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What is Watson's value in a trade?

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
And Bill O’Brien is still the same guy he was as a rookie HC. But you’re not being over critical towards him, why?
I believe I have said he should have been fired.

How much more critical of him do you expect me to be?

I'm hoping both of them improve because they are going to most likely going to be here another 5 yrs.
 

Texansballer74

Hall of Fame
I believe I have said he should have been fired.

How much more critical of him do you expect me to be?

I'm hoping both of them improve because they are going to most likely going to be here another 5 yrs.
Exhibit the same energy you have towards Watson. Every time someone mentions Watson you go on this rant. Why aren’t you doing it whenever O’Briens name is mentioned.
 

amazing80

Fire Billy O
Good reply

TB missed Gromk last yr, that was the biggest reason for his drop off. WFV played in the playoffs and Stills isn't a bad WR.

I will give you Clark but if one below avg OT can bring a entire offense to below avg then there are other issues. BTW. The offense had to work around 2 below avg OTs 2 yrs ago and somehow managed to make the playoffs.

Yes, I would expect the players I drafted to be smart enough to learn the playback if I was BOB, mean it's a large part of their job and if they can't learn the playbook then it's time to move on.

If Coutee doesn't get more comfortable with the playbook/route running then I expect him to be cut in TC as an example.

I do lay the Lions share at DE4's feet because he's basically the same guy he was as a rookie
I'm going to start reporting your posts for incoherent babble. It's like a broken record with you. Blah blah blah, Watson sucks, blah blah, Watson is stupid, blah blah blah.
 

otisbean

Veteran
Contributor's Club
Good reply

TB missed Gromk last yr, that was the biggest reason for his drop off. WFV played in the playoffs and Stills isn't a bad WR.

I will give you Clark but if one below avg OT can bring a entire offense to below avg then there are other issues. BTW. The offense had to work around 2 below avg OTs 2 yrs ago and somehow managed to make the playoffs.

Yes, I would expect the players I drafted to be smart enough to learn the playback if I was BOB, mean it's a large part of their job and if they can't learn the playbook then it's time to move on.

If Coutee doesn't get more comfortable with the playbook/route running then I expect him to be cut in TC as an example.

I do lay the Lions share at DE4's feet because he's basically the same guy he was as a rookie
I agree TB did miss Gronk, BUT he was playing with new (Sanu) and young WRs seeing more playing time as the season progressed in Harry and Meyers. I think with their read based offense it slowed their learning curve a bit, and I think it has happened with us in the 2018 season and this past season. Stills is a nice number 3 WR but he’s still new to system.

You’re right WFV did play against KC but that was after missing 4-5 wks with a hammy, and if I remember correctly, he left the game with a groin strain.

I think our OL was more than just Clark. I think Fulton had a sub par year particularly in the run game. To be honest I would have said in both pass blocking and run blocking but Pff had him in the 70s for pass blocking so I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt there. He was run blocking was atrocious as he was constantly in the backfield on running plays. Given how much BOB wants to run the ball, having Fulton and Clark in the same side was bad, really bad.
If you’re off schedule as an offense constantly converting 3rd and long is tough for most QBs, unless you’re going against us.
I can’t argue with you that a coach should expect young guys to pick things up and it is indeed part of their job. However, let’s be honest, our offense is difficult to grasp. I don’t think younger players would have as tough a time picking up Kubes offense for instance. If you have an identity and you run similar plays from week to week it would obviously be easier to pick up the scheme. If you learn 200 formations in TC and you don’t run the same plays weeks to week it’s got to take more time to pick things up. Repetition is the mother of learning, how do you get that repetition when the game plan constantly changes. According to former players it takes 2-3 yrs to really get our system. I think it probably takes that long to get the requisite reps under your belt.
I get your frustration with the improvement of DW and that he hasn’t improved as much as we’d all like over the past 2 seasons, but what has really changed from 18 to 19?
Poor offensive line in 18, slightly less poor in 19 (the ol finished 27th in pass blocking- not a night and day difference)
WRs missing multiple games, happened in both seasons forcing newer less experienced guys to play heavy mins
Again DWs mediocre last month coincides with Clark playing heavy mins at RT and WFV missing games. He’s the second most seasoned WR we have in our system
Decent running game both seasons
Same play caller both years, and to my eye, with the exception of some added RPO elements I didn’t see much difference in our scheme
The schedule was tougher this year as opposed to 18
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
I agree TB did miss Gronk, BUT he was playing with new (Sanu) and young WRs seeing more playing time as the season progressed in Harry and Meyers. I think with their read based offense it slowed their learning curve a bit, and I think it has happened with us in the 2018 season and this past season. Stills is a nice number 3 WR but he’s still new to system.

