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Takeaways from the Ravens game.

TheKDog

Hall of Fame
Contributor's Club
My takeaway?:

OBriens offense ineffective yet again against an upper tier pass defense.

The top pass defenses he's faced this year according to Football Outsiders advanced defensive efficiency ratings are:

Carolina - #3
KC - #5
Indy - #6
Bal - #8



Note_ Jax is #10 and falling, but you can throw out that second game because they are a vastly inferior defense now that they got rid of Ramsey.
 

KarlK

Waterboy
My takeaway?:

OBriens offense ineffective yet again against an upper tier pass defense.

The top pass defenses he's faced this year according to Football Outsiders advanced defensive efficiency ratings are:

Carolina - #3
KC - #5
Indy - #6
Bal - #8



Note_ Jax is #10 and falling, but you can throw out that second game because they are a vastly inferior defense now that they got rid of Ramsey.
Oh yeah.....I forgot:

Watson has good game? It's because of Watson.

Watson has bad game? It's because O'Brien sucks.

Alot of people still refuse to accept that their savior is not a savior.
 

Texansballer74

Hall of Fame
My takeaway?:

Watson ineffective yet again against an upper tier pass defense.

The top pass defenses he's faced this year according to Football Outsiders advanced defensive efficiency ratings are:

Carolina - #3
KC - #5
Indy - #6
Bal - #8

His combined numbers are 92 / 138 917 Yards 2 TDs 5 INTs

Note_ Jax is #10 and falling, but you can throw out that second game because they are a vastly inferior defense now that they got rid of Ramsey. When they had Ramsey, of course, Watson struggled against them: 16/29 155 yards the first game.

Ouch but you have to include the OC. Hasn't put in a solid plan to counteract those type of defenses.
 

Texansballer74

Hall of Fame
Especially when a fan of the opposing team sees the same issues we see. There was a guy on the game thread saying why didn't we run such and such plays against the Ravens. Year 6 of the same results.

Yeah I seen that. Crazy how an outsider looking in noticed that right off the bat. Even a few of my buddies out here asked why aren't we running the offense we ran a few weeks ago.
 

Texansballer74

Hall of Fame
He even asked where was our 2 minute drill. :crying:

This has to be his worst coached game of the year. It's like everything fell apart. We were just raving about how improved the offensive line was. How quickly we were getting the ball out. The beautiful misdirection plays and etc. I just knew this game was going to be a shootout, either the team having the ball last winning it.

So freaking disappointed. Smh
 
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Max

Veteran
We're 6-1 when Watson runs 4 times or more in a game (the loss is to the saints). Watson's passing stats for those 7 games: 167/235 (71%) 1964 yards (281/game) 17tds/3int's. Rushing stats: 46 rushes for 235 yards (5.1 ypc) 4 tds.

We're 0-3 when Watson runs 3 times or less in a game (against Carolina/Colts/Ravens). Watson's passing stats for those 3 games: 62/96 (65%) 637 yards (212/game) 1td/3int's. Rushing stats: 9 rushes 56 yards (6.2 ypc) 1td

This is an oversimplified view of things and I don't think that the winning formula is to simply make sure that Watson runs 4 times or more. But I do think that it tells part of the story that Watson is more comfortable as a passer when he's out of the pocket and able to make plays w/ his legs. I think that it also tells part of the story when it comes to our game plans. Why is it that when we play against teams with better pass defenses (Carolina/Colts/Ravens) that we don't call the game that Watson is most comfortable w/? I've said it before that I truly believe that BOB out-thinks himself. Yesterday was just another example of that. And yes, Watson sucked yesterday. That doesn't mean that he can't be put in a better position to bring out the most of his talent as Lamar Jackson consistently is.
 

Malloy

Hall of Fame
Especially when a fan of the opposing team sees the same issues we see. There was a guy on the game thread saying why didn't we run such and such plays against the Ravens. Year 6 of the same results.
Because 'someone knows better'...
 

badboy

Hall of Fame
He's not elite. All it takes is a Google search for top NFL left tackles and he doesn't even crack top ten on anyone's list, highest I saw him rated was #11. He does rank #2 in the NFL for player with most accepted penalties with 11.


