Death to Google Ads! Texans Talk Tip Jar! 🍺😎👍
Thanks for your support!
What is Watson's value in a trade?
- Thread starter badboy
- Start date
FuzzyLogic
Mathematically Possible
In some ways - yes I think he was better than his rookie year - part of that rookie year was just him slinging it around and running the D4W highlight offense.
The other way to look at your statement is the longer he is coached by BoB and the more BoB tries to implement his offense the worse DW4 looks? So maybe as many are saying, before giving up on DW4 he should be given a shot with someone who has proven they can field a decent NFL quality offense which BoB never has?\
I like BoB the HC - I think he has proven he can lead a team and they will follow him, be loyal to him etc. - he has an ugly offense and should find an OC that he trusts and get out of his way.
badboy
Hall of Fame
Watson had a Pro Bowl LT that allowed a pressure only once every 28 snaps; a top two NFL WR; who had to change his usual routine to bail out #4 almost every play; a thousand yard running back; a TE avg 10 yards per catch who had 7 TDs! RT Howard had only two sacks allowed in almost 500 snaps. The overall Oline improved from 31 to 20. Yeah we need to add some but your diamond in the rough needs to shake off some of the "rough" and be more of a diamond. Most QBs would love to have the assets I mentioned.
badboy
Hall of Fame
Your post has nothing to do with what Steel posted. Yes we again made playoffs and some QBs would have loved to have the record but Watson did regress in some areas. Saying that does not attack everything about #4 but just certain areas that I believe Watson should not have regressed in.
Saying DW4 regressed is going to lead to posts like.
1. It's all BOB's fault
2. Excuses (Th OL is bad/Long developing routes etc...)
3. DW4's getting better (You just dont know what you're looking at.)
4. You're stupid
5. Etc....
Followed by these type posts
1. He's a top 5 QB
2. He's as good as Mahomes
3. More excuses
4. Etc...
And round and round we go.
Watson had a Pro Bowl LT that allowed a pressure only once every 28 snaps
Tunsil also led the league in penalties
a top two NFL WR; who had to change his usual routine to bail out #4 almost every play;
Are you saying you know the plays being called during the game and you know Hopkins is changing his route to “bail” out Watson? I highly doubt that
a thousand yard running back
So? 1070 yds equals 67 yds a game. Hyde had a nice season but there’s a reason he’s on his 5th team since being drafted in 2014
a TE avg 10 yards per catch who had 7 TDs!
Fells had a nice season and is productive in the red zone, but like Hyde he’s JAG. He also had some key drops as the season progressed
RT Howard had only two sacks allowed in almost 500 snaps.
Howard was terrific when he played, he missed about half the year. His replacement is one of the worst OTs in FB
The overall Oline improved from 31 to 20.
They ranked 27th in pass protection though, which still puts them in the bottom 25% of the league
Yeah we need to add some but your diamond in the rough needs to shake off some of the "rough" and be more of a diamond. Most QBs would love to have the assets I mentioned.
Watson has areas where he needs to improve - no doubt. We have talent, but that talent wasn’t on the field the for 16 games and it seems like you’re cherry picking the good and ignoring some of the not so good. You’re also pumping some guys up to a level above their actual play (Hyde and Fells in particular)
OptimisticTexan
2024 / Rebuilding Block 4 After Playoffs / Texans
Center Martin and RG Fulton.....please stand-up and take a bow. Both of these guys have hit their peak and will not be getting any better. This is the reality of the Texans OL situation.
With the defensive players blowing away the 40 times at the Combine....Texans can and should get their answers at both positions on the OL in this draft.
badboy
Hall of Fame
to be fair, Martin did get better last season so we would be incorrect to say he has reached his peak. We just do not know. Fulton definitely went backwards but how much of that was due to the turf toe he had all season? He also had back injury late Sept and was replaced by Manz and also in mid November left game due to shoulder injury. The shuffle at RT after Howard was hurt didn't help. In my off season plan I trade/cut Fulton for $7 m cap savings. Martin goes the following off season when his dead $ is 2.5 m and savings is $6.25 m
OptimisticTexan
2024 / Rebuilding Block 4 After Playoffs / Texans
I want to move on from Fulton. As for Martin, I could live with him for another season provided he doesn't spend so much time in the backfield with Watson, Hyde and Johnson. One really good push by a DT and the Texans could have Martin getting credit for sacks on Watson. I'm really hoping he improves and gains some strength this year. Seriously, he's been a big disappointment for a RD2 pick, not to mention the fact that he comes from the same gene pool as one of the best RG's in the NFL.
banned1976
sleeper mode
Those are some of the outliers. You’re on the opposite end of the graph. They only post the positive things Watson does, you and a few others only write about the negative things in Watson’s game. The majority of us can praise his ability to escape and deliver a nice pass while still being frustrated he holds the ball too long.
