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Patriots Accuse Texans of Tampering

shasta said:
Google it yourself, any contracted employee of a team is and could be subject trade, coaches, scouts, trainers, front office people. If there was a link to common sense I would give it to you.
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Wrong
 
shasta said:
Google it yourself, any contracted employee of a team is and could be subject trade, coaches, scouts, trainers, front office people. If there was a link to common sense I would give it to you.
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The burden of proof is on you. It's always fun when noobs come in and start spouting off.
 
IDEXAN said:
So what will the Patriots’ case focus on? I’m told that the timing of the events above—Easterby and Caserio being together less than 24 hours before Gaine was fired, then the Texans putting in for Caserio almost immediately after moving on from Gaine—got their attention. Only adding to that was Caserio and Easterby seen talking with one another (which isn’t really unusual, but still …) at the Kraft’s house.
***
https://www.si.com/nfl/2019/06/13/carson-wentz-eagles-contract-extension-howie-roseman
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Talking about a new job opportunity with Caserio in his present employers home makes no sense at all because if the two men wanted to communicate with each about a sensitive subject like employment with another organization, well they already have the perfect medium because the two men have same agent.
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This would be true if the Texans hadn't requested to interview Caserio last year and were denied permission.

This time the Pats can't deny permission.
 
disaacks3 said:
Seems likely that two guys who know each other met at a private party at a private house they were both already invited to...and actually talked to each other. The only reason I think there "might" actually be enough to charge the Texans with tampering is that the bar is so ridiculously low.

That said, unless an offer was made (either directly, or as part of a hypothetical), it's still a hard case to prove. Simply discussing the fact that Gaine's firing was imminent wouldn't be tampering. Discussing we would soon be having an opening isn't tampering. Asking Caserio if he was open to leaving NE for a GM position (in General) wouldn't even be tampering. Asking if he'd be interested if we "did" have an opening is over the low NFL bar though.
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Not really hard at all, this isn't the first time something like this has come up and fines and draft pick losses usually follow because the accusing team doesn't usually file tampering charges unless they can prove it. I would expect at least a fine on the low side but probably a loss of a pick or two considering it's a GM level executive that's been tampered with.
 
shasta said:
Not really hard at all, this isn't the first time something like this has come up and fines and draft pick losses usually follow because the accusing team doesn't usually file tampering charges unless they can prove it. I would expect at least a fine on the low side but probably a loss of a pick or two considering it's a GM level executive that's been tampered with.
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You're still just throwing darts here. What do you have? What do you purport was said?
 
DocBar said:
Yes, but it's on HC and above that can be traded, and even that is different than a player trade. A team is basically giving up a draft pick for the HC (or above) to be released from his contract.
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A GM level executive is above a head coach.
 
shasta said:
Google it yourself, any contracted employee of a team is and could be subject trade, coaches, scouts, trainers, front office people. If there was a link to common sense I would give it to you.
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(b) No Consideration Between Clubs. Except for head coaches and high-level club employees (club presidents, general managers, and persons with equivalent responsibility and authority), clubs are not permitted to exchange draft choices or cash for the release of an employee who is under contract to a club.
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There ya go, smartass. Maybe you should use a little common sense and do your research before spouting off.
 
disaacks3 said:
You're still just throwing darts here. What do you have? What do you purport was said?
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Not really, I'm just pointing out that these accusations don't generally happen without specific proof in hand. Tha's just a fact, now I don't know what the specifics are but you tell me what makes more sense here, a) The Patriots are throwing up a baseless accusation with no proof that he League will certainly see?, or b) The patriots have specific evidence of tampering. You tell me which is more likely.
 
shasta said:
Not really, I'm just pointing out that these accusations don't generally happen without specific proof in hand. Tha's just a fact, now I don't know what the specifics are but you tell me what makes more sense here, a) The Patriots are throwing up a baseless accusation with no proof that he League will certainly see?, or b) The patriots have specific evidence of tampering. You tell me which is more likely.
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The Patriots trying to create smoke to either:
A) Get a free draft pick from the Texans, or...
B) Delay the Texans long enough to keep their guy.

