Wish to make a one time donation? Make it here.

State of the O-line

Earl34

Veteran
Unless it was in a hurry up offense, the only two allowed called/audibled plays allowed by Kubiak were essentially "pass" or "run." And of course, once the play was called, he could not change it.
I might be mistaken, but I'm not reading this as once the play was called, he could not change it.

I'm reading it as once the WR went in motion, he could not change it. I don't recall the game situation and don't know if Schaub waits until the WR sets and then tries to change the play, if it would have been a delay of game.

Regardless, this play illustrates how much control the ZBS HC or OC has on the play call and why QBs claim it's a QB friendly system.
 

Earl34

Veteran
Facts are what they are.
You're still on this? Okay, I'll play.

Osweiler probably had more first quarter scoring drives than McCarron and Watson combined. What conclusion do you draw from that? Osweiler was a better game plan QB than MCCarron and Watson combined?

Since we are playing the useless facts game. Here is one for you. The giant squid has the largest eyes in the world. Maybe a giant squid should play QB for the Texans. With those eyes, he definitely would see an incoming blitz better than Watson.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
You're still on this? Okay, I'll play.

Osweiler probably had more first quarter scoring drives than McCarron and Watson combined. What conclusion do you draw from that? Osweiler was a better game plan QB than MCCarron and Watson combined?

Since we are playing the useless facts game. Here is one for you. The giant squid has the largest eyes in the world. Maybe a giant squid should play QB for the Texans. With those eyes, he definitely would see an incoming blitz better than Watson.
Sorry you're going to be feeling this way for the next 5 yrs.
 

Earl34

Veteran
Sorry you're going to be feeling this way for the next 5 yrs.
On a serious note. I was thinking about the first quarter scoring drought. I have no doubt that it will be fixed this upcoming season. Whether you think it's good or bad, during the offseason, O'Brien tends to address scheme related issues in the offseason. I wish he would get better at addressing some of these issues during the bye week, but better late than never.
 

Corrosion

Idealist
Staff member
On a serious note. I was thinking about the first quarter scoring drought. I have no doubt that it will be fixed this upcoming season. Whether you think it's good or bad, during the offseason, O'Brien tends to address scheme related issues in the offseason. I wish he would get better at addressing some of these issues during the bye week, but better late than never.

Question -

Assuming things stay static - offense remains mediocre , team results the same never passing the divisional round - at what point do we stop blaming OB , the OL and the water boy ?
 

otisbean

Veteran
Contributor's Club
Question -

Assuming things stay static - offense remains mediocre , team results the same never passing the divisional round - at what point do we stop blaming OB , the OL and the water boy ?
Well, I guess it depends on what we see during the games. There were games this past season where the play calling was questionable at best. There were games where DW didn’t play well. There were games where the pass blocking was poor, particularly when Clark was inserted at RT. I think most of the discerning fans can determine what’s going on during games. We all have certain biases. I defend the QB a bit because I played QB in HS so I have some appreciation for how hard the position is to play. I defend OB at times because I’ve coached at the collegiate level (different sport but coaching is coaching) so I have an appreciation for how tough coaching can be.

Having said that, OB is the guy in charge of the whole thing now. If we see the same issues/problems then I’d place the lion’s share at his feet because he’s the unquestioned boss. His job is to hire the right coaches, find the right players and make sure that everything is running smoothly
 

otisbean

Veteran
Contributor's Club
I've said many times some guys are capable of running a game plan offense, some can't. It is a square peg/ round hole situation.

I'm with you in hoping TK can alleviate these issues.
Im also hopeful the game plans themselves improve. You could have Joe Montana at QB and if the game plan/play calling suck you’ll have a poor result. Re watch the Tampa game from this past season and watch how many up the middle runs we had against one of the best run defenses in the NFL

 

badboy

Hall of Fame
On a serious note. I was thinking about the first quarter scoring drought. I have no doubt that it will be fixed this upcoming season. Whether you think it's good or bad, during the offseason, O'Brien tends to address scheme related issues in the offseason. I wish he would get better at addressing some of these issues during the bye week, but better late than never.
For some reason I was thinking low scoring in first quarter began before last season and if it did, that nullifies the addressing issues in off season.
 

dream_team

Hall of Fame
Question -

Assuming things stay static - offense remains mediocre , team results the same never passing the divisional round - at what point do we stop blaming OB , the OL and the water boy ?
If the team isn't successful (whatever your definition of "successful" is), fans will always look to blame someone or something. And it's alot easier to blame those at the top, than the ones on the bottom. That's the case for about everything in life.
 