My bottom line is, I still like Watson but he’s not making the improvement in certain areas that I feel will elevate the offense. I think he can improve and hopeful he will. I’m willing to discuss Watson’s game rationally. Most of us are. But the outliers on this board seem hellbent on turning every conversation about Watson into a mudslinging event. That behavior is distracting and it discourages others that may have some interesting insight about the team from commenting. By writing “if I say Watson has regressed that will lead to Watson supporters writing XYZ” you’re really writing “I don’t want to hear from anyone that has an opinion other than mine”. And that’s just an example, I know it comes from the opposite end of the spectrum.
I appreciate DW4's ability to escape the rush, his ability to throw on the run and his leadership qualities. However if he doesn't improve in the areas I've listed many times before there will be no championships.
It certainly wasn't my intention to run people off giving my thoughts. I'm open to talking with almost anybody on this subject. (Except people like UR who aren't Texans fans but are WOF's)
Like I've said before, I hope Kelly can help DW4 with a better gameplan and Yates can help DW4 improve his areas of weaknesses. But I think after 3 yrs that the jury is still out and I dont really expect much improvement at this stage of his career. I hope I'm wrong on this but I just dont see it happening.
BTW, The post you quoted was spot on and I'm more than willing to discuss this subject in a rational way and the final part of your post is way off base. It's a pleasure to discuss DW4 with rational posters like Corrosion who bring out both DW4's strengths/weaknesses and what BOB can do with his playcalling to try to work around DW4's weaknesses. (Something BOB didn't truly do and something hopefully Kelly can do.) You cant have these discussions with the UR's of the world because they worship at the DW4 shrine.
Last edited:
banned1976
sleeper mode
I'm glad you have found someone to play with.
OptimisticTexan
2024 / Rebuilding Block 4 After Playoffs / Texans
Watson has plenty enough game to win big and the biggest game. Is it open to discuss what Watson has had surrounding him since he arrived?
1. OB hasn't been the game planner or QB whisperer we expected hm to become after 6 seasons.
2. OB has done little to nothing in modifying his offense to take advantage Watson's skill set.
3. Watson has had little to nothing in regards to a functional OL since his arrival.
4. Watson has never had a threatening running game to help fade the heat from defenses.
5. Watson has had little to no plays that seem to incorporate the TE's or SWR as the primary target.
6. Hopkins has had to remain the primary target for Watson, even under constant duress from double and sometimes triple coverage, since the other receivers can't seem to stay healthy.
7. When Hopkins and Fuller are healthy.....they look like a different offense.
I think the Texans have asked a lot of Watson and for the most part, he's delivered in a pretty ugly situation. The defense has been skittish for more than a few years. They certainly don't promote confidence when handed a lead to protect.
With Kelly hopefully getting 100% control of the Texans offense for 2020.....then I feel this is the season to insert some final pieces via the draft and maybe the group could have an impact in 2020.
On a side note......I wouldn't be heart broken if OB and Watson decided to part ways before the draft. If the Texans really wanted to market Watson....then I would target either the Redskins (RD1-02) or the Dolphins (RD1-05) as a trade partner since both are looking hard for an answer at QB. I'd probably lean to Miami since they have the draft capital to bargain with. I'd expect to get from the Dolphins....2020 RD1-05 and RD2-05 and their 2021 RD1 and RD2. I'd expect an additional pick if I could get the Dolphins to agree to take Coutee as part of the package.
1. True
2. Not true, there was alot of RPO they used last yr.
3. The OL was good last yr, DW4 made them look worse than they are by holding onto the ball too long.
4. Hyde rushed for over 1,000 yds and had a good season.
5. True, although Fells caught 7 TD's, there's not a decent slot WR on the current roster.
6. That's DW4 forcing the ball to Hopkins. Which makes sense because he trusts Hopkins more since they've been playing together for yrs.
7. True, WFV is a differencemaker.
I would be very happy if they parted ways since I dont think DW4 can win a championship. Especially if they're going to have to pay this inconsistent QB 35 mil per yr.
Seegara
Guitar Picker, Dog Lover, Woodworker
Man. I wouldn't pay anybody $35 mil/year.
Maybe Brady/Mahomes/Rodgers
OptimisticTexan
2024 / Rebuilding Block 4 After Playoffs / Texans
Even if OB and Watson parted ways.....OB isn't mentally or talented enough to lead the Texans past the first round of the playoffs.
