JohnsonFan
Rookie
atleast okoye looks good..
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Jacoby Jones is a WR/PR not a DE or a DT.
Patrick Willis is a LB not a DE or a DT.
Adam Carriker is a DT but he is the exception so far in preseason at DT and not the rule.
I see, so expectations are higher for all other positions (and other team's picks) than for our highly drafted dlinemen?? So now, all of a sudden, dline (only on our team) is the MOST difficult position in football to play?? I don't think so..... It appears that just because WE drafted them folks want to give them a free pass. Again, this is not beating up on MW and AO but, our FO for drafting them ahead of where they should have been.
i just wish mario played like a 1st pick
I understand what you are saying but you are barking up the wrong tree. I'm not sitting here yelling "bust." I'm trying to explain what you get when you take a guy #1 overall. 1) I'm not sure on the hustling. Do I think he is jaking it?I'm not going to say that but there were questions about his motor since NC St. So I'd like to see some full games in yr 2 and see what he has. 2) I never said anything about Babin or TJ. I think Babin has been horrible for what Charlie gave up but will be happy is he has a breakout year. I'm concerned TJ had to have a coach threaten to cut him to get him to turn it around. 3) My thread had nothing to do with VY or Reggie. You just have to realize that your assessment might make alot of sense for the 17th guy taken in the 1st round but when you take a guy #1 overall, you are expecting to see plays, not someone that can spend a career holding the line. The reasoning behind his pick was "we are getting torched in the secondary and having a guy who can pressure the QB can change that." Right now, we aren't getting close to that. So I'd like to see more. That isn't a sin.
... like I desperately wanted that girl in kindergarden to like me.
i just wish mario played like a 1st pick
Deacon Jones got the crap beat out of him the first three years befor he got up to speed. I don't think it will take our two that long. They're just too good of athletes. Just need a six pack of patience.
Not trying to defend Mario, but a player similar to his physical attributes, Julius Peppers (who I might add has been in the league a lot longer) put up Mario-type numbers last night.
http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter?season=2007&week=PRE2&game_id=29471
It was interesting to me to see one of the elite pass rushers in the league be a no-show. Though sadly for Mario, Peppers has shown what he can do in the regular season.
Maybe Mario is unmotivated in preseason, maybe he really is a bust, but I find it hard to label him a true bust until after year 3.
There are so many things ungood with this defense in 2007.
They are young.
They are questionably coached.
They are semi-patched worked together with maybe guys not playing in their best positions.
The veteran mentors are ND Kalu and Anthony Weaver and Jeff Zgonina.
Young guys, questionable coaching, no older dominate players as vets, and guys playing out of position = ew. (Hey, sounds like the 2002 offense).
Yeah, I'd like Mario to dominate like a first pick, but what I'd really like is to see something that makes me optimistic about the defense this year. The only thing you can really say right now is that this is only the second game of the preseason, and they are young and might have a bright future. (Maybe if they have a miserable enough time here, their bright future is with some other team).
There are so many things ungood with this defense in 2007.
They are young.
They are questionably coached.
They are semi-patched worked together with maybe guys not playing in their best positions.
The veteran mentors are ND Kalu and Anthony Weaver and Jeff Zgonina.
Young guys, questionable coaching, no older dominate players as vets, and guys playing out of position = ew. (Hey, sounds like the 2002 offense).
Yeah, I'd like Mario to dominate like a first pick, but what I'd really like is to see something that makes me optimistic about the defense this year. The only thing you can really say right now is that this is only the second game of the preseason, and they are young and might have a bright future. (Maybe if they have a miserable enough time here, their bright future is with some other team).
Mario did not do much today, but let's make sure we focus on him given that our team sucks more than ever in the last six years.
The cup is not half empty as pessimists say
As far as he's sees, nothing's left in the cup
A whole cup full of nothing for him to indulge
Waiting 3-4 years for D-Linemen to get good is ridiculous. One year, I can see it, but the position isn't hard enough to take 3-4 years to learn.
Also, most pass rushing types have quickness off the ball which is the one physical asset Mario does not have.
