infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Nope. Liked the OB hire based on how he was described. He hasn't lived up to those descriptions.
Death to Google Ads! Texans Talk Tip Jar! 🍺😎👍
Thanks for your support!
Your take on who should be our new OC
- Thread starter adama51
- Start date
Nope. Liked the OB hire based on how he was described. He hasn't lived up to those descriptions.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
wasn't he OC for the Colts at 1 point? In any case, I can't see how a change at the OC position is going to help with the improvement of the o-line, the health of the players and roster depth.... which are the true enemies of this season.
It's not, the improvement in personnel falls on Ricky.
Christensen has a history of helping QB's improve.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
If you're asserting something different then that burden falls on you.
adama51
Walk-on
I would have put new GM but we hit that topic every other thread
Talking more Sh!t when called out.
They're your posts not mine # yopur words not mine, you look them up, or I will assume you're talking out your a** . (AGAIN)
Not surprising
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
All this for me is in the same vein as fans of T a&m football have been over the last few years dealing with Sumlin & how Texas fans will be in a few years with Hermann. A&M fans feel like b/c they have money, a great facility and a great fan base and recruit reasonably well, any coach should be able to win big there. Well when that doesn't happen their 1st reaction is to get rid of the HC b/c he's to blame right? Well not necessarily but b/c they need someone or something to blame for why that isn't happening.......
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
BS. Been the convention around here from day 1. (Hardly shocking since it follows every debate/trial form around as the only logical way). You don't get to burden others to disprove your allegations. You don't want to back them up, it's on you.
They're your posts,
You made the claim, I'm not going to look thru 70,000 posts to try to find something that you didn't post. # Liking the BOB post.
You have a much better idea of where to look in those posts to verify what you're asserting than I ever will.
Let me ask you something simple: do you think Deshaun Watson would have looked good in any offensive system?
I do not have an agenda. I've said it before that I'm ambivalent about O'Brien. I could make a case to fire or keep him.
We've got four seasons of history with O'Brien now. And you are admitting that he's far from an offensive genius. Why not find a guy that IS an offensive genius when you've got one of the most dynamic young talents at QB?
Make a case for keeping O'Brien, because so far, I'm not convinced by any of the pro-O'Brien arguments as an offensive system. And he does not seem like the kind of guy that can handle being a head coach without having a finger in the offense, so you have to rule out getting an OC with a non-EP scheme while O'Brien is HC.
The main thing, though, is that he and Rick Smith are not a good team. One of them needs to be better to compliment the other, and we know that Smith is not going anywhere anytime soon.
DW4 is not RG3. He's much more talented, mature and smarter than RG3 could have ever hoped to be.
And RG3 should never have been allowed to play with an injured knee. That's on Shanahan.
Texansballer74
The Marine
We all know that Steel. Dude is saying exactly what the media said when we acquired Bill O'Brien and Ronnie Crennel. Our coaching staff is full of ex Patriots. Lol
Texansballer74
The Marine
Texansballer74
The Marine
Every top problem thinks like that. Some are fortunate to be successful while others are struggling to get back that mojo they once had.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
yes I believe DW4 would look good in any offensive system...So would Brees, Rodgers and knowing the mentality of Brady, probably him too. BoB's no offensive genius, but who is in this modern day NFL? Most of these guys who've been dubbed offensive geniuses aren't really in the class of the true offensive innovators like Bill Walsh and Paul Brown. they're just good playcallers with good qbs that make their jobs easier. BoB is no different in that regard. That's why i kinda honed in on his playcalling b/c that's what all this comes down to and imo, once he got a premium talent under center, you saw how good BoB could be as a playcaller.
As for the case to bring him back, its right in front of everyone:
- 2 division crowns and 1 playoff win in his time here...with boo boo at the QB position leading his team.
- only 1 losing season in 4 years
- & he's finally got a guy who has the skill and mental make up for him to build around. It'd be a shame to bring in another HC with a different offensive system that everyone has to learn...which will take at least 1 year.
Those things above combined with what has happened injury wise to this team this year, at the very least should get him a mulligan for next year. Sure the division was bad, but you know what someone had to win it and no one exactly penalizes the Pats, GB and Seattle for winning bad divisions.
Whether you acknowledge the above as a valid case is a different story all together.
I think he should be back next year, but RS needs a promotion (cause we all know he won't be fired), and a real GM that can put together a good scouting staff should be hired. The mid round picks have to start working out for this team to succeed. Not all players will be all pros but damn they need to be better than cast-offs.
