maverick512000
Hall of Fame
What are you basing them working together on the deal on? I mean the part where OB said “let’s give the guy 37 million this year alone”.
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O'Brien vs. Kubiak
- Thread starter 76Texan
- Start date
What are you basing them working together on the deal on? I mean the part where OB said “let’s give the guy 37 million this year alone”.
maverick512000
Hall of Fame
Disagree it’s going to be a tragic event, it’s just the reality of the modern NFL. Every player even remotely worth a damn is becoming “the highest paid (insert position here) ever” right up until the next guy worth a damn at that position is up for renewal.
That’s why they are predicting a massive jump in the cap. It use to be only QBs drew the biggest money and they still do draw the lion’s share but now LTs, DEs, CBs, WRs and even RBs are drawing what just a few years ago was only QB money. Hell Jerry just paid Zeke 90 million 50 of it guaranteed. Think about that, a RB, no matter how talented, just got a contract only 10 million less that Brees with more guaranteed and much bigger than any Brady contract.
Tunsil will become the highest paid LT in history which will last till the next guy comes along.
Based on multiple reports that they work together and take any disagreements to the mcnairs
Texansballer74
The Marine
The tragic part will be if we lose out again. This time around it will come at a steeper price. Meaning we gave up a lot in the hope of him signing a long time contract with us. What is our back up plan?
I'm hoping the big fella stays.
Based on a poster here that was in the room when Manning was here for his visit.
Tunsil is going to get re-signed
There are players to be found in rds other than Rd 1. But if you want a 1st you have the assets to trade back into the 1st if need be.
Fans have been conditioned to think the draft ends after rd1. I get this with past GM's draft records after Rd 1.
Pretty thin evidence
Here we go again. Lower rounds are crappier talent. If we are trading up then we're just losing more picks.
maverick512000
Hall of Fame
No I mean which report said that RS sat down with OB and asked his opinion on how much they should pay Osweiler much less his approval. Hell for that matter where are the reports that even said he knew what they were going to offer Osweiler. Again OB has had more than enough screw up of his own without trying to assign RS's to him as well.
maverick512000
Hall of Fame
No worse than all those reports with "sources".
maverick512000
Hall of Fame
I don't see why he wouldn't, as I've said before our money spends just as well as anyone else's and its not like he had a lot of championship hope before coming here. I mean he was stuck in a tanking Miami for God's sake. Likewise we want to get a deal done this off season but we do still have him for next season at least and then there is the tag. Lots of time to work out a deal and sign a long term contract.
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
Across the 2017 and 2018 seasons, Texans’ LTs allowed a pressure 1 out of every 10 pass-blocking snaps, the worst mark in the NFL. Tunsil allowed a pressure only 1 out of every 28 snaps this season, 4th among qualifying LTs.
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Based on their roles in the organization. Coaches very rarely have any say in player contracts.
What do you have that indicates that they were the outliers when they had a GM here?
maverick512000
Hall of Fame
Especially a GM and HC that admitted they had different visions for the team. I could maybe understand it if the GM and HC are in lock step with each other but why in the world would RS even consult OB on contracts never mind ask his approval. That makes absolutely no sense.
You missed my point
maverick512000
Hall of Fame
He doesn't care what your point is. The narrative is that Kubiak is a much better coach and everything posted will be to drive that narrative home. Ultimately even that isn't the underlining point to all this. Its the most elaborate method to try and prove Steel wrong in the Kubiak vs OB arguement yet to date.
How do I miss your point?
Kubiak identified a LT that played in the ZBS and WCO at VTech.
He went out and drafted the player.(That was also the reason I pegged DB for the Texans and was pleased that the Texans called his name on draft day.)
OB felt like Tunsil was the best available through FA, so he traded for Tunsil.
Kubiak realized that Gibbs was the best OL coach to teach that scheme and the techniques on a day-to-day basis, so he brought Gibbs in.
It's on OB to bring in the OL coach.
I take every one's point of view and consider each one.
It was the case with Chris Myers and K Jax.
Why should it change now?
I can only mention Osweiler as he was with Kubiak before, and he went 5-2.
