markn
All Pro
it doesn't mask anything. It stops your balls from shrinking due to steroids.
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Cushing suspended 4 games for violating policy on performance-enhancing substances
- Thread starter nero THE zero
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it doesn't mask anything. It stops your balls from shrinking due to steroids.
Nawzer
Alienz
I will try and answer this. From my understanding it takes 2 to 3 weeks for hCG to be completely effective. So, you can't expect your testicles to return to their normal size after using it for one or two days. You have to understand that taking anabolic steroids changes the biochemistry of your body and the regular chemical pathways need to time to reestablish themselves. Therefore, if Cushing was tested a day or two after he started taking hCG he would have failed his test. His body would still show the presence of steroids or whatever he took.
I think in Brian's case the NFL did test him probably mulitple times or they had multiple samples. And the lab that performed the testing probably did take into account all these variables. Also, once you take hCG there is the issue of your body not producing enough natural testosterone. We don't know what the dosage amount was in Cushing's case, but let's assume it was pretty high dosage. Because hCG essentially replaces your body's natural leutinizing hormone (LH), he might have had to take something like Nolva to help his body produce testosterone. I don't know what else they had him tested for, but I would not be surprised if did test positive for other things. Now, you don't need to necessarily take hCG if you were anabolic steroids for a short period of time like 4 or 5 weeks. But if Cushing did take large doses for long periods of time he had to take hCG to return his body to normality. And if he did take a large amount of anabolic steroids his hCG dosage might have been pretty high during testing.
In my opinion, I think Cushing did take anabolic steroids but it was probably before he played a regular season game. I think the tests were done in September and I would not be surprised if he took them during the summer months and started taking hCG before the season started. But this is all speculation in my part. I think the NFL was right because it seems like they took their time reaching to this conclusion.
steroid users are not running HCG after their cycles anymore. that is old school thought that it would establish natural testosterone levels faster, when it actually does the opposite shutting down your natural testosterone.. but they are using HCG during the cycle to keep the testicles running properly because when they are on steroids the drugs stop testosterone production which pretty much kills all other functions of the testicles.. so the use of HCG brings the testicles back to life while on steroids and it also makes post cycle recovery a lot easier to deal with.. if Cushing was post cycle he would have been busted for clomid and/or tamoxifen.
it is possible he could have been using the HCG solo for the new fad HCG diet but that is such a load of crap that I really doubt a professional would buy into that garbage.
There is no other reason to use hcg besides as a diet supp and to get your testicles working while synthetics are running through your veins.. now he could have naturally elavated hcg levels due to many different factors.
it is possible he could have been using the HCG solo for the new fad HCG diet but that is such a load of crap that I really doubt a professional would buy into that garbage.
There is no other reason to use hcg besides as a diet supp and to get your testicles working while synthetics are running through your veins.. now he could have naturally elavated hcg levels due to many different factors.
Kaiser Toro
Native Mod
DeMaurice Smith on PEDs
http://content.usatoday.com/communi...he-game-cheat-the-fans-and-cheat-themselves/1
http://content.usatoday.com/communi...he-game-cheat-the-fans-and-cheat-themselves/1
I was curious about this hCG as diet fad, so I googled it. Turns out this stuff is sold on Amazon.
Homeopathic HCG Weight Loss Formula + Amino Acid and Vitamins B6 & B12
Homeopathic hCG - Oral hCG Drops - Weight Loss Diet
Not that this makes it acceptable, but I just found it interesting. Does it work? Might be a lot easier than P90X!
Bob McNair seems confused:
Bob is protecting his boy! I like it!
eriadoc
Texan-American
So in your opinion, do you think Cushing cheated?
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
Ask ESPN about rumors and misinformation and "unnamed sources."
Ole Miss Texan
Hall of Fame
If a player takes steroids (in the sense that we're discussing), yes I think he's cheating.
But let's be clear: Just because a player takes something on the "banned substance list", doesn't mean he's necessarily cheating. Breaking the rules? yes. Cheating? Maybe not.
