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O'Brien vs. Kubiak

76Texan

Hall of Fame
As steelb doesn't want to dilute other thread, he had asked me to bring it to a new thread, so here it is.
Fire away, guys.

First on the list for me is the failure of O'Brien to develop guys on the offense.
The Texans had wasted so many draft picks on offense, it's not even funny.

2014.
S'ua Filo (2nd), C.J. Fido (3), Savage (4) - All gone with basically ZERO contribution

2015
Strong (3), Mumphrey (5) - Both gone with little contribution; nothing to write home about.

2016
Fuller (1) - Good speed, bad hands (the first year 4 drops, second year 5 drops, last year he dropped 3 would-have-been TD passes in the KC game.)
https://www.12up.com/posts/video-watch-all-3-of-will-fuller-s-dropped-passes-from-week-6-01dq5xv01hzy
Misses 22 games already, plus one play-off year; ineffective in another play-off series due to health. Is he worth a second contract (which will be big based on his draft status) if he's going to be injured again - could be very important IF there's a play-off for the Texans.)
Martin (2) - Up and down career so far, no final grade yet.
Braxton Miller (3) - Gone after two years.
Tyler Irvin (4) - Gone - Return specialist that, I suspect, not too many people remember.

2017
Watson (1) - steelb thought he had regressed (LOL)
Foreman (3) - Who???
Davenport (4) - Gone; bad while here.

2018
Rankin (3) - steelb thought of as trash, both here and in KC
Aikins (3) - Finally a guy who might have something. 53 catches, 643 yards, 2TDs
compared to Owen Daniels (both guys were drafted 98th overall), 97 catches, 1,140 yards, 8 TDs

2019 -
Too early to tell, and I haven' re-watched all the games yet.
T. Howard (1) - Note that he was drafted 23rd overall while D.Brown was drafted at 27th (and DB play at LT).
Sharping (2) - Too early to tell.
Warring (3) - Injured already.

................................................

So does it look like that the Texans were able to develop guys on the offensive side under O'Brien?
 

JB

Old Curmudgeon
Contributor's Club
As steelb doesn't want to dilute other thread, he had asked me to bring it to a new thread, so here it is.
Fire away, guys.

First on the list for me is the failure of O'Brien to develop guys on the offense.
The Texans had wasted so many draft picks on offense, it's not even funny.


2019 -
Too early to tell, and I haven' re-watched all the games yet.
T. Howard (1) - Note that he was drafted 23rd overall while D.Brown was drafted at 27th (and DB play at LT).
Sharping (2) - Too early to tell.
Warring (3) - Injured already.

................................................

So does it look like that the Texans were able to develop guys on the offensive side under O'Brien?
Wasn't everything before '19 RS responsibility?
 

76Texan

Hall of Fame
And did what he was brought in to do.
got Myers in trade and found Briesel and trained him up as an UDFA.

He also trained Benton on the intricacies of how to run/coach the ZBS. Do you really think Kubiak was teaching OL play?
Gibbs was with the Falcons in 2004-06 and out of football in 07.
Myers were drafted by the Broncos in 2005.
Kubiak was the one that knows about him.

Brisiel came to the Texans in 2006, and started 4 games already for Kubiak in 2007.
 

76Texan

Hall of Fame
Wasn't everything before '19 RS responsibility?
Developing players? NO

Kubiak was able to develop some UDFAs and low-round draft picks, cast-offs, you name it.

Besides, Rick Smith brought all the goods for Kubiak from 2007 on, just the same.
 
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76Texan

Hall of Fame
If he was the person responsible for the 6 yrs of drafting I would agree with you.

He wasn't, This will truly be the 1st yr that he's had full control of the draft/FA. I'm excited to see what he can do. I liked the moves he made after Gaine was fired.
On the same note, Rick Smith brought all the goods for Kubiak starting with 2007; and he was able to develop the players.
Many of these players went on to other teams with good second contracts.

Even with Casserly, who many thought a lousy GM, Kubiak was able to make decent-to-good players out of them (according to their draft slot, of course): Spencer (until he got hurt), Winston, OD, Lundy (temporarily), and David Anderson.
 

Texecutioner

Hall of Fame
What kind of poor life do you have to have to still be trying to whine about Kubiak???