Simply Okoye needs a couple of years of weight training and general maturing of his body.
with Mario and Okoye you see two opposite sides of the why it may take longer than expected on a DLmen.
Williams was used to just dominating players because he was simply bigger, stronger, and more athletic. He really did not have polished techinque, well maybe even no real technique. He can't just do that as a pro and now he has to learn. Also, most pass rushing types have quickness off the ball which is the one physical asset Mario does not have. Honestly, I think in the 4-3 he should play the LE or SDE and his best position maybe 3-4 DE. I would listen to an argue that he maybe better in you let him bulk up and play DT. For his skills RDE or the pure pass rushing position maybe his worse.
Okoye has the quick first step and technique, but literally needs to get physically stronger. The Texans probably need to pair him with a bigger run stuffing type at some point. I think it would be a mistake to play Okoye more 35 maybe 40 plays a game. don't think his body is mature enough to stand-up to the pounding. Simply Okoye needs a couple of years of weight training and general maturing of his body.
In the meantime, what you want to see from these guys is not just gettiing manhandled and flashing the pure skills that they were drafted for.
I dunno how many times I've got to post this sheet...one more apperently. Up untill that wensday, the day befor the Reggie Bush house stroy broke...no one offered a trade. No one. Mario was the best d-lineman on the board. Period. They were not going to take Bush.They put a phone call into the guy two days befor the story broke. And when they came back his demands were so outragous...the house story made Bush untouchable. They were not going to take Vincent. All you gotta do is watch the guy work a quarter and any sane person can see the guy can not pass the ball. Couldn't do it in highschool. Couldn't do it in college. And won't ever do it. Damn sure didn't do it last night. Their only two choices of that draft was to get a move down deal or pick Mario Williams. That was it. All of the revesionist crap then about Mario, and now about Okoye ...is just that crap. They weren't going to take a WR. Or a Rb or a FS. They passed on FS four times last April. After the forth time, I got it .
Well the two guys the last time I checked weren't dead yet. Instant gratifacation is a fools dream. I'm sorry they've missed your comfort level on what a first rounder is supposed to be. But at least give them the season. I saw them both hustleing and giving their all today. Paper says we've got a good D-line coach. Just got to let it play out. I know one thing for a fact neither one of them is going anywhere for a few seasons. That's your starting two on the right side untill '10. Wanna jump up and down and stomp your feet and hold your breath for three years, be my guest. The Draft is not a science. It is an art. All I know for a fact is that Okoye has an elite first step and Mario is a 1%er. They may well bust out. But it won't be because they don't play RB or QB. They now have WR2 in the fold. Won't see him there untill '09. But after four seasons, they have him now. I'm just curious which WR in '06 and '07 you would of picked over Jones ? Deacon Jones got the crap beat out of him the first three years befor he got up to speed. I don't think it will take our two that long. They're just too good of athletes. Just need a six pack of patience.
How about that stop on 4th and 1?
I don't need to do that. I can look at the guy and tell he's not playing well.
Stop feeding me this non-sense about how he really is, but he just hasn't played a full game and he will miraculously start playing ball "when it really counts"...ball players play ball....
You're in denial. His play was borderline terrible.
Also, in Deacon Jones first year the Rams only had DE Lamar Lundy at that point. The next year they drafted DT Merlin Olsen and then in his third year the acquired DT Rosey Grier was acquired from the NY Giants to complete the original Fearsome Foursome. It should also be noted that although they rotated positions Jones normaly played LDE.
I dunno how many times I've got to post this sheet...one more apperently. Up untill that wensday, the day befor the Reggie Bush house stroy broke...no one offered a trade. No one. Mario was the best d-lineman on the board. Period. They were not going to take Bush.They put a phone call into the guy two days befor the story broke. And when they came back his demands were so outragous...the house story made Bush untouchable. They were not going to take Vincent. All you gotta do is watch the guy work a quarter and any sane person can see the guy can not pass the ball. Couldn't do it in highschool. Couldn't do it in college. And won't ever do it. Damn sure didn't do it last night. Their only two choices of that draft was to get a move down deal or pick Mario Williams. That was it. All of the revesionist crap then about Mario, and now about Okoye ...is just that crap. They weren't going to take a WR. Or a Rb or a FS. They passed on FS four times last April. After the forth time, I got it .