Example: A substance is on the list solely because it can be used to mask the use of a steroid. The substance does not enhance performance in any way, shape or form. (1) Player took this substance to mask the steroids he had used. Yes player cheated and broke the rules. (2) Player took the substance however had not used steroids or any other PED. No, the player did not cheat but yes he broke the rules.
In either case, the rules were broken and should be disciplined unless there are mitigating circumstances. In one scenario I think a player cheated, in another I don't think the player cheated.
If the Ref blows his whistle and throws a flag because the clock ran out and Schaub didn't snap the ball in time, I think Schaub broke the rules and we should get a penalty but I wouldn't say Schaub cheated. Same application in my mind.
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
I find it very difficult to put together a case where he didn't know what he was doing rather than not expecting his activities to be found out.
wagonhed
Team Gruden
Did Cushing cheat? The answer to this question isn't completely cut and dry, but it is close.
The NFL has official rules that players are theoretically supposed to abide by. Then there is a set of rules that players actually abide by. The rules might overlap, but they aren't the same.
For example, during games, the OL is not allowed to hold, or do any of that dirty stuff. But we all know holding and dirty stuff happens on every play. Two sets of rules, the ones in the rulebook and the ones the players abide by.
Now noone calls the entire OL cheaters because they get away with holding on every play. It's only cheating when you get caught. If and only if you get a flag thrown on you for holding, you were cheating. That's how the NFL works.
So now we can answer the question about Cushing. Cushing cheated by having elevated levels of hCG, a banned substance, in his urine - but that's it. He did not cheat by taking steroids, or HGH, or speed, or anything else, because he didn't get caught. Cushing cheated and got caught for a miniscule amount of a non-steroidal non-performance enhancing substance. Was he cheating? Yeah. Did he cheat by taking a steroid cycle before that? Nope.
So is he a cheater? Yeah. Everyone that has had a flag thrown on them is a cheater. But think about this - which form of cheating affects the outcome of the game more? Elevated levels of hCG, or holding a defensive player?
One more thought. Players can get suspended for marijuana and all sorts of other things. Are they cheaters? Think about it. They broke the rules of the NFL, therefore they cheated. But having marijuana in your urine has about as much effect on the integrity of the game as having hCG in your urine. Neither influence the play on the field.
What's the point? It's only cheating if you get caught. But not all cheating influences the outcome of the game. Getting caught holding and getting caught taking steroids (like Merriman did) both influence the outcome of the game. The others, not so much.
The NFL has official rules that players are theoretically supposed to abide by. Then there is a set of rules that players actually abide by. The rules might overlap, but they aren't the same.
For example, during games, the OL is not allowed to hold, or do any of that dirty stuff. But we all know holding and dirty stuff happens on every play. Two sets of rules, the ones in the rulebook and the ones the players abide by.
Now noone calls the entire OL cheaters because they get away with holding on every play. It's only cheating when you get caught. If and only if you get a flag thrown on you for holding, you were cheating. That's how the NFL works.
So now we can answer the question about Cushing. Cushing cheated by having elevated levels of hCG, a banned substance, in his urine - but that's it. He did not cheat by taking steroids, or HGH, or speed, or anything else, because he didn't get caught. Cushing cheated and got caught for a miniscule amount of a non-steroidal non-performance enhancing substance. Was he cheating? Yeah. Did he cheat by taking a steroid cycle before that? Nope.
So is he a cheater? Yeah. Everyone that has had a flag thrown on them is a cheater. But think about this - which form of cheating affects the outcome of the game more? Elevated levels of hCG, or holding a defensive player?
One more thought. Players can get suspended for marijuana and all sorts of other things. Are they cheaters? Think about it. They broke the rules of the NFL, therefore they cheated. But having marijuana in your urine has about as much effect on the integrity of the game as having hCG in your urine. Neither influence the play on the field.
What's the point? It's only cheating if you get caught. But not all cheating influences the outcome of the game. Getting caught holding and getting caught taking steroids (like Merriman did) both influence the outcome of the game. The others, not so much.