Kubiak understood that Osweiler has a "long-winded" throwing motion, so he gave Oz the play action drop back and the roll-out.
OB tried to keep him in the pocket with not enough play action to keep the defense back.
Savage and Davenport were OB's picks.
He's tasked with recognizing young "talents/potential" and developing them, as he's the one that runs the E-P.
The defensive guys; neither of the HC had much part in developing as they gave their DCs autonomy or close to it.
Believe what you want.
Porky
Hall of Fame
I always thought Kubes was a better OC than HC. That said OB has three titles and isn’t good at one.
Kubes had a cohesive offense with an identity. Granted when OB came onboard I was happy with this idea of a game plan offense based on opponent but I soon realized that also meant we had no identity and that it made for an overly complex offense with players needing multiple years to master it.
In hindsight give me something I can hang my hat on as a player or just as a fan with some wrinkles thrown in based on opponent.
Kubes was a bit too wedded to his offense and OB doesn’t have one. I’m looking for a happy medium.
Kubes had a cohesive offense with an identity. Granted when OB came onboard I was happy with this idea of a game plan offense based on opponent but I soon realized that also meant we had no identity and that it made for an overly complex offense with players needing multiple years to master it.
In hindsight give me something I can hang my hat on as a player or just as a fan with some wrinkles thrown in based on opponent.
Kubes was a bit too wedded to his offense and OB doesn’t have one. I’m looking for a happy medium.
Kubiak was definitely much better as an OC, that's for sure.
You look at what he inherited on offense.
And throughout his tenure, they only drafted 3 offensive players in the first two rounds (one of them was Hopkins, who only arrived in 2013) vs 11 on defense.
(Did I miss any besides D Brown, Tate, and Hopkins?)
And it wasn't just that.
It's the same thing regarding Free Agency.
Who else that the Texans brought in besides Matt Schaub?
And yet, the defense continues to lag for the most part.
With Wade, that defense was stacked with even more talents.
Yet it was inconsistent from year to year.
I don't blame Kubiak for being conservative. He couldn't count on the defense.
Even so, if Kubiak had started out with the same level of talent that O'Brien inherited on both sides of the ball, he would no doubt have achieved a better result.
Okoye... the list gets quite a bit larger if you include the 3rd round
dream_team
Hall of Fame
My bad... I'm old and my memory sucks. Just remembered him as a bust Tackle
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
From 2011 - 2013, Kubiak had that same level of talent & actually more on both sides of the ball........... & he flamed out exactly where BoB did..divisional round bottoming out with a 2-14 record..
Kubiak pulled a John Gruden & inherited a SB caliber team when he arrived in Denver.....& he still needed an all-time great defense.......Though his qb wasn't what he once was, he was still better than anyone BoB "inherited" in 2014 when he arrived.
Maybe like some believe with me & BoB...Maybe you're giving Kubiak just a scoch too much credit.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.mi...s-2015-2016-peyton-manning-ben-roethlisberger
You like to forget that conveniently.
The receivers had a case of dropsies during the season (DT was losing the fan base).
It continued into the play-offs, particularly against the Steelers, with 7 drops as reported in the article above.
...........
And yeah, the following year, with Sieman, Kubiak beat OB soundly, 27-9.
End of story.
The 5 starters on that offensive line had never played together, and the Broncos just changed over to Kubiak's WCO and ZBS.
You like to forget that conveniently.
The receivers had a case of dropsies during the season (DT was losing the fan base).
It continued into the play-offs, particularly against the Steelers, with 7 drops as reported in the article above.
...........
And yeah, the following year, with Sieman, Kubiak beat OB soundly, 27-9.
End of story.
Texecutioner
Hall of Fame
He's an Aggie, and you should be aware by now that the Aggie fan boys for Kubiak are probably the worst ones that have graced this site. Several of them hated the Texans the minute that O'Brien got hired. They vowed to crucify him forever simply because he was the guy that replaced him.
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
That's far from the "end of story." Unlike what many would want to think, stats seldom tell or prove the whole story, but are often used to try to prove points that they can't prove. Kubiak didn't beat OB.........the Broncos beat the Texans. The Broncos ran all over the Texans D with almost 200 yds. Osweiler had a 53% completion rate for just over 3 yd/pass and 3 fumbles and no TDs for the game. Siemian and Osweiler looked equally lame. And neither Kubiak nor OB suited up for that game as far as I can remember.