From August 31, 2019:

Tunsil, the No. 13 overall selection in the 2016 NFL Draft, ranks 21st among the 87 tackles with 400-plus pass-blocking snaps over the past two seasons in pass-blocking grade (79.8). In his three years in the NFL, Tunsil has yet to earn a single-season pass-blocking grade below 74.5.
Where Tunsil struggles is the run game. The 6-foot-5, 315-pounder ranks 50th in run-blocking grade (53.8) among the 64 NFL offensive tackles with 400-plus run-blocking snaps over the past two seasons. He’s also yet to earn a single-season run-blocking grade above 62.3 in his career.


I'm fairly confident 80 was talking about Tunsil this season and your info is pre-Texans. At this point, I really don't care what his rank/rating was in Miami. More on this I will post later.
 

badboy

Hall of Fame
The defense is undermanned. I think we all know that. I blame O'Brien for some of that, but injuries are just chance, for the most part. I think RAC is making a somewhat edible chicken salad out of chickensh!t. It is what it is. We all expected Lamar Jackson to get his, and he did.

The offense, however, is adequately manned. To only turn in 7 points is unacceptable. They've somehow turned Deandre Hopkins into a short yardage possession receiver. They seldom use Duke Johnson, who is widely regarded as one of the better receiving backs in football. Coutee has been a non-factor, for the most part. Akins has shown himself to be at least a capable receiver and gets probably one or two looks a game. Stills came over and immediately showed why he has always been such a deep threat, but has been erratically utilized, at best. I'd say under-utilized.

I'm a charter member of the O'Brien Haters Club. You can check the early pages of the Fire His Ass thread. So I have my doubts as to what sort of offense he's running here, but here's the thing - when Watson hits the back foot of his drop, that ball needs to come out. He consistently fails at this one simple aspect of being a QB. A well oiled offense does that. So is Watson faced with no open receivers on the back step of his drop THAT OFTEN? Almost every single play? Or is he trying to play hero ball? I don't have access to the All-22, so I'm all ears to anyone who breaks it down, but I know I saw Watson pass up open checkdowns and short receivers yesterday in the 1st quarter. Never mind later in the game, when circumstances change. Early in the game, before it's time to abandon your shitty game plan, he passed over open receivers and wasted plays. I know the #JesusInCleats crowd doesn't want to talk about that, but the guy who touches the ball every play and decides who else gets to touch the ball has to learn to be a facilitator.

I'm a Watson fan and I've defended his mistakes in other threads on this board. I think he's a young QB that has some development to show, but I also think he will. He shows all the signs of being an absolutely special QB - like, Brady/Manning/Brees special. But he's not there yet, and the biggest reason is his penchant for holding on to the ball too damn long. And honestly, he and every other person on the face of the planet (even soccer fans) knows you can't hold on to the ball that long and expect your blockers to hold up. So he's making a conscious decision to take risks. There are times to take risks, and those times come AFTER you've established your normal.

Now, I ask again, is he facing a situation where no one is open that quickly? Because at this point, I just want to know how much of this is on the offensive "system" and how much is Watson striving for gold on every other play? Sustain drives. That's what I want to see. Sustain drives and then pop Stills or Fuller loose every once in a while.
Man you saved me lots of typing! I didn't expect to win vs Ravens (as I said vs Panthers) and we didn't. Also, I am not going to compare our game plan/playing the Jags game 2 to yesterday. IMO he who gets in first punch to the nose is often winner--in a quick fight. This was a three hour but whipping reminded me of both Ali- Patterson fights. Watson punched himself with the careless fumble and as others say played shell shocked. Then the non interference call impacted him also. One or two plays should define the game but it defined the way this team played; some of that is on coaches and most on players.

Most didn't think we'd win before we knew #90 and #99 wouldn't play. I actually thought Roby and Fuller would play but doubt they would've helped much. What happened to the "mirror-shadow" that this MB and the radio guys yakked on about all week? I never saw one play that I could identify one player who followed LJ as a shadow.

Hopkins has never been a great touchdown maker but sheesh- four? Worse since 2016. He has turned into Andre Johnson being forced to hang around behind or just past LOS to get us a 3-5 yard first down. Isn't that what we have Duke Johnson and TE Fells for? The latter had one catch (18 yards)--one catch? How does that happen?

Tunsil should be much better versus Colts as then should our line. Does anyone remember the play where both Tunsil and Scharping allowed their guy free access to #4? I went ballistic and had my host replay it three times!

It was a butt whipping but TBH I wasn't as upset as I usually am. Colts is a must win for me and we should at least give Pats a game but I ain't laying no coin at all down for either of those games.

