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Welcome to Houston J Metchie III

Rumps02

Practice Squad
They say that he should be able to return by June.............6 months post repair. I'd say that would be pushing things too fast...........that's when bad things happen.

Again, a WR post ACL where studies show an expected drop in performance and longevity.

I will post a scarier statistic about players and ACLs in the Injury Thread shortly.
Can you drop a link to back this up please?


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Rumps02

Practice Squad
I may have missed it but what was the average age of those receivers? This is somewhat incomplete data if we’re comparing 27 year olds to 21 year olds for average age. I’m not saying the data is wrong but I imagine ACL tears are more impactful on an older player with more miles on their body versus someone out of college. I’d rather see a study for players who tore their ACL in college and what their success rate and longevity were in the NFL.


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Rumps02

Practice Squad
CBS’ grade is the one that has me scratching my head the most because there is no basis for it. A specialist isn’t considered a low round 1 prospect. The only time we see WRs sneak up in the 1st round is speed. See Teddy Gunn Jr and Darius Heyward-Bey. Guys like Metchie are only considered round 1 guys if they possess talent in route running abilities and incredible hands.


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badboy

Hall of Fame
Metchie was a low 1 grade before his injury on most draft boards.



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Personally I would not depend on a talking head from the same school that the player came from. I clicked on just one of those links and it had nothing to do with him being ranked in round 1. In the last two weeks of the draft of the many sources that I review, I did not find one of them that had him in the top 40 players. As with our other injured draft picks if healthy we should get some production from Metchie.
 

Rumps02

Practice Squad
Personally I would not depend on a talking head from the same school that the player came from. I clicked on just one of those links and it had nothing to do with him being ranked in round 1. In the last two weeks of the draft of the many sources that I review, I did not find one of them that had him in the top 40 players. As with our other injured draft picks if healthy we should get some production from Metchie.
This was a blog post from November and the author literally dropped several links from reputable draft boards slotting Metchie between 19-30 on prospect rankings. This wasn’t a homerism/rose colored glasses viewpoint. It was just facts.


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badboy

Hall of Fame
CBS’ grade is the one that has me scratching my head the most because there is no basis for it. A specialist isn’t considered a low round 1 prospect. The only time we see WRs sneak up in the 1st round is speed. See Teddy Gunn Jr and Darius Heyward-Bey. Guys like Metchie are only considered round 1 guys if they possess talent in route running abilities and incredible hands.


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I read CBS article as Metchies skillset is to go straight and go deep rather than hooks to the boundary line or over the middle of field. If you watched him he was very good at that at Bama but he had other wide receivers on the field with him that helped his cause. Hopefully Brandin Cooks will provide that for him in the Houston Dome.
 

badboy

Hall of Fame
This was a blog post from November and the author literally dropped several links from reputable draft boards slotting Metchie between 19-30 on prospect rankings. This wasn’t a homerism/rose colored glasses viewpoint. It was just facts.


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That's exactly my point as in November the season wasn't even over. On the third day of the draft we should be talking about rankings within the last 30 days before this draft. Not 5 months ago.
 

Rumps02

Practice Squad
I read CBS article as Metchies skillset is to go straight and go deep rather than hooks to the boundary line or over the middle of field. If you watched him he was very good at that at Bama but he had other wide receivers on the field with him that helped his cause. Hopefully Brandin Cooks will provide that for him in the Houston Dome.
So the evaluations in November that had him slated as a late 1 missed out on the “aided by surrounding talent” angle? Help me understand that.


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Rumps02

Practice Squad
That's exactly my point as in November the season wasn't even over. On the third day of the draft we should be talking about rankings within the last 30 days before this draft. Not 5 months ago.
Yeah, well people are only looking at value post ACL versus his value pre-ACL. Jameson Williams was arguably a top 3 pick before his injury and he went 12. Most people think that is a potential steal for the Lions, but a lot of people and pundits aren’t using the same logic for the Metchie pick. It makes zero sense.