Don Capers, Gary Kubiak, Wade Phillips, and O'Brien were all pisspoor choices that were not flexible enough to win anything outside a Division title in a poor Divisional season. They all sucked and the Texans sucked right along with them.
Casserly and Smith were pisspoor GM's who squandered essentially everything they were given. These two sucked and the Texans sucked right along with them. Gaines probably had the finest draft of any Texans GM when he did some great work in handcuffed draft. Sure he didn't pan out in the long run but we don't know the story behind the scenes. O'Brien is now in the hot seat of judgement and I just don't get the warm and fuzzies in regards to how he will handle his first NFL Draft while in control. If he shites the bed and there's no accountability......then there's going to be an exodus of talent who will refuse to hang around and play in the shite show better known as the Titanic failure.
So, before I kicked Watson to the curb in a trade.....I'd assess the entire situation. OB has been here 6 seasons and has yet to find any QB who could operate his supposedly game changing offense. If I were a guessing man......my bet is that less than 50% of scripted pass plays have been successful from beginning to end during his tenure. The successes that OB has enjoyed with his passing game over the past 3 seasons have mostly come from Watson improvising away from the play. This guess could be a primary reason in my estimate why he's always looking for Hopkins. I'm sure Hopkins has reassured Watson since his arrival.....if you're in duress, just get it my vicinity and I'll get the ball. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.
If we were to run a poll amoung our TT members, that asked a simple question:
Who would be the best chance to lead and/or get the Texans to the Super Bowl?
1. O'Brien
2. Watson
Anyone want to take a stab at guessing the results?
Last edited:
Because there will finally be somebody that will be held accountable and if BOB fails then there will be a long overdue house cleaning. He's been here 6yrs, but he wasn't in charge of persoñnel so he wasn't in charge of finding a QB for the 1st 4 yrs. Kinda like when Kubiak didn't want to sign Schaub to an extension and had Manning in the building and wanting to sign with the Texans.
The drawn up pass plays thing is incorrect, what were Fitz/House/Is completion percentages? The reason the offense appears the way it does now is because that's DW4'S style of play. He doesn't process fast enough or throw with accuracy/ anticipation enough to be successful in BOB's offense. This is why I hope Kelly can call plays that are able to work around DW4'S weaknesses.
I've already given my thoughts on DW4/Hopkins and to be fair all QBs have a guy they look to when they get in trouble.
To answer your question, neither and I'm glad the Texans org isn't run by TT poll
badboy
Hall of Fame
But this is the point behind my Trade of our two most valuable assets. O'Brien is not going to leave. Another year before Cal focuses on Obrien. If OB isn't changing, How can you expect Watson to get much better? this offseason could be the perfect storm where we can get several starters going forward plus a Franchise type QB without giving up a draft pick in Haskins. Even if a change made after 2020 we have even less draft capital in 2021 Plus this draft of 2020 is extremely deep. What 1st round quarterback with an extremely effective last year in college and only one season in NFL Will be made available for a relatively cheap cost? Will 2021 possibly have the top three quarterbacks taken in the first three picks leaving a team with 3 first-round picks and desperately needing a quarterback like Watson? Even if Cal decides to trade Watson 2021 rather than now, will a "generational" player like Chase Young be within our range? If I can get QB Haskins, Young, a corner like Henderson and a Watson type mauling disruptor in Epenesa by trading Watson it is a done deal. 4 starters at priority positions including QB for a top 5 -8 QB? I can see 50-50 if no QB like Haskins but with him, yeah baby. Some posters keep harping on O'Brien being the problem and he could be but again he is not leaving no matter how much we complain.
badboy
Hall of Fame
Well if Watson is only top 10 and I think he's higher, Miami wouldn't give 3 round ones anyway. So stuck in same ol' same ol' another year and that's if Dashaun doesn't get killderated running around like a quail chased by a fox.
Like for using the quail/fox analogy.
#2 - they were ranked 27th in pass blocking last season, some of that is on Watson but the pass blocking in general (including scheme) has to improve. You like to harp on Watson’s last month of the season being poor, and that coincides with Clark being inserted at RT after Howard went out. Clark was/is putrid at pass blocking. Go back and re watch and focus on Clark. If you don’t throw up in your mouth watching him I’ll buy you a beer. Fulton was bas as well
#3 Hyde had a solid season but honestly a 1000 yds in a 16 game season isn’t a big deal. One of the negatives with Hyde is his lack of ability in the passing game. When Hyde’s in the game you know there’s a 90% chance it’s a run play. I do like Hyde’s toughness though. I’d like us to take a run at Kenyon Drake if he hits FA. He’s a more dynamic player that can help in both the run and passing game. Drake, Johnson and a young RB would be nice
RGV82
Random guy
Having a top 10 QB with BOB running the show means nothing.
