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State of the O-line

badboy

Hall of Fame
I couldn't find the individual numbers for the O-line. Is it in the pay section? Just want to see the dropoff from Howard to the backup RTs post Howards injury. Because that had a dramatic effect on the line.
There were no back up right tackles only knock around dummies in uniforms.
 

thunderkyss

Just win baby!!!
Staff member
Contributor's Club
They advanced as far in BOB's 1st yr as GM/HC as they ever did in RS 12 yrs here.
Oh... "as far" I was questioning:
They got further year in the playoffs than they did in RS best year.
Which is different than "as far"

So I dont know why you like RS more than BOB as GM. Although I bet I can guess why you feel the way you do.
I don't think I've said much about BO'b the GM, especially not in relation to your boy Rick.

I've noted other coordinators have been able to build top ranked units with the players he drafted. Our issue was not having a HC to take this team to the next level. BO'b was supposed to fix that, but we're still getting embarrassed in the divisional round.

Well, if RS had drafted the damn QB's BOB had wanted the Texans wouldn't be in the position they're in today.
Hard to say. I've yet to see anything from BO'b to make me think he can get anything out of any player. He wanted that chicken & shrimp dude & put him on the bench all year long. He wanted Lamar Miller & doesn't run sweeps, tosses, or RB screens.

All I've seen is BO'b square peg the crap out of every position on the roster. & with the contracts he's been handing out lately & the trades he's made, I believe you are easily a better evaluator of talent & value.
 

OptimisticTexan

Hall of Fame
Perhaps Obrien sees Martin developing into a role such as Myers had. That and hope Martin and Watson also have a bond. That could be part of why Martin got contract that no one saw coming?
If OB wants this to happen, then a serious move to the ZBS would be needed. I think the current OL talent could take a massive leap if the team moved towards a ZBS and had a OL Coach who could actually coach the scheme.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
If OB wants this to happen, then a serious move to the ZBS would be needed. I think the current OL talent could take a massive leap if the team moved towards a ZBS and had a OL Coach who could actually coach the scheme.
I see now what posters problem is with BoB, he doesn't run the WCO or ZBS.
 

Earl34

Veteran
I believe the book has been written, but it takes playoff level defenses to execute the plan. DW4's going to have big games next yr against the Lions/Jags/Browns/Bengals defenses.

Not so much against the playoff teams defenses and particularly the Bears defenses.
I think your conclusion is a bit premature. Are you ignoring how he played against the Saints (13th), Patriots (1st), Titans (12th), and Chiefs (7th) playoff defenses? Yes, he struggled against the Ravens (3rd) defense, but do you even consider Fuller being out, the OL play (6 sacks), and going against a very good defense? If Colvin doesn't blow that coverage against the Saints, the Texans could have gone 4-1 against playoff teams when Watson started.

I think this is another case where we have to evaluate more than just the QB. I look forward to @Corrosion's first read review.
To my point. I came across this stat in one of @Uncle Rico's post that makes my point against playoff defenses.

 

Earl34

Veteran
Yeah I guess it’s not the stupid trades, or the lack of awareness on the field, the 51-7 in the playoffs, or being blown out at home during our playoff opener.

Yep, it’s the lack of zbs is why we hate him.

:hankpalm:
Oh. Oh. Raising a virtual hand in the air. Can I play?

Or his clock management or the lack of combination routes in his offense or his boring shotgun runs or his unimaginative offense or his inability to establish an identity on offense or the WTH decisions on 4th down.
 

Texansballer74

Hall of Fame
Oh. Oh. Raising a virtual hand in the air. Can I play?

Or his clock management or the lack of combination routes in his offense or his boring shotgun runs or his unimaginative offense or his inability to establish an identity on offense or the WTH decisions on 4th down.
I want to play coach. Lol

What about the lethargic start to every single game.
 

OptimisticTexan

Hall of Fame
I see now what posters problem is with BoB, he doesn't run the WCO or ZBS.
Never was a Kubiak fan either. Love any blocking scheme that’s effective as long as it allows the offense to be explosive.

Like every great team, the pieces of the puzzle have to come together at the right time.