You’re right WFV did play against KC but that was after missing 4-5 wks with a hammy, and if I remember correctly, he left the game with a groin strain.

I think our OL was more than just Clark. I think Fulton had a sub par year particularly in the run game. To be honest I would have said in both pass blocking and run blocking but Pff had him in the 70s for pass blocking so I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt there. He was run blocking was atrocious as he was constantly in the backfield on running plays. Given how much BOB wants to run the ball, having Fulton and Clark in the same side was bad, really bad.
If you’re off schedule as an offense constantly converting 3rd and long is tough for most QBs, unless you’re going against us.
I can’t argue with you that a coach should expect young guys to pick things up and it is indeed part of their job. However, let’s be honest, our offense is difficult to grasp. I don’t think younger players would have as tough a time picking up Kubes offense for instance. If you have an identity and you run similar plays from week to week it would obviously be easier to pick up the scheme. If you learn 200 formations in TC and you don’t run the same plays weeks to week it’s got to take more time to pick things up. Repetition is the mother of learning, how do you get that repetition when the game plan constantly changes. According to former players it takes 2-3 yrs to really get our system. I think it probably takes that long to get the requisite reps under your belt.
I get your frustration with the improvement of DW and that he hasn’t improved as much as we’d all like over the past 2 seasons, but what has really changed from 18 to 19?
Poor offensive line in 18, slightly less poor in 19 (the ol finished 27th in pass blocking- not a night and day difference)
WRs missing multiple games, happened in both seasons forcing newer less experienced guys to play heavy mins
Again DWs mediocre last month coincides with Clark playing heavy mins at RT and WFV missing games. He’s the second most seasoned WR we have in our system
Decent running game both seasons
Same play caller both years, and to my eye, with the exception of some added RPO elements I didn’t see much difference in our scheme
The schedule was tougher this year as opposed to 18
1. Stills is a low end field stretching WR 2 that's a really good WR2.
2. Clark/Fulton on the same side of the OL = Piss Poor
3. Agreed about Kubes offense vs BOB's offense, Maybe I just expect more out of NFL players in general when it comes to players knowing their playbook.
4. Nothing has changed
Clark/Fulton on the right side will make most OL look bad. BTW, DW4 didn't do these turds any favors.
5. Agreed
6. The Running up the middle was due to DW4 giving the ball instead of keeping the ball. But a lesser version of the RPO is what they ran last yr. Hopefully this changes and Kelly will make a difference next yr. DW4 = Full RPO or bust.
 

Texansballer74

Hall of Fame
To be fair there are lots of people perfectly happy to point out all of OB’s faults both the real and imagined ones. Hell we have entire threads about them.
You’re right about that. My thing is Coach is the main issue here. The mistakes he makes are continuous from year to year. He’s not able to maximize the talent he has. The offensive line has only improved marginally. So how do anyone expect any quarterback to improve in this very flawed system.
 
I'm going to start reporting your posts for incoherent babble. It's like a broken record with you. Blah blah blah, Watson sucks, blah blah, Watson is stupid, blah blah blah.
As compared to the many posts of how it’s all OBs fault? Hell some posts didn’t even make logical sense like the idea that OB was in charge of the very first draft after he was hired or that he has hand picked every player that has been on this team, except the good ones, since he got here.