TripleTap
Dead Wood
Please don't give OB any credit for DW4. What happened when DW4 came in was that OB dumped his supposed "complicated" offensive and pick up the Clemson playbook. Naturally, DW4 excelled. And when the plays didn't work, DW4 improvised, all credit to DW4, zip to OB. OB seems like a middlebrow guy, old football, and not the kind of coach to really take advantage of DW4. Plus, we've got about a half-dozen playmakers and the rest of the roster is dog food. Whether that's OB's fault or Smith's, or both we will never know. We can guess, but we won't know.
What we need most of all is a powerful, knowledgeable coach who is a winner in the league, and we need to give him the reins, all of the reins, and let him build a long term powerhouse. It can be done, but it'll take imagination and guts in the Big Office. Have we got that? Does McNair really want to win or is he just satisfied to be a second thought in the league.
You make the call.
(I remind you that Jim Harbaugh already opened the door for returning to the NFL. I read that somewhere.)
What we need most of all is a powerful, knowledgeable coach who is a winner in the league, and we need to give him the reins, all of the reins, and let him build a long term powerhouse. It can be done, but it'll take imagination and guts in the Big Office. Have we got that? Does McNair really want to win or is he just satisfied to be a second thought in the league.
You make the call.
(I remind you that Jim Harbaugh already opened the door for returning to the NFL. I read that somewhere.)
OptimisticTexan
2024 / Rebuilding Block 4 After Playoffs / Texans
I'm just curious...but which OL -are or have been- injured for prolonged periods of time and should be available to bump the outlook and performance of this unit next season?
As for building a team, RS and O'Brien have had 4 years to get this team better overall and the 2017 product just isn't that good...may be why most analyst didn't have the Texans as a lock to win the AFC South much less dominate in the playoffs...if they made it. As for kicking off this building process, 2018 is going to be a little tough since there are no RD1, RD2 or RD5 picks to work with. They're currently sitting in the RD3-8 slot and unfortunately the first 7 teams seem pretty content to lose out and keep their draft positions which will be far more valuable than a couple of additional wins that could move them out of their sweet spot in the draft. Those first 7 spots in RD1 and RD2 in the draft represent some pretty good talent that will help teams in 2018. I hope the draft is as deep as anticipated defensively, which could allow some of the big OL pieces pieces to fall into RD3. This is the teams number one priority!!!
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
What in the world makes him qualified as OC? I'd be more tempted to fire him and bring in a more qualified QB coach.
Hervoyel
BUENO!
Did I miss something (entirely possible, I miss a lot of things) or has there been any indication that the Texans plan to hire an OC after the season? If that's not the case then I don't think they'll hire anybody and that's just the way it is so I don't see much point in throwing out my suggestion for Bill O'Brien & Co. to ignore. There are a bunch of different ways we could go but none of them are going to happen so what's the point?
adama51
Walk-on
No I haven't heard anything. It was just a hypothetical.
My opinion is we really do need an OC. I like BOB but I would rather him stick to HC. I know the failing O isnt completely on his shoulders but I want to see some new blood in this staff to bring a new perspective.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
If OB is still here, I don't see him hiring anyone to be more than an administrator of ta ta da dum "the system."
adama51
Walk-on
I don't think he'll hire someone either truthfully. I at least wanted to give us new topic outside of RS but he seems to bleed into every thread lol(for good reason as he is the personnel guy but still....It gets old)
Uncle Rico
Ur apology should be as loud as Ur disrespect was
I'd bring in Norv Turner as OC if Buttchin is still the coach ... Keep him on his toes. I'd probably go a different route if the HC is fired.
But lets be honest it doesn't really matter who the coach/OC is with Deshaun Watson.
Biggest concern should be Vrabel and his pathetic defensive playcalling. Yes yes I know injuries .. meh. I can only hope some sad team believes Vrabel is HC material and do us a favor.
But lets be honest it doesn't really matter who the coach/OC is with Deshaun Watson.
Biggest concern should be Vrabel and his pathetic defensive playcalling. Yes yes I know injuries .. meh. I can only hope some sad team believes Vrabel is HC material and do us a favor.
edromeo
Rookie
The job OB and Ryan did with altering the offense to suit Watson led to one of the top offenses in the NFL.
OB hangs his hat on offense and bringing an outside OC depending on the new OC's background breaks continuity of the scheme and creates an issue with who calls the plays.
Any experienced OC is gonna want to call the plays.
Bumping Ryan takes the day to day coordination piece off OB's plate and maintain's continuity if the offense and allows OB to continue calling plays.
We can't discount their role in the offense's success. And for Ryan, it continues his progression as an offensive coach from QB Coach to OC to playcaller.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Now you know Ryan was involved in O design?
If OB is still calling plays, what's the difference other than door plate?
If OB is still calling plays, what's the difference other than door plate?
Hervoyel
BUENO!