Earl34

Veteran
Im also hopeful the game plans themselves improve. You could have Joe Montana at QB and if the game plan/play calling suck you’ll have a poor result. Re watch the Tampa game from this past season and watch how many up the middle runs we had against one of the best run defenses in the NFL

Agree. The game plan for the Bucs was odd. I didn't understand what they were trying to accomplish offensively. It was a game where Stills was targeted (9) as many times as Hopkins, but once they couldn't run the ball, they rarely threw passes over 10 yards.

At one point, I recall Watson limping and don't know if that impacted the ability to plant his foot or the defense just giving him fits. But if felt like once they couldn't run the ball, they had no idea how to attack the defense. Check out Hopkins' routes that game. He only had 5 catches for 23 yards. Compare it to the other games.

https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/charts/player/deandre-hopkins/HOP161500/2019

1593549996418.png
 

Number19

Hall of Fame
Im also hopeful the game plans themselves improve. You could have Joe Montana at QB and if the game plan/play calling suck you’ll have a poor result. Re watch the Tampa game from this past season and watch how many up the middle runs we had against one of the best run defenses in the NFL

We won that game.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
If the team isn't successful (whatever your definition of "successful" is), fans will always look to blame someone or something. And it's alot easier to blame those at the top, than the ones on the bottom. That's the case for about everything in life.
It's not about being easier to blame. It's almost a 2 decade track record.
 

thunderkyss

Just win baby!!!
Staff member
Contributor's Club
Now in O'Brien's offense, the slant is still the correct answer, but based on Coutee's read or understanding, he runs a hook?
& this is why they spend the week reviewing game film. To understand why each player did what they did. Why each player expected the other to do & how that contributes to, or simply does not fit into the concept.

Three years in (next season) should be better communicating what he is seeing & expecting so that all 11 guys are on the same page.

Watson, isn't always right, but the goal is for everyone to see the field through his eyes.
 

Texansballer74

Hall of Fame
& this is why they spend the week reviewing game film. To understand why each player did what they did. Why each player expected the other to do & how that contributes to, or simply does not fit into the concept.

Three years in (next season) should be better communicating what he is seeing & expecting so that all 11 guys are on the same page.

Watson, isn't always right, but the goal is for everyone to see the field through his eyes.
Indeed unfortunately we will have three new players learning to see what Watson is seeing. And with this COVID-19 crap it’s a strong chance they won’t have OTS and TC. Plus they’re in talks about cutting pre season games.
 

dream_team

Hall of Fame
& this is why they spend the week reviewing game film. To understand why each player did what they did. Why each player expected the other to do & how that contributes to, or simply does not fit into the concept.

Three years in (next season) should be better communicating what he is seeing & expecting so that all 11 guys are on the same page.

Watson, isn't always right, but the goal is for everyone to see the field through his eyes.
Which is difficult to do if you're constantly changing the pieces.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

CloakNNNdagger

Hall of Fame
Indeed unfortunately we will have three new players learning to see what Watson is seeing. And with this COVID-19 crap it’s a strong chance they won’t have OTS and TC. Plus they’re in talks about cutting pre season games.
As I understand, they are contemplating using the first 2 weeks of TC like an OTA period...........then having only 2 preseason games. But things are changing so quickly, who knows. No matter what, this group of NFL players are unlikely to have enough time to truly test any players other than expected 1st and 2nd teams (others, especially the UDFAs, will have little time to make an impression to make the team). Nor will there be enough time to really learn the offensive and defensive schemes and timing involved..........or gel as groups..........or even get into decent football shape.
 
Last edited:

badboy

Hall of Fame
As I understand, they are contemplating using the first 2 weeks of TC like an OTA period...........then having only 2 preseason games. But things are changing so quickly, who knows. No matter what, this group of NFL players are unlikely to have enough time truly test other than expected 1st and 2nd teams (others, especially the UDFAs, will have little time to make an impression to make the team). Nor will there be enough time to really learn the offensive and defensive schemes and timing involved..........or gel as groups..........or even get into decent football shape.
I'm good with nothing but regular season and that can be pushed back at least 4 weeks. Teams like Miami and Bengals have lots of new guys but that is on them to be in that spot. We should use every day before starting then play ball without whining or excuses.
 

otisbean

Veteran
Contributor's Club
We won that game.
We did indeed, but its irrelevant to the point I was trying to make. I was referring to our “game plan” offense. Let me give you a quote from another article:

”The Bucs, transitioning to a new scheme under defensive coordinator Todd Bowles, own the NFL’s stingiest run defense, limiting opponents to only 68 yards per game. And they rank last against the pass, surrendering 304.5 yards.”