I’ll admit Steel does beat his share of dead horses but let’s not pretend that this place hasn’t looked like a glue factory for the better part of 3 years now.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
As compared to the many posts of how it’s all OBs fault? Hell some posts didn’t even make logical sense like the idea that OB was in charge of the very first draft after he was hired or that he has hand picked every player that has been on this team, except the good ones, since he got here.

I’ll admit Steel does beat his share of dead horses but let’s not pretend that this place hasn’t looked like a glue factory for the better part of 3 years now.
Keeping the same narrative

When on the other side says why dont you beat up on BOB like you do DW4 after you've already beat the dead horse for BOB being fired after 51-7 is laughable.

Some posters just dont like me personally because of my thoughts on whether DW4 is as good (Franchise QB) as they think he is. BTW, 3 yrs and counting and very little progress. But hey if they need to change the offense because DW4 struggles in certain areas then I'm on board with changing the offense because DW4 isn't going anywhere. (Just like BOB) So hopefully Kelly simplifies the offense to fit what comes natural to DW4. If he gets hurt so be it.
 

Texansballer74

Hall of Fame
The progress falls on the darn coach in this situation. Injuries to key players stunted the freaking progress too. The youngster could’ve easily had 4000 yards again if he played the last game. He still threw for over 3800 yards 26 tds, with 12 interceptions. His QBR was higher than his second year. Rushed for 7 Touchdowns. And you’re trying to tell us he regressed. Man please!

Steel just stop it already with the Watson bashing.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
The progress falls on the darn coach in this situation. Injuries to key players stunted the freaking progress too. The youngster could’ve easily had 4000 yards again if he played the last game. He still threw for over 3800 yards 26 tds, with 12 interceptions. His QBR was higher than his second year. Rushed for 7 Touchdowns. And you’re trying to tell us he regressed. Man please!

Steel just stop it already with the Watson bashing.
When you say falls on his coach are you talking about

BOB?
Carl Smith?
Kelly?
DW4's personal QB coach?

Since you seem to be into numbers, 10 great/good games. 7 below avg/bad games.
 
The progress falls on the darn coach in this situation. Injuries to key players stunted the freaking progress too. The youngster could’ve easily had 4000 yards again if he played the last game. He still threw for over 3800 yards 26 tds, with 12 interceptions. His QBR was higher than his second year. Rushed for 7 Touchdowns. And you’re trying to tell us he regressed. Man please!

Steel just stop it already with the Watson bashing.
I wouldn’t say he has regressed and in fact he has improved in one key area and that’s in dealing with the blitz. Before the secret to shutting down Watson was blitz him all day because he would never see it coming and if you didn’t get the sack you were going to make him run for almost no yards and take a hit. Didn’t help that the line had more holes than Swiss cheese.

Now Watson is much better at seeing the blitz and even making teams pay for it. Blitzing him is a sure fire way to hVe him drop 30+ yards on you.

Where Watson has not improved is his accuracy. That is NOT on OB or at least if you are going to blame OB you have to first blame Dabo because these were the same issues he had in college. If anyone doesn’t believe me go read his combine report, the first and main weakness they list is accuracy particularly with the deep ball.

Difference is Dabo saw it and had a scheme that, while not dumber per say, had fewer options for the QB that the one OB runs. Watson is not dumb, in fact I would argue the opposite is the issue because he over thinks things trying to find that perfect solution and as a result doesn’t reach any solution. We see proof of this in how long he holds the ball, that’s not on OB because he’s not sitting there in Watson’s ear saying “throw it now”. Ultimately it’s on Watson to decide to get rid of it or tuck and run with it.

Watson is not a good QB for OB and OB is not a good OC for Watson, their styles and way of thinking are to different. That’s not to say one is right and the other wrong, and no OBs time here and number of QBs does not mean that, look at how long Reid went without success as a HC until he got his perfect QB.