Observing the two coaches, I give a slight edge to Kubiak. Both men are very similar. As a result, since they are suppose to be offensive gurus, it boils down to their offensive schemes.
When you watch the Texans, it appears that O'Brien's favorite running formation is the shotgun. I absolutely hate that strategy. Using the shotgun as your primary running formation is predictable and you are intentionally limiting your running game and making the defenses job easier. As much as the Texans run or want to run the ball, it's ridiculous that they cannot use better personnel groupings and formations. The passing game with all these option routes is difficult on a young team that has to read the defenses, make adjustments at the LOS and be on the same page with the QB and WRS.
When you watch a Kubiak offense, you know the identity. They are going run the ball from different formations, play action passes, bootlegs, roll-outs and moving pockets. The offense will keep the defense guessing because they run different plays from the same formation. The route options are defined and there is a hot route on every pass play. The QB just needs to find it. It's a QB friendly system and because it doesn't have all of these checks and audibles, it's very easy for young QBs and WRs.
Both men are loyal to a fault, can be stubborn and will go conservative at the worst time. The smartest thing O'Brien did was hiring Crennel. For many years, the defense actually carried the team. Without Crennel, I believe O'Brien would have been fired earlier. Kubiak not being able to hire a competent DC was also puzzling. Without Wade, he probably gets fired too!
To his credit, O'Brien has not lost the locker room. You don't hear any grumblings about the scheme. If he would delegate the play calling to his OC while working on his game management skills, I could see him becoming better than Kubiak. However, until he can do a better job of self analysis, he will be the Jeff Fisher and Marvin Lewis of this generation.
So, in the end I give a slight edge to Kubiak for offensive scheme, game planning and the ability to establish an offensive identity. My wife and I were watching a Vikings game and Cousins rolled out and threw a pass to his TE. My wife immediately said, "Hey! That's Kubiak's play he ran with the Texans". Besides the incessant A gap runs, can anyone tell me the identity of a Texans' offense?
When you watch the Texans, it appears that O'Brien's favorite running formation is the shotgun. I absolutely hate that strategy. Using the shotgun as your primary running formation is predictable and you are intentionally limiting your running game and making the defenses job easier. As much as the Texans run or want to run the ball, it's ridiculous that they cannot use better personnel groupings and formations. The passing game with all these option routes is difficult on a young team that has to read the defenses, make adjustments at the LOS and be on the same page with the QB and WRS.
When you watch a Kubiak offense, you know the identity. They are going run the ball from different formations, play action passes, bootlegs, roll-outs and moving pockets. The offense will keep the defense guessing because they run different plays from the same formation. The route options are defined and there is a hot route on every pass play. The QB just needs to find it. It's a QB friendly system and because it doesn't have all of these checks and audibles, it's very easy for young QBs and WRs.
Both men are loyal to a fault, can be stubborn and will go conservative at the worst time. The smartest thing O'Brien did was hiring Crennel. For many years, the defense actually carried the team. Without Crennel, I believe O'Brien would have been fired earlier. Kubiak not being able to hire a competent DC was also puzzling. Without Wade, he probably gets fired too!
To his credit, O'Brien has not lost the locker room. You don't hear any grumblings about the scheme. If he would delegate the play calling to his OC while working on his game management skills, I could see him becoming better than Kubiak. However, until he can do a better job of self analysis, he will be the Jeff Fisher and Marvin Lewis of this generation.
So, in the end I give a slight edge to Kubiak for offensive scheme, game planning and the ability to establish an offensive identity. My wife and I were watching a Vikings game and Cousins rolled out and threw a pass to his TE. My wife immediately said, "Hey! That's Kubiak's play he ran with the Texans". Besides the incessant A gap runs, can anyone tell me the identity of a Texans' offense?
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When it comes to the Texans drafting Garopollo, I have never understood the need to pick a side in the "O'Brien wanted Garopollo and Rick Smith failed to get him" debate. I think it's totally hindsight, posturing and finger pointing.