Aren't you glad Eriadoc save me some typing?
 

Speedy

Yeller Dweller
Hopkins has never been a great touchdown maker but sheesh- four? Worse since 2016.
Before this season Nuk's lowest yards per catch for the season was 12.2 in '16 when Brock was throwing the rock to him. He's at 9.9 through 10 games this year. That's quite a difference.
 

eriadoc

Texan-American
Before this season Nuk's lowest yards per catch for the season was 12.2 in '16 when Brock was throwing the rock to him. He's at 9.9 through 10 games this year. That's quite a difference.
Yep. Like I said up top, they've somehow managed to turn Hopkins into a short yardage possession receiver. Talk about playing to your strengths. To his credit, Hopkins has been thrust into this role and is trying to be the best short yardage possession receiver he can be.
 

eriadoc

Texan-American
For the life of me, I don't understand why we don't run screens. I mean real RB screens, not that WR bubble screen that works once every three games or so, even though we see it two or three times a game.
Screens are designed to take advantage of defensive penetration. The Texans never allow defensive penetration?
 

steelbtexan

Hall of Fame
Ouch but you have to include the OC. Hasn't put in a solid plan to counteract those type of defenses.
When does the QB have to take ownership of having a bad game? If it isn't this game he never has too. Blame BOB if you wish, but if you continuely have have bad games against good defenses maybe you're a large part of the problem.
 

theCATALYST

"Fake" Fan
If ownership forced a real OC on O'Brien, would it fix our offense? I think so. Watson is a talent that I don't believe we will see under center for us for quite some time. The problem is we don't have anyone who knows how to utilize that talent and cover up his deficiencies. I would love to see us transition back to a west coast offensive philosophy.

Defense is in need of a new coordinator as well. I love Rac, however he, unlike his scheme, is unwilling to bend.
 

TexansBull

Hall of Fame
If ownership forced a real OC on O'Brien, would it fix our offense? I think so. Watson is a talent that I don't believe we will see under center for us for quite some time. The problem is we don't have anyone who knows how to utilize that talent and cover up his deficiencies. I would love to see us transition back to a west coast offensive philosophy.

Defense is in need of a new coordinator as well. I love Rac, however he, unlike his scheme, is unwilling to bend.
OB can’t work with other people, only his people.
 

steelbtexan

Hall of Fame
I’ve said it’s the entire team fault several times already. It is not just Watson’s fault.
Agreed

Would you agree that the team goes as the QB goes, like every other team in the NFL and that right now regardless of BOB's offense, Watson is to inconsistent in reading defenses to win a SB?
 

steelbtexan

Hall of Fame
It’s been 6 years of ineptitude by OB and you still don’t blame him for anything.
2 years since RS left, now at least and I said at the time it would take 3 years to fix what the RS regime screwed up. Nothing so far has changed.y mind and that's with his young QB learning on the job. You can't speed up the learning curve.

I've said BOB' s faults many times, you must not have read those posts. Off the top of my head.

1. Not firing Devlin
2. Not changing the offense sooner
3. TO/challenge usage
4. Before this yr to conservative

Etc...
 

disaacks3

Moderator
Staff member
Exactly,

Do you think he can overcome this?

Most QB's cant.

More importantly do you give a guy with a case of hapy feet 35-40 mil per yr over 5 yrs?
Watson was an MVP candidate last week and had the worst game of his career. If several good games don't make for a trend, then one piss poor one doesn't either.

If you want to hang your hat on Watson never "overcoming" the last game, so be it. I'm betting the other way.
 

Texansballer74

Hall of Fame
Agreed

Would you agree that the team goes as the QB goes, like every other team in the NFL and that right now regardless of BOB's offense, Watson is to inconsistent in reading defenses to win a SB?

It's too early in his career to put that on his shoulders like that. It's the coaches job to be able to put them in situations to help them succeed. He did that several times this season. But not in this game.
 

steelbtexan

Hall of Fame
Watson was an MVP candidate last week and had the worst game of his career. If several good games don't make for a trend, then one piss poor one doesn't either.

If you want to hang your hat on Watson never "overcoming" the last game, so be it. I'm betting the other way.
The trend is he plays worst in big gameshe's and is not very good in big gamese and he'sterrible against top tier defenses, as Karl K pointed out.
 
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steelbtexan

Hall of Fame
It's too early in his career to put that on his shoulders like that. It's the coaches job to be able to put them in situations to help them succeed. He did that several times this season. But not in this game.
At what point is he responsible?