Trouble the Texans have is Steel is right, neither OB nor Watson are going any where anytime soon so we are about to join the likes of Seattle, GB, Steelers and Saints after they all paid their QB. Good enough to be in the hunt but to much money in the QB position to build an all around team.
 

Texansballer74

Hall of Fame
When you say falls on his coach are you talking about

BOB?
Carl Smith?
Kelly?
DW4's personal QB coach?

Since you seem to be into numbers, 10 great/good games. 7 below avg/bad games.
You know who I’m talking about. Mainly Bill O’Brien and Delvin.

Again the entire team played below average to terrible. I really don’t understand why you won’t add those key components.
 

Texansballer74

Hall of Fame
Maverick you can’t be accurate when the offensive line continues to collapse on you brother. You can’t expect any quarterback to be accurate when your receivers are running the wrong routes quite frequently. Come on brother you have to factor in everything.
 

Earl34

Veteran
As compared to the many posts of how it’s all OBs fault? Hell some posts didn’t even make logical sense like the idea that OB was in charge of the very first draft after he was hired or that he has hand picked every player that has been on this team, except the good ones, since he got here.

I’ll admit Steel does beat his share of dead horses but let’s not pretend that this place hasn’t looked like a glue factory for the better part of 3 years now.
I give you credit for trying to be the voice of reason and balance some of the illogical posts in this forum, but I don’t recall posters claiming O”Brien was in charge of his first draft in the same repetitive manner.

At this point, based on the number of repetitive posts, I’m not even sure the beating of the dead horse is schtick, trolling, OCD or an illogical opinion.
 
I give you credit for trying to be the voice of reason and balance some of the illogical posts in this forum, but I don’t recall posters claiming O”Brien was in charge of his first draft in the same repetitive manner.

At this point, based on the number of repetitive posts, I’m not even sure the beating of the dead horse is schtick, trolling, OCD or an illogical opinion.
Go back and read Kdog’s posts.
 
Maverick you can’t be accurate when the offensive line continues to collapse on you brother. You can’t expect any quarterback to be accurate when your receivers are running the wrong routes quite frequently. Come on brother you have to factor in everything.
You're not wrong but his accuracy issues predate the Texans. Unless Clemson had a horrible Oline and WRs that ran the wrong routes as well? I don't know I rarely watch college so did Clemson have those issues?

Weaknesses
Frame is a little more slender than teams typically like. Accuracy runs hot and cold. Tends to over-stride on drive throws, causing release point to drop and balls to sail. Ball placement on crossing routes and slants needs to improve. Will leave throws behind intended targets. Deep-ball accuracy has been scatter-shot over his last two seasons at Clemson, with throws sailing well beyond his target. Design of offense limited his need to make full-field reads. Has to become adept at working through progressions and playing chess against safeties. Needs to let routes develop rather than rushing anticipatory throws. Too many interceptions due to lack of vision, placement or decision-making. Threw interception vs. Troy against bracketed coverage he didn't see. Baited into bad-decision interceptions twice by Florida State cornerbacks. Has issues improvising away from initial, pre-snap plan even when pathway to target becomes muddy. Shotgun quarterback who, like Jared Goff, could take time getting used to huddling, pace of play-calling and drop-backs from under center.


 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
Are you counting my posts where I provided a link, video or stats to refute your illogical assumptions?
Like Caseeio becoming GM?

Very logical since Belicheck has let 3 other guys walk for GM jobs.

To answer your question, no I don't count your posts. Heck, I can barely skim through your drivel, much less count your posts

From now on when you ask questions like this please refer to post 11,882 in the Texans Random Thought of the Day thread for my answer. CnD summed things up very well in that post.
 
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steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
You're not wrong but his accuracy issues predate the Texans. Unless Clemson had a horrible Oline and WRs that ran the wrong routes as well? I don't know I rarely watch college so did Clemson have those issues?

