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Watson’s a top 5 qb. Do you agree?

76Texan

Hall of Fame
Like I said, Rogers was already a dinosaur.

But let's get to Brady first.

The Pats had a complete and balanced team that year.
They have a running game, a defense, and a HC.
And a backup QB, without whom, Brady wouldn't have been in the SB to begin with.


Brady didn't play 3 great games to win the SB.
Heck, he only threw for 145 yards in that SB besides missing more than half the AFC championship game.
 

Texecutioner

Hall of Fame
Heck, he only threw for 145 yards in that SB besides missing more than half the AFC championship game.
Man, talk about ignoring everything on purpose. This post has Nick Wright or Max Kellerman written all over it.

Him and his offense smoked the Chargers who had one of the best defenses in the league last year by putting up 35 at half time and the game was already over. They ended up scoring into the 40's. The next week they went on to put up almost 40 in the AFC Championship Game where Brady let not one but TWO last minute drives to win that game at Arrowhead Stadium.

Brady had one of the best overall post seasons of all time. He didn't play awful in the SB either. His WR's outside of Edelman and a washed up Gronk didn't get open and that consisted of Hogan and Dorsett who is a first round bust that Indy let go of. He played within the strategy of their offense and made most of the plays that were there. They weren't playing from behind and he didn't need to force things to keep up on the scoreboard like he did in KC where he delivered there as well.

You're trying to squeeze one game out of the entire post season and trying to make the narrative about that when you don't get to the SB without his brilliance at QB in the first two games.
 

76Texan

Hall of Fame
By his 3rd yr Staubach won a SB.

By the end of Brady's 2nd yr he was leading his team to a last second GW FG drive in a SB.

Comparing these GOAT's to DW4 isn't just laughable. It's sad. We all wish DW4 was like these guys, but he's not.
As for Staubach, he threw for fewer than 300 yards COMBINED in the 3 games.
That Cowboys team was run first, defense second.
Staubach fit the description of a game manager very well.
 

sometexansfan

Blue Bomber
Man, talk about ignoring everything on purpose. This post has Nick Wright or Max Kellerman written all over it.

Him and his offense smoked the Chargers who had one of the best defenses in the league last year by putting up 35 at half time and the game was already over. They ended up scoring into the 40's. The next week they went on to put up almost 40 in the AFC Championship Game where Brady let not one but TWO last minute drives to win that game at Arrowhead Stadium.

Brady had one of the best overall post seasons of all time. He didn't play awful in the SB either. His WR's outside of Edelman and a washed up Gronk didn't get open and that consisted of Hogan and Dorsett who is a first round bust that Indy let go of. He played within the strategy of their offense and made most of the plays that were there. They weren't playing from behind and he didn't need to force things to keep up on the scoreboard like he did in KC where he delivered there as well.

You're trying to squeeze one game out of the entire post season and trying to make the narrative about that when you don't get to the SB without his brilliance at QB in the first two games.
He was talking about Brady's first super bowl run.
 

76Texan

Hall of Fame
This is a fair post.

You cold also say he's taken less sacks this yr because last yrs OL was putrid and this yrs OL is better although not as good as it should be.
That would take a lot of time to study, and I don't think I'm up to it- unfortunately.

But with a much worse defense, it limits the REAL opportunities to score on offense.
Not only that, it puts the burden on the QB to generate points, leading to more risk taken.
 

Speedy

Yeller Dweller
I'm not sure that using facts is an allowable debating tactic.
Facts? What are those?


Unfortunately you interact with so many posters that I would miss a lot of things they are discussing if I blocked you.
Small inconvenience with the way everyone keeps playing that game with those types. (Ha, didn't point out anyone specific so I don't think I'm in trouble) It’d be nice if the posts that people quote someone you have on ignore could be ignored too. My reason for using the ignore feature is to bypass the ignorance, especially when it's slung around 80 posts a day every single day. But watching people argue with it gets old too.

But like I said, small inconvenience.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
Lol

I think @steelbtexan will appreciate such a post. Love him or hate him it does spur conversation.
I just give my opinions.

I dont like that people equate my saying DW4 isn't the guy to lead the Texans org to a SB unless he does the things I've stated many times before as defending BOB. He's a middle of the pack HC. IMHO
 

Uncle Rico

Ur apology should be as loud as Ur disrespect was
Tannehill has been playing against a string of poor to mundane defense.

