
 

Texansphan

All Pro
Not the players. The $$$ that had to be pushed forward on Cooks and Tunsil's deals. It would be one thing if he used that to sign a player that would help in the future. But, he squandered it on one year deals for special teamers.
We won't know if anything was squandered until we've seen at least a couple of games.
Some of these guys will get cut anyway. Several of these signings have a chance to be impact players and raise this teams bar without breaking the skinny bank we had.
 

Lucky

Not like this. Not like this.
Staff member
Again who are the players you wanted him to sign and what makes you think that those players wanted to come to Kirby. Also the cap should be fully cleared next offseason so the team has a chance to reset. Plus if you add the guys you want them too, are those guys going to come on 1 yr deals and are they going to help you win games and affect the tank?
My point was clear and not meandering. No reason to increase the cap in the future for special teamers now. It's that simple. I think you understand, but feel the need to defend the new GM for some reason.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
My point was clear and not meandering. No reason to increase the cap in the future for special teamers now. It's that simple. I think you understand, but feel the need to defend the new GM for some reason.
I asked legitimate questions and want to know exactly how doing this hurts the team in a tank yr? That's a fair question IMHO, as well as the other questions.

Do you have a problem with 1 yr deals? Because maybe the kinds of guys you wanted him to bring in wanted multi yr deals. This is a tank and get the cap ready to be fully cleared next offseason type of yr. IMHO Maybe you feel differently?
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
You're being very liberal in your use of the term "impact players."
Phillip Lindsay was a pro bowler, so was Andre Roberts. The OL should be better as i think Cannon/Britt are upgrades. Basically the run game and ST's should be better next yr. I'm just glad to see Caserio churning the roster and adding much needed speed to the team.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
You're being very liberal in your use of the term "impact players."
Phillip Lindsay was a pro bowler, so was Andre Roberts. The OL should be better as i think Cannon/Britt are upgrades. Basically the run game and ST's should be better next yr. I'm just glad to see Caserio churning the roster and adding much needed speed to the team.
 

Texansballer74

Hall of Fame
And you are being very gloomy about their chances.
I really don't know what you were expecting with the hand NC had dealt to him.

Yeah it looks like some fans expected a gigantic splash. So the doom and gloom is to be expected. Those same few members we not happy with the 10-6 and 11-5 season either.

For the Texans to put a stop to the doom and gloom expression for those members. They will have to start winning and put an end to this unorganized foolery.


Winning cures all, so they say.
 

Texian

Hall of Fame
For the short time he has been GM of this team, he has made sweeping changes and I bet more is to come by the time this draft is done.
I really don't know what you are so bummed about - he has been the most active GM in the league in the short time he has taken the reins.
Weird.
Sweeping changes does not necessarily mean it's good thing, it can also mean it's a very bad thing. Rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic and paying handsomely to do so is an exercise in foolishness and futility.
 

Texian

Hall of Fame
I'm not coming to anybody's rescue.

My question is why do you have an issue of mostly signing guys to cheap 1 yr deals?
Why do you not have an issue of mortgaging the future in the first year of rebuilding? Your first inclination was to change the subject being discussed. You know in your heart Nick doesn't really know what he's doing. Just a matter of time before you do a mea culpa.
 

Texian

Hall of Fame
You’re right but isn’t it best to wait and see first?
No, not if you already know that mortgaging the future in the first year of rebuilding is the wrong thing to do. Wait and See is what will give you @steelbtexan lost decade. All waiting and seeing will do is guaranteeing more waiting and seeing. How do I know, I have been watching studying the NFL, it's players, coaches and owners for 60 years. At that point you have a pretty good idea of what works and what doesn't. Cal, Nick, Jack, Culley is a recipe for disaster. It's going to taste like **** for a long time.
 
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Texansballer74

Hall of Fame
No, not if you already know that mortgaging the future in the first year of rebuilding is the wrong thing to do. Wait and See is what will give you @steelbtexan lost decade. All waiting and seeing will do is guaranteeing more waiting and seeing. How do I know, I have been watching studying the NFL, it's players, coaches and owners for 60 years. At that point you have a pretty good idea of what works and what doesn't. Cal, Nick, Jack, Culley is a recipe for disaster. It's going to taste like **** for a long time.
I’m talking about the actual play on the field. That’s the only way you really can gauge if they’re tanking or not. Or if they’re just a bad or good team.