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
This is not technichally true. If he took it alone without cycling, it would increase his testosterone levels above levels he would normally carry. If he was cycling off of steroids, it is likely that his testosterone levels would have been affected adversely for a period of time without the addition of HCG. In each case, it would have to be considered that without the HCG, performance level would be lower.........and with it, ENHANCED.
Wait a second. so hCG does not mask steroids in the test?
The only reason it is on the banned substance test is because it is commonly taken by juicers after a steroid cycle to restore lost testosterone?
So the NFL has this on its banned substance list not because it is a performance enhancing drug...and not because it masks a performance enhancing drug... but because one of its common uses is AFTER a performance enhancing drug has been taken?
Are you kidding me? Does no one else see how freakin lame this is? This is like them banning muscle growth. if you bulk up it doesnt mean you took steroids, and if you bulked up it certainly wouldnt cause you to fail a PED test.. but if the league can eyeball you and see that you bulked up, they ban you because it is a common effect from steroid use.
It seems to me that if this information on hCG is correct.. then the only possible reason that it is on the banned substance list is because the league knows that they cant test a person through the offseason.. so their only defense is to look for the hCG that can commonly be used after a steroid cycle. Well.. that is just injustice waiting to happen.. they need to figure out a better way to test their players, so that when a person gets in trouble its for steroid use or for a masking agent.. not for some substance that can be found in many supplements but is also commonly used after a cycle.
The only reason it is on the banned substance test is because it is commonly taken by juicers after a steroid cycle to restore lost testosterone?
So the NFL has this on its banned substance list not because it is a performance enhancing drug...and not because it masks a performance enhancing drug... but because one of its common uses is AFTER a performance enhancing drug has been taken?
Are you kidding me? Does no one else see how freakin lame this is? This is like them banning muscle growth. if you bulk up it doesnt mean you took steroids, and if you bulked up it certainly wouldnt cause you to fail a PED test.. but if the league can eyeball you and see that you bulked up, they ban you because it is a common effect from steroid use.
It seems to me that if this information on hCG is correct.. then the only possible reason that it is on the banned substance list is because the league knows that they cant test a person through the offseason.. so their only defense is to look for the hCG that can commonly be used after a steroid cycle. Well.. that is just injustice waiting to happen.. they need to figure out a better way to test their players, so that when a person gets in trouble its for steroid use or for a masking agent.. not for some substance that can be found in many supplements but is also commonly used after a cycle.
Ahhh ok.. well my next question then would be "does hCG give the player benefits on the same level as steroid use, and if so..does it need to be a banned substance or is it simple another supplement like the hundreds of others that NFL players take every day?"
wagonhed
Team Gruden
From what I know of hCG, it doesn't do enough of anything to ever be taken alone (unless for that fat loss thing). I've never in my life heard of someone using hCG to get stronger or bigger, and if noone does it, it's probably because it doesn't work.
Cjeremy635
Overtraining
Frankly, I don't really care what he does to his body. I'm not sure if he took juice or not, doesn't matter to me. I just think the team is gonna miss him a lot during the first month of the season, especially when we really need to begin starting the seasons off with a bang. If he's gonna take roids, and continue to play in the NFL, I think he should buy him a house in another country for the off season. Does the NFL do sampling on you if you're out of the country? I'm just saying.....he could do a 3-4 month cycle, get cleaned up, then move back to the states in time for OTAs ans training camp to begin.....with a clean system. I guess I'm not really frowning on him if he did do it because I don't think that steroids are really that bad, if done correctly and you run an acceptable PCT. Just my 2 cents.
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
It is on the "NFL Banned Substance List" and considered a PED for the reasons I layed out. And NO, given alone, it does not offer the same level of "benefits" as steroids. However, to also address Wagonhead's comments. HCG has not been usually found to be effective as a fad fat removal diet, because the ORAL (as opposed to injectable) supplements used have never been shown to be absorbed to any significant extent. HCG alone can elevate a middle of the road testosterone level to significantly elevated level. and thus enhance performance........but not anywhere as high as steroids can potentially affect. And taking it for long periods of time can also shut down the body's own testosterone production as well as produce gynecomastia (man boobs). (Another reason that leads to the conclusion of his use to cycle off of steroids).