Weaknesses
Frame is a little more slender than teams typically like. Accuracy runs hot and cold. Tends to over-stride on drive throws, causing release point to drop and balls to sail. Ball placement on crossing routes and slants needs to improve. Will leave throws behind intended targets. Deep-ball accuracy has been scatter-shot over his last two seasons at Clemson, with throws sailing well beyond his target. Design of offense limited his need to make full-field reads. Has to become adept at working through progressions and playing chess against safeties. Needs to let routes develop rather than rushing anticipatory throws. Too many interceptions due to lack of vision, placement or decision-making. Threw interception vs. Troy against bracketed coverage he didn't see. Baited into bad-decision interceptions twice by Florida State cornerbacks. Has issues improvising away from initial, pre-snap plan even when pathway to target becomes muddy. Shotgun quarterback who, like Jared Goff, could take time getting used to huddling, pace of play-calling and drop-backs from under center.


And still hasn't improved on his weaknesses dating back from college to going into yr 4 in the NFL.

Yep, there's a guy you can win a championship with.

On the bright side, atleast DW4 brought the Slime bros to Houston.
 

badboy

Hall of Fame
This thread has become another As the World Turns that mom used to watch and I guess is still on today. Not look for a week and then come back same old crap. Why do I ever look here? Oh yeah it was a thread I started to determine Watson' worth not on and on about how he is great or lousy or anything about Bill OBrien. Aren't there enough threads to take your arguments to?
 

Texansballer74

Hall of Fame
The beauty of a social media sports forum. Did you really expect it to stay the course? Especially after witnessing every thread being derailed. I mean your question was answered many moons ago.
 

badboy

Hall of Fame
The beauty of a social media sports forum. Did you really expect it to stay the course? Especially after witnessing every thread being derailed. I mean your question was answered many moons ago.
Do I expect us to not hammer and beat a dead horse, yeah I do. If my question answered let thread die. There are several other threads to regurgitate. I don't accept well "everyone one (threads) does it." Mom didn't buy that when I was 5.
 

Texansballer74

Hall of Fame
Do I expect us to not hammer and beat a dead horse, yeah I do. If my question answered let thread die. There are several other threads to regurgitate. I don't accept well "everyone one (threads) does it." Mom didn't buy that when I was 5.
Man stop being sensitive dude. I’m just saying that’s the way all these forums do.

Mods can easily lock it up if that’s what you want.
 

Texansballer74

Hall of Fame
So rather than keep repeating same stuff in more than one thread ad nauseam, it is me being sensitive? "That's just the way it is.."

That's the most popular topic . It happens in every sports forum. Go to a Rockets forum and you will witness the same exact thing.
 

badboy

Hall of Fame
Houston Texans quarterback Deshaun Watson still has a ways to go if he is to be a complete QB in the NFL.
So says Hall of Fame quarterback and NFL Network analyst Kurt Warner, who joined Radio.com’s “Baldy’s Breakdowns” with Brian Baldinger and Jason Myrtetus.
Myrtetus asked who were some young quarterbacks that could make the jump in 2020 into the NFL’s upper echelon, such as the Arizona Cardinals’ Kyler Murray and the Baltimore Ravens’ Lamar Jackson.
“I think we’ve got some good, young, playmaking quarterbacks in guys that you mentioned,” Warner said. “And there’s a bunch of them out there. The question to me is who can develop and grow their game to the point where they’re not just a playmaking quarterback, but they’re a complete quarterback.”
Warner talked about how Murray had a statistically good year with the 5-10-1 Cardinals, throwing for 3,722 yards, 20 touchdowns, and 12 interceptions. However, the 2019 first-round pick from Oklahoma, “didn’t even know what he was doing half the time,” according to Warner.
The former Super Bowl XXXIV MVP then segued into talking about Watson, a two-time Pro Bowler.
“Deshaun Watson’s another guy that, impressive, he’s a leader,” said Warner. “He’s a playmaker, but hasn’t really learned how to play the game yet.”
Watson collected 3,852 yards, 26 touchdowns, and 12 interceptions in 2019. The former 2017 first-round pick from Clemson also rushed for seven touchdowns and even caught a 6-yard touchdown pass from receiver DeAndre Hopkins in Week 13 versus the New England Patriots.
However, Warner still sees Watson in the same stratosphere as the Philadelphia Eagles’ Carson Wentz and the Dallas Cowboys’ Dak Prescott.
Said Warner: “They’ve shown glimpses and times where they’ve been really good and they have shown they can win at this level, but just winning is different than being a championship quarterback.
“Being a championship quarterback is the ability to be able to win in different ways, and specifically to me being able to win inside the pocket when a team forces you to win inside the pocket; to make decisions, to make reads, to make layups that you’re supposed to make.”
Interestingly, Watson had the highest Pro Football Focus grade on passes 20-plus yards downfield when he had a clean pocket.
 