Caserio just left a winning organization and I highly doubt he came over here to lose. That man is trying to put a winning product on the field. And that’s with the limited resources he fell into. Throw in the Watson fiasco as well. So far he’s working his magic and brought in players who will compete for a starting position as well a big payday from here or somewhere else.


But like I stated several times, let’s wait and see how things unfold.
 
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Texian

Hall of Fame
I’m talking about the actual play on the field. That’s the only way you really can gauge if they’re tanking or not. Or if they’re just a bad or good team.

Caserio just left a winning organization and I highly doubt he came over to lose. That man is trying to put a winning product on the field. And that’s with the limited resources that he fell into. Throw in the Watson fiasco as well. So far he’s working his magic and brought in players who will compete for a starting position as well a big payday from here or somewhere else.


But like I stated several times, let’s wait and see how things unfold.
Wait and See all you want. I'm not interested. I'm not interested in the play on the field. I'm interested in building draft capital, growing salary cap room. The winning organization you speak of did not get to a point of being able to spend a $195MM in free agency by mortgaging the future salary cap.
 

76Texan

Hall of Fame
I'm kinda in the middle of the road.
Ọn the one hand, I'd like for the new GM to be financially and fiscally responsible; on the other hand, I don't want to see a tank either.
I think I'm going back to study Gruden's Raiders for an example.
In 2018, he had 30 some new guys on the actual 53-man roster.
At the moment, the Raiders are still in no man land and rebuilding.
But they seemed to be somewhat competitive for a little while there.
Maybe the Covid situation affected them.
I'm not sure yet.
On the surface, it looks like the plan he and his GM Mayock put together doesn't / hasn't worked yet.
It does seem like NC is going down this path.

But we still have time to "debate" all of his moves in the months to come.
At the moment, I'd rather not come to a conclusion yet.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
Why do you not have an issue of mortgaging the future in the first year of rebuilding? Your first inclination was to change the subject being discussed. You know in your heart Nick doesn't really know what he's doing. Just a matter of time before you do a mea culpa.
Explain to me how creating cap space for a possible DW4 deal and signing a bunch of guys to 1 yr deals is mortgaging the future? Even if the Tunsil restructure is as bad as you say it is, I find it hard to believe that 1 move is mortgaging the future. Lets atleast wait until next offseason when the cap will be cleared and Caserio will have a full compliment of draft picks before we start the mortgaging the future talk.
 

Texansphan

All Pro
Sweeping changes does not necessarily mean it's good thing, it can also mean it's a very bad thing. Rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic and paying handsomely to do so is an exercise in foolishness and futility.
Would you rather they just sit pat on the hand they used to have?
I don't.
In today's sports world, our athletes do get paid well - it is what it is.
 

Texansphan

All Pro
The Texans will be a better team regardless just by virtue of not having that cancer shithead Bill O'Brien running things.

0-16? Come on now.
Right - improvement by omission. You don't have to watch and study the game for 60 years to figure that one out.
Same goes for the oline coach Mike Devlin - he was a disaster.
Some of the players that got let go were not good either.
Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result is the definition of something. 😉
 

Texansphan

All Pro
Chances at what, exactly?

I'm calling it exactly as I see it, as I see it. When I see something positive, I say so.
They have a chance to be much better than what we saw last season.
One wouldn't have thought that was too hard to figure out.
By your logic, you shouldn't say anything negative either.
 

Lucky

Not like this. Not like this.
Staff member
They have a chance to be much better than what we saw last season.
One wouldn't have thought that was too hard to figure out.
By your logic, you shouldn't say anything negative either.
First, the Texans do not have a chance to be much better next season by signing 20 special teamers.

Second, what logic are you referencing? If I see positive moves, I'll point them out. If I see negative moves, I'll do the same.
 

