I'm joining your club and going forward, I'm not providing any links either. Where can I pickup my "no facts, no links" cap and sticker?
Facts are what they are.
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State of the O-line
- Thread starter jradMIT
- Start date
Facts are what they are.
I might be mistaken, but I'm not reading this as once the play was called, he could not change it.
I'm reading it as once the WR went in motion, he could not change it. I don't recall the game situation and don't know if Schaub waits until the WR sets and then tries to change the play, if it would have been a delay of game.
Regardless, this play illustrates how much control the ZBS HC or OC has on the play call and why QBs claim it's a QB friendly system.
badboy
Hall of Fame
NFLparaphanalia.comI'm joining your club and going forward, I'm not providing any links either. Where can I pickup my "no facts, no links" cap and sticker?
Thanks for the tip. I was going to look for it on either rickyisgone.com, notmyqb.com or nobabymamas.com.
banned1976
sleeper mode
Also look at doublestandard.com and whyamibeingsingledout.org.
badboy
Hall of Fame
the second one
That's a David Carr site IIRC
You're still on this? Okay, I'll play.
Osweiler probably had more first quarter scoring drives than McCarron and Watson combined. What conclusion do you draw from that? Osweiler was a better game plan QB than MCCarron and Watson combined?
Since we are playing the useless facts game. Here is one for you. The giant squid has the largest eyes in the world. Maybe a giant squid should play QB for the Texans. With those eyes, he definitely would see an incoming blitz better than Watson.
Sorry you're going to be feeling this way for the next 5 yrs.
On a serious note. I was thinking about the first quarter scoring drought. I have no doubt that it will be fixed this upcoming season. Whether you think it's good or bad, during the offseason, O'Brien tends to address scheme related issues in the offseason. I wish he would get better at addressing some of these issues during the bye week, but better late than never.
Question -
Assuming things stay static - offense remains mediocre , team results the same never passing the divisional round - at what point do we stop blaming OB , the OL and the water boy ?
Well, I guess it depends on what we see during the games. There were games this past season where the play calling was questionable at best. There were games where DW didn’t play well. There were games where the pass blocking was poor, particularly when Clark was inserted at RT. I think most of the discerning fans can determine what’s going on during games. We all have certain biases. I defend the QB a bit because I played QB in HS so I have some appreciation for how hard the position is to play. I defend OB at times because I’ve coached at the collegiate level (different sport but coaching is coaching) so I have an appreciation for how tough coaching can be.
Having said that, OB is the guy in charge of the whole thing now. If we see the same issues/problems then I’d place the lion’s share at his feet because he’s the unquestioned boss. His job is to hire the right coaches, find the right players and make sure that everything is running smoothly
Im also hopeful the game plans themselves improve. You could have Joe Montana at QB and if the game plan/play calling suck you’ll have a poor result. Re watch the Tampa game from this past season and watch how many up the middle runs we had against one of the best run defenses in the NFL
Bucs' 2019 Run Defense Among Best of All Time
Data Crunch: Tampa Bay finished the season allowing just 73.8 rushing yards per game, the lowest total by any team in nearly a decade and one of the stingiest marks in NFL history
www.buccaneers.com
badboy
Hall of Fame
For some reason I was thinking low scoring in first quarter began before last season and if it did, that nullifies the addressing issues in off season.
dream_team
Hall of Fame
If the team isn't successful (whatever your definition of "successful" is), fans will always look to blame someone or something. And it's alot easier to blame those at the top, than the ones on the bottom. That's the case for about everything in life.
Im also hopeful the game plans themselves improve. You could have Joe Montana at QB and if the game plan/play calling suck you’ll have a poor result. Re watch the Tampa game from this past season and watch how many up the middle runs we had against one of the best run defenses in the NFL
Bucs' 2019 Run Defense Among Best of All Time
Data Crunch: Tampa Bay finished the season allowing just 73.8 rushing yards per game, the lowest total by any team in nearly a decade and one of the stingiest marks in NFL history
Agree. The game plan for the Bucs was odd. I didn't understand what they were trying to accomplish offensively. It was a game where Stills was targeted (9) as many times as Hopkins, but once they couldn't run the ball, they rarely threw passes over 10 yards.
