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Tunsil trade... Bad idea for Texans future?

Didn't say it had to be a 10 year contract. But 3 years? And after what you paid to get him? They already gave up 2 1sts, and made him the highest paid lineman. Where do they go from there? Yeah, he's the highest paid until the next, which may still be him.
Again three years is pretty standard. Watson's contract was 4 years and it was even bigger. Are you saying we shouldnt have signed him? We dod get his draft contract but his first year he went down with an injury and he spent tye next year as a tackling ,dummy so can you really say those extra years helped?

In a perfect world we would have had the Oline in place BEFORE drafting our franchise QB but that requires long term planning which you can't do with the GM and HC having a pissing contest.
 

dream_team

Hall of Fame
I don't know for sure, i do think there has been times that Watson has seemed to leave the pocket even though it was clean but that could be a survival instinct from his first couple of years.

I still say duel threats are harder to block for because a Manning or Brady style QB you know they aren't going to even think about running unless its the absolutely last resort but a duel threat if they think they can get some yards then they're gone. That means as a blocker you just went from blocking for a QB to blocking for a RB without warning.

Now the flip side is defenses have to both watch out for the pass game and running game every play but we are talking about blocking so in that regard it is harder.
If Watson is making a habit of leaving a clean pocket too early, then I agree, it's difficult to block for that. But if he's only leaving because he feels pressure, then that's on the OL.
 
If Watson is making a habit of leaving a clean pocket too early, then I agree, it's difficult to block for that. But if he's only leaving because he feels pressure, then that's on the OL.
Not sure thats a fair assessment, can you say for sure that everytime Watson has felt pressured he actually has been? Personally I think it might be as broad as it is long. Its hard to say that everytime Watson has taken a sack or felt pressured it on him or on the Oline. That is way to black and white to accurately judge the Oline play.

Frankly you would have to go back and examine each and every play to really determine what is happening. Hopefully the Texans are doing this.
 

Speedy

Yeller Dweller
Again three years is pretty standard. Watson's contract was 4 years and it was even bigger. Are you saying we shouldnt have signed him? We dod get his draft contract but his first year he went down with an injury and he spent tye next year as a tackling ,dummy so can you really say those extra years helped?

In a perfect world we would have had the Oline in place BEFORE drafting our franchise QB but that requires long term planning which you can't do with the GM and HC having a pissing contest.
I think a competent GM wouldn’t have been in a position to pay what he did to bring Tunsil here in the 1st place, and certainly would have negotiated a team friendlier deal. Hell, Tunsil didn’t even have representation when that deal got done. But it’s all been done, nothing you can do.

I’m just saying that after all the Texans have paid to get him and keep him 3 more years, the draft picks, the highest paid, and by quite a bit IIRC, that they aren’t done adding to extreme price already paid, if they’re going to keep him after this contract is up. So to answer the question asked above of whether I would take the draft picks offered for him now, I absolutely would. That’s all.

Even if new coaches do make these guys better, which I also believe can happen, that’s going to cost you even more to keep Tunsil. If this team didn’t have soooo many holes to fill, maybe that’s fine. But they do. And they’re not going to be able to address much of that with limited draft capital and being up against the cap.
 
With a bad center you can't have a quality line
I'm not down on Tunsil even if I still don't feel the deal was worth it. I do understand their desperation in getting a good LT. To your post, sometimes I notice that when the tackles are riding a rusher beyond the pocket it isn't as effective because the interior is being collapsed in too far. It makes it look like the tackles are sucking and need to push the rusher at a greater angle or even deeper beyond the perceived pocket.
 

Speedy

Yeller Dweller
I wasn't complaining, just asked a question
A question that had nothing to do with the conversation. Really no reason at all to type it out and hit reply but that didn’t stop you. And now we have yet another thread that has nothing to do with the topic. But hey, at least it didn’t drift off to it being all about Watson’s faults like all the rest have, so props for that, I guess.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
You make it sound like good line coaches, or good coaches in general, are easy to find as well. I agree most aren’t as bad as a Devlin but while you are looking around the league you might look to see have many lines there are that their QB gets hammered vs how many that are walls. Hint, there are more bad lines than good ones.
Great post.

The Texans are a better team with Tunsil than without him. He will lockdown the LT position for the next decade and that's worth what they paid for him.

Fact is to get a LT as good as Tunsil they would have had to use a 1st to trade up and get a LT that you hope becomes as good as Tunsil already is.
 

Texanmike02

Hall of Fame
Contributor's Club
You're not locking him down though, if you can't sign him to more than 3 years at a time while breaking the bank every time. So, yes, I would take that offer right now.
That logic would mean that you always prefer draft picks over proven talent. In a league where there aren't enough true starting QB and LT for everyone to have one, I will make that call on some other positions but not LT or QB.