Has this not been the one of the most irrelevant things for certain posters to constantly bring up?

We're all trying to figure out how to get rid of OB as a coach somehow, and there are posters in here that are still trying to argue about Kubiak and his failed legacy here. :facepalm:
 

thunderkyss

It's good to be me... again.
Staff member
Contributor's Club
As steelb doesn't want to dilute other thread, he had asked me to bring it to a new thread, so here it is.
Fire away, guys.
It's asinine (& a waste of time) to compare Kubiak to O'Brien as a coach. As a person who instructs, guide, & develop players. One was able to do it. The other, not so much.

But if we're talking about game planning, game management, & situational management it's more of a wash with a slight edge going to Kubiak.
 

powda

Baby can you dig your man?
I dont hate O'Brien yet as a gm. The clowney trade was crap though. I suppose he signed off on the oz deal to even if we had a gm at the time. Despite that, hes made some aggressive talent grabs. I'd like OB the GM to tell OB the hc he needs an oc and a new ol coach.

Kubiak was a far better game manager with a legit scheme. Once Schaub dropped off though there was no saving him.

I don't think either have been good in the draft. I'm not sure how we really compare to other teams ,but we just bomb far to often outside the 1st round.

It's a draw imo.
 

TheKDog

Hall of Fame
Contributor's Club
@schadjoe: Bill O’Brien noted of Laremy Tunsil: “I feel really good about being able to get a proven left tackle to protect Deshaun Watson. They’re hard to draft. They’re hard to develop.”

Our new GM admitted last year that drafting and developing is too hard for him
 
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welsh texan

All Pro
Under Kubiak we drafted D and developed players on O.
OTOH OB has wasted a ton of high picks on offensive talent that he then fails to coach up.

Easy to allow the frustrations under Kubiak to fade into memory however. The O was lightning between the 20’s and ineffectual in the red zone.

Took him an age to find a RB.

Refused to move on from Schaub when it was clear it was time.

Spent too long with his guys as DC before having Wade imposed on him.

I was glad he won the super bowl a couple of years after leaving, felt he was a good guy and deserved success, but it was never going to happen for him as a Texan.

Im ready to move on from OB now in much the same way I was ready to move on from Kubes when the time came.
 
Normally I’d agree this this a pointless thread but....it’s the off season and we don’t have much else to talk about beyond the normal “X sucks”. Carry on then.
 

76Texan

Hall of Fame
Normally I’d agree this this a pointless thread but....it’s the off season and we don’t have much else to talk about beyond the normal “X sucks”. Carry on then.
That's probably because you know that, eventually - when all the cards have been laid out, O'Brien loses out to Kubiak.

Right now, I just want to settle the part about the draft and players' development.
 

76Texan

Hall of Fame
I dont hate O'Brien yet as a gm. The clowney trade was crap though. I suppose he signed off on the oz deal to even if we had a gm at the time. Despite that, hes made some aggressive talent grabs. I'd like OB the GM to tell OB the hc he needs an oc and a new ol coach.

Kubiak was a far better game manager with a legit scheme. Once Schaub dropped off though there was no saving him.

I don't think either have been good in the draft. I'm not sure how we really compare to other teams ,but we just bomb far to often outside the 1st round.

It's a draw imo.
I don't see how you can call it a draw when:
(1) You agree that Kubiak is a better game manager with a legit scheme.
(2) You haven't refuted how Kubiak failed in the draft as compared to O'Brien's draft record that I had laid out in the OP.
 
That's probably because you know that, eventually - when all the cards have been laid out, O'Brien loses out to Kubiak.

Right now, I just want to settle the part about the draft and players' development.
Oh please, pretty much everyone on this board has already made up their minds. We’re not laying cards on the table we’re arguing circumstantial evidence that each person will interpret based on their own bias. For every pro-Kubiak argument there is a pro-OB argument that is just as good to a NEUTRAL person. Nobody on here is neutral, or at least not enough to not have an opinion, so this is basically all in fun.

If you think this thread is really going to settle the OB vs Kubiak argument then prepare for disappointment. End of the day nobodies position on it will have changed.