At one point, I recall Watson limping and don't know if that impacted the ability to plant his foot or the defense just giving him fits. But if felt like once they couldn't run the ball, they had no idea how to attack the defense. Check out Hopkins' routes that game. He only had 5 catches for 23 yards. Compare it to the other games.
https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/charts/player/deandre-hopkins/HOP161500/2019
Number19
Hall of Fame
We won that game.Im also hopeful the game plans themselves improve. You could have Joe Montana at QB and if the game plan/play calling suck you’ll have a poor result. Re watch the Tampa game from this past season and watch how many up the middle runs we had against one of the best run defenses in the NFL
Bucs' 2019 Run Defense Among Best of All Time
Data Crunch: Tampa Bay finished the season allowing just 73.8 rushing yards per game, the lowest total by any team in nearly a decade and one of the stingiest marks in NFL history
I've been preaching this since 2010.
It's not about being easier to blame. It's almost a 2 decade track record.
With DW4 playing like crap. BoB shortened the game and the defense came through at the end.
& this is why they spend the week reviewing game film. To understand why each player did what they did. Why each player expected the other to do & how that contributes to, or simply does not fit into the concept.
Three years in (next season) should be better communicating what he is seeing & expecting so that all 11 guys are on the same page.
Watson, isn't always right, but the goal is for everyone to see the field through his eyes.
Texansballer74
The Marine
Indeed unfortunately we will have three new players learning to see what Watson is seeing. And with this COVID-19 crap it’s a strong chance they won’t have OTS and TC. Plus they’re in talks about cutting pre season games.
dream_team
Hall of Fame
Which is difficult to do if you're constantly changing the pieces.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
badboy
Hall of Fame
And reducing number of players taken to camp if they have a camp.
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
As I understand, they are contemplating using the first 2 weeks of TC like an OTA period...........then having only 2 preseason games. But things are changing so quickly, who knows. No matter what, this group of NFL players are unlikely to have enough time to truly test any players other than expected 1st and 2nd teams (others, especially the UDFAs, will have little time to make an impression to make the team). Nor will there be enough time to really learn the offensive and defensive schemes and timing involved..........or gel as groups..........or even get into decent football shape.
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badboy
Hall of Fame
I'm good with nothing but regular season and that can be pushed back at least 4 weeks. Teams like Miami and Bengals have lots of new guys but that is on them to be in that spot. We should use every day before starting then play ball without whining or excuses.
We did indeed, but its irrelevant to the point I was trying to make. I was referring to our “game plan” offense. Let me give you a quote from another article:
”The Bucs, transitioning to a new scheme under defensive coordinator Todd Bowles, own the NFL’s stingiest run defense, limiting opponents to only 68 yards per game. And they rank last against the pass, surrendering 304.5 yards.”
The Bucs defense is one of the NFL’s best, and worst
Teams barely try to run against Tampa Bay. That’s not all good news.
In his infinite wisdom, our HC/OC looks at the Bucs and decides to run the ball 26 times, mostly up the middle. I remember watching that game thinking “WTF are we doing”. DW didn’t play a great game, however when a defense stuffs the run and puts you in 2nd and long and 3rd and long situations it makes things more difficult on the QB. I’m not trying to make excuses, just pointing out the fact that even a crappy pass defense has a better chance when it knows a pass is coming.
Also, a huge factor in our win was Winston throwing 5 picks. It’s pretty tough to win when your QB is the opposing team‘s MVP
Texansballer74
The Marine
We did indeed, but its irrelevant to the point I was trying to make. I was referring to our “game plan” offense. Let me give you a quote from another article:
”The Bucs, transitioning to a new scheme under defensive coordinator Todd Bowles, own the NFL’s stingiest run defense, limiting opponents to only 68 yards per game. And they rank last against the pass, surrendering 304.5 yards.”
The Bucs defense is one of the NFL’s best, and worst
Teams barely try to run against Tampa Bay. That’s not all good news.www.tampabay.com
In his infinite wisdom, our HC/OC looks at the Bucs and decides to run the ball 26 times, mostly up the middle. I remember watching that game thinking “WTF are we doing”. DW didn’t play a great game, however when a defense stuffs the run and puts you in 2nd and long and 3rd and long situations it makes things more difficult on the QB. I’m not trying to make excuses, just pointing out the fact that even a crappy pass defense has a better chance when it knows a pass is coming.
Also, a huge factor in our win was Winston throwing 5 picks. It’s pretty tough to win when your QB is the opposing team‘s MVP
I didn’t understand the game plan against the Broncos either. And that was on both sides of the ball. The game against the Panthers were questionable as well.
There were plays to be made against the Panthers that didn't get made.
Not so much against the Broncos. I attribute that to a hangover after the big Pat's win. Until they can break this trend then they won't be true contenders and that's on BOB.