Im curious, how do you view the Hopkins trade?
 

Corrosion

Idealist
Staff member
That logic would mean that you always prefer draft picks over proven talent. In a league where there aren't enough true starting QB and LT for everyone to have one, I will make that call on some other positions but not LT or QB.

Im curious, how do you view the Hopkins trade?

This is really the leagues fault .... They have slanted the rules so far in favor of the passing game that its broken the game. Teams without those very top tier QB's are at a significant disadvantage that is virtually impossible to make up.

Much like the NBA , the NFL is marketing stars instead of teams and there's no bigger star than the QB.




The NFL has put a lot of these rules in place because of "safety" .... can't hit the QB low , can't hit him high , can't hit him late , can't drive him down or land on him , incidental contact generates a penalty and it seems to lead to controversial calls that almost always go in the favor of the QB.
Then there's the rules changes on the back end .... to protect the pass catchers. DB's can't touch them.
 

Speedy

Yeller Dweller
That logic would mean that you always prefer draft picks over proven talent. In a league where there aren't enough true starting QB and LT for everyone to have one, I will make that call on some other positions but not LT or QB.

Im curious, how do you view the Hopkins trade?
That logic doesn’t mean I prefer draft picks over proven talent at all. My beef isn’t having that particular LT on the team, it’s what it cost to acquire him, pay him, and what it will eventually cost to keep him more than 3 years. A competent GM wouldn’t have been taken to the wood shed in the deal. Hell, a competent GM might not have been in a position to be that desperate in the first place.

I will say that draft picks and the development of them are important in that it helps keep you out of cap hell. You can’t pay everybody, even though the Texans try to. Martin 3rd highest paid center, Fairbairn 4th highest paid kicker, Mercilus’ big pay day, $9M for Cobb, Cooks, David Johnson, etc. You have to have players on the cheap that you can develop.

As for the Hopkins trade, if you thought you were painting me into the picks over talent deal, I’ve made my thoughts well known that it was one of the worst deals in history. And a stupid one for the reasons they gave.

But I’ve also made it known that if you just absolutely had to trade him for whatever reason, that you’ve got to get adequate compensation in return. I can’t think of a single deal in the OB era, that the Texans didn’t get hosed. Carlos Hyde is probably the only one, but then they go and let him walk because they don’t want to pay him $5M. No, they’d much rather pay Johnson $12M.

So I agree that it’s important to have that LT, but what has it really done for this Texans team? This team needs a lot, A LOT. And because of the price paid to get that LT, and the highest paid contract he ended up getting, that plays a part in addressing those lots of needs. And by the time they get their heads above water there, it’ll be contract time again for both Tunsil and Watson. Then what?
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
That logic doesn’t mean I prefer draft picks over proven talent at all. My beef isn’t having that particular LT on the team, it’s what it cost to acquire him, pay him, and what it will eventually cost to keep him more than 3 years. A competent GM wouldn’t have been taken to the wood shed in the deal. Hell, a competent GM might not have been in a position to be that desperate in the first place.

I will say that draft picks and the development of them are important in that it helps keep you out of cap hell. You can’t pay everybody, even though the Texans try to. Martin 3rd highest paid center, Fairbairn 4th highest paid kicker, Mercilus’ big pay day, $9M for Cobb, Cooks, David Johnson, etc. You have to have players on the cheap that you can develop.

As for the Hopkins trade, if you thought you were painting me into the picks over talent deal, I’ve made my thoughts well known that it was one of the worst deals in history. And a stupid one for the reasons they gave.

But I’ve also made it known that if you just absolutely had to trade him for whatever reason, that you’ve got to get adequate compensation in return. I can’t think of a single deal in the OB era, that the Texans didn’t get hosed. Carlos Hyde is probably the only one, but then they go and let him walk because they don’t want to pay him $5M. No, they’d much rather pay Johnson $12M.

So I agree that it’s important to have that LT, but what has it really done for this Texans team? This team needs a lot, A LOT. And because of the price paid to get that LT, and the highest paid contract he ended up getting, that plays a part in addressing those lots of needs. And by the time they get their heads above water there, it’ll be contract time again for both Tunsil and Watson. Then what?
This is why they will have to nail both the GM and HC jobs. At 40 mil per yr they are already in the position you dont want them to be in in the future.
 
This is really the leagues fault .... They have slanted the rules so far in favor of the passing game that its broken the game. Teams without those very top tier QB's are at a significant disadvantage that is virtually impossible to make up.

Much like the NBA , the NFL is marketing stars instead of teams and there's no bigger star than the QB.