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badboy

Hall of Fame
So the evaluations in November that had him slated as a late 1 missed out on the “aided by surrounding talent” angle? Help me understand that.


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I may not be able to. An example will be when you have an Andre Johnson as your number one wide receiver then your number two wide receiver DeAndre Hopkins will have advantages he may not have as the number one as will be covered by best DB.. Hopefully Metchie develops while we have Cooks and will have a similar career as Hopkins. I am not against the guy but would not depend on an evaluation that is 5 months old.
 
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badboy

Hall of Fame
Yeah, well people are only looking at value post ACL versus his value pre-ACL. Jameson Williams was arguably a top 3 pick before his injury and he went 12. Most people think that is a potential steal for the Lions, but a lot of people and pundits aren’t using the same logic for the Metchie pick. It makes zero sense.


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First of all mechie is nowhere in the same Stratosphere as Jameson Williams pre-injury. I did not save the link but I have seen at least one review that the Texans got a steal with Metchie.
 

Rumps02

Practice Squad
I may not be able
I may not be able to. An example will be when you have an Andre Johnson as your number one wide receiver then your number two wide receiver DeAndre Hopkins will have advantages he may not have as the number one as will be covered by best DB.. Hopefully Metchie develops while we have Cooks and will have a similar career as Hopkins. I am not against the guy but would not depend on an evaluation that is 5 months old.
How are you going to evaluate a guy while he’s recovering from an ACL and can’t participate in pro days or combine?

And you bring up a great example of the “aided by surrounding talent” angle with Hopkins…except it was in college. He was lined up opposite Sammy Watkins and slipped to the 27th pick. I think everyone can argue he was undervalued and should have been a top 10 pick in 2013.


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Rumps02

Practice Squad
First of all mechie is nowhere in the same Stratosphere as Jameson Williams pre-injury. I did not save the link but I have seen at least one review that the Texans got a steal with Metchie.
I didn’t say All, but the narrative for the Metchie pick is considered a reach more than a steal. It’s not the case for Williams.

And I’m not comparing the two receivers directly as far as talent. I’m comparing the narrative being spun on one versus the other.

Metchie being graded as a low 1 pick and picked up mid 2nd post injury = “The Texans reached.” Jameson being graded top 5 and picked up at 12 post injury = “The Lions are the smartest people to ever draft in all of the drafts in the history of drafts.”

Give me a freaking break.


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badboy

Hall of Fame
How are you going to evaluate a guy while he’s recovering from an ACL and can’t participate in pro days or combine?

And you bring up a great example of the “aided by surrounding talent” angle with Hopkins…except it was in college. He was lined up opposite Sammy Watkins and slipped to the 27th pick. I think everyone can argue he was undervalued and should have been a top 10 pick in 2013.


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Now you are just all over the board. You brought up comparison with Williams who also had a severe injury.

No my example was AJ and Hopkins in Nuk's first season with Houston.

I'm not evaluating Metchie during recovery. You posted a link evaluating him in Sept before season 1/2 over. That's cool for mocks during that time I did them. Not during draft.
 

Rumps02

Practice Squad
I don’t think you understand what I’m saying.

My Hopkins/Watkins argument is the exact same situation as Williams/Metchie. That is what you were playing at by insinuating that Metchie’s success this year was inflated due to Williams being on the other side of the field.

Watkins was a top 5 pick. Hopkins was a late 1. My point is, who ended up being the better receiver? By no means am I saying Metchie is better than Williams. I think Williams is a possible generational talent. I’m arguing that Williams’ production could have suppressed Metchie’s true value like Watkins did with Hopkins.

And why do you keep moving my evaluation link back in time? It’s a link from November dude. In one post you said it was October and now you’re saying September. By the time this conversation is over, you’ll be telling me those evaluations of Metchie is when he was a baby.

GTFO


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badboy

Hall of Fame
I don’t think you understand what I’m saying.