The Texans have the puzzle pieces in theory but they are loaded with health and bounce back what-ifs.

If everyone stays healthy and those requiring a bounce back season have them.....the Texans would then have all the components to be one of the very best, if not the best in the NFL. That only happens if Kelly has an amazing connection with Watson and the offense...and OB keeps his face out of the OC duties.
 

thunderkyss

Just win baby!!!
Staff member
Contributor's Club
I want to play coach. Lol

What about the lethargic start to every single game.
:thinking:


How about how he scraps his whole offseason plan by halftime week 1. That's been the most impressive thing about BO'b to me.

All the other coaches start preparing in June, he starts early September & still ends up in the top 12.

Sure, the AFC South isn't as competitive as the East, but imagine if he would start planning & scheming in May.
 

CloakNNNdagger

Hall of Fame
This is what I want to see as well and one of my chief frustrations with OB as a play caller. Once you have an idea of what a defense wants to do you should have a counter punch so to speak. To my eye, I didn’t always see that week to week
I see your train of thought. However, it is much more difficult to consistently and effectively plan a counter punch from week to week if the QB's tendency is to run off script just as consistently.
 

Corrosion

Idealist
Staff member
I see your train of thought. However, it is much more difficult to consistently and effectively plan a counter punch from week to week if the QB's tendency is to run off script just as consistently.

So script him out of the pocket - take advantage of his ability and put additional pressure on the DB's to commit to one or the other. They can't cover and stop a QB from scrambling - Easy Yards.
 

CloakNNNdagger

Hall of Fame
So script him out of the pocket - take advantage of his ability and put additional pressure on the DB's to commit to one or the other. They can't cover and stop a QB from scrambling - Easy Yards.
That approach requires at very least requires disclpline to stick to the plan. It still takes for granted that he will stick to even that script and not continue to try to extend plays and markedly ad lib. If this becomes a staple plan, defenses will assign a spy to react right off the snap to neutralize its effectiveness.
 

Earl34

Veteran
I see your train of thought. However, it is much more difficult to consistently and effectively plan a counter punch from week to week if the QB's tendency is to run off script just as consistently.
This line of thinking feels like an excuse for not having an identity on offense or minimizes the coaches' impact on the game plan and how the QB plays. QBs like Wilson, Mahomes, Rodgers, and Roethlisberger are all consistently going off script. For example, before Todd Haley became the Steelers OC, Roethlisberger was notorious for holding the ball, they changed the passing game to get the ball out of his hands and drilled it into him that getting rid of the ball will reduce the hits and prolong his career.

My point is other teams are able to balance their QB's tendencies to go off script and their ability to develop effective game plans. We cannot just throw our hands in the air and claim Watson is going off script, ruining the weekly game plans and there's nothing the HC or OC can do about it.

I still believe some of the weekly inconsistencies we see (e.g., OL blocking, WRs running wrong routes, QB holding the ball) can be attributed to this offense not having an identity and this game plan offense that appears to be more reactive than proactive when it comes to attacking a defense.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
Yeah I guess it’s not the stupid trades, or the lack of awareness on the field, the 51-7 in the playoffs, or being blown out at home during our playoff opener.

Yep, it’s the lack of zbs is why we hate him.

:hankpalm:
And he's still taken the Texans as far as any HC in their history.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
This line of thinking feels like an excuse for not having an identity on offense or minimizes the coaches' impact on the game plan and how the QB plays. QBs like Wilson, Mahomes, Rodgers, and Roethlisberger are all consistently going off script. For example, before Todd Haley became the Steelers OC, Roethlisberger was notorious for holding the ball, they changed the passing game to get the ball out of his hands and drilled it into him that getting rid of the ball will reduce the hits and prolong his career.

My point is other teams are able to balance their QB's tendencies to go off script and their ability to develop effective game plans. We cannot just throw our hands in the air and claim Watson is going off script, ruining the weekly game plans and there's nothing the HC or OC can do about it.