The NFL has put a lot of these rules in place because of "safety" .... can't hit the QB low , can't hit him high , can't hit him late , can't drive him down or land on him , incidental contact generates a penalty and it seems to lead to controversial calls that almost always go in the favor of the QB.
Then there's the rules changes on the back end .... to protect the pass catchers. DB's can't touch them.
Which given that the NFL is pushing stars you would think they would add in their version of the "Byrd Rule" so that teams can sign those big name QBs without it killing their ability to put a team around that star. Even if you have a big name if they have no one to throw it to or no one to block for them because their team had to take whoever they could afford it makes for less exciting games and therefore less interest. I don't just seems to me that the only thing that keeps the NFL in business is that they have a monopoly on football in the USA.
 

thunderkyss

Just win baby!!!
Staff member
Contributor's Club
Now stands at #3 & 35, and you can scratch any perceived value for gaining Stills.
We could hardly be any worse without Tunsil than we are with him. It isn’t really his fault, but this is one of the worst trades in the 15 years I’ve been following this sport.
In hindsight yes. It looks bad. Real bad.

But if we had to do it all over again with a coach other than O'Brien I'd welcome it.

& it's like we used those picks 2 years early
 

JB

Old Curmudgeon
Contributor's Club
Now stands at #3 & 35, and you can scratch any perceived value for gaining Stills.
We could hardly be any worse without Tunsil than we are with him. It isn’t really his fault, but this is one of the worst trades in the 15 years I’ve been following this sport.
What makes it so bad is doing it so close to the time we gave up 2 1's for DW4.
 

thunderkyss

Just win baby!!!
Staff member
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With no hindsight it was never that great. And if we had to do it over again with a coach/GM other than OB, something may have gotten done that wasn't so bad.
Hopefully we won't have to find out if the next regime can develop a LT. I mean I hope they do, but yeah, I wish we were never in such a position to begin with, much less 4 years in a row.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
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Now stands at #3 & 35, and you can scratch any perceived value for gaining Stills.
We could hardly be any worse without Tunsil than we are with him. It isn’t really his fault, but this is one of the worst trades in the 15 years I’ve been following this sport.
It could be worse if DW4 had blown out another ACL/punctured another lung.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
What makes it so bad is doing it so close to the time we gave up 2 1's for DW4.
True, this is why I wanted RS to build up the OL before making a move to get their QB of the future.

BTW, After spending the draft capital to get DW4 and DW4 suffering an ACL and a punctured lung in the 2 seasons before the Tunsil trade, plus watching Davenport suck to the tune of ruining Lamar Miller's career there was no guarantee DW4 wouldn't have suffered another bad injury. Injury in fact was the quite likely outcome for DW4 if the trade wouldn't have been made. It would've been very entertaining to see this MB if the trade hadn't happened and DW4 had gotten injured. (No this doesn't mean I was/am rooting for DW4 to get injured.)
 

beerlover

Hall of Fame
This maybe the only trade up for consideration that was a good trade by O’Brian but only cause he hates the draft, didn’t want to do the work or get embarrassed and worked by other GM’s. Hell no this wasn’t a good trade for a good GM but it was safest path for butt chin!
 

Decim8

Waterboy
True, this is why I wanted RS to build up the OL before making a move to get their QB of the future.
I didn't blame RS drafting watson or any qb for that matter when he did, especially since after what hoyer displayed in the playoffs against the chiefs. We also had a pretty decent oline when OB walked in, not the best but definitely functioned a whole lot better than this group imo
 
With no hindsight it was never that great. And if we had to do it over again with a coach/GM other than OB, something may have gotten done that wasn't so bad.
With no hindsight it was simply a deal that was on price point and not a great bargain. Sometimes you have to pay full value for something and thats what Texans did. What nobody knew or even suspected at the time was that what was traded was going to shoot up so much in value. Thats why it looks bad in hindsight but if the Texans had drafted both of those first rounds in the low to mid 20s, as they had been and were predicted to do, then trading those for a LT that is a two time pro bowler and has allowed 2 sacks would have been a bargain.

And yes everyone always brings up they should have signed a new contract, as though Texans could make a player sign a new contract just by telling them to, but with the CBA coming up, the cap expected to sky rocket and Tunsil knowing he was going to reset the market there was no way he was going to sign a new deal. So then the next reply is "they should have walked away from the deal" ok great so where do you get a LT that wasn't going to be as affective as a cardboard cutout? Your other options were a washed up vet on roller skates, a guy that was so bad he broke his own teammates ankle or whatever bargain bin LT they could dig up around the league. I'm sure any of those choices would have further helped Watson at the QB position and given him that warm and fuzzy feeling that his blind spot was covered.