But I said it’s the off season and a boring one at that so, carry on.
 

powda

Baby can you dig your man?
I don't see how you can call it a draw when:
(1) You agree that Kubiak is a better game manager with a legit scheme.
(2) You haven't refuted how Kubiak failed in the draft as compared to O'Brien's draft record that I had laid out in the OP.

I didn't see your op post and didn't realize I had anything to refute. I'll look for it. One of kubes biggest downfalls was his allegiance to guys like Bush on defense. Do you have a case study on defense and special teams vs the other?

I don't have a horse in the race and openly said I have no ideal how our draft picks compare to other teams. Or how the 2 coaches compare in that regard. What's the winning percentage for each while coaching here? Ultimately I think we're trying hard to date the least hefty girl at a Jenny craig convention. I can be swayed.
 

TheKDog

Hall of Fame
Contributor's Club
Hopkins and watt were drafted under Kubiak. Basically 2 of the top 3 players on the team 6 years later.
 

FuzzyLogic

Mathematically Possible
OK - I like Kubiak (especially as an offensive mind) and everyone is more than welcome to discuss whatever topic they choose too, but I do have a question...

What does this matter? Let's say you get everyone to agree that Kubiak was the greatest coach in Texans history, a very low bar with limited competitors - what difference will it make? He's gone, and I highly doubt he is ever coming back.

OB IS the coach - and by all signs is going nowhere anytime soon - so still yearning for Kubiak or any different coach is just an exercise in futility.
 
You and @maverick512000 need to pound it out and have a bbq. We've got something like 6 more months of real offseason to go. Sh*TS going to get way more trivial then this.
Meh, I won't speak for Kdog but for me the punching back and forth is fun. Doesn't mean I dont mean what I say but also doesn't mean I have any real hard feelings. I've told Kdog before I actually have a lot of respect for him in that unlike some other posters he doesnt just put anybody that talks crap to him on ignore. He takes the hit and then gives one back.
 
Hopkins and watt were drafted under Kubiak. Basically 2 of the top 3 players on the team 6 years later.
Now back to our regularly scheduled arguement.

Both of them were drafted by RS, it is well documented that RS was actually very good at first round picks. Watt had a good season in 12 but his historic season was 14 OBs first year. Likewise Hopkins was drafted in 13 and his rookie season was pretty good but he has become the player we know under OB.
 
I'm not yearning for Kubiak. But there are times where it's appropriate to say, "Kubiak did more with less." & some people can't handle it even though they know it's true.
Did he though? We havent gotten in further in the playoffs and Schaub may not have been Watson but he was what Kubiak had designed the system for.

I'm by no means saying that OB is in any way better than Kubiak, in some regards he's far worse but there are some things he has done better than Kubiak. To me they are about the same. I think Watson would be doing better under Kubiak but I think Schaub would have done better under OB.

Sad fact of Texans football that we cant get our GM, HC and QB all on the same page. Maybe that's the thinking behind naming OB GM, at least then it's only two people that have to be on the same page.
 
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banned1976

American
Now back to our regularly scheduled arguement.

Both of them were drafted by RS, it is well documented that RS was actually very good at first round picks. Watt had a good season in 12 but his historic season was 14 OBs first year. Likewise Hopkins was drafted in 13 and his rookie season was pretty good but he has become the player we know under OB.
And then he put Watt in the backfield with Vince Wilfork in another playoff disaster. OB owns two of the dumbest play calls in Houston sports playoff history. So he has that over Kubiak.


At his best OB’s play calling is erratic. Kubiak was at least consistent. And I was never a big Kubiak fan.
 

Dishman

Miss Ya Blue
What kind of poor life do you have to have to still be trying to whine about Kubiak???

Has this not been the one of the most irrelevant things for certain posters to constantly bring up?

We're all trying to figure out how to get rid of OB as a coach somehow, and there are posters in here that are still trying to argue about Kubiak and his failed legacy here. :facepalm:
A weird but expected thread. I'm surprised it took this long.
 
And then he put Watt in the backfield with Vince Wilfork in another playoff disaster. OB owns two of the dumbest play calls in Houston sports playoff history. So he has that over Kubiak.


At his best OB’s play calling is erratic. Kubiak was at least consistent. And I was never a big Kubiak fan.
This I will agree with, Kubiak was overly cautious and was never aggressive when he needed to be but at least he didn’t make you scratch your head wondering “what the hell was he thinking”.