I still believe some of the weekly inconsistencies we see (e.g., OL blocking, WRs running wrong routes, QB holding the ball) can be attributed to this offense not having an identity and this game plan offense that appears to be more reactive than proactive when it comes to attacking a defense.
Why is it certain HC's/QB's seem to be able to handle weekly gameplans and others cant?
 

banned1976

Fire Bill O’Brien, maybe?
This line of thinking feels like an excuse for not having an identity on offense or minimizes the coaches' impact on the game plan and how the QB plays. QBs like Wilson, Mahomes, Rodgers, and Roethlisberger are all consistently going off script. For example, before Todd Haley became the Steelers OC, Roethlisberger was notorious for holding the ball, they changed the passing game to get the ball out of his hands and drilled it into him that getting rid of the ball will reduce the hits and prolong his career.

My point is other teams are able to balance their QB's tendencies to go off script and their ability to develop effective game plans. We cannot just throw our hands in the air and claim Watson is going off script, ruining the weekly game plans and there's nothing the HC or OC can do about it.

I still believe some of the weekly inconsistencies we see (e.g., OL blocking, WRs running wrong routes, QB holding the ball) can be attributed to this offense not having an identity and this game plan offense that appears to be more reactive than proactive when it comes to attacking a defense.
Under O’Brien, too often does the entire offense appear out of sync. I don’t know how that happens unless it’s true that O’Brien changes a lot of things on offense last minute.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
Under O’Brien, too often does the entire offense appear out of sync. I don’t know how that happens unless it’s true that O’Brien changes a lot of things on offense last minute.
BOB is out of sync but God of the Texans is always there to pull BOB's butt out of the fire. Is this the narrative around here?
 

Earl34

Veteran
Under O’Brien, too often does the entire offense appear out of sync. I don’t know how that happens unless it’s true that O’Brien changes a lot of things on offense last minute.
This has been going on regardless of the QB. Whenever I hear about the offense being out of sync, before blaming one player or position group, I reference the conversation between Cecil Shorts and Wade Smith.
  • They mentioned that due to the game plan offensive approach, on a weekly basis, too many players get inconsistent roles in the weekly game plans.
  • They mentioned without an identity, the offense is always probing the defense before identifying their plan of attack. Could this be the reason for the slow starts? Holding the ball?
  • If the top WRs are limited during practice, the QB is practicing with the backup WRs, the game starts and timing is off between the WRs and QB. Again, holding the ball?
  • If the game plan is always changing, plays that haven't been practiced since training camp can be in a November game plan. Again with limited practices, is the timing off?
Just think. For years, the Colts had one of the more explosive offenses in the NFL. Shoot, their WRs did not even switch sides. Marvin Harrison rarely ran patterns from the left, he was always on the right side of the formation. They simply ran the same plays from multiple formations. Being on the same page and executing the plays regardless of the defensive formations was the foundation of their offense. I don't see the value in O'Brien's game plan, offensive approach. I think he has over complicated things to the point that it gets young players in the dog house and leads to the inconsistent play we see on the field.

So, before I think about a QB going off script, I want to look at the script. Why does the script lead to Coutee being inactive? If the QB is holding the ball, is the script flexible enough to call for more 3 step drops this series or quarter to get the ball out of the QB's hands? Does the script adjust and have defined routes for the WRs that are struggling with timing or even the game plan? Why did the script have plays that a known, poor blocker like Ryan Griffin was coming across the formation to pickup a blitzing LB?

Inquiring minds want to know.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
This has been going on regardless of the QB. Whenever I hear about the offense being out of sync, before blaming one player or position group, I reference the conversation between Cecil Shorts and Wade Smith.
  • They mentioned that due to the game plan offensive approach, on a weekly basis, too many players get inconsistent roles in the weekly game plans.
  • They mentioned without an identity, the offense is always probing the defense before identifying their plan of attack. Could this be the reason for the slow starts? Holding the ball?
  • If the top WRs are limited during practice, the QB is practicing with the backup WRs, the game starts and timing is off between the WRs and QB. Again, holding the ball?
  • If the game plan is always changing, plays that haven't been practiced since training camp can be in a November game plan. Again with limited practices, is the timing off?
Just think. For years, the Colts had one of the more explosive offenses in the NFL. Shoot, their WRs did not even switch sides. Marvin Harrison rarely ran patterns from the left, he was always on the right side of the formation. They simply ran the same plays from multiple formations. Being on the same page and executing the plays regardless of the defensive formations was the foundation of their offense. I don't see the value in O'Brien's game plan, offensive approach. I think he has over complicated things to the point that it gets young players in the dog house and leads to the inconsistent play we see on the field.