These make a hell of a lot of sense.
 
disaacks3 said:
Seems likely that two guys who know each other met at a private party at a private house they were both already invited to...and actually talked to each other. The only reason I think there "might" actually be enough to charge the Texans with tampering is that the bar is so ridiculously low.

That said, unless an offer was made (either directly, or as part of a hypothetical), it's still a hard case to prove. Simply discussing the fact that Gaine's firing was imminent wouldn't be tampering. Discussing we would soon be having an opening isn't tampering. Asking Caserio if he was open to leaving NE for a GM position (in General) wouldn't even be tampering. Asking if he'd be interested if we "did" have an opening is over the low NFL bar though.
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What is critical I believe is what did Easterby know about BG at the ring ceremony. Did he know he was going to be fired? Was he in on the firing discussion? It seems after the draft that Cal made this organizational overview on everyone outside of the roster. You would think he took in many opinions but made the firing decision alone after mulling over it. Did Easterby know BG would be fired? The timing of the ceremony and the firing was so abrupt and open to speculation that I have to believe a Easterby didn’t know it was going down. The guy worked for them for years. He would know how they would handle this which leaves me to being open to the possibility that he would avoid a controversy at any cost. This has to be the only angle this investigation hinges on. I think the Pats calling Caserio basically a GM is poppycock. Easterby would know his true function. By not giving clear job titles the Pats have devised a scheme to extort draft picks at will if they want. The NFL should set organizational standards for all teams to clearly follow.
 
disaacks3 said:
Seems likely that two guys who know each other met at a private party at a private house they were both already invited to...and actually talked to each other. The only reason I think there "might" actually be enough to charge the Texans with tampering is that the bar is so ridiculously low.

That said, unless an offer was made (either directly, or as part of a hypothetical), it's still a hard case to prove. Simply discussing the fact that Gaine's firing was imminent wouldn't be tampering. Discussing we would soon be having an opening isn't tampering. Asking Caserio if he was open to leaving NE for a GM position (in General) wouldn't even be tampering. Asking if he'd be interested if we "did" have an opening is over the low NFL bar though.
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Delete
 
shasta said:
Do you not get that Caserio's position with the team is above a head coach?
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JB said:
What part of high-level club employees do you not understand?

Goes back to that reading comprehension I reckon
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Eh, it's kinda dicey. Several outlets have indicated that the Patriots couldn't block Caserio from talking to us.

In order for that to be the case, he'd have to be classified at the "Other Club Employees", not "High Level Club Employees" level. (unless Caserio has some sort of exception in his contract). This kinda works against the Patriots in that Belichick has final say over almost everything and Caserio has never been given a GM title (whether he was effectively one or not)

(j) High-Level Club Employees (Non-Player, Non-Coach). The following provisions govern in cases of high-level club employees (non-player, non-coach). A high-level club employee is defined as:
(1) An individual who has primary authority and responsibility for the organization, direction, and management of day-to-day operations of the club and who reports directly to the controlling owner; or
(2) An individual who is the primary football executive for the club and who has:
(i) the primary authority over all personnel decisions related to the signing of free agents, the selection of players in the College Draft, trades, and related decisions; and
(ii) the primary responsibility for coordinating other football activities with the head coach.
Final authority regarding the composition of the 53-player roster is not a requirement. (see Section 6 (Administrative Review) for disputes concerning this definition):
(3) Under Contract. Except as may be otherwise provided in such contract, a club is not obligated to grant another club permission to discuss employment with a high-level employee if he or she is under contract, even if the inquiring club is prepared to offer the employee a position of greater responsibility within the category of high-level club employee. An employer club may negotiate a right of first refusal into the contract of a high-level employee.
(4) Expired Contract. If the contract of a high-level employee has expired or if he or she is a non-contract employee, the employer club is required to permit the employee to discuss and accept employment with another club. Any attempt to deny such permission will be considered improper under Section 6 (Administrative Review) below.