The Carolina game was the beginning of teams playing Watson like the Bills did in the playoff game - Keeping him between the two wide defenders and pushing the pocket.
If Jameis doesn't throw 4 picks .... with a QBR of 38.1.
The odd thing is they went 4-1 after the Carolina game. Then I thought it was something the Ravens did that other teams copied, but they went 4-2 after the Ravens game.
Then I thought if the Panthers and Ravens showed how to play Watson and the offense, why didn't the Patriots follow that blueprint?
Then I thought the Patriots were sandbagging for the playoffs and didn't follow the blueprint.
Then I thought their lose 1 win 2 strategy would take them to the AFC championship game.
Then I thought, thinking about the Texans gives me headaches.
I think its a question of talent and personnel.
Carolina , the Ravens and Bills all have a lot of talent in their front 4 .... The Patriots don't have that level of talent in the front 4-7..
Denver .... I don't know what to say.
Those other teams the Texans beat along the way don't have talent in the front 4 - 7 comparable to those three teams that were very successful in executing that plan.
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
This afternoon, it looks like the NFL has made their TC/Preseason official: https://www.texanstalk.com/threads/nfl-covid-19-protocol.115231/#post-3076506
I think it’s more of a function of Watson communicating what he sees & expects. The better he gets at communicating the better the offense will be executing.
Especially if we’re talking about veterans.
Denver did the same thing the Panthers did
Sure they did - they just didn't appear to be as talented as those other teams on either side of the ball.
Good point and with those strong front 4-7, 15 of the 44 regular season sacks were given up in the Panthers, Ravens and Broncos games. I also find it interesting that Fuller only had 23 yards against the Panthers and didn't play against the Ravens and Broncos.
KoolAid Sipper
AFCEVET
Being that this is the O-line thread, I think the the current group has enough mixture of individual talent. Let's see if they can take it to another level as a group especially the interior. The interior guys need to be smarter in how they execute. Barring injury, the OL is set so I'm not going to single out any one player anymore. Whenever the teams are able to practice, extra work needs to be put in on challenging this line against stunts and overloads. I keep looking for who sets the tone amongst them. Earlier you mentioned the effects of a talented DL front keeping containment while pushing the pocket from the middle, well that's a problem for any QB at any given time. As an OL, that should be an embarrassment if it happens consistently/frequently in a game.
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
Unless, the QB (any QB) habitually fails to quickly and effectively read and get rid of the ball in a timely fashion.......then all bets are off.
Good point. Here are the Ravens' defensive highlights of that game. You will see failures at every level from play calling to QB play to OL blocking to RB blocking to questionable WR routes.
- On certain sacks, Watson held the ball too long
- There were sacks, were the RBs were blocking and getting pushed right into the throwing lanes or right in front of Watson.
- There were sacks were the OL got physically whipped
- There were coverage sacks where the OL initially did their jobs, but the slow developing routes never developed.
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CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
Just a reminder..............per the new CBA, game-day rosters have been increased to 48, and one of the additions has to be an offensive lineman. That means we can have three backups who are active.
badboy
Hall of Fame
After 5 starters and barring trades, if 9 backups 1. Mancz cheap vet gone next year...please 2. Kelemete see 1. I've been cutting him for two years but O'Brien likes veterans 3. Iwuagwu high hopes for him 4.Roderick Johnson/Charlie Heck. I thought RJ would step up 2019 with revolving door but with Howard back and Fulton evidently not being traded I expect RJ gets final spot with Heck sent to PS. I would not be shocked to see Johnson cut.
If Warford signed color me ecstatic.
If Warford signed color me ecstatic.
Anybody else see the Broncos trading Royce Freeman for Kelemte during preseason. Denver needs depth on the OL and the Texans need depth at RB.
Texansballer74
The Marine
No we have Buddy Howell and Karan Higdon. There’s no need for us to bring in another back.
badboy
Hall of Fame
Don't think OBrien would but I would. He would also allow us to let go another lower end RB. We'd save almost two million cap in trading Kelemete. Here is some info:
NFL: Breaking News, Rumors & Highlights | Yardbarker
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www.yardbarker.com
and
Royce Freeman got more touches in his second year, but he still was RB2 behind Phillip Lindsay in 2019 just like he was in 2018. Lindsay (224) and Freeman (132) combined for all but one of the carries by a running back for the 2019 Broncos. Andy Janovich had that one carry. If you count Andrew Beck as a FB, then he had one carry as well.
Royce Freeman was a third round selection by the Broncos in 2018 (71st overall pick).