Going into the 2014 draft, Garopollo was not considered a first round or early second round pick. There were concerns about his college competition, ability to read NFL defenses, ability to handle the blitz, and small hands. He was not a sure fire pick and many expected him to go to a QB needy team as a developmental QB.
The Texans have the 65th pick in the 2nd round. So let's take a look at the teams drafting before the Texans' 65th pick.
Before O'Brien became King of Kirby. None of us knew the inner workings of the nebulous decision by committee process on Kirby or who was making the final decisions. So to take a side in the JimmyG could have been a Texans debate seems pointless and a tad bit tiresome. IMHO, it's being used as crutch to say, O'Brien didn't get his QB for his system. As if Garopollo on the roster would make him change his Drew Bledsoe era EP system.
Going into the 2014 draft, Garopollo was not considered a first round or early second round pick. There were concerns about his college competition, ability to read NFL defenses, ability to handle the blitz, and small hands. He was not a sure fire pick and many expected him to go to a QB needy team as a developmental QB.
The Texans have the 65th pick in the 2nd round. So let's take a look at the teams drafting before the Texans' 65th pick.
- 60th: Panthers. They have Cam Newton as their starter and would not waste a pick on a developmental QB
- 61st: Jaguars. They just used their 2014 first rounder on Blake Bortles and are not going to spend another pick on a developmental QB
- 62nd: Patriots. They have Tom Brady, drafted Ryan Mallet in 3rd round of the 2011 draft and unexpectedly picked up a developmental QB.
- 63rd: Miami. They have a young QB in Tannehill and need to surround him with weapons and will not pick a developmental QB
- 64th: Seattle. They have Russell Wilson and will not pick a developmental QB
Before O'Brien became King of Kirby. None of us knew the inner workings of the nebulous decision by committee process on Kirby or who was making the final decisions. So to take a side in the JimmyG could have been a Texans debate seems pointless and a tad bit tiresome. IMHO, it's being used as crutch to say, O'Brien didn't get his QB for his system. As if Garopollo on the roster would make him change his Drew Bledsoe era EP system.
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Do you have any link, Doc?
When you can't find any, I'll have two of them waiting for ya'.
What most of TTMB is these days
I just rewatched the game, too.
I'll even have a clip that shows Kubiak running across the field at the end of the game to shake OB's hand.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
Here’s the biggest point you “conveniently” leave out. That Denver team he inherited had just come off a SB appearance the year prior and they were actually a better offense under John Fox lol.
In the AFC championship game vs. NE at home, Kubiak’s vaunted offense only put up 20 damn pts.
The defense the Broncos had that year peaked at the right time. They were able to limit a Brady/Gronkowski led offense to 18....they absolutely harassed Brady all day picking him off twice with 1 of those coming inside the 20 that the offense was able to convert on.
If you’re being honest here, Kubiak and his offense did next to nothing in that super bowl run. They basically only scored 14-17 pts in each the AFCCG and the SB....wade and that defense did all the heavy lifting and put that team over the top.
Here's the point for you, under Fox, the Broncos lost to the Colts in the divisional round in 2014, scoring just 13 points.
Under Kubiak, the Broncos scored 23, 20, and 17 points on offense in the 3 games during the SB run; (the D scored 1 TD in the SB agains the Panthers.)
And that was with an over-the-hill QB.
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
You're the stat man. Feel free to look at NFL.com's box score on that game. But I'm sure you knew that.Do you have any link, Doc?
When you can't find any, I'll have two of them waiting for ya'.
There was a presser postgame from O'Brien with the same "we need to coach better, yada yada".
I'm pretty sure you know the routine.
Kubiak missed one game, but that wasn't it.
Sieman played well.
You know the Texans D isn't really shabby.
DT dropped a pass; otherwise, the Broncos would have at least another FG.
Osweiler wasn't terrible.
His throw-fumble was due to his long-winded motion that O'Brien didn't help when he couldn't design a play to get his receiver the chance to get open.
The D-lineman was in his face so Osz was half wanting to throw it away, half wanting to pull it back.
O'Brien kept dialing long bomb for Oz, but the Broncos had the receivers covered pretty much the whole time, often with a double team.