In his infinite wisdom, our HC/OC looks at the Bucs and decides to run the ball 26 times, mostly up the middle. I remember watching that game thinking “WTF are we doing”. DW didn’t play a great game, however when a defense stuffs the run and puts you in 2nd and long and 3rd and long situations it makes things more difficult on the QB. I’m not trying to make excuses, just pointing out the fact that even a crappy pass defense has a better chance when it knows a pass is coming.

Also, a huge factor in our win was Winston throwing 5 picks. It’s pretty tough to win when your QB is the opposing team‘s MVP
 

Texansballer74

Hall of Fame
We did indeed, but its irrelevant to the point I was trying to make. I was referring to our “game plan” offense. Let me give you a quote from another article:

”The Bucs, transitioning to a new scheme under defensive coordinator Todd Bowles, own the NFL’s stingiest run defense, limiting opponents to only 68 yards per game. And they rank last against the pass, surrendering 304.5 yards.”


In his infinite wisdom, our HC/OC looks at the Bucs and decides to run the ball 26 times, mostly up the middle. I remember watching that game thinking “WTF are we doing”. DW didn’t play a great game, however when a defense stuffs the run and puts you in 2nd and long and 3rd and long situations it makes things more difficult on the QB. I’m not trying to make excuses, just pointing out the fact that even a crappy pass defense has a better chance when it knows a pass is coming.

Also, a huge factor in our win was Winston throwing 5 picks. It’s pretty tough to win when your QB is the opposing team‘s MVP
I didn’t understand the game plan against the Broncos either. And that was on both sides of the ball. The game against the Panthers were questionable as well.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
I didn’t understand the game plan against the Broncos either. And that was on both sides of the ball. The game against the Panthers were questionable as well.
There were plays to be made against the Panthers that didn't get made.

Not so much against the Broncos. I attribute that to a hangover after the big Pat's win. Until they can break this trend then they won't be true contenders and that's on BOB.
 

Corrosion

Idealist
Staff member
I didn’t understand the game plan against the Broncos either. And that was on both sides of the ball. The game against the Panthers were questionable as well.
The Carolina game was the beginning of teams playing Watson like the Bills did in the playoff game - Keeping him between the two wide defenders and pushing the pocket.

If Jameis doesn't throw 4 picks .... with a QBR of 38.1.
 

Earl34

Veteran
The Carolina game was the beginning of teams playing Watson like the Bills did in the playoff game - Keeping him between the two wide defenders and pushing the pocket.

If Jameis doesn't throw 4 picks .... with a QBR of 38.1.
The odd thing is they went 4-1 after the Carolina game. Then I thought it was something the Ravens did that other teams copied, but they went 4-2 after the Ravens game.
Then I thought if the Panthers and Ravens showed how to play Watson and the offense, why didn't the Patriots follow that blueprint?
Then I thought the Patriots were sandbagging for the playoffs and didn't follow the blueprint.
Then I thought their lose 1 win 2 strategy would take them to the AFC championship game.

Then I thought, thinking about the Texans gives me headaches.
 

Corrosion

Idealist
Staff member
The odd thing is they went 4-1 after the Carolina game. Then I thought it was something the Ravens did that other teams copied, but they went 4-2 after the Ravens game.
Then I thought if the Panthers and Ravens showed how to play Watson and the offense, why didn't the Patriots follow that blueprint?
Then I thought the Patriots were sandbagging for the playoffs and didn't follow the blueprint.
Then I thought their lose 1 win 2 strategy would take them to the AFC championship game.

Then I thought, thinking about the Texans gives me headaches.

I think its a question of talent and personnel.

Carolina , the Ravens and Bills all have a lot of talent in their front 4 .... The Patriots don't have that level of talent in the front 4-7..

Denver .... I don't know what to say.

Those other teams the Texans beat along the way don't have talent in the front 4 - 7 comparable to those three teams that were very successful in executing that plan.
 

CloakNNNdagger

Hall of Fame
As I understand, they are contemplating using the first 2 weeks of TC like an OTA period...........then having only 2 preseason games. But things are changing so quickly, who knows. No matter what, this group of NFL players are unlikely to have enough time to truly test any players other than expected 1st and 2nd teams (others, especially the UDFAs, will have little time to make an impression to make the team). Nor will there be enough time to really learn the offensive and defensive schemes and timing involved..........or gel as groups..........or even get into decent football shape.
This afternoon, it looks like the NFL has made their TC/Preseason official: https://www.texanstalk.com/threads/nfl-covid-19-protocol.115231/#post-3076506
 

thunderkyss

Just win baby!!!
Staff member
Contributor's Club
Indeed unfortunately we will have three new players learning to see what Watson is seeing. And with this COVID-19 crap it’s a strong chance they won’t have OTS and TC. Plus they’re in talks about cutting pre season games.
Which is difficult to do if you're constantly changing the pieces.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I think it’s more of a function of Watson communicating what he sees & expects. The better he gets at communicating the better the offense will be executing.

