Well, it wasn't for lack of talent they went 2-14. It was because of the power struggle between Kubiak & Smith.
Had ownership stayed on Kubiak's side & had Smith fall in line or get rid of him, I believe we'd be better off for it.
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O'Brien vs. Kubiak
- Thread starter 76Texan
- Start date
Well, it wasn't for lack of talent they went 2-14. It was because of the power struggle between Kubiak & Smith.
Had ownership stayed on Kubiak's side & had Smith fall in line or get rid of him, I believe we'd be better off for it.
maverick512000
Hall of Fame
Isn't that pretty much the arguement on why OB didn't get anywhere the first 3-4 years? Power struggle between him and Smith.
Nothing beats the eggs Hoyer laid by Hoyer.
And 7 points with DW4 and Hopkins?
Intolerable.
Yeah, but when was Smith gone?
maverick512000
Hall of Fame
Start of 2018 so about two years ago. So in other words OB has had two years without being in a power struggle by this line of reasoning.
maverick512000
Hall of Fame
Explain to mean what the hell a coach is suppose to do when a QB curls up in the fetal position in the middle of the field? Hoyer was actually playing pretty good up till he absolutely collapsed under the pressure of the playoffs. Its the same arguement people use against Cousins, he sucks when the lights are bright. OBs not the only coach to miss that and frankly you don't know how a player will handle the pressure until they are actually under that pressure.
Also you can't put 7 points just on OB. Its been proven Watson can call audibles as well and frankly at some point the players have to actually make plays. I agree OB crapped the bed but the rest of the team was taking their own dump right next to him.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
For the latest example of the bolded, see Kubiak's great protege in Kyle Shanahan & Jimmy G in the SB lol.
From now on, I have to stop responding to excuses.
Sorry.
What the heck is the job of the HC then?
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
After seeing some of the coaching decisions made during the SB, the calls for the genius of Shanahan here should at least be a little more subdued.
maverick512000
Hall of Fame
And from now on I should stop beating my head against a wall and realize that some people have no interest in actual discussion and just like to beat their drum and disregard anything that doesn't fit with their extremely limited point of view. You talk about all your "facts" and how you are watching games back to see things but you are looking at it with bias and preconceived ideas. You aren't looking for truth you are looking for evidence to support what you have already decided is the truth. Guilty until proven innocent and then even if proven innocent then guilty for being accused in the first place.
Oh and you never did reply about how OB has had 2 years without being in a power struggle but I guess thats just an excuse to huh, unless its Kubiak and then it is a valid reason why he went 2-14.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
Its what i try to tell some here & even away from here when they're crucifying BoB for game management & playcalling decisions. Every decision & call these guys make isn't going to be the right decision & thinking that they will be 95 -100% correct in every playcall &/or decision throughout a game is downright ridiculous & flat out stupid. What usually separates good HC's from bad ones is whether or not their players pick them up after perhaps a bad decision or playcall is made. Andy Reid's decision to go for it on 4th down multiple times instead of kicking a FG could've easily backfired & cost them the game..his players came through for him. Contrast that with Harbaugh & the Ravens this year who'd been going for it & converting on 4th & 1 more than anyone. Harbaugh's a genius...he's embracing the analytics yada yada yada. Get into the playoffs this year & gets stuffed on not 1 but 2 4th & 1's & it ultimately cost them.
This is now 2 consecutive SB's where the boy wonders in McVay & Shanahan have made some pretty poor game management & playcalling decisions. Let everyone here tell it though, its something only BoB & bad HC's do.
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Kubiak didn't tell Schaub to throw pick-sixes.
He didn't tell Manning to start throwing a tons of pick.
He didn't tell DT or any of the receivers to drop passes.
Just like OB didn't tell Hoyer to curl up.
So there's nothing to discuss further, is there?
maverick512000
Hall of Fame
In many ways this is the true genius of Belichick in that he takes away what the other team does best and forces them to get into situations where they have to roll the dice. Bill O'Brien will never be Bill Belechick but then neither will anybody else. Yet even BB has to have his players be able to make plays. You can call the perfect play but if the WR drops the ball then its for nothing or if the line breaks down and the QB gets sacked or even if the other side just reads it right. Coaches call the plays and consistent bad calls are on them no question but the players also have to make plays or else any call looks like a bad one.
maverick512000
Hall of Fame
Yet you blame OB for Hoyer curling up and Watson and Hopkins only scoring 7 points.
Edit: Still haven't addressed the question about Smith.
Like I said before, everything has to tie in.
It's not just you; it's Mr Tex, steelb, and whoever else in that same corner.
I can't go in opposite directions.