KoolAid Sipper

Waterboy
IMO this is accurate at this point in his career. I think this is what TK was alluding to when he mentioned its time for DW to own the offense. Barring injury, this year should be his best yet. I also hope that he and his receiving core put in a lot of work together outside of the mandatory times since this offense is predicated on the QB and his receivers reading and reacting to the same reads.
 

OptimisticTexan

6 Years- 1 Game and Counting!!!!
IMO this is accurate at this point in his career. I think this is what TK was alluding to when he mentioned its time for DW to own the offense. Barring injury, this year should be his best yet. I also hope that he and his receiving core put in a lot of work together outside of the mandatory times since this offense is predicated on the QB and his receivers reading and reacting to the same reads.
Many folks have mentioned that using Watson's first 6 games is baseless b/c defenses figured him out the following year......go back and look at the film and I'd like to hear anyone say that the offense Watson was running and OB was calling resembled in any way what the Texans were doing in those first 6 games. OB personally knocked the wheels off that cart all by himself.

Like I mentioned, you want to know what Watson's trade value is.....just dangle his arse out there and let teams know they're taking offers. Anyone think Kurt Warner would get behind OB for moving Watson?
 

OptimisticTexan

6 Years- 1 Game and Counting!!!!
The free agent QBs are starting to get locked in. a couple more and then if Burrows and Tua tag go 1 and 2 and Chargers trade up to three or four and get Herbert then Miami could really be interested in our number four
If OB decided to send Watson to Miami for the #4 pick, that means he could essentially be trading Watson for QB, Justin Herbert of Oregon. OB would never make that move unless he thinks Big Ben 2.0 is there for the taking, which would only happen with Miami on the clock.

If OB decided to roll with McCarron as QB1 for 2020, then his focus could shift to DT, Derrick Brown of Auburn. Many consider Brown the most freakishly talented DT to come along in a long time. This decision could give OB the luxury of negotiating -now- for Miami's #4 pick and.....good lord, I can't believe I'm about to type this out......be a better position to receive a healthy return for Watson's services.

Herbert or Brown at #4 would be a solid return depending on the additional picks to go along with the move.
 
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Decim8

Noob
If OB decided to send Watson to Miami for the #4 pick, that means he's trading Watson for QB, Justin Herbert of Oregon. OB would never make that move unless he thinks Big Ben 2.0 is there for the taking, which would only happen with Miami on the clock.
With OB's awesome negotiation skills with trades, it wouldn't suprised me if he barely even got a 2nd round for Watson and that's only after we send a 4th :dontknowa
 

theCATALYST

"Fake" Fan
May as well trade Watson and anyone else worth a damn too …. Stockpile picks for the year after OB is fired.

This franchise is the laughing stock of the league.
There is no time like the present.
Watson to Miami, lets gets our #1's back.
Watt to highest bidder.
Tunsil to highest bidder.
Clean office from top to bottom.
Hire General Manager.
Allow General Manager to build a new office.
 


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