Especially if we’re talking about veterans.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
I think its a question of talent and personnel.

Carolina , the Ravens and Bills all have a lot of talent in their front 4 .... The Patriots don't have that level of talent in the front 4-7..

Denver .... I don't know what to say.

Those other teams the Texans beat along the way don't have talent in the front 4 - 7 comparable to those three teams that were very successful in executing that plan.
Denver did the same thing the Panthers did
 

Earl34

Veteran
I think its a question of talent and personnel.

Carolina , the Ravens and Bills all have a lot of talent in their front 4 .... The Patriots don't have that level of talent in the front 4-7..

Denver .... I don't know what to say.

Those other teams the Texans beat along the way don't have talent in the front 4 - 7 comparable to those three teams that were very successful in executing that plan.
Good point and with those strong front 4-7, 15 of the 44 regular season sacks were given up in the Panthers, Ravens and Broncos games. I also find it interesting that Fuller only had 23 yards against the Panthers and didn't play against the Ravens and Broncos.
 

KoolAid Sipper

Waterboy
I think its a question of talent and personnel.

Carolina , the Ravens and Bills all have a lot of talent in their front 4 .... The Patriots don't have that level of talent in the front 4-7..

Denver .... I don't know what to say.

Those other teams the Texans beat along the way don't have talent in the front 4 - 7 comparable to those three teams that were very successful in executing that plan.
Being that this is the O-line thread, I think the the current group has enough mixture of individual talent. Let's see if they can take it to another level as a group especially the interior. The interior guys need to be smarter in how they execute. Barring injury, the OL is set so I'm not going to single out any one player anymore. Whenever the teams are able to practice, extra work needs to be put in on challenging this line against stunts and overloads. I keep looking for who sets the tone amongst them. Earlier you mentioned the effects of a talented DL front keeping containment while pushing the pocket from the middle, well that's a problem for any QB at any given time. As an OL, that should be an embarrassment if it happens consistently/frequently in a game.
 

CloakNNNdagger

Hall of Fame
Being that this is the O-line thread, I think the the current group has enough mixture of individual talent. Let's see if they can take it to another level as a group especially the interior. The interior guys need to be smarter in how they execute. Barring injury, the OL is set so I'm not going to single out any one player anymore. Whenever the teams are able to practice, extra work needs to be put in on challenging this line against stunts and overloads. I keep looking for who sets the tone amongst them. Earlier you mentioned the effects of a talented DL front keeping containment while pushing the pocket from the middle, well that's a problem for any QB at any given time. As an OL, that should be an embarrassment if it happens consistently/frequently in a game.
Unless, the QB (any QB) habitually fails to quickly and effectively read and get rid of the ball in a timely fashion.......then all bets are off.
 

Earl34

Veteran
Being that this is the O-line thread, I think the the current group has enough mixture of individual talent. Let's see if they can take it to another level as a group especially the interior. The interior guys need to be smarter in how they execute. Barring injury, the OL is set so I'm not going to single out any one player anymore. Whenever the teams are able to practice, extra work needs to be put in on challenging this line against stunts and overloads. I keep looking for who sets the tone amongst them. Earlier you mentioned the effects of a talented DL front keeping containment while pushing the pocket from the middle, well that's a problem for any QB at any given time. As an OL, that should be an embarrassment if it happens consistently/frequently in a game.
Good point. Here are the Ravens' defensive highlights of that game. You will see failures at every level from play calling to QB play to OL blocking to RB blocking to questionable WR routes.
  1. On certain sacks, Watson held the ball too long
  2. There were sacks, were the RBs were blocking and getting pushed right into the throwing lanes or right in front of Watson.
  3. There were sacks were the OL got physically whipped
  4. There were coverage sacks where the OL initially did their jobs, but the slow developing routes never developed.
The Texans got physically outplayed, got hit in the mouth and didn't respond. So, all bets are off when these things happen.

 
Last edited:

badboy

Hall of Fame
After 5 starters and barring trades, if 9 backups 1. Mancz cheap vet gone next year...please 2. Kelemete see 1. I've been cutting him for two years but O'Brien likes veterans 3. Iwuagwu high hopes for him 4.Roderick Johnson/Charlie Heck. I thought RJ would step up 2019 with revolving door but with Howard back and Fulton evidently not being traded I expect RJ gets final spot with Heck sent to PS. I would not be shocked to see Johnson cut.

If Warford signed color me ecstatic.
 


Top