Agreed
Clark has been terrible for yrs. I'm hoping they draft a RG that's capable of playing RT. Hyde did have a solid yr, but what you're saying is true and the reason why they've talked to almost 10 RBS at the Combine.
RGV82
Random guy
Kenyan Drake and Duke Johnson would be a mess. Duke compliments a player like Hyde, who has no role in the passing game. Kenyan Drake can play on all 3 downs, and commands receptions. Trying to fit Duke and Drake’s roles into our offense would be difficult.
You do Duke a disservice imo
Not really, they could use Duke to spell Drake every 3rd or 4th series and use Duke as a slot WR. (They certainly could use an upgrade at slot WR.
This way Duke could get 10-15 touches per game. It's also why they're looking at all types of RB's in the draft.
RGV82
Random guy
Duke would be irrelevant on 3rd downs paired with a receiving RB like Drake, rendering him virtually useless. Hyde and Drake are light years apart in terms of comparability. Duke’s role would be wayyyyy different and not nearly as significant.
I think a Drake is a solid runner that’s also a good receiver. While I liked Hyde as a runner, his presence in the backfield gives the defense clues as to what’s coming, run or play action. Hyde provides no threat as a receiver. I think when you have guys that are clearly lacking in certain areas you’re giving the defense clues and I’d like us to keep opposing defenses off balance
One of the things that made Foster so good is he was awesome as a runner and receiver. You had to account for him in all situations. Drake is obviously not at Fosters level but he’s a good player that can help our offense. I could see a situation where Drake got 60% of the snaps with Duke getting 40%. I thought Duke did a terrific job for us last year and would like to see him get more touches. He was under utilized IMO.
RGV82
Random guy
I think you’re missing my point. I agree with your points, which I’ve advocated for a long time, all I’m saying is I don’t think we need a Drake and Duke. It’d be redundant to one of them IMO. If we pursued Drake, Duke could be useful but his role would significantly change. His career has been built around being a 3rd down receiving back, now you’re suggesting that he becomes a platoon RB who alternates series with Drake.
Speedy
Former Yeller Dweller
FIFY
austins23
Hall of Fame
Wasn't very significant this year with ol OB running the show.
Wayyyyy under utilized
and to think it cost a 3rd round pick t get him, and then OB can't figure out how to get him significant touches consistently.
RGV82
Random guy
Everything you say is true, but does not change the fact that his role would be even less valuable if we signed Kenyan Drake. We get the most out of Duke with a guy like Hyde who is one dimensional.
austins23
Hall of Fame
I agree with your post.
Just for shits and giggles though. It would be neat to see how many times Hyde and Johnson were on the field together during the season and how many times Johnson was targeted during those personnel groupings. Or what kind of play was called.
RGV82
Random guy
That is actually an interesting thought. I would like to even take it one step further, and see the facts and figures broken down on 1st, 2nd and 3rd downs.
austins23
Hall of Fame
Don't recall many, if any 21 personnel groupings.
RGV82
Random guy
No doubt. If we ever did bring in a guy like Drake, I’d love to see how that would change.
OptimisticTexan
2024 / Rebuilding Block 4 After Playoffs / Texans
If Drake is the guy or my guy Zach Moss.....then that should make Duke Johnson far more effective when he is called upon since he Drake or Moss would be similar in style and give up nothing to defenses in the way of what play could be coming based on the substitution. As for a change of pace back, I think Higdon might be a nice 3rd down back who also has the ability to catch the ball out of the backfield.
Duke would still get 10-15 touches per game.
Are you saying getting a 3 down RB is a bad thing and shouldn't be a point of emphasis? If so apparently BOB disagrees with you and rightly so.
RGV82
Random guy
What I am saying is, if we do get a 3 down RB (which I would be in favor of), I would not put any priority on keeping Duke Johnson. I can not imagine Duke Johnson would be happy staying here playing behind a full time workhorse RB.
Who cares if Duke is happy.
I'm pretty sure Duke would be happy getting 10-15 touches per game. It would prolong his career.
RGV82
Random guy
Theorize it however you wish. When Kenyan Drake was thriving with Arizona last year, David Johnson was seeing like 3-5 touches per game. I find it hard to believe we could have a guy like Kenyan Drake reach his full potential here, while still giving Duke Johnson 10-15 touches per game. It would be a waste to sign Drake and limit his touches that much.
Agreed it would be a waste of cap space that needs to be used on the defense.
Would you be against drafting a 3 down RB like Akers in the 3rd/4th Rd. Duke being on the roster wouldn't stop me from drafting a stud like Akers.