It wouldn't have mattered if BOB called a perfect game last Sunday. BTW, BPB was far from calling a perfect game.
 

Omerta

Waterboy
The trend is he plays worst in big he's and is not very good, sometimes terrible against top tier defenses, as Karl K pointed out.
Well nobody plays well against a top tier defense. That is why they are top tier.

I am all for recognizing the faults. That said, before this game the talk on this board was that Watson had some imaginary "championship" trait that Lamar didn't , and that he was so much better than Lamar at throwing.

Now that talk has completely swung in the other direction. He is not some destroyer of worlds. He is what he is. A young, talented guy who is still growing. He is also not irredeemable trash either, he is 24.
 

Texansballer74

Hall of Fame
At what point is he responsible?

It wouldn't have mattered if BOB called a perfect game last Sunday. BTW, BPB was far from calling a perfect game.

What are you talking about. We've all agreed he had a terrible game

It's not about calling a perfect game. It's about making the right adjustments when you see you entire offense as a whole struggling.
 

TheKDog

Hall of Fame
Contributor's Club

Rivers is dropping some offensive perspective ALL 22 and its pretty much what everyone expected. Not good.
Lol.

Two wrs running into each other is an obrien special

Tweet from @riversmccown: Watson's third sack. Reads man on the TE motion. Looks to the left and sees Coutee and Hopkins in the same damn area. Josh Bynes carries them and the Ravens corral everybody.

Green dog (late unblocked) rusher gets Watson before he can get around to Kenny Stills on the post. https://t.co/emSn92RPD6
 

disaacks3

Moderator
Staff member
The trend is he plays worst in big he's and is not very good, sometimes terrible against top tier defenses, as Karl K pointed out.
Here's how that "trend" played out against Top-10 defenses in 2018...using NFL standard Yds/Gm allowed. (Colts were 11th)

22/32 310 Yds 2 TD 1 INT

33/44 375 Yds 1 TD 1 INT

15/25 177 Yds 1 TD 2 INT

12/24 139 Yds 1 TD 0 INT

19/24 210 Yds 2 TD 0 INT

25/35 234 Yds 0 TD 0 INT

Not exactly horrid, right?

Let's try 2019. (Ravens are 14th)

20/38 268 Yds 3 TD 1 INT

25/34 351 Yds 3 TD 0 INT

We can cherry-pick stats all day, but the Ravens "Passing" Defense is currently 18th, Carolina is 14th, the Jags are 8th, the Chargers are 4th...and he tore the Chargers apart.
 

TheKDog

Hall of Fame
Contributor's Club
Tweet from @riversmccown: My overall takeaway was simply that the Ravens often understood enough about Houston's plays to know where the first read was and attack it.

On purely the process of the plays, they looked like the team with an extra week to prepare. Read into that what you will.
 

Uncle Rico

Ur apology should be as loud as Ur disrespect was
Tweet from @riversmccown: My overall takeaway was simply that the Ravens often understood enough about Houston's plays to know where the first read was and attack it.

On purely the process of the plays, they looked like the team with an extra week to prepare. Read into that what you will.
There it is. The most damning aspect of this current loss. Preparation falls at the feet of the coach. Game theory, tendency, contingency, zero sum games, mathematical models ... where is the analytics department in the preparation totem? Situational playcalling? Its basically non existent with O'Brien and the maddening thing is he "learned" from the best situational coach that has ever existed in the Belichek, and NOTHING was retained. Here's a good read for those of you not pumping narratives and actually want to wrap your head around this problem in a more lateral way VS the constant drivel of trolls and the uninitiated fans who dont understand the intricacies involved in the game.


“Again, we have our guidelines that we try to follow. I always try to alert the coaches as to what I’m going to do so that they don’t get surprised or get caught off-guard. We’ve seen some of those situations before between the quarterback and the offensive coordinator and the head coach. Maybe not everybody understood exactly what they’re trying to do. We try to definitely avoid that at all costs. Even if it doesn’t work or we don’t do it right at least we all know what we’re trying to do and there’s not a miscommunication there, but that’s not the easiest thing in the world either because those situations can change in a hurry. It can go from third-and-10 to fourth-and-one in a matter of seconds and now you’re in a whole different ballgame, especially if the quarterback or the offensive coordinator isn’t expecting to go for it and then all of a sudden is, that kind of thing.....
 


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