My Hopkins/Watkins argument is the exact same situation as Williams/Metchie. That is what you were playing at by insinuating that Metchie’s success this year was inflated due to Williams being on the other side of the field.

Watkins was a top 5 pick. Hopkins was a late 1. My point is, who ended up being the better receiver? By no means am I saying Metchie is better than Williams. I think Williams is a possible generational talent. I’m arguing that Williams’ production could have suppressed Metchie’s true value like Watkins did with Hopkins.

And why do you keep moving my evaluation link back in time? It’s a link from November dude. In one post you said it was October and now you’re saying September. By the time this conversation is over, you’ll be telling me those evaluations of Metchie is when he was a baby.

GTFO


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I read each of my replies to you twice and October not in any. September was a mistake and surprised it pulled your attention away from the point. Not sure why your angry when someone enters discussion with you and offers another POV.
I will GTFO
 

JWLCASPER

Waterboy

@CloakNNNdagger

I wish you were in these meetings.

I know you have posted about Stingley and Metchie injuries for all to read, but what would the medical staff “do” in these situations exactly to further understand the injuries? Physical therapy type drills? Document review? A little of both? What makes a team willing to make the multi-million investment in currently damaged goods? What would you do?
 

Dejaview

All Pro
just listening to the talking heads the past three days it seems not too much emphasis is placed on injuries by them. Even heard the Ojabe pick was a good one for 2023. How would that fly around here?
 

Rumps02

Practice Squad
Willis McGahee probably had one of the most horrific injuries I’ve ever seen and he ended up having a decent pro career. Again, I want to know the post-ACL data for college players turning pro. Not guys who are already in the pros.


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CWTexansFan

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Contributor's Club
Willis McGahee probably had one of the most horrific injuries I’ve ever seen and he ended up having a decent pro career. Again, I want to know the post-ACL data for college players turning pro. Not guys who are already in the pros.


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So wait, you're requesting data from future events that haven't occurred yet?
WTF indeed.
Or ESL?
 

TheRealJoker

Hall of Fame
So wait, you're requesting data from future events that haven't occurred yet?
WTF indeed.
Or ESL?
I think he means a study tracking players who tore their acl at a younger age (college) vs when they are well into pro career. It would make a difference if a 20 year old tears an acl vs a 27 year old. Especially considering the average NFL career shelf life the 27 year old would be on their way out even without injury.
 

Rumps02

Practice Squad
I think he means a study tracking players who tore their acl at a younger age (college) vs when they are well into pro career. It would make a difference if a 20 year old tears an acl vs a 27 year old. Especially considering the average NFL career shelf life the 27 year old would be on their way out even without injury.
Thank you. I didn’t realize I had to spell it out.


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zshawn10

All Pro
Report: Alabama Surgeon Not Worried About John Metchie, Jameson Williams Rehab


Former Alabama wide receivers Jameson Williams and John Metchie III are entering the NFL draft following torn ACLs last year. However, University of Alabama team orthopedic surgeon Dr. Lyle Cain said they are rehabbing well so far.
“They’re both doing really well,” Cain said, via The Athletic’s Jeff Howe. “I don’t expect either Jameson or John Metchie to have trouble with their knees. Once they recover and get past (the injury) to get back on the field, I don’t expect it to affect their career.”


“They’ve recovered quickly,” Cain said. “Both already have really good muscle strength and good function. If you see them walking around, you wouldn’t know they ever had surgery at this point.”


“Each team has their own risk tolerance for ACLs,” Cain said. “My expectation is both guys will look really good by the time they go to camp in July or August. I think both of them will be ready to play, but each team has their own process.”

 

CloakNNNdagger

Hall of Fame

@CloakNNNdagger

I wish you were in these meetings.

I know you have posted about Stingley and Metchie injuries for all to read, but what would the medical staff “do” in these situations exactly to further understand the injuries? Physical therapy type drills? Document review? A little of both? What makes a team willing to make the multi-million investment in currently damaged goods? What would you do?
I can certainly appreciate your questions. Physical exam, imaging, drills, medical records are all used to form opinions for the player's current state. But only retrospective or prospective studies of the type of injuries can give you a decent glimpse into how the player may fare in the future. Why our medical staff has come up with such a different assessment of Singley and Metchie's potential long-term future than I have is a question you would need to address to them.
 