So, before I think about a QB going off script, I want to look at the script. Why does the script lead to Coutee being inactive? If the QB is holding the ball, is the script flexible enough to call for more 3 step drops this series or quarter to get the ball out of the QB's hands? Does the script adjust and have defined routes for the WRs that are struggling with timing or even the game plan? Why did the script have plays that a known, poor blocker like Ryan Griffin was coming across the formation to pickup a blitzing LB?

Inquiring minds want to know.
Some QB's can run the gameplan offense some cant.

Atleast we wont have to worry about WR's missing practice this yr so the chemistry should be better.
 

Texansballer74

Hall of Fame
People tend to over analyze ones statements. Nobody on here said Watson isn’t at fault or doesn’t need to improve in some areas. But goodness why are those select few hell bent on trying to find ways to prove he’s not a good quarterback. He has his flaws and so does Bill O’Brien. So please stop trying to paint certain members in a freaking corner.
 

Texansballer74

Hall of Fame
This has been going on regardless of the QB. Whenever I hear about the offense being out of sync, before blaming one player or position group, I reference the conversation between Cecil Shorts and Wade Smith.
  • They mentioned that due to the game plan offensive approach, on a weekly basis, too many players get inconsistent roles in the weekly game plans.
  • They mentioned without an identity, the offense is always probing the defense before identifying their plan of attack. Could this be the reason for the slow starts? Holding the ball?
  • If the top WRs are limited during practice, the QB is practicing with the backup WRs, the game starts and timing is off between the WRs and QB. Again, holding the ball?
  • If the game plan is always changing, plays that haven't been practiced since training camp can be in a November game plan. Again with limited practices, is the timing off?
Just think. For years, the Colts had one of the more explosive offenses in the NFL. Shoot, their WRs did not even switch sides. Marvin Harrison rarely ran patterns from the left, he was always on the right side of the formation. They simply ran the same plays from multiple formations. Being on the same page and executing the plays regardless of the defensive formations was the foundation of their offense. I don't see the value in O'Brien's game plan, offensive approach. I think he has over complicated things to the point that it gets young players in the dog house and leads to the inconsistent play we see on the field.

So, before I think about a QB going off script, I want to look at the script. Why does the script lead to Coutee being inactive? If the QB is holding the ball, is the script flexible enough to call for more 3 step drops this series or quarter to get the ball out of the QB's hands? Does the script adjust and have defined routes for the WRs that are struggling with timing or even the game plan? Why did the script have plays that a known, poor blocker like Ryan Griffin was coming across the formation to pickup a blitzing LB?

Inquiring minds want to know.
Good stuff as usual Earl. These things are very difficult to know unless you’re actually on the inside.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
People tend to over analyze ones statements. Nobody on here said Watson isn’t at fault or doesn’t need to improve in some areas. But goodness why are those select few hell bent on trying to find ways to prove he’s not a good quarterback. He has his flaws and so does Bill O’Brien. So please stop trying to paint certain members in a freaking corner.
Nobody on here said DW4's a bad QB.

He's just not the God that some on here make him out o be. In fact in his first 4 yrs he's accomplished very little.
 

Corrosion

Idealist
Staff member
Nobody on here said DW4's a bad QB.

He's just not the God that some on here make him out o be. In fact in his first 4 yrs he's accomplished very little.

Eh , statistically he's been pretty good .... thrown for a bunch of yards , TD's and had a solid completion percentage.

Its the bottom line where he and the team have come up short.

You just have to put some more talent around him .... Problem is , OB is going backwards in that aspect. This team is much less talented than the one he took over in year one - Aside from the QB position.
Its also much worse off in terms of cap space and draft capital so getting better going forward is going to be exceedingly difficult.

Then again , I think there's going to be a major redistribution of talent next offseason because of a contracting cap .... If they don't screw up their cap situation today , they may be able to take advantage of that in 21 and beyond.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
Eh , statistically he's been pretty good .... thrown for a bunch of yards , TD's and had a solid completion percentage.