I had watched and rewatched all these games for 6 years; O'Brien just doesn't have the offensive prowess.
One fumble was a bad snap/exchange with Oz recovering it.
He recovered another one after he ran for a first down and fumbled it.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
That over the hill qb was still better than anyone BoB had until Watson. And the loss against the Colts doesn’t negate the SB run in 2013 with an ALL-TIME GREAT OFFENSE.
And lol, You’re proving my point. the defense carried them in that SB run and If BoB’s offebse put up those point totals on offense, SB run or not, you and others would be in here screaming bloody murder and saying the same things in saying to u now. Hell, ya’ll did it all this playoffs and in both games we put up more points than kuibiak’s offense put up during his SB run lol.
Do you even know how many points the offense put up under OB in the playoffs?
Especially if you take away the game against the inept Raiders.
0
16
7
19 in regular time.
24 (with 7 of those needing only 6 yards).
And OB has had all the resources on offense.
And even against the Raiders, 10 points were heavily aided by the D.
The O managed 8 yards for a FG and 4 yards for a TD.
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Mr teX
Hall of Fame
That dog doesn’t hunt either considering Kubiak’s offense in the SB didnt even score and offensive TD until 5 MINUTES WAS LEFT IN THE GAME! And guess what? that offensive TD came off of a strip sack fumble recovery by the broncos defense that set them up in the red zone lol.
And are u just going to conviently forget that Against the Pats in the 2015 AFCCG Kubiak and his offense scored twice from a short field on 2 TB12 picks...
Lol So if your docking for short fields then his offense only scored like 10 pts in the 2015 AFCCG against the Pats and like 6 in the SB buddy...his offense that year was putrid. The defense carried them.
What u should do is Stop trying to skew the data. Regular time or Regular time + OT or short fields our offense in the playoffs this year put up:
22 pts against Buffalo
24 pts against KC
That’s more pts than Kubiak as HC of the Donkeys put up at anytime in the playoffs during their SB run with or without Short fields and defensive TDS to assist the final point total.
austins23
Hall of Fame
not so fast my friend....
that halfback pass Kubiak called in Arizona with Chris Brown was a big ol head scratcher. Definitely a "what the hell was he thinking" moment.
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ShinobiMusashi
Waterboy
I still feel like firing Kubiak and Wade in 2014 was the worst thing this team ever did. I thought they should have gave them another year together. Then we had to watch them win a Super Bowl for another team together and then the prime time game with O'Brien and Brock Osweiler in Denver the next year was like the biggest egg on the face moment in franchise history. They kept showing Robert Mcnair and Rick Smith watching the game looking like ******* clowns. Sad stuff.
RGV82
Random guy
When you look at the big picture and everything that has happened since, your logic makes sense. However, at the time, we came off a 12-4 season making it to the divisional round of the playoffs, and ended up finishing 2-14 on the year (losing 11 games in a row). At the time, I think it would have been hard to justify keeping Kubiak and Phillips after that melt down. Firing them was the only option.
theCATALYST
Football Messiah
Besides the A gap runs, I would have to say our identity is WR screens for -1 yard.
maverick512000
Hall of Fame
Pure hindsight, by that thinking you can name alot of "worst thing this team ever did". We were coming off a 2-14 season and were about to have at least a mini-rebuild, with that scenario even OB might have lost his job. As far as watching them go to Denver they didn't build the Denver team to win a SB. Elway built the car and then handed them the keys and said just don't drive it off a cliff. Where Kubiak was smart was he knew the offense and Manning had no prayer of winning that season and the team wasn't built for it so he used them as game managers and let Phillips and the defense carry the load.
As far as the game in Denver goes I honestly don't blame the Texans for that or at least not any more than I do any other loss. The media hyped that game up so much because it made for a great story. The defending champs that had lost there heir apparent now having a shot at revenge. Texans had a new QB in a completely new system, On top of that we would later learn that Osweiler just was flat out crap and we did the Broncos a huge favor by taking him off their hands. People forget that Elway was matching our offers dollar for dollar till Osweiler stopped taking his calls so it wasn't like they knew how bad he was either.