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
We've all done things that we are not so proud of at one point or another. But I'm certainly glad that I have not tried to make it through life with the philosphy of "It's only cheating when you get caught."
Texan_Bill
Hall of Fame
You rang?Doc Jean, I didn't live my life by the motto "It's only cheating when you get caught", I've lived my life by the motto "If you ain't cheatin' you ain't tryin'".
BigTimeTexanFan
Rookie
For those who don't know:http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...&ndsp=21&tbs=isch:1&ei=YAXqS8OFAoH48Aagg53gDg
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
This is/was a philosophy that always bothered me. And it really bothered me because it was my Dad's philosophy on life and my dad was a Sheriff's Deputy and that seemed wrong to me.
My philosophy has always been that if you don't want someone to find out you did it, then you probably shouldn't be doing it. Not always, but usually. If you're going to meet some woman after work and you don't want your wife to find out about it because she's going to be ticked off about it and suspect you of cheating, then you shouldn't do it. If you're going to take some drugs in the offseason when no one will ever find out about it and it's going to make you perform better, BUT you don't want word of it to get out to the general public, then you shouldn't do it.
BUT. I'm not an elite athlete. It's a different culture and it has to be. Like I said in another post, competitive athletes are (and should be) looking for competitive edges and they're going to want to keep those competitive edges secret so that they can out perform the people they're competing against. And if you tell one of these athletes, you may be tested here and you may be tested there but you won't be tested in between, they're probably going to take that as tacit approval to do something between those two points as long as they can cover up the evidence before the test.
I just think that's what it takes to be that level of athlete. It's like that survey they did of olympic athletes about if they would take a drug that would cut 10 years off the end of their lives but would guarantee a medal and all of the athletes said they'd take the medal and lose the years. It's a different mindset than most people have.
If they didn't have that mindset, then we'd still have football played by used car salesmen in their off hours like we did 70 years ago.
Ole Miss Texan
Hall of Fame
This is where I'm going with my feelings. I dont' think that's cheating, but it definitely is breaking the rules.
I must first say the post I originally wrote about cheating/breaking rules was intended to be more generic and not specifically addressing the exact drug Cushing used.
With that said, Now here you raise a really good point. And I'm far from knowing enough about this type of stuff to really have an educated opinion. Hell I don't even have a full grasp of testosterone! But is the added testosterone by this drug that big of a benifit? I bring this up with other "chemicals" in mind. And this could start a whole other debate. Gatorade, Power Bars, Protein, Energy Drinks, Vitamin C, Other Vitamins, Other "legal" supplements that theoretically make you healthier and a better athlete and.... "enhance your performance". Where do we draw the line of "well yea it makes you a little better just as a lot of things do" and "this is full blown making you a bionic killing machine". I hope you get my point? And I really am asking... in regards to this hCG and testosterone boost. Is that boost considered a significant difference? Or is it fairly marginal as with taking vitamins to stay healthy.... or even medicines for diabetics that may have off-whack levels of glucose?
wagonhed
Team Gruden
I never said that I lived my life by that philosophy, or even that NFL players live by that philosophy. But it's tough to deny that that is the philosophy of NFL football players in their capacity as NFL football players. That's the nature of the game as it has been passed down through the years. It's not any one of their faults, nor is there anything any of them can do about it.
I do know two things though. First of all, if you aren't breaking the official rules off the field, you aren't going to make it, and neither is your team. A team with 100% clean players will go 0-16. No doubt in my mind about that. Secondly, if you're not breaking the official rules on the field, your team won't make it either. Tell your linemen that under no circumstances should they hold, or DBs sneak a hand onto the receiver, or trip up the RB from the bottom of the pile, or whatever else. Maybe you won't go 0-16, but you won't be winning many games. In a game where wins and losses means millions of dollars, that's just how things go. That's the nature of the beast. And that's where that cheating philosophy comes from, even if it's not the kind of philosophy you would want to model your life on.