Well the two guys the last time I checked weren't dead yet. Instant gratifacation is a fools dream. I'm sorry they've missed your comfort level on what a first rounder is supposed to be. But at least give them the season. I saw them both hustleing and giving their all today. Paper says we've got a good D-line coach. Just got to let it play out. I know one thing for a fact neither one of them is going anywhere for a few seasons. That's your starting two on the right side untill '10. Wanna jump up and down and stomp your feet and hold your breath for three years, be my guest. The Draft is not a science. It is an art. All I know for a fact is that Okoye has an elite first step and Mario is a 1%er. They may well bust out. But it won't be because they don't play RB or QB. They now have WR2 in the fold. Won't see him there untill '09. But after four seasons, they have him now. I'm just curious which WR in '06 and '07 you would of picked over Jones ? Deacon Jones got the crap beat out of him the first three years befor he got up to speed. I don't think it will take our two that long. They're just too good of athletes. Just need a six pack of patience.
I can't believe I'm saying this but...
This is the most well reasoned and thoughtful post in this thread.
Sure would like to hear where you're going with that one.
After reading this thread, I'm going to go ahead and admit I'm probably being way too impatient. With the way that Babin is playing now, 3 years after being drafted, and the bust label that everyone put on him, it's probably a wise thing for me to wait a couple of years for Mario to develop the skills necessary to take it to the next level.
I guess that all the patience that I was preaching with Carr, and having nothing to show for it, is maybe translating to being impatient now.
He showed flashes last season with the bum foot, though. I don't know why I shouldn't expect to see a few flashes now.
hard to say, I keep trying to convince myself that the reason our D has been... less than exciting, is because it's pre-season and that we're keeping all the goodies in the box until the regular season starts. I'm not sure that is the case, but I hope it is
The fly in the Mario ointment is that a big part of his upside were the explosiveness and quickness measurables at the combine. I think the quick first step is more of a mental aspect Marion hasn't displayed. If that even makes sense.
I agree that Okoye will need time for his body to mature into that of a man, not just an exceptionally strong teenager.
Not trying to defend Mario, but a player similar to his physical attributes, Julius Peppers (who I might add has been in the league a lot longer) put up Mario-type numbers last night.
http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter?season=2007&week=PRE2&game_id=29471
It was interesting to me to see one of the elite pass rushers in the league be a no-show. Though sadly for Mario, Peppers has shown what he can do in the regular season.
Maybe Mario is unmotivated in preseason, maybe he really is a bust, but I find it hard to label him a true bust until after year 3.
Peppers did not play against the Eagles.
Re: Questionable defensive coaching
If you look at the backgrounds of the defensive coaching staff, it is not like we have the most dominant coaching staff in the league. It's been my belief that if we were to have an offensive minded head coach, I'd like to see a quality coach heading up the defense.
Richard Smith was not the Texans first choice. There is very little in his background that inspires confidence in his abilities.
The defensive line has its second set of coaches. The DC admits that they misused Mario on the line last year.
They said in the broadcast that the line gets to make its own line calls. But didn't discuss that any further. So basically a line composed of a 20 year old, a guy who came out as a true junior, someone that came of the practice squad last year, and an old guy get to figure out what they are going to do at the line.
Blind leading the blind? I'm not saying they are horrible, but I can't say I have a lot of confidence in the staff. I'd feel better about the development of our young players if there was a defensive staff with more of a track record running the show, developing and chosing players to fit their system, whatever the heck that is.
(The offensive side of the ball has its own inexperience, but at least Sherman has a lot of experience and the majority of the staff is on the same page with Kubiak from a philosophical standpoint. And though they weren't great in 2006, you could tell a coaching difference. The defense from a coaching perspective has shown me more bad than good, so that's where I'm coming from in saying that it is questionable).