Its the bottom line where he and the team have come up short.

You just have to put some more talent around him .... Problem is , OB is going backwards in that aspect. This team is much less talented than the one he took over in year one - Aside from the QB position.
Its also much worse off in terms of cap space and draft capital so getting better going forward is going to be exceedingly difficult.

Then again , I think there's going to be a major redistribution of talent next offseason because of a contracting cap .... If they don't screw up their cap situation today , they may be able to take advantage of that in 21 and beyond.
I like that BOB reinvested in the OL and like the additions to the WR crew. There should be no excuses for DW4 next yr. Although I'm sure there will be many from a certain group of posters here.
 
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thunderkyss

Just win baby!!!
Staff member
Contributor's Club
I'm a WCO & ZBS fan because it doesn't require high-end talent to execute. When I see the 49ers... I don't see a lot of talent on offense, but they are very effective at moving the ball. Guys appear to always be open and there's always lanes for RBs to run through.
just moving sideline to sideline negates those high dollar edge rushers.
 

Earl34

Veteran
Shorts and Wade Smith are on the inside?
Seeing that Shorts played in O'Brien's offense, had 42 catches and 482 yards. He is closer to knowing about O'Brien's offense than any poster on an internet forum. Also, Shorts has always complimented O'Brien. He says O'Brien coaching staff will get you prepared.
 
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Texansballer74

Hall of Fame
I like that BOB reinvested in the OL and like the additions to the WR crew. There should be no excuses for DW4 next yr. Although I'm sure there will be many from a certain group of posters here.
Don’t you mean there’s no more excuses for Bill O’Brien. He’s been here longer right and since you believe he’s reinvested in the oline and receiver. His philosophical offense should be top 5 or better. Watson shouldn’t feel any heat since the offensive line should be the best in the NFL.
 

OptimisticTexan

Hall of Fame
I like that BOB reinvested in the OL and like the additions to the WR crew. There should be no excuses for DW4 next yr. Although I'm sure there will be many from a certain group of posters here.
You might've concluded that statement with.....there should be no excuses for the OL and WR's next year. Watson doesn't always have to play into every side negative comment.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
You might've concluded that statement with.....there should be no excuses for the OL and WR's next year. Watson doesn't always have to play into every side negative comment.
It's not a negative side comment. The pieces are in place and if they stay healthy there's no more excuses.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
Don’t you mean there’s no more excuses for Bill O’Brien. He’s been here longer right and since you believe he’s reinvested in the oline and receiver. His philosophical offense should be top 5 or better. Watson shouldn’t feel any heat since the offensive line should be the best in the NFL.
The offense will be as good as DW4 is. Just like the QB on every other team. I expect the OL to be top 10 if healthy.
 

edo783

Hall of Fame
One of the problems that have occurred in previous seasons is OB coming in on Friday and changing the offenses game plan. If he leaves Kelly's plans alone and let's Kelly call the game, maybe, just maybe we will have a solid offense. That's assuming Kelly's any good. DW4 has to pick up his game and get rid of the dang ball. If it goes like I think it might, could be an interesting year.
 

KarlK

Waterboy
If you go back and read joker I said you have to look at the entire darn picture. And when you do that, our offensive line was not good period. Especially in pass pro. Like I said stop cherry picking skit in a attempt to crap on Watson. The eye test will tell you how bad that line was.
Why don't you explain to all of us what the "entire darn picture" is then "joker"? Since you are so much more enlightened than everyone else.

While your at it, explain how a ranking that takes into account literally every play from scrimmage the entire season, is "cherry picking"? I suspect you don't even know what phrase "cherry picking" even means.

Come back with something tangible to support your point. Nobody cares about your eye test, homer.
 

Earl34

Veteran
Why is it certain HC's/QB's seem to be able to handle weekly gameplans and others cant?
This is another example of you taking something out of context. I hate to break it to you, but every team from college to the NFL are running weekly game plan offenses.

It‘s how you teach, implement and adjust the weekly game plan based on the opponent and the talent at your disposal that separates great coaches from mediocre.
 
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