Texian

Hall of Fame
Explain to me how creating cap space for a possible DW4 deal and signing a bunch of guys to 1 yr deals is mortgaging the future? Even if the Tunsil restructure is as bad as you say it is, I find it hard to believe that 1 move is mortgaging the future. Lets atleast wait until next offseason when the cap will be cleared and Caserio will have a full compliment of draft picks before we start the mortgaging the future talk.
It's not 1 move. Between Cooks and Tunsil $25MM has been borrowed from future years. That is a lot of money to rearrange the deck chairs on the Titanic. If you end up trading DW4 you cut Cannon and Roby AND then you use your 6 draft picks to replace DW4, Roby, Cannon and 3 other players. You certainly will get much better players than the ones you cut. Waiting until next off season is foolhardy because you will be able to do less now that you have mortgaged part of it away. When I said you need to embrace the suck, you really need to embrace the suck. You really need to go full on Jags and Jets. They're are sitting pretty this year. Has nothing been learned from that? MORTGAGING THE FUTURE SALARY CAP IS BAD MANAGEMENT!
 
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Speedy

Yeller Dweller
They have a chance to be much better than what we saw last season.
One wouldn't have thought that was too hard to figure out.
By your logic, you shouldn't say anything negative either.
Come on, man. MUCH better? Other than swapping out roster filler, what have they done where you think they have a chance to be MUCH better?

#1) #4 won't be the QB. That already makes them worse. Yea, Tyrod Taylor led the Bills to the playoffs 4 years ago. And they had the 29th ranked offense, 31st in passing, in doing so. This team ain't winning **** with that kind of production.

#2) with all these signings, where's the play makers? Lindsay could be a nice surprise, but you know they'll waste half a season or more giving DJ every opportunity they can. Then you've got Cooks and a bunch of JAGs. King is a nice addition on defense, but he really hasn't done much since his All Pro season 3 years ago. Still, I'll give you they're better back there than they were, but that's because they had nothing. Lawson's best season is 6.5 sacks. Mercilus has had 4 or 5 better seasons than that. Where's the play makers?

They could be a better team depth wise, but to think they have a chance to be MUCH better is just blind following.
 

Texian

Hall of Fame
Please, please, please..keep it to the topic and not moan about what we gave for him. Everyone knows that and like the deal or not I just do not care; picks are gone. My question is if he stands on the $20 million avg per year do we pay or try to work a deal? Several teams were interested in him pre 2019 and despite some good LTs (I am not so high on those) being mocked round one could we make a move good for Houston and use that $20 m elsewhere? I realize we'd need a LT replacement but here are some deals I would be interested in that the other teams should agree to. If you are going to disagree, give reasons other than "they won't do it".

Note my preference is to extend Tunsil for a reasonable deal six years rather than 4 or 5 with $55 million GTD and that extra year to spread a huge signing bonus over to assist keeping his cap as low as possible. I also would rather pay 26 YOA Tunsil than TWill 32 but the latter can start for the entire contract plus bring much needed help in a trade.

First some comparisons: Lane Johnson Eagles RT Nov of 2019 signed 4 year extension $72 m with GTD $54.59 m and was 29 YOA. In July 2018 27 YOA Taylor Lewan extended for 5 years $80m with 50 GTD and he is a LT.

Option #1 Washington 1.2 plus Trent Williams. I have Tua going here but there is just as much reason they stick with second year QB first pick Dwayne Haskins. If so, Washington needs a left tack in worst way and TWill continues to want out and more money. They want a first for him but I say not happening. Getting Tunsil solves both a both blind side protector and moves TWill saving face for Snyder. Most have DE/OLB Chase Young to Washington but they've got to have LT and those are more rare than QBs. Benefit to Houston is a 7 straight year pro-bowler who turns 32 July this year. Having off 2019 could benefit him. Yes many would rather pay Tunsil but 1.2 gets you Chase filling another high need or trading down for more picks. For example Miami 5 & 18 brings you priority players and maybe Ruiz RG/center at 18 or a very good WR.

Option #2 Giants many thought race for Chase was done deal until they let Washington beat them to #2. Nate Solder needs to go to RT as he was less than 65 PFF not earning his paycheck. Similar options here including trade down from 1.4 and getting 2.36 for another guy and offering 2.57 for Twill. Benefits Houston with more picks and still getting a LT in draft or at 2.57.