:no_upscale()/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/20077239/n1su2m5da4psx7uezvtf.jpg)
Freeman missed time during his rookie campaign because of an ankle injury and he appeared to never fully recover from that in 2018. He touched the ball 144 times in 2018 and 175 times in 2019. He was much more involved in the passing game in 2019 with 50 targets and 43 catches (compared to 20 and 14 in 2018). His yards per carry went from 4.0 in 2018 to 3.8 in 2019. The average carry in the NFL in 2019 was 4.3 yards. Meaning that Freeman was 0.5 yards below average.
The Good
Freeman is large running back. He is listed at 238 lbs, but he appears heavier than that to me. There are times when you need a massive running back to run over a defender and gain that extra half of a yard. During his career, Freeman has carried the ball 42 times in short yardage situations (needed 3 yards or less). He has gotten first downs (or touchdowns) on 25 of those carries (59.9%) - including 5 TDs. That sounds pretty good until you realize that the league average on short yardage runs was 64.8% over the past two seasons. So Freeman has been below average in short yardage situations (this includes goalline runs).
So how has he compared to Lindsay? Lindsay has converted on 66.1%. That is converting on 39 of 59 short yardage carries - ten of which went for touchdowns. But I guess there are times when Freeman, who weighs roughly 50 lbs more than Lindsay would be useful as a ball carrier.
Freeman was much better in the passing game than Lindsay. Not only was he a better pass blocker than Lindsay (see my most recent sack blame article), but he was much more sure-handed (and to my eye, a better route runner). Freeman only dropped two passes in 2019 - on 50 targets. Lindsay dropped six passes on 48 targets.
The Bad
Royce Freeman has turned into a plodder with limited ability to break tackles or extend runs. His vision appears to have gotten worse and he has not shown much promise in terms of extending runs since his rookie season before his injury. Freeman had one carry of 20 or more yards in 2019. He had 13 carries that went for 10 or more yards. So 10% of his runs went for 10 or more yards, but only 0.8% of his carries went for 20 or more.
For comparison Lindsay had seven of 20 or more and 22 of 10 or more. Like Freeman, only 10% of Lindsay’s carries went for 10 or more, but 3.1% went for 20 or more. So in 2019 Lindsay had four times the frequency of 20+ yard carries that Freeman had. FWIW Melvin Gordon had 162 carries in 2019 and only two of his carries went for 20 or more yards (1.2%) while 14 went for 10 or more (8.6%). Gordon is not a good comparison because he was playing behind a different offensive line than Freeman and Gordon held out for part of the year in 2019. That being said, I would not assume that Gordon will be the short yardage back in 2020 just because he is bigger than Lindsay and shiftier than Freeman.
My opinion
Pat Shurmur generally does not split the carries between two running backs. He is more of an old school play caller in that he likes to give his main RB the lion’s share. He might change his approach with Lindsay and Gordon, but that leaves Royce Freeman out in the cold. If this were a normal year, I would expect Freeman to get showcased in the preseason to increase his trade value. Since there will be no preseason, I doubt Freeman has too much trade value and I would be elated if the Broncos were able to get a 4th or 5th round pick in exchange for him.
If we don’t trade him, I do not expect him to make the roster. He did not play special teams at all in either of his first two seasons, so he does not even have that going for him. There are currently six running backs on the Bronco’s roster. In his last stint as offensive coordinator, Shurmur kept anywhere from two to four running backs on the 53-man roster. It would not surprise me if Freeman is traded and Shurmur only keeps Gordon and Lindsay on the 55-man roster, but the roster math may be a little different this year with the pandemic. I do expect whoever is RB3 or RB4 to play special teams.
For a larger running back the Broncos also have Jeremy Cox, who the teamed signed to a reserve/futures contract at the end of 2019. Cox is listed at 6-0, 226 lbs.
Broncos roster review: Royce Freeman
Is there room for Royce Freeman in the backfield with Melvin Gordon and Phillip Lindsay?
www.milehighreport.com
IMO, these are the moves we should be making, low risk-low cost with large upside.
badboy
Hall of Fame
I understand but getting rid of kelemete and getting something in return is good progress.
Allow the RBs to fight it out in competition. Also Buddy Howell whom I like is different size and type player.
Texansballer74
The Marine
badboy
Hall of Fame
Okay but that wasn't the question. Barring a better deal, I would trade for the RB.
Texansballer74
The Marine
There’s no such thing as a better deal when it comes to career backs that aren’t that good.