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CloakNNNdagger

Hall of Fame
I think he means a study tracking players who tore their acl at a younger age (college) vs when they are well into pro career. It would make a difference if a 20 year old tears an acl vs a 27 year old. Especially considering the average NFL career shelf life the 27 year old would be on their way out even without injury.
Thank you. I didn’t realize I had to spell it out.


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When you review the surgical literature of young athletes vs older athletes, the prognosis for post injury performance and longevity is very similar, although, as would be expected, the degenerative processes have a significant head start in their progression.

Furthermore, the young athletes today are encouraged to return as soon as possible, because it is "safe."
******************************************************************************************


Young Athletes Who Return to Sport Before 9 Months After Anterior Cruciate Ligament Reconstruction Have a Rate of New Injury 7 Times That of Those Who Delay Return
Journal of Orthopaedic & Sports Physical Therapy
Published Online:January 31, 2020Volume50Issue2Pages83-90
https://www.jospt.org/doi/10.2519/jospt.2020.9071

Abstract

Objective

To investigate the association between sustaining a second anterior cruciate ligament (ACL) injury and (1) time to return to sport, (2) symmetrical muscle function, and (3) symmetrical quadriceps strength at the time of return to sport in young athletes after primary ACL reconstruction.

Design
Prospective cohort study.

Methods
Patient demographics and results from 5 tests of muscle function (2 strength tests and 3 hop tests) were extracted from a rehabilitation registry. A questionnaire was sent to athletes (15–30 years old) who were involved in knee-strenuous sport before the injury and had undergone primary ACL reconstruction to determine time of return to knee-strenuous sport (preinjury Tegner Activity Scale score of 6 or greater). We used the Cox proportional hazard regression model to analyze time to event.

Results
One hundred fifty-nine (32% of the initial sample) athletes (mean ± SD age, 21.5 ± 4.4 years; 50% female) were included. Athletes with a higher preinjury Tegner Activity Scale score had a higher rate of second ACL injury (hazard ratio = 2.1; 95% confidence interval: 1.2, 3.6; P<.01). Athletes who returned to knee-strenuous sport before 9 months after reconstruction had a higher rate of second ACL injury (hazard ratio = 6.7; 95% confidence interval: 2.6, 16.7; P<.001). There was no association between symmetrical muscle function or quadriceps strength and second ACL injury.

Conclusion
Returning to knee-strenuous sport before 9 months after ACL reconstruction was associated with an approximately 7-fold increased rate of sustaining a second ACL injury. Achieving symmetrical muscle function or quadriceps strength was not associated with new ACL injury in young athletes. J Orthop Sports Phys Ther 2020;50(2):83–90. doi:10.2519/jospt.2020.9071
 

Texansphan

Hall of Fame
They say that he should be able to return by June.............6 months post repair. I'd say that would be pushing things too fast...........that's when bad things happen.

Again, a WR post ACL where studies show an expected drop in performance and longevity.

I will post a scarier statistic about players and ACLs in the Injury Thread shortly.
In an interview, NC said that Metchie himself said he was ahead of schedule and will be good to go by game time but NC said take your time, we want to get this right.
 