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
No, it won't make you a bionic killing machine, but it will give you enough boost in most cases to give you an edge. It's like the stupid practice that some people follow of taking extra thyroid when they have a mid normal level and want to boost it to the high boundary to gain more pep and energy and lose weight due an increase of metabolism. It is, indeed, a moderate boost in all categories........but at the risk of knocking out a heart valve (since introducing exogenous forms of the same substance that comes from your own body's natural production virtually always has unique additional risks).
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
Would you want to be looking up at me with knife in hand while you're on the operating table..........knowing that I cheated my way through my training?
wagonhed
Team Gruden
No, I sure as heck wouldn't, but I probably wouldn't have a better chance with anyone else. But like I said I don't make the rules... and I'd be willing to bet more than a few college kids cheated their way into med school, or cheated while in med school to finish higher in their class. At the same time, I think the medical profession is one in which the only way to truly be good at what you do is to be good at what you do. I mean you could get ahead business-wise by being savvy and sneaky, but cheating won't help you be the best surgeon like Dr. Shepard is !!!!
It makes no difference to me. I'm on my way into a profession where cheating is basically impossible and wouldn't make a difference anyway. So luckily I don't have to worry about this kind of thing!
Kulluminatii
Veteran
Texan_Bill
Hall of Fame
wagonhed
Team Gruden
Right!! Why did I even click that link?
My eyes!
Man, if anything ever deserved neg rep...
GuerillaBlack
Hall of Fame
Texan_Bill
Hall of Fame
Texan_Bill
Hall of Fame
I hear ya GB... *damn*
Goldensilence
hipster elite
Son of a ***** that's twice today I clicked on a link here I shouldn't have.
That's just all sorts of wrong.
That's just all sorts of wrong.
AnthonyE
Lurker
Ole Miss Texan
Hall of Fame
Starting to sound like it enhances performance...
lolI guess if a player's levels were "naturally below normal" then taking this is probably acceptable? Then of course they should probabaly have a Doctor's note and have permission for the League. Now obviously if the player's level are below normal due to the side effects of takin' da juice - then that's a diff. story.
Please say it ain't so Cush.
eriadoc
Texan-American
I get what you're saying here, but the only reason for #2 in your scenario, given the substance he was caught using, is that he wants to be a Mommy. So I can assume he was either using it for the post-steroid benefits in men, or he wants to be a Mommy.
Thats pretty cut and dry. Arent there supplements that have hGC in them? I got that impression from other posters.
There are alot of rumors flying around...things that ive seen in posts but havent seen any support for.
What I know:
1) The failed test was in september
2) The banned substance was hGC
3) He was confident that his excuse for failing the test was adequate and that the "charges" would be dropped.
4) He passed 19 more PED tests throughout the year.
5) This ruling took abnormally long to be decided.
6) hGC is not on the PED banned substance list because it is a performance enhancer, but because it is commonly used after a steroid cycle.
What ive heard but cant confirm:
1) He took a lie detector test about taking steroids and passed it.
2) He and his S&C coach took a supplement with full knowledge that it had a banned substance. This supplement was not a steroid.
3) hGC is a common component in many energy boosting supplements.
4) The hGC levels in the PED test were so low that some doctors disagreed that he failed the test.
So..I dunno. Im not yet prepared to say that he had hGC in his system because of steroids.
eriadoc
Texan-American
Sometimes things really are just as they seem. These guys have a lot on the line giving them incentive to use steroids. In many ways, I don't blame them. In fact, I'm perfectly comfortable saying he took steroids, and therefore cheated. The thing is, I don't really care, except for the fact that he got popped and now hurts the team.
It's naive to think that a significant portion of the NFL is not on steroids, so players really do have to even up the playing field. It's a nasty cycle of escalation. It's also naive to think that Cushing didn't take steroids at some point prior to this hCG test, IMO. I understand people wanting to believe in the guy, but it's getting to the point where you have to really reach to make the argument that he's clean.