Say what you want but Watson has made leaps forward this season, even if the team as a whole has nose dived backwards, and I think part of that is he knows that he doesn't have to always have eyes in the back of his head. Now he just has to worry about them charging up the center like no one is there but at least he can see those guys.
 
True, this is why I wanted RS to build up the OL before making a move to get their QB of the future.

BTW, After spending the draft capital to get DW4 and DW4 suffering an ACL and a punctured lung in the 2 seasons before the Tunsil trade, plus watching Davenport suck to the tune of ruining Lamar Miller's career there was no guarantee DW4 wouldn't have suffered another bad injury. Injury in fact was the quite likely outcome for DW4 if the trade wouldn't have been made. It would've been very entertaining to see this MB if the trade hadn't happened and DW4 had gotten injured. (No this doesn't mean I was/am rooting for DW4 to get injured.)
Even if Watson didn't get injured he would have spent so much time running for his life that any kind of accurate passing would have been out the window. No matter who the QB is if they have to start scrambling on every play pretty much as soon as the snap is made then they aren't going to make many plays.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
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I didn't blame RS drafting watson or any qb for that matter when he did, especially since after what hoyer displayed in the playoffs against the chiefs. We also had a pretty decent oline when OB walked in, not the best but definitely functioned a whole lot better than this group imo
By the time DW4 was drafted the OL sucked.

Remember the beating DW4/Savage took? They went through like 4 QB's that yr because of injury. That directly lead to the 4-12 season and with the Os trade they didn't have 1st or 2nd rd picks. Sound familiar?

All of this has helped lead the Texans to where they are today? Just like with drafting Carr without an OL and drafting DW4 without an OL and not having 1st or 2nd rd picks twice in a 4 yr span, you cant build a roster like this. Bad history is repeating itself again on multiple fronts.
 
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Corrosion

Idealist
Staff member
I think a competent GM wouldn’t have been in a position to pay what he did to bring Tunsil here in the 1st place, and certainly would have negotiated a team friendlier deal. Hell, Tunsil didn’t even have representation when that deal got done. But it’s all been done, nothing you can do.

I’m just saying that after all the Texans have paid to get him and keep him 3 more years, the draft picks, the highest paid, and by quite a bit IIRC, that they aren’t done adding to extreme price already paid, if they’re going to keep him after this contract is up. So to answer the question asked above of whether I would take the draft picks offered for him now, I absolutely would. That’s all.

Even if new coaches do make these guys better, which I also believe can happen, that’s going to cost you even more to keep Tunsil. If this team didn’t have soooo many holes to fill, maybe that’s fine. But they do. And they’re not going to be able to address much of that with limited draft capital and being up against the cap.

We're on the same page here when it comes to the cost of acquiring and keeping Tunsil ...

But once the trade was made , it was unavoidable.

The fact that he wouldn't agree to an extension as part of the trade would have been a deal breaker for me. I wouldn't have made the trade and moved on to other options.

What's crazy is that despite the decrease in sacks , the offense has been statistically worse since he joined the team - They averaged more points with Davenport and Lamm starting than they have in the two years with Tunsil & Howard.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
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We're on the same page here when it comes to the cost of acquiring and keeping Tunsil ...

But once the trade was made , it was unavoidable.

The fact that he wouldn't agree to an extension as part of the trade would have been a deal breaker for me. I wouldn't have made the trade and moved on to other options.

What's crazy is that despite the decrease in sacks , the offense has been statistically worse since he joined the team - They averaged more points with Davenport and Lamm starting than they have in the two years with Tunsil & Howard.
Could be because DC's have figured out how to defend DW4.
 

thunderkyss

Just win baby!!!
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Initially, I was okay with the trade. However, for the draft picks and contract, I was expecting more than just a solid pass protector. Do they even run behind Tunsil?
In the end it's part of the BO'b ain't here no more package deal.

Even he should understand it's not about a lack of talent. There's a lot of things he didn't learn & bring with him from New England, from game prep, to scouting, to putting the pieces together.

& really, all he had to do was bring in a Daboll or someone like that to help him fix the offense.
 

Corrosion

Idealist
Staff member
Initially, I was okay with the trade. However, for the draft picks and contract, I was expecting more than just a solid pass protector. Do they even run behind Tunsil?

I've said similar statements and complained about the contract quite a few times - I expect more than just a pass protector for the investment. They are paying him as if he's a game changer and simple fact is , he aint.
For what he's getting paid , you'd expect to be able to run behind him any and every time and get 3rd / 4th and 1 or 2. They can't run behind either side of this OL and get 3 inches much less 3 feet.
Yep , he's a very good pass blocker .... and that's about it.
 


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