I don't think any of us know what degree of participation Ryan had in the offensive transformation that took place when Watson became the starter. I tend to mostly credit it to Watson with some part of it being on O'Brien who probably felt like he could call more ambitious plays with a more gifted QB in there. If Ryan did have something to do with the leap in effectiveness and the Texans just want to keep him from being hired away I could see a change in title to OC to maybe keep from losing him.
I kind of doubt it otherwise. He can take the day to day pieces off O'Brien's plate with any title they care to give him. I'd only see it as necessary to promote him to OC if they wanted to reward him and keep someone else from hiring him for an OC position.
I kind of doubt it otherwise. He can take the day to day pieces off O'Brien's plate with any title they care to give him. I'd only see it as necessary to promote him to OC if they wanted to reward him and keep someone else from hiring him for an OC position.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Like his participation with Watson we also don't know Ryan isn't already OB's plate cleaner.
The one thing we do know is he is not steeped in our offense (split time EP & WCO). He's an intern turned position coach. There's zilch on his resume to think he should be a true OC.
Counter argument to your points on keeping O'Brien:
2 division titles in the crappiest division in football for both of those years.
Combined record of the three other teams in 2015 was 16-32.
In 2016 it was 20-28.
Two points: those boo boo QBs were O'Brien's and Rick Smith's picks. No matter how you analyze it, there is no denying that these two are responsible for 100% of those boo boo QBs.
And secondly, being in a crappy division was eventually going to catch up to the Texans as the other teams accumulated high round draft picks. We see the results this year with both the Jags and Titans.
In both of those seasons, they were the only single-digit-win division leaders and would not have qualified for a wildcard spot. They only got in the postseason because of the crappy division
True, but see the above mention of a crappy division. In addition, those winning seasons were all 9-7, with no improvement in win record and a clear and steady decline in offensive production before DW4.
And if we are completely honest about it, those three seasons were mainly the result of RAC's defense more than anything else. Special teams are nothing special and O'Brien's offense is about as pedestrian as it gets.
Teams have turned it around in one year. Kubiak in Denver comes to mind as a recent example. First year with the Broncos and he wins a championship. They had to learn a different offensive and defensive systems, and that only took one offseason..
It is also shortchanging Watson's ability to learn a new system. Look at what he did this year with just one off-season in this system and not getting first team reps.
btw, I'm not saying that your points do not have merit, but rather there is a counter argument for the ones you presented.
I'd say this team still fighting and playing hard after losing so many starters is probably the biggest strength of O'Brien as a HC. He has not lost the lockerroom even with only four wins this season.
If he stays, I think he should devote himself full time to being a HC and delegate OC duties so he can look big picture at both team development and overall game management.
2 division titles in the crappiest division in football for both of those years.
Combined record of the three other teams in 2015 was 16-32.
In 2016 it was 20-28.
Two points: those boo boo QBs were O'Brien's and Rick Smith's picks. No matter how you analyze it, there is no denying that these two are responsible for 100% of those boo boo QBs.
And secondly, being in a crappy division was eventually going to catch up to the Texans as the other teams accumulated high round draft picks. We see the results this year with both the Jags and Titans.
In both of those seasons, they were the only single-digit-win division leaders and would not have qualified for a wildcard spot. They only got in the postseason because of the crappy division
True, but see the above mention of a crappy division. In addition, those winning seasons were all 9-7, with no improvement in win record and a clear and steady decline in offensive production before DW4.
And if we are completely honest about it, those three seasons were mainly the result of RAC's defense more than anything else. Special teams are nothing special and O'Brien's offense is about as pedestrian as it gets.
Teams have turned it around in one year. Kubiak in Denver comes to mind as a recent example. First year with the Broncos and he wins a championship. They had to learn a different offensive and defensive systems, and that only took one offseason..
It is also shortchanging Watson's ability to learn a new system. Look at what he did this year with just one off-season in this system and not getting first team reps.
btw, I'm not saying that your points do not have merit, but rather there is a counter argument for the ones you presented.
I'd say this team still fighting and playing hard after losing so many starters is probably the biggest strength of O'Brien as a HC. He has not lost the lockerroom even with only four wins this season.
If he stays, I think he should devote himself full time to being a HC and delegate OC duties so he can look big picture at both team development and overall game management.
adama51
Walk-on
I want this to happen so bad
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
IF it is an independent offensive mind and not some yes man.
adama51
Walk-on
Oh. So I guess it's not gonna happen then. Good talk everyone
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
I'm not in disagreement with you about teams being able to turn it around in 1 year.