CloakNNNdagger

Hall of Fame
In an interview, NC said that Metchie himself said he was ahead of schedule and will be good to go by game time but NC said take your time, we want to get this right.
I seldom listen to players' or teams' evaluation of the players' rehab status. How many times in the past have you heard "He is ahead of schedule," only to be disappointed when later in actuality this was the furthest thing from reality? Caserio, to his credit, has given a statement which is encouraging in how Metchie should be handled. But seldom does the GM make decisions on the return of injured players. And, if this approach is taken, it may give Mechie the best chance to succeed when he returns. But it still doesn't ensure his level of performance, his ability to stay on the field, or his longevity. Nevertheless, these are all things we all will be hoping and rooting for.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
First of all mechie is nowhere in the same Stratosphere as Jameson Williams pre-injury. I did not save the link but I have seen at least one review that the Texans got a steal with Metchie.
Young threw more to Metchie on 3td downs and in the RZ than he did to Williams
 

Texansphan

Hall of Fame
I seldom listen to players' or teams' evaluation of the players' rehab status. How many times in the past have you heard "He is ahead of schedule," only to be disappointed when later in actuality this was the furthest thing from reality? Caserio, to his credit, has given a statement which is encouraging in how Metchie should be handled. But seldom does the GM make decisions on the return of injured players. And, if this approach is taken, it may give Mechie the best chance to succeed when he returns. But it still doesn't ensure his level of performance, his ability to stay on the field, or his longevity. Nevertheless, these are all things we all will be hoping and rooting for.
I am sure NC will be listening to his team docs advice. He will likely want to protect his investment.
 

CloakNNNdagger

Hall of Fame
While that is true, who would you rather trust with decision making regarding when to play a guy - GM O'Brien or NC?
That's not how things work in the NFL. The team medical physician is the only one that can make the decision for when a player can return to play. Unfortunately, that decision too many times can and is strongly influenced by the HC. The GM seldom has significant input to that decision. As the head team physician is an employee of the team, conflict of interest is always present. He will empirically be influenced by that to get the product back on the field as soon as possible. Otherwise, he may be seen as "inadequate" at his job. As I've posted several times over the years, team physicians bid for their position. The aforementioned is why I would never opt to become a team physician.
 

Mr teX

Hall of Fame
Its much simpler than that. These dudes wanna play..period. They’ve spent their entire lives trying to get to where they are & They only have a finite amount of time to do so and make generation changing money. I ain’t mad at them for trying to get back a few weeks before its optimal. If all these guys listened to the docs, most these non qb players would only be able to play around 8 games a year.

& unless its truly debilitating i can understand why these team docs often paint the rosy picture of recovery for them…

Reminds me of James Woods’ speech to the younger idealized doc on any given sunday:

“I didnt have to ask him b/c i already knew what the answer was…. who am i to tell these men not to try to live their dreams? They made the choice to be warriors/gladiators long ago”
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
Its much simpler than that. These dudes wanna play..period. They’ve spent their entire lives trying to get to where they are & They only have a finite amount of time to do so and make generation changing money. I ain’t mad at them for trying to get back a few weeks before its optimal. If all these guys listened to the docs, most these non qb players would only be able to play around 8 games a year.

& unless its truly debilitating i can understand why these team docs often paint the rosy picture of recovery for them…

Reminds me of James Woods’ speech to the younger idealized doc on any given sunday:

“I didnt have to ask him b/c i already knew what the answer was…. who am i to tell these men not to try to live their dreams? They made the choice to be warriors/gladiators long ago”
Agreed, but when their performance is compromised or the risk of worse injuries happening because they were rushed back to early needs to be taken into account.
 

Texansphan

Hall of Fame
That's what scares me.
Metchie's original doctor/s would be still working with him right? I imagine they would have conferred with Texans doctors re- injuries and rehab details before they even selected him.
They are all fully aware of every detail including timeline to return.
 

Mr teX

Hall of Fame
Agreed, but when their performance is compromised or the risk of worse injuries happening because they were rushed back to early needs to be taken into account.
in most instances they aren’t rushed back by the docs themselves…they rush back b/c of the peer pressure of team comraderie..similar to a soldier who He gets shipped back home after spending years training and fighting alongside his brothers. you often here of these guys feeling guilt & in some instances wind up going back b/c they cant reconcile being home safe while their “brothers”are still over there risking life and limb.

they rush back for themselves too b/c they understand their livelihood is at stake. “Cant make the club in the tub”..

i know fol
 


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