Watson played better against the Chargers.
True. Tanney had a great game vs the best defense he's seen so far in the Chargers (common win) (23/29 312 2:1) /// Deshaun's line was (25/34 351 3:0)

Total defense ranks for the last 6 Tenn games:

Chiefs - 20th
Jags - 23rd
Colts - 15th
Raiders - 28th
Carolina (common loss) - 24th = (Tanney 27/39 331 1:2) L 30-20 /// (Deshaun 21/33 160 0:0) L 16-10
Tampa - 17th

and now they get the vaunted Triple B Houston D!! ranked an intimidating 25th!! Titans are not that hot either at 19th, and Deshaun loves to play vs Tenn for whatever reason posting his best stats vs teams he's faced more than once so it should be a fun QB game. Vegas has the game as the highest point total (50 last time I checked) on the entire week 15 slate so expect some fireworks!

Here are Deshauns competition during Tanneys great run FWIW:

Broncos - 12th
Patriots - 1st (carved them up!!)
Colts - 15th
Ravens - 6th (yikes)
Jags - 23rd
Raiders - 28th
 

CloakNNNdagger

Hall of Fame
The new generation QBs have no idea how great they have it today. It's actually quite humorous how QBs are graded on how they react under pressure. I would dare say that their grades would be much worse across the board if the old "no holds barred rules" that existed back when monstrous crazy pass rushers were allowed to roam and scare the pgeez out of their "targets." Reactions by today's QBs to these unrestricted fire-breathing rushers would be much altered when they needed to fear for their lives while still having to concentrate on finding and hitting their receivers..........not to mention running the ball would be all but an afterthought.


 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
True. Tanney had a great game vs the best defense he's seen so far in the Chargers (common win) (23/29 312 2:1) /// Deshaun's line was (25/34 351 3:0)

Total defense ranks for the last 6 Tenn games:

Chiefs - 20th
Jags - 23rd
Colts - 15th
Raiders - 28th
Carolina (common loss) - 24th = (Tanney 27/39 331 1:2) L 30-20 /// (Deshaun 21/33 160 0:0) L 16-10
Tampa - 17th

and now they get the vaunted Triple B Houston D!! ranked an intimidating 25th!! Titans are not that hot either at 19th, and Deshaun loves to play vs Tenn for whatever reason posting his best stats vs teams he's faced more than once so it should be a fun QB game. Vegas has the game as the highest point total (50 last time I checked) on the entire week 15 slate so expect some fireworks!

Here are Deshauns competition during Tanneys great run FWIW:

Broncos - 12th
Patriots - 1st (carved them up!!)
Colts - 15th
Ravens - 6th (yikes)
Jags - 23rd
Raiders - 28th
DW4 has struggled against the Broncos/Colts/Raven/Raiders in the last month.

Way to inconsistent to win a SB even with a top rated defense which the Texans clearly dont have.
 

Uncle Rico

Ur apology should be as loud as Ur disrespect was
HOw are QBs supposed to be graded "under pressure"? I appreciate the trip down memory lane, but the NFL is innovating and the brutality of the 80's and 90's is gone forever. Snapping QBs legs in half shouldn't be some kind of badge of honor. This isn't the Roman Coliseum. If you want blood and guts watch the UFC. If you want to get an understanding of where certain QBs rank vs the Blitz those metrics are easily attainable.

CTE is real, and having to watch stuff like this on the field will actually TURN ME OFF from the sport rather than keep me engaged:


(i get the overall humor of the post Doc, not trying to be crass im just a little confused you would be advocating MORE contact)
 

TexansBull

Hall of Fame
The new generation QBs have no idea how great they have it today. It's actually quite humorous how QBs are graded on how they react under pressure. I would dare say that their grades would be much worse across the board if the old "no holds barred rules" that existed back when monstrous crazy pass rushers were allowed to roam and scare the pgeez out of their "targets." Reactions by today's QBs to these unrestricted fire-breathing rushers would be much altered when they needed to fear for their lives while still having to concentrate on finding and hitting their receivers..........not to mention running the ball would be all but an afterthought.


I wish the guys who played in that era would be taken care of better. Some of these multi million dollar contracts would help their healthcare and lifestyle immensely if they could carve out a portion of that, the TV rights, and other money making contracts.