OB is more aggressive but picks the weirdest times to pull something different out of his hat. Sometimes it does work, that trick play against NE, but other times he fake punts on his own 35.
 

TheKDog

Hall of Fame
Contributor's Club
Now back to our regularly scheduled arguement.

Both of them were drafted by RS, it is well documented that RS was actually very good at first round picks. Watt had a good season in 12 but his historic season was 14 OBs first year. Likewise Hopkins was drafted in 13 and his rookie season was pretty good but he has become the player we know under OB.
So every bad pick is Rick Smith's. Every good pick is obrien's. But under Kubiak, every good pick is Rick Smith's.
 

TheKDog

Hall of Fame
Contributor's Club
This I will agree with, Kubiak was overly cautious and was never aggressive when he needed to be but at least he didn’t make you scratch your head wondering “what the hell was he thinking”.

OB is more aggressive but picks the weirdest times to pull something different out of his hat. Sometimes it does work, that trick play against NE, but other times he fake punts on his own 35.
OB is not aggressive. He runs way too much
 

TheKDog

Hall of Fame
Contributor's Club
And then he put Watt in the backfield with Vince Wilfork in another playoff disaster. OB owns two of the dumbest play calls in Houston sports playoff history. So he has that over Kubiak.


At his best OB’s play calling is erratic. Kubiak was at least consistent. And I was never a big Kubiak fan.
Kubiaks playcalling was good enough for several top 10 offenses and a super bowl, should be noted
 

justmy2cents

Rookie
Contributor's Club
@schadjoe: Bill O’Brien noted of Laremy Tunsil: “I feel really good about being able to get a proven left tackle to protect Deshaun Watson. They’re hard to draft. They’re hard to develop.”

Our new GM admitted last year that drafting and developing is too hard for him

Yeah .... they ARE hard to draft and develop .... but if you really are the smartest guy in the room, you should be able to assess and acquire talent at an extremely high level .... not to mention, employing an imaginative offensive scheme. We still don't have an identity !
 

thunderkyss

It's good to be me... again.
Staff member
Contributor's Club
Did he though? We havent gotten in further in the playoffs and Schaub may not have been Watson but he was what Kubiak had designed the system for.
Absolutely. Follow my posts, as an OC there's no question Kubiak did more with less. If he had an OL with five 1st & 2nd round picks, Hopkins, Fuller, & a thousand yard rusher... c'mon.


To me they are about the same.
That's what I said. But I give a slight edge to Kubiak. Well maybe. Far as I know 2019 is the first season we didn't lose back to back games, where I think Kubiak was good for a three game slide every year.

That's not the kind of thing that will show up on a stat sheet, but I think it's a good marker of the teams progress.

Now if he could do something about those embarrassing blown out losses, regular & post seasons.
 
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So every bad pick is Rick Smith's. Every good pick is obrien's. But under Kubiak, every good pick is Rick Smith's.
Not at all, never said anything about every good pick being OBs. In fact the only players I really think OB hand picked were Hoyer and Mallet, and they traded for them to give the new HC who he wanted, maybe had a hand in Savage but rumor is he wanted Jimmy G. I think it was soon after that friction between RS and OB started and RS drafted who he wanted.

Likewise with a Kubiak I’d guess by around 10 or 11 he didn’t get much say in who was brought in. So no I think pretty much every draft pick from about 10 to when he left was on RS, good and bad.
 
Kubiaks playcalling was good enough for several top 10 offenses and a super bowl, should be noted
No Wade Phillips play calling was good enough to win a SB, Elway handed Kubiak a team built for the Super Bowl and it was all around the defense. All Kubiak has to do was babysit it and use the offense to score a few points, don’t turn the ball over and let the defense rest. Kubiak knew his job and Manning did to, manage the game and win with defense. That’s why Osweiler was benched even though he was actually having wetter season than Manning, Osweiler wanted to win it with offense and that was never going to happen.
 