Option 3 I see Chargers going with QB Tyrod Taylor or a FA or possibly using 3.71 on Jalen Hurts who many seem to have forgotten. Houston uses 1.4 for massive but smooth LT Mekhi Becton my favorite and 2.37 for another priority player. I would with this draft consider sending 2.57 to Washington for TWill and using 1.4 elsewhere perhaps a trade down as QBs remain on board there.
Tunsil's trade value is now worth about $25MM in dead cap money
 

Texansphan

All Pro
Come on, man. MUCH better? Other than swapping out roster filler, what have they done where you think they have a chance to be MUCH better?

#1) #4 won't be the QB. That already makes them worse. Yea, Tyrod Taylor led the Bills to the playoffs 4 years ago. And they had the 29th ranked offense, 31st in passing, in doing so. This team ain't winning **** with that kind of production.

#2) with all these signings, where's the play makers? Lindsay could be a nice surprise, but you know they'll waste half a season or more giving DJ every opportunity they can. Then you've got Cooks and a bunch of JAGs. King is a nice addition on defense, but he really hasn't done much since his All Pro season 3 years ago. Still, I'll give you they're better back there than they were, but that's because they had nothing. Lawson's best season is 6.5 sacks. Mercilus has had 4 or 5 better seasons than that. Where's the play makers?

They could be a better team depth wise, but to think they have a chance to be MUCH better is just blind following.
The biggest improvement I predict will be on the oline.
Winning more battles in the trenches will definitely help out this offense.
 

Texian

Hall of Fame
That was pretty much a done deal already under O'Brien.
Cooks and Tunsil restructuring of $25MM (borrowing future salary cap, let's call it what it is) was done this year long AFTER O'Brien had been fired and Caserio had been hired.
 

Texian

Hall of Fame
My last comment on the Tunsil FUBAR until the next Texans SNAFU....

RESTRUCTURING CONTRACTS TO MORTGAGE FUTURE SALARY CAPS IN THE FIRST YEAR OF REBUILDING WHEN ALL YOU ARE DOING IS REARRANGING THE CHAIRS ON THE TITANIC IS VERY BAD MANAGEMENT!
 
I'm kinda in the middle of the road.
Ọn the one hand, I'd like for the new GM to be financially and fiscally responsible; on the other hand, I don't want to see a tank either.
I think I'm going back to study Gruden's Raiders for an example.
In 2018, he had 30 some new guys on the actual 53-man roster.
At the moment, the Raiders are still in no man land and rebuilding.
But they seemed to be somewhat competitive for a little while there.
Maybe the Covid situation affected them.
I'm not sure yet.
On the surface, it looks like the plan he and his GM Mayock put together doesn't / hasn't worked yet.
It does seem like NC is going down this path.

But we still have time to "debate" all of his moves in the months to come.
At the moment, I'd rather not come to a conclusion yet.
I agree with you and can see the parallels but let me ask you, do you think part of what has put them in no man land is trying to see what they have and make the Derek Carr experiment work? They have seemed hell bent of him being their franchise guy and to me Carr has flashes but no consistency.

Putting aside the current Watson situation and let’s assume best, and miraculous, scenario of Watson staying in Houston or Texans drafting one of the top QBs in the next draft. Do you think the Raiders method might have worked better with better QB play?
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
It's not 1 move. Between Cooks and Tunsil $25MM has been borrowed from future years. That is a lot of money to rearrange the deck chairs on the Titanic. If you end up trading DW4 you cut Cannon and Roby AND then you use your 6 draft picks to replace DW4, Roby, Cannon and 3 other players. You certainly will get much better players than the ones you cut. Waiting until next off season is foolhardy because you will be able to do less now that you have mortgaged part of it away. When I said you need to embrace the suck, you really need to embrace the suck. You really need to go full on Jags and Jets. They're are sitting pretty this year. Has nothing been learned from that? MORTGAGING THE FUTURE SALARY CAP IS BAD MANAGEMENT!
Obviously they want to keep Tunsil and Cooks to help the young QB that will be drafted. They see them as mentors for the young guys in the rebuild. You dont.

I told you they were going to redo Cooks deal and keep him here.
 


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