(k) Other Club Employees (Non-Player, Non-Coach). The following provisions govern in cases of club employees who do not fall into the categories of player, coach, or high-level employee (see definition above):
(1) Under Contract. If a club employee (other than player, coach, or high-level employee) is under contract for the succeeding season or seasons at the time an off-season expression of interest in him or her is made to the employer club by another club, the employer club is under no obligation to grant the employee the opportunity to discuss the position with the interested club. At the discretion of the employer club, however, such permission may be voluntarily granted. If, however, the inquiring club is prepared to offer a position as a high-level employee, as defined above, the employer club may not deny the employee the opportunity to discuss and accept such employment. (See Section 4(k)(4) (March 1 Rule) for exception to this rule.)
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For those wanted to read the whole tampering policy - https://tinyurl.com/y5janpl2
 
Dejaview said:
What is critical I believe is what did Easterby know about BG at the ring ceremony. Did he know he was going to be fired? Was he in on the firing discussion? It seems after the draft that Cal made this organizational overview on everyone outside of the roster. You would think he took in many opinions but made the firing decision alone after mulling over it. Did Easterby know BG would be fired? The timing of the ceremony and the firing was so abrupt and open to speculation that I have to believe a Easterby didn’t know it was going down. The guy worked for them for years. He would know how they would handle this which leaves me to being open to the possibility that he would avoid a controversy at any cost. This has to be the only angle this investigation hinges on. I think the Pats calling Caserio basically a GM is poppycock. Easterby would know his true function. By not giving clear job titles the Pats have devised a scheme to extort draft picks at will if they want. The NFL should set organizational standards for all teams to clearly follow.
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Your post was pretty good until the bolded, which is bunk
 
disaacks3 said:
The Patriots trying to create smoke to either:
A) Get a free draft pick from the Texans, or...
B) Delay the Texans long enough to keep their guy.

These make a hell of a lot of sense.
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C) offer Caserio massive salary increase to keep him locked up in New England. Something similar to what Josh McDaniels received to turn down Colts.
 
disaacks3 said:
Seems likely that two guys who know each other met at a private party at a private house they were both already invited to...and actually talked to each other. The only reason I think there "might" actually be enough to charge the Texans with tampering is that the bar is so ridiculously low.

That said, unless an offer was made (either directly, or as part of a hypothetical), it's still a hard case to prove. Simply discussing the fact that Gaine's firing was imminent wouldn't be tampering. Discussing we would soon be having an opening isn't tampering. Asking Caserio if he was open to leaving NE for a GM position (in General) wouldn't even be tampering. Asking if he'd be interested if we "did" have an opening is over the low NFL bar though.
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Given that this is probably where the bar is set, don't you think that it's likely that we tampered?
 
disaacks3 said:
Eh, it's kinda dicey. Several outlets have indicated that the Patriots couldn't block Caserio from talking to us.

In order for that to be the case, he'd have to be classified at the "Other Club Employees", not "High Level Club Employees" level. (unless Caserio has some sort of exception in his contract). This kinda works against the Patriots in that Belichick has final say over almost everything and Caserio has never been given a GM title (whether he was effectively one or not)



For those wanted to read the whole tampering policy - https://tinyurl.com/y5janpl2
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This is very possible, but unlikely imo. Can they justify he's just a guy after what BB has said?
 
JB said:
Your post was pretty good until the bolded, which is bunk
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Why? If he’s a de facto GM establish the title so teams don’t have to go through this crap. If something can be manipulated it will by orgs like the Pats.
 
Dejaview said:
Why? If he’s a de facto GM establish the title so teams don’t have to go through this crap. If something can be manipulated it will by orgs like the Pats.
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You gonna tell them how to construct their rosters too?
 
JB said:
You gonna tell them how to construct their rosters too?
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That doesn’t have anything to do with this. The idea would be to not allow teams to play a game of denying an employee permission to interview for another position over de facto sub titles. Would a tampering charge be leveled if Easterby was talking say to a strength coach for the Pats? This whole thing has to do with the Pats wanting to keep by manipulation a guy who is not a GM from interviewing. Edit. It’s really a one sided issue. The Texans are forced to label Caserio as a GM. Why not the Pats?
 
shasta said:
Google it yourself, any contracted employee of a team is and could be subject trade, coaches, scouts, trainers, front office people. If there was a link to common sense I would give it to you.
Click to expand...

shasta said:
Do you not get that Caserio's position with the team is above a head coach?
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Do you not get that they are calling you out on the bolded part of your post, and have no disagreement with high level employees being traded?