See...I disagree. I think that the more information we have gotten, the easier it has become to see that things are not cut and dry, and he may NOT have done anything wrong. Or more specifically..that he did not CHEAT.
If he is simply guilty of taking steroids.. then some things dont add up for me.
He passed steroid tests all through the season. I dont know enough about steroids to say if that means something or not, but my assumption would be to say that he was playing well without any help from steroids.
He was confident that he would not be punished for the failed test.. which is not a common frame of mind for a guilty person. It seems to me that he thought he genuinely had a good reason for the hGC in his system and that the league would agree with him.
Then you look at some of the other issues..like an abnormally long time for the league to make its ruling, which could mean that there was some debate over whether or not the ruling was fair. And some of the unconfirmed things like doctors not agreeing that he had high hGC levels, and the lie detector test.
All of that, in my mind, comes together and makes me LESS confident to make any concrete conclusions about what Cushing did.
I dont buy into the "everyone in the NFL juices" theory... not because I dont think its possible, but because I dont have any evidence to support it and see no reason to support a negative rumor like that.
Texecutioner
Hall of Fame
We don't seem to agree that much on most issues Eriadoc, but you're spot on here and have been on all your posts regarding this. I tried to rep you on this one, but couldn't. Any way, great post.
With the statement you quoted, plus the 2 negative tests after being notified he originally tested positive, plus passing all the random tests, plus the amount of time it has taken for this thing to get to this point....
I'm starting to smell a rat. Can't think of any motive anyone would have... but this is just not shaking out.
So if I wanted to become a bionic killing machine...
hypothetically...
Could you do that?
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
So if I wanted to become a bionic killing machine...
hypothetically...
Could you do that?
"Gentlemen, we can rebuild him. We have the technology. We have the capability to build the world's first bionic man. Thunderkyss will be that man. We can make him better than he was before. Better, stronger, faster."
--- CloakNNNdagger
Malloy
Hall of Fame
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
It has been previously mentioned that marijuana may give a false positive elevation of HCG. I have even seen this on cancer web sites dealing with HCG based cancers. I searched the medical literature and could find only one older evidence-based study on the subject. The full text identified the involved subjects as chronic users.
Marijuana use does not spuriously elevate serum human chorionic gonadotropin levels.
Braunstein GD, Thompson R, Gross S, Soares JR.
Interestingly enough, these cancer sites, supported by studies, admit that cigarette smokers will consistently demonstrate a decrease in HCG, approximately 20%.
It is universally accepted that smoking decreases athletic performance.
Even if one would try to deny the findings of the above cited study, I would not want to try to explain away an increased HCG level caused by marijuana smoking. I would hope and believe that if Cushing is concerned enough about what goes into his body as relates to performance, that he would think twice as an athlete before indulging.
There are still those that believe that marijuana can enhance performance
No legitimate medical research has found anything but the opposite.
Dr. Wadler is a world-reknowned expert on the issue of marijuana and sports performance. You may find his REVIEW ARTICLE on the subject presented by ESPN (2007), if nothing else, interesting and informative.
Marijuana use does not spuriously elevate serum human chorionic gonadotropin levels.
Braunstein GD, Thompson R, Gross S, Soares JR.
Interestingly enough, these cancer sites, supported by studies, admit that cigarette smokers will consistently demonstrate a decrease in HCG, approximately 20%.
It is universally accepted that smoking decreases athletic performance.
Even if one would try to deny the findings of the above cited study, I would not want to try to explain away an increased HCG level caused by marijuana smoking. I would hope and believe that if Cushing is concerned enough about what goes into his body as relates to performance, that he would think twice as an athlete before indulging.
There are still those that believe that marijuana can enhance performance
No legitimate medical research has found anything but the opposite.
Dr. Wadler is a world-reknowned expert on the issue of marijuana and sports performance. You may find his REVIEW ARTICLE on the subject presented by ESPN (2007), if nothing else, interesting and informative.
SheTexan
Hall of Fame
Interesting that this came out two weeks after the schedule came out. Just saying.