While I get your point, the difference is those guys made it to the big game in the first place. We've usually lost by 3+ scores every time OB has made the playoffs and never made the AFCCG.
McVay - Lost SB by 10
Lil Shanny - Lost SB by 11
O'Brien -
Lost 2015 WildCard by 30
Lost 2016 Divisional round by 18
Lost 2018 WildCard by 14
Lost 2019 Divisional round by 20
maverick512000
Hall of Fame
So you can't carry on mutliple conversations or you are worried about contridicting yourself? Oh and by the way there is no "corner" I'm am so Fing sick and tired of this us vs them BS that is going on around here. Just because I'm not sitting here calling for OB to be fired with every damn post and just because I think there might be bigger problems and that firing OB will not be the magic bullet that fixes everything doesn't mean I'm happy with the direction the Texans are going overall. I like some of the moves made, Tunsil for example, but I also hate the fact that those moves had to be made. To many on here just see the team in black and white, OB bad and everything else good, this team is not that simple and there is actually nothing but grey.
maverick512000
Hall of Fame
Baiscally TK said they went 2-14 because of the power struggle between Kubiak and Smith. I said this is basically the same arguement others, Steel in particular, has made about OB that he has been in a power struggle with Smith and thats been at the core of the team's problems. You asked how long had Smith been gone and I looked it up and he left at the beginning of 2018 so he had been gone for two years or basically two offseasons.
So the question is do you agree that Kubiak went 2-14 because of the power struggle and if so how is that different from OB?
I agree that everything is grey.
My stand has always been that OB is not a great designer of offensive scheme and how to get the players in good positions to succeed as often as what I saw from other coaches.
When I mentioned the 7-21 Colts game for example; I just went back and re-watched (yet again) the first few series.
The Colts ran 2 rub routes and a three-deep routes to beat cover 2.
These are ways to put your players in better positions to make play.
And OB is very lacking in this department.
Not that he didn't do it, but nowhere as much as the other coaches like Reich and Reid.
OB hasn't gone 2-14... yet
I have no idea how things work behind the scene, so I mostly stay out of it.
I only think that Kubiak has a good scheme, and he had learned how to get the Olinemen to work well in that scheme such that they can spend less resources on the Oline and the RBs, and maybe on TEs, too.
That way, you can spend more resources on the other positions: the defense and a top receiver or two.
If there's a power struggle, I'll let the GM walk.
Look at how many draft picks and top FAs the Texans had on offense under Kubiak vs. on defense.
theCATALYST
Football Messiah
Kubiack > O'Brien
Kubiack < O'Brien
I don't know.
What I do know is O'Brien as HC with Kubiak as an OC would be amazing with our current talent.
Yes I know....dream on.
Kubiack < O'Brien
I don't know.
What I do know is O'Brien as HC with Kubiak as an OC would be amazing with our current talent.
Yes I know....dream on.
maverick512000
Hall of Fame
Did Kubiak do that or was it his Oline coach? On this though I agree it doesn't matter because even if OB isn't directly to blame for how bad the line has been he is to blame for Devlin still be the line coach. I said this a long time ago but I don't blame Ob for Devlin being a bad coach, I blame him for Devlin being a bad coach employeed by the Texans.
As far as draft capital we have spent a lot on the line and TE's, for some reason, but we have spent a lot on the defense side as well. We took Clowney with our last 1:1 and next year we took Johnson. After that we took Fuller and after that Watson. This last year was the first year we have spent a 1st round on the line and we have never taken a RB or TE with round 1. Honestly I don't remeber when we last drafted a RB actually.
All that being said I'm not actually arguing that OB is better than Kubiak but I have trouble believing that Kubiak is better than OB seeing as the results were at best the same and if you look at pure numbers worse. Even today with the Vikings they aren't doing much better than the Texans ever have.
theCATALYST
Football Messiah
That would be D'Onta Foreman in the 3rd round of 2017.
Prior to him we had;
Tyler Ervin 2016 rd 4
Kenny Hilliard 2015 rd 7
Alfred Blue 2014 rd 6
Ben Tate was the last RB chosen during Kubiak's reign in 2010 rd 2.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
Here's the thing though. McVay & Shanny both had defenses playing out of their minds during their SB runs. They also had talent EVERYWHERE & really had no holes on their respective teams. Their weakness was the same though: Qb's who weren't quite as good as the talent around them made them look. This year, McVay didn't have that great defense, His o-line was suspect & his all-world rb was average...9-7 missed the playoffs.
Contrast that with BoB..whose always had to attempt to make it happen with glaring holes on his teams.
Lost 2015 WildCard by 30.........................terrible qb
Lost 2016 Divisional round by 18...............terrible qb, suspect o-line
Lost 2018 WildCard by 14......................... o-line still terrible, suspect secondary
Lost 2019 Divisional round by 20...............no pass rush, suspect..err terrible secondary.