 

76Texan

Hall of Fame
True. Tanney had a great game vs the best defense he's seen so far in the Chargers (common win) (23/29 312 2:1) /// Deshaun's line was (25/34 351 3:0)

Total defense ranks for the last 6 Tenn games:

Chiefs - 20th
Jags - 23rd
Colts - 15th
Raiders - 28th
Carolina (common loss) - 24th = (Tanney 27/39 331 1:2) L 30-20 /// (Deshaun 21/33 160 0:0) L 16-10
Tampa - 17th

and now they get the vaunted Triple B Houston D!! ranked an intimidating 25th!! Titans are not that hot either at 19th, and Deshaun loves to play vs Tenn for whatever reason posting his best stats vs teams he's faced more than once so it should be a fun QB game. Vegas has the game as the highest point total (50 last time I checked) on the entire week 15 slate so expect some fireworks!

Here are Deshauns competition during Tanneys great run FWIW:

Broncos - 12th
Patriots - 1st (carved them up!!)
Colts - 15th
Ravens - 6th (yikes)
Jags - 23rd
Raiders - 28th
Don't forget to take into consideration points allowed as well.
Some teams are more successful at bend but not breaking by forcing turnover.

The QB's own ST and defense also help.

And Watson is not just about the passing game but also his ability to avoid pressure and to make plays with his legs.
Tannehill, not so much.
 

Speedy

Yeller Dweller
No
Total defense ranks for the last 6 Tenn games:

Chiefs - 20th
Jags - 23rd
Colts - 15th
Raiders - 28th
Carolina (common loss) - 24th = (Tanney 27/39 331 1:2) L 30-20 /// (Deshaun 21/33 160 0:0) L 16-10
Tampa - 17th
I really hate how "total" defense (and offense too) ratings are only measured by yards given up. That doesn't even come close to telling you anything. We've got to start using DVOA. Or even Aikman is a better tool than just total yards.

Your point still stands as most of those defenses are ranked about the same or worse when DVOA is applied, though KC and TB are considerably better rated. KC-13, Jac-29, Ind-15, Oak-31, Car-23, TB-10

Sorry, just a pet peeve of mine when yards are used as the measuring stick. The Chargers, by NFL total yards standards, would have the 4th best defense. DVOA has them 21st. Even Aikman has them 18th.

Like I said, the point still stands in this instance as most of those defenses still suck. But that's off my chest. Carry on.

BTW, Texans defensive DVOA, 27th.
 

CloakNNNdagger

Hall of Fame
HOw are QBs supposed to be graded "under pressure"? I appreciate the trip down memory lane, but the NFL is innovating and the brutality of the 80's and 90's is gone forever. Snapping QBs legs in half shouldn't be some kind of badge of honor. This isn't the Roman Coliseum. If you want blood and guts watch the UFC. If you want to get an understanding of where certain QBs rank vs the Blitz those metrics are easily attainable.

CTE is real, and having to watch stuff like this on the field will actually TURN ME OFF from the sport rather than keep me engaged:


(i get the overall humor of the post Doc, not trying to be crass im just a little confused you would be advocating MORE contact)
I don't believe that I ever advocated MORE contact. I simply was making the point that assessment of how present day QBs react to the pressure (and potential trauma) they are "allowed" to experience are much lesser a challenge than had we had their assessments to compare to with them playing under the rules of the old brutal days.
 

Uncle Rico

Ur apology should be as loud as Ur disrespect was
I don't believe that I ever advocated MORE contact. I simply was making the point that assessment of how present day QBs react to the pressure (and potential trauma) they are "allowed" to experience are much lesser a challenge than had we had their assessments to compare to with them playing under the rules of the old brutal days.
you're right im sorry Doc. I had this article FRESH in my mind (like i had just read it) and I didnt mean to come across snippy, or greater than thou.


my apologies.
 

Uncle Rico

Ur apology should be as loud as Ur disrespect was
No


I really hate how "total" defense (and offense too) ratings are only measured by yards given up. That doesn't even come close to telling you anything. We've got to start using DVOA. Or even Aikman is a better tool than just total yards.