76Texan

Hall of Fame
Oh please, pretty much everyone on this board has already made up their minds. We’re not laying cards on the table we’re arguing circumstantial evidence that each person will interpret based on their own bias. For every pro-Kubiak argument there is a pro-OB argument that is just as good to a NEUTRAL person. Nobody on here is neutral, or at least not enough to not have an opinion, so this is basically all in fun.

If you think this thread is really going to settle the OB vs Kubiak argument then prepare for disappointment. End of the day nobodies position on it will have changed.

But I said it’s the off season and a boring one at that so, carry on.
I've yet to see/read an argument that declare O'Brien as the winner.
Even steelb was saying that they're about the same.

On the other hand, we've already seen a fairly neutral guy (TK) giving the edge to Kubiak.

Myself, I had brought one point (drafting and player development - in the OP) that gives the first score to Kubiak as nobody can refute it yet.

Still, I don't want to announce 1-0 Kubiak yet.
We've got enough time to see if anybody want to weigh in on that.
 

76Texan

Hall of Fame
No Wade Phillips play calling was good enough to win a SB, Elway handed Kubiak a team built for the Super Bowl and it was all around the defense. All Kubiak has to do was babysit it and use the offense to score a few points, don’t turn the ball over and let the defense rest. Kubiak knew his job and Manning did to, manage the game and win with defense. That’s why Osweiler was benched even though he was actually having wetter season than Manning, Osweiler wanted to win it with offense and that was never going to happen.
When the Texans won with defense, was that Crennel play calling that was good enough or was it O'Brien?


Not at all, never said anything about every good pick being OBs. In fact the only players I really think OB hand picked were Hoyer and Mallet, and they traded for them to give the new HC who he wanted, maybe had a hand in Savage but rumor is he wanted Jimmy G. I think it was soon after that friction between RS and OB started and RS drafted who he wanted.

Likewise with a Kubiak I’d guess by around 10 or 11 he didn’t get much say in who was brought in. So no I think pretty much every draft pick from about 10 to when he left was on RS, good and bad.
Likewise how?

What I read from these paragraphs are that:
You "think" Hoyer and Mallett were OB's hand pick guys, and you "hear rumor" that O'Brien wanted Jimmy G but Rick Smith took Savage instead.
You "guess" that Kubiak didn't have much say who was brought in after round 10 or 11.

I don't SEE any facts.
 
When the Texans won with defense, was that Crennel play calling that was good enough or was it O'Brien?
When the defense won the game it was RAC, when the defense lost the game it was RAC. Same applies to OB and the offense.

Likewise how?

What I read from these paragraphs are that:
You "think" Hoyer and Mallett were OB's hand pick guys, and you "hear rumor" that O'Brien wanted Jimmy G but Rick Smith took Savage instead.
You "guess" that Kubiak didn't have much say who was brought in after round 10 or 11.

I don't SEE any facts.
Really, now you are going to start requiring facts. So should I go back through all your posts and point out every time you gave an opinion and not facts. None of us are in the Texans .org so none of us have “facts” and neither do any of the reporters everyone likes to quote. If hard facts are the requirement then here is then here is one.

Kubiak with the Texans: 8 seasons with the Texans. 3 winning seasons, 2 division titles, 2 playoff wins.

O’Brien with the Texans: 6 seasons with the Texans. 5 winning seasons, 4 division titles, 2 playoff wins.

Does that tell the whole story, hell no but those are the only “facts” we have and if you look at them they say OB is the better coach.
 

76Texan

Hall of Fame
When the defense won the game it was RAC, when the defense lost the game it was RAC. Same applies to OB and the offense.



Really, now you are going to start requiring facts. So should I go back through all your posts and point out every time you gave an opinion and not facts. None of us are in the Texans .org so none of us have “facts” and neither do any of the reporters everyone likes to quote. If hard facts are the requirement then here is then here is one.

Kubiak with the Texans: 8 seasons with the Texans. 3 winning seasons, 2 division titles, 2 playoff wins.

O’Brien with the Texans: 6 seasons with the Texans. 5 winning seasons, 4 division titles, 2 playoff wins.

Does that tell the whole story, hell no but those are the only “facts” we have and if you look at them they say OB is the better coach.
Oh, there are more facts coming, you can rest assured.
Pray tell me where I present opinions as facts in this thread.

.....

Facts are everywhere in the OP.
You have yet to counter them.
 


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