Here is your link to common sense.
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/common-sense
 
Dejaview said:
Just out of curiosity, why do you make so many posts like this one? I mean how many times a day for I guess years do you take these one line unsubstantiated shots? What do they add? To be honest it just really seems to debase the conversations.
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Why are you so optimistic when they keep doing things like this?
 
Max said:
Given that this is probably where the bar is set, don't you think that it's likely that we tampered?
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I think it's "possible", but all we've heard thus far is takes like Breer's...
So what will the Patriots’ case focus on? I’m told that the timing of the events above—Easterby and Caserio being together less than 24 hours before Gaine was fired, then the Texans putting in for Caserio almost immediately after moving on from Gaine—got their attention. Only adding to that was Caserio and Easterby seen talking with one another (which isn’t really unusual, but still …) at the Kraft’s house.
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There's no "but still" here. Either you tell every coach, GM, waterboy, etc. that any party you attend is actually a seance where no speaking is allowed, or you allow them to interact as normal humans. This isn't an owner stating to the cameras "Gee, I REALLY wish we had THAT guy". (see Woody Johnson). It was an off-season, pre-training camp, informal get together at the owner's house.

The fact that even Breer only has the generalized statement above (no specific interaction or statement) only reinforces my belief that this is all just smoke from the Patriots. That said, If the Texans really want Caserio, I expect them to capitulate to a draft pick to NE for expediency's sake if nothing else.
 
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TheKDog said:
Why are you so optimistic when they keep doing things like this?
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Like what? Nobody knows anything at this point. Whiners and gripers add zero value to anything...just look at our politics and media. All you can do is roll up your sleeves and keep moving. If you hate it leave.
 
disaacks3 said:
I think it's "possible", but all we've heard thus far is take's like Breer's...


There's no "but still" here. Either you tell every coach, GM, waterboy, etc. that any party you attend is actually a seance where no speaking is allowed, or you allow them to interact as normal humans. This isn't an owner stating to the cameras "Gee, I REALLY wish we had THAT guy". (see Woody Johnson). It was an off-season, pre-training camp, informal get together at the owner's house.

The fact that even Breer only has the generalized statement above (no specific interaction or statement) only reinforces my belief that this is all just smoke from the Patriots. That said, If the Texans really want Caserio, I expect them to capitulate to a draft pick to NE for expediency's sake if nothing else.
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And how do you think Caserio's statement when interviewed affects the case. I personally think that if his story is that we tampered, it might be enough for us to be penalized given all the other circumstances. Your thoughts?
 
Max said:
And how do you think Caserio's statement when interviewed affects the case. I personally think that if his story is that we tampered, it might be enough for us to be penalized given all the other circumstances. Your thoughts?
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That would be a slam dunk if that happened, no question.
 
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Dejaview said:
That doesn’t have anything to do with this. The idea would be to not allow teams to play a game of denying an employee permission to interview for another position over de facto sub titles. Would a tampering charge be leveled if Easterby was talking say to a strength coach for the Pats? This whole thing has to do with the Pats wanting to keep by manipulation a guy who is not a GM from interviewing. Edit. It’s really a one sided issue. The Texans are forced to label Caserio as a GM. Why not the Pats?
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Because you made a blanket statement that all 32 teams should have the same heirarchy. Thats not how it works, nor should it
 
JB said:
Because you made a blanket statement that all 32 teams should have the same heirarchy. Thats not how it works, nor should it
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Fine. So how do you promote fair play for the purposes of seeking an interview candidate? You have to have a 32 team standard because the candidate has to be interviewed for a promotion. Says nothing about salary, just job TITLE. What is Caserio’s? Doesn’t say GM. Why have this promotional rule in place if titles can be all over the map?
 
Dejaview said:
Like what? Nobody knows anything at this point. Whiners and gripers add zero value to anything...just look at our politics and media. All you can do is roll up your sleeves and keep moving. If you hate it leave.
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I was here before Bill O'Brien. He'll leave first.