Your point still stands as most of those defenses are ranked about the same or worse when DVOA is applied, though KC and TB are considerably better rated. KC-13, Jac-29, Ind-15, Oak-31, Car-23, TB-10

Sorry, just a pet peeve of mine when yards are used as the measuring stick. The Chargers, by NFL total yards standards, would have the 4th best defense. DVOA has them 21st. Even Aikman has them 18th.

Like I said, the point still stands in this instance as most of those defenses still suck. But that's off my chest. Carry on.

BTW, Texans defensive DVOA, 27th.
absolutely valid point. kinda like if you want to use ePA for offensive diagnosis. Yards are the surface level variable that most still use so I just started there. Really if you get down to it points allowed should probably be the crown jewel for defensive teams, but so much of that falls on offensive counterpart turnovers in short fields and special teams play. Great point though I do agree with your application of the stat. (DVOA)


Game Stats
RkTeamGPts/GTotPtsScrm PlysYds/GYds/P1st/G3rd Md3rd Att3rd Pct4th Md4th Att4th PctPenPen YdsToP/GFUMLost
1New England Patriots1312.9168764264.84.515.53615923617359181428:042310
2Buffalo Bills1316.3212796296.84.818.45917134718398374229:25187
3San Francisco 49ers1317.6229766267.44.516.54415229722329378728:262414
4Chicago Bears1317.8232849326.55.019.661174351220609778230:20148
5Baltimore Ravens1418.4257818314.35.417.86417038617358468625:511910
6Pittsburgh Steelers1318.6242838310.94.819.55916436717419898330:592715
7Minnesota Vikings1319.2249842338.55.220.167173391425567361130:27117
8Los Angeles Chargers1319.3251751304.85.317.86715743712589383229:27143
9Tennessee Titans1319.6255862361.55.520.762170368204010489331:31149
10Denver Broncos1320.1261822331.25.219.06417337815539982130:47136
11Los Angeles Rams1320.2262871325.54.919.870185381323569072431:28178
12Dallas Cowboys1320.5267817326.25.220.65616334916569178630:53179
13Green Bay Packers1320.8270806367.95.920.55915039712588685328:50177
14Kansas City Chiefs1321.6281853364.85.622.057161351321629468230:44177
15Cleveland Browns1322.4291815346.05.520.55416233515339273229:44135
16Indianapolis Colts1322.7295786345.15.719.56716241615409691529:11158
17New Orleans Saints1322.8296820338.35.420.26016936920457455428:10138
18Philadelphia Eagles1323.2301782326.75.418.158165358126710483127:41146
19Houston Texans1323.8309821375.35.921.48016548613469474730:09159
20Washington Redskins1323.8310865359.85.421.384182461118617363732:53177
21New York Jets1424.5343910328.65.119.28119741311279882831:16258
22Seattle Seahawks1324.7321825375.55.921.55715138611548167929:142216
23Cincinnati Bengals1325325830399.56.320.47316644485010887831:1985
24Detroit Lions1325.8335868394.75.922.57416844310309374330:422011
25Jacksonville Jaguars1325.9337799373.16.120.66415442510508373229:08187
26Atlanta Falcons1326.4343818366.45.821.569159437145010288029:31144
27Carolina Panthers1327.7360850373.95.721.86516140466710185630:59167
28New York Giants1327.8362853376.35.720.8711744169679777432:05125
29Oakland Raiders1328.2366797376.46.122.37215546711647260029:33115
30Arizona Cardinals1328.8374878414.76.124.07917046211189184033:24208
31Tampa Bay Buccaneers1329.3381860354.35.420.9581713411225010087328:582213
32Miami Dolphins1330.7399848397.76.122.66915644510509192132:02131
 

Fred

Veteran
I hope no one takes this as a personal attack because it is NOT - I like SteelB without him (and the constant replies to him, what would there be - three post a day on this forum?) but I think he has pulled off the longest troll in the history of the internet.

Seriously - he picks what he knows is a controversial position then won't back down no matter what and the forum goes nuts for it. Rick Smith, defending BoB, now on to Watson.

It is not going to matter what proof you bring, the goalpost will move - the narrative will be on point and we will eat it up.

It's the NFL (or really most sports) - you don't have to be Nostradamus to pick your favorite team and proclaim loudly, to anyone that will listen, that they will never win it all until X or with X yada yada - and most of the time you will be proven correct. Most teams every year don't win it all - nobody goes to Vegas to bet on who WON"T win the SB.