But if you're going to give Kubiak credit for "turning around" Denver in 1 year.......which just happens to be the year after they went to the AFC championship game..............& set all types of offensive records................& did it with one of the GOAT's, you can't turn around and discount Ob for actually turning this team around in 2014............... 1 year after they went 4-12.....with a journeyman qb. The 2 situations are apples and oranges really. But why so much impatience with Ob when it took his predecessor Kubiak 5 years to get us where Ob has already gotten us twice in 1 less year? I'll spot Kubiak 2 years due to the horrible talent that he inherited..........but it still shouldn't have taken 5 years to get us there; the talent wasn't that bad.
& it's no short change to Watson taking 1 year to learn a new system. If it took one of the GOAT's basically 1/2 a season to learn Kubiak's according to what you say above, then it's reasonable to assume it'll take a 2nd year guy at least 1 year to learn a new one
Special teams haven't been anything special here since terrance mathis....that's more on Smith than OB...I agree that he needs to focus more on the macro level as a HC, But i don't necessarily buy that him giving up his OC duties is going to help with that. The biggest thing i think that will is being able to fully trust Watson in crunch time......which comes with time & experience that he was developing with coaching him. You think Belichick, Peyton or any other HC with a stud under center worry about clock management in the last 2-3 minutes of games? Nope they've entrusted that to their guys under center. but that kind of rapport takes time and experience to develop.
Otherwise I agree with most of what you're saying here & i guess it all just comes down to perspective.
Texansballer74
The Marine
Here is our new HC or OC. Haha
Thorn
Dirty Old Man
LOL!
OB seemed to have excellent chemistry with Watson. New things were done, the offense opened up doing stuff I never EVER thought I'd see from OB. Watson left until next year and we're now back to the same ole crapolla, which should be expected from Savage and the rest of our so called QBs. If Watson can stay on his feet, which is a big question mark, our offense can score lots and lots of points. If we have a defense that actually works some of the time, we can win lots of games as long as Watson is healthy.
But even in fantasy land it doesn't take away my gut feeling that the Texans are not a well run organization.
Malloy
Hall of Fame
Although Whisenhunt is considered a good OC, I'm not sure he's been able to develop any young QBs. Most of his offensive success came with Phillip Rivers and Kurt Warner.
The Titans fired him because he couldn't recognize he had a bad OL and continued running slow developing plays that got his QBs hurt. With Whisenhunt's philosophy and a bad OL, Watson might need a wheelchair by game 2.
Being a QB guru doesn't equate to being an effective OC. Here's some reading material on him. BTW, I'm not opposed to him as much as I'm ignorant as to what system he would potentially run.
https://chicago.suntimes.com/sports/chicago-area-qb-guru-has-the-nfls-full-attention/
He has never been an OC that I can find. He specializes just on QBs from everything I've read on him (2 articles).
My biggest issue with replacing OB is who it will be? That's such a big gamble. RGIII was pretty dang talented. I bet he'd be a top 10 QB if Shanny hadn't ruined him.
edromeo
Rookie
I don't 'know' for the same reason that you can't 'know' that Ryan wasn't involved with the design of the O.
But, I've heard Ryan field questions about changes to the offense early in the season.
And, QB coaches are typically involved with every aspect of the QB position. QB coach is a very important position on any staff its a pipeline position to OC-HC and there have been some that have gone straight from QB coach to HC or been an OC for a mere season or 2 before becoming a HC.
There is a huge difference between an OC and a play caller. An OC is like a Chef he runs the kitchen the play caller chooses the menu for the day. Meaning Ryan would coordinate the offense. Practice schedules, building the game plan I can go into more detail later. But OC does a outside of calling the plays.
And continuity is important. Especially since it changes to the offense effect the most important player on the team. Running an offense isn't just about the talent.....look at the dip the Falcons and the Bengals production.
Last edited:
Seegara
Guitar Picker, Dog Lover, Woodworker
If I remember right, OB was trying to hold Watson down, but Watson continued to ad lib successfully until OB started to go along with him. That's hardly great playcalling by OB.
eriadoc
Texan-American
Great playcalling is, in part, adapting. So I give O'Brien credit for that. Of course, that begs the question why he's forced every other QB he's had to try and conform to his crappy playcalling, but hey, that's why we have a thread.
You give OB credit for Miller up the middle on about half of the plays and call that adapting and credit worthy? OB, minus DW4, is at his best when he's been forced to limit his "play book" due to having another QB who is inexperienced in his "system". With DW4, OB started mixing in a lot of college plays and relying on DW4's athleticism. Kind of a retro adaptation there.
eriadoc
Texan-American
Did I say that?
RGIII had 2 ACL surgeries.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
2009 ACL - surgery
2013 grade 1 LCL, not cleared to play, returned and ended up torn LCL & ACL - surgery described as "complete knee reconstruction."
He then suffered a high ankle tear and then concussion (not the 1st) to open the door for Cousins.