& its funny b/c without the aggressive moves made in FA by BoB & the collective this year, the o-line still might have been on here as a glaring hole.
maverick512000
Hall of Fame
You're forgetting that in 18 our offense at that point was Watson and an injuried Hop that should have been on IR but if he was then Watson would have better luck throwing to Toro than anyone left on offense.
banned1976
sleeper mode
I liked O’Brien (as head coach) before I didn’t.
I never liked Kubiak as head coach.
I never liked Smith as GM.
I think on balance they’re all good people. I just believe every single one of them were unqualified for their positions with the Texans.
I never liked Kubiak as head coach.
I never liked Smith as GM.
I think on balance they’re all good people. I just believe every single one of them were unqualified for their positions with the Texans.
In his last couple as HC of the Chargers, Marty Shottenheimer and the GM (AJ Smith) got into a power struggle and would barely speak to each other. In 5 years, Marty went 47-33 and 0-2 in the playoffs. After a 14-2 season and failing in the playoffs, he was fired.
My point? Because of their perspectives (long term vs short term outlooks), GMs and HCs are always disagreeing with each other. It’s nothing thats unique to the Texans. I don’t buy losing seasons because of GM and HC conflicts. It’s an excuse to defend one or the other for the team’s performance.
My point? Because of their perspectives (long term vs short term outlooks), GMs and HCs are always disagreeing with each other. It’s nothing thats unique to the Texans. I don’t buy losing seasons because of GM and HC conflicts. It’s an excuse to defend one or the other for the team’s performance.
A loss is a loss
I've tried to make this post several times.
Great job
Not that it's going anywhere.
The Colts had Hilton/Ebron/Doyle etc... running those routes and Luck playing QB. I cant say I'm surprised you cant see the difference. Meanwhile you had DW4 crapping the bed (To be expexcted in his 1st playoff start.) throwing to an injured Nuk/V.Smth (Not even in the NFL.)/ Coutee/Rookie TE's/Ryan Griffin.
Not surprising you would answer in this evasive kind of way. Go back and check out the drafts in rds 2-4 while Smithiak/Smith and BOB were here. There are too many busts to count and this continued when BOB came on board. Ever ask yourself why? Of course not.
Depends on the talent acquired and the guy acquiring the talent.
Only in the stat column.
Brian Hoyer plays solid (instead a 30-0 blowout where he throws 4 picks) and what are the odds we break the bank for Osweiler next season?
I intend to do a thorough breakdown on players inherited, and later on - player acquisitions, on the offensive side of the game.
The starting point was the RB position with Domanick Davis Williams vs Arian Foster when each HC first came to the Texans.
Have you acknowledged that very first point?
Texansballer74
The Marine
Might as well bring Osweiler, Hoyer, or Mallet back. The one we have is not living up to the Michael Jordan expectations/ hype. He’s too inconsistent, can’t throw with anticipation and too S to play in a pro style offense.
Texansballer74
The Marine
You’re going all out in attempt to convince members who are not going to see it your way there bud.
Both sides have made very compelling point of views.
Uncle Rico
Ur apology should be as loud as Ur disrespect was
The Texans didn't hire Gibbs until 2008.
In 2007, they already ranked 12th on point scored and 14th on yards gained (for simplicity, I didn't look into defensive and ST team scoring - but 14th in yards gained is one good indication).
They retained the OL coach from the Capers' regime, and I believe they ran a different offense and blocking scheme.
.........
Also, if you look at points scored and yards gained, the offense did much better under Kubiak then OB.
And Kubiak had had many QBs, too.
From Carr to Rosenfels, Schaub, Yates, Keenum. Did I miss any?
Maybe a temp here and there?
I'm going to try to present facts first.
It's a long off-season.get em @76Texan !!! (I would join in, but i just dont have the energy to argue with stupid right now LOL) Bless your heart!! keep fighting the good fight! I anxiously await the roster breakdowns!!
Rub routes become even more important when your receivers are not 100%.
They can't win the 1 on 1 as often.
Hilton wasn't healthy last year.
He actually did not practice at all prior to the game.
Doyle was out.
He lead the Colts in catches/yds in that playoff game. 5-85
Look at the snap counts.
With Doyle out, Mo-Allie Cox even had 5 more snaps than Ebron.
The Colts played several WRs.
Coutee had 11 catches.
As long as he doesn't fumble, he ain't bad.
Exactly.
Normally, he would have torched the Texans.
I understand this, but it's hard to have a productive offense when 1 WR isn't even in the NFL anymore and another one shouldn't be.