He is the man of Steel - and if you think facts are his kryptonite, you are going to have a rough time of it.
I agree with you, he may be the longest running troll in the history of the internet.

However I disagree that his presence improves the traffic on this site. A lot of people either don't come here at all anymore or (like me) they come much less than they otherwise would, because they know that every single thread (Watson / O'Brien / Game week / Takeaways / whatever) is just going to be the ridiculous nonsense.

If someone else repeats the same point three or four times, one of the new Moderators will reply with "that's enough" but he is free to keep trolling the same nonsense hundreds of times. Even if the Mods don't care about it, it seems like Hookem would care.
 

Texecutioner

Hall of Fame
I agree with you, he may be the longest running troll in the history of the internet.

However I disagree that his presence improves the traffic on this site. A lot of people either don't come here at all anymore or (like me) they come much less than they otherwise would, because they know that every single thread (Watson / O'Brien / Game week / Takeaways / whatever) is just going to be the ridiculous nonsense.

If someone else repeats the same point three or four times, one of the new Moderators will reply with "that's enough" but he is free to keep trolling the same nonsense hundreds of times. Even if the Mods don't care about it, it seems like Hookem would care.
He isn't trolling by giving his opinions. Just because you don't like them, doesn't mean he isn't allowed to suggest that Watson isn't that good of a QB. That is really the main issue people take up with him regarding the Texans, is that belief. You could easily just put his account on ignore and keep it moving or you could breeze through his posts and not read them.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
How is telling a poster he should put me on ignore and I have him on ignore attacking the poster?

Also it should be fairly obvious I'm in his head. That's certainly not meant as an attack.

PM me with your response.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
He isn't trolling by giving his opinions. Just because you don't like them, doesn't mean he isn't allowed to suggest that Watson isn't that good of a QB. That is really the main issue people take up with him regarding the Texans, is that belief. You could easily just put his account on ignore and keep it moving or you could breeze through his posts and not read them.
My response post got deleted. LMAO

Apparently I wasn't playing nice enough with others. For the life of me I cant figure out how I attacked the poster.
 

dream_team

Hall of Fame
You guys just proved @steelbtexan right. At the beginning of the year he said Watson had to get better at reading defenses. Y’all got sand in your nether regions and said it was someone else’s fault.

The video posted y’all just said Watson has gotten better at reading defenses.

Good job guys. Good job.
That's a lame assessment though. ALL young QBs have to get better at reading defenses.
 

Mr teX

Hall of Fame
That's a lame assessment though. ALL young QBs have to get better at reading defenses.
I don't think its getting better reading defenses so much as it is with the little things like looking off defenders and being decisive when it comes to running vs. passing. This is the 1 thing Jackson does better than him right now. When that dude decides to run, there's 0 hesitation. DW4 tends to run around behind the LOS & that tends to get him in trouble.
 

mws

Waterboy
I can tell you one reason he may have done it. If he had gone down where he was it would have made the field goal at least a 30 yarder instead of 24 yards. Fairbairn has missed 5 extra points from the same distance this year.

I know we got a delay of game & it pushed it back anyway but that does not change the fact that Fairbairn has been anything but consistent from that distance this year & that Watson may have felt he needed every yard he could get for him.

I'm sure the Texans considered the points more important than the time off the clock.

Can you imagine what we would be saying if Watson intentionally went down & Fairbairn missed the FG?

Then that horrible defensive performance on the TD drive would have tied the game.

I love how Watson engineering a scoring drive in the closing minutes of the fourth quarter that puts the Texans up by 2 scores gets twisted to how terrible Watson is as a QB.
 

TexansBull

Hall of Fame
That's a lame assessment though. ALL young QBs have to get better at reading defenses.
Man stop the freaking press. Nobody is acting like that lol .
1. That is the assessment multiple posters made, but @steelbtexan became the poster child for. The other side couldn’t handle that DW had something to improve on and wasn’t some mythical god. People still point out things that DW needs to improve on, and people get upset like someone stole their birthday. It’s always someone else’s fault. No one can critique DW.

2. LMAOOOOOOOO!!! ThAt iS WhAt PeOpLe AcT LiKE!!!

Sound familiar? It should.
 


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