Also, criticism is good and necessary. Blindly supporting the team is part of why we got here
 
disaacks3 said:
That would be a slam dunk if that happened, no question.
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That's where I think they have the gun to our head. It all hinges on what Caserio is going to say from what I can see and I don't know how we can feel comfortable he's going to deny anything. So we risk losing a draft pick for nothing or lose one to get Caserio in a trade as I see it.
 
shasta said:
Not really, I'm just pointing out that these accusations don't generally happen without specific proof in hand. Tha's just a fact, now I don't know what the specifics are but you tell me what makes more sense here, a) The Patriots are throwing up a baseless accusation with no proof that he League will certainly see?, or b) The patriots have specific evidence of tampering. You tell me which is more likely.
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Given that its the Pats the first one makes the most sense. There is no penalty for filing a case even if there is no proof and they don't need proof anyway. All they need is for Goodell to side with them and given the history that's a roll of the dice worth taking for the Pats.
 
TexansBull said:
The comments in reddit are gold as usual.

“So Kraft is now PRO-VIDEO?”

“My sources tell me Texans sent Caserio a winky face on Facebook which Caserio clicked liked. Disgusting.”

“Roger Goodell reportedly has had to have it explained to him multiple times that the Patriots are the ones filing the charges, not the Texans. At one point, sources say, puppets were involved in the explanation.”
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Roger to Robert and Bill....I know this might be painful but I need the two of you to show me, with the hand puppets just how the Texans tried to screw you. Don't be shy.
 
Dejaview said:
Fine. So how do you promote fair play for the purposes of seeking an interview candidate? You have to have a 32 team standard because the candidate has to be interviewed for a promotion. Says nothing about salary, just job TITLE. What is Caserio’s? Doesn’t say GM. Why have this promotional rule in place if titles can be all over the map?
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Oh bless your heart you still think there is such a thing as fair play.
 
TheKDog said:
I was here before Bill O'Brien. He'll leave first.

Also, criticism is good and necessary. Blindly supporting the team is part of why we got here
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But it’s not criticism. It’s never ending unsubstantiated shots. Blindly supporting the team lol, has nothing to do with how we got here. This board has zero input.
 
Dejaview said:
But it’s not criticism. It’s never ending unsubstantiated shots. Blindly supporting the team lol, has nothing to do with how we got here. This board has zero input.
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There isn't much pressure on Cletus to change. They sell out every game
 
maverick512000 said:
Oh bless your heart you still think there is such a thing as fair play.
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Let’s put it this way. The Pats don’t hesitate to use the term GM for their purposes, but they don’t apply the term to Caserio’s job title. So why is there even any possibility of a tampering charge? He’s being offered to interview for a higher function by title. Can’t deny that chance. Where is the standard for the Pats denial? What they call a GM should be the same across the league and not only when they want it so. I’m sure the Texans attorneys will focus on this issue. No there is no fair play where rules can be easily manipulated.
 
Dejaview said:
Let’s put it this way. The Pats don’t hesitate to use the term GM for their purposes, but they don’t apply the term to Caserio’s job title. So why is there even any possibility of a tampering charge? He’s being offered to interview for a higher function by title. Can’t deny that chance. Where is the standard for the Pats denial? What they call a GM should be the same across the league and not only when they want it so. I’m sure the Texans attorneys will focus on this issue. No there is no fair play where rules can be easily manipulated.
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Two separate issues.

1. Tampering charge doesn't depend on title. We can tamper with the wr coach

2. The Patriots are trying to block because they say caserio is a GM and this is a lateral move. That'll be up to the NFL to decide
 
TheKDog said:
Two separate issues.

1. Tampering charge doesn't depend on title. We can tamper with the wr coach

2. The Patriots are trying to block because they say caserio is a GM and this is a lateral move. That'll be up to the NFL to decide
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Tampering is involved if an end around is attempted after an interview request has been “legally” denied. How so with the WR coach if he is being asked to interview for a GM position? Edit. At the end of the day why not Caserio just resign, sit out a week or two then apply for the Texans Now Hiring GM position.
 
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