Well, maybe I'm oversimplifying things, but I wanted to see the level of play of the defensive linemen without blitzes and stunts. Not happy with what I'm seeing.
Blitzes and stunts are meant to compliment the pass rush, not to make up for the lack of. Game film with a good offensive co-ordinator can sniff out the difference and take advantage of it.
you run stunts for the same reason you run counters and misdirection on offense. You have to mix it up and not become predictable....players are too good in this league to just do the same things over and over.You might be right about this but I'd always heard very different. I'd heard that teams that were without dominant D-linemen had to blitz or use stunts in order to disguise/hide those personnel weaknesses. I hear announcers and analysts say all the time that its considered a luxury to have a dominant pass rush from your front four and be able to drop seven back into coverage and feel good that the opposing QB won't "have all day" to throw.
I can't wait for the day that our D-line gives our defense that "luxury". But we obviously aren't there yet.
You make some excellent points about the defensive staff. I have to admit. I asked, " Richard Who?" when the coaching staff was put together last year. However, they are the coaching staff and we can only hope they know what they are doing.
Frank Bush...and we signed him this offseason. I think this may be Frank Bush's defense next season. I don't anticipate Smith being around next year.Richard Smith wasn't Kubiak's first choice. I forgot who it was, someone on a team out west, IIRC. Maybe TC remembers. But whoever it was, wasn't allowed to talk to us by his team.
Richard Smith wasn't Kubiak's first choice. I forgot who it was, someone on a team out west, IIRC. Maybe TC remembers. But whoever it was, wasn't allowed to talk to us by his team.
you run stunts for the same reason you run counters and misdirection on offense. You have to mix it up and not become predictable....players are too good in this league to just do the same things over and over.
to me it's not a matter of getting a sack...it's a matter of beating your man in some way on any given play. I haven't seen him win any individual battles....and he is supposed to be a "freak" that has elite speed and strength....I just don't see it when he plays.How many sacks do you guys think Mario left on the table? I plan on looking at the recording later, but I don't remember a ton of sack opportunities on Leinart.
to me it's not a matter of getting a sack...it's a matter of beating your man in some way on any given play. I haven't seen him win any individual battles....and he is supposed to be a "freak" that has elite speed and strength....I just don't see it when he plays.
No argument from me on that. It seems like some of us expect Mario, et. al. to just run over the opposing O-linemen. Like you said, the players are too good for that.
And I have to admit, I get tired of seeing Mario "boxing" with the tackles and not even making said tackle give ground. If the tackle engages Mario (or whoever) and gets him involved in a game of pattycake for 2-3 seconds, then the tackle has won that battle because the play has most likely moved past him.
I don't know if that is lack of effort as some have said or lack of understanding that he's wasting time by "boxing" - but it needs to be fixed.
I'm really surprised by some of the posts I'm seeing in this thread.
Mario negatives from people I wouldn't have expected it from. But as I have not seen him play in this preseason, I have to take their words, because they are people I trust.
However, I saw alot of the things that made Mario our #1 pick last season, and I find it hard to believe his effort has dropped so far.
I was not disappointed with Mario in the least bit all of last season, & I'm still optomistic, that he'll be one of the premier defensive players in the league for a long time to come.
My excuse for why we aren't seeing those numbers translate to the stat sheet??
As a whole, our defense is still pretty young. Our defensive line more so. Mario, Maddox, TJ, Amobi, Babin... our best defensive lineman, are all what 3 years or less in this league??
Had Mario gone to Tampa Bay with Simeon Rice, and Warren Sapp, we'd be crying that we didn't take him. Or if He went to play in Philadelphia, opposite Jevon Kearse, and swapping inside/outside duties with Darren Howard, we'd drool over a player that could do what Mario would do on that team.
OR if he played opposite Dwight Freeney, we wouldn't question Indy's dominance of the AFC South.
Our best defensive lineman is an undersized DE we've been trying to get to play LB for most of his professional career.
On this team, It's going to take a little time before Mario can dominate. That's just the way it is.