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State of the O-line

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
Since the center snapping the ball doesn't provide any sound, how can it be analogous to the starter's gun? The LT is watching the pass rusher in front of him, not staring to the right at the center. So, Watson has to be the starter's gun.

To my knowledge, the only time the other OL would be looking at the center would be when they are using a silent count, otherwise, the QB is the starter's gun.
Jeff Saturday used to make the OL calls for the Colts.

DW4 makes the OL calls for the Texans.

Although a good C is a staple of any good OL.
 

Earl34

Veteran
Jeff Saturday used to make the OL calls for the Colts.

DW4 makes the OL calls for the Texans.

Although a good C is a staple of any good OL.
My statement was in context to the Texans, Tunsil, Martin and Watson. As you know, I've posted multiple times that Saturday made the calls for Manning and if the center is making the calls for Manning, it should be good enough for Texans.
 

TheKDog

Hall of Fame
Contributor's Club
Watson was sacked four times and hit in motion by Tyrann Mathieu during his one interception. I don’t have a good hurries source immediately post game but he was hit seven times in 36 dropbacks.

This is a team where every member of the offensive line either cost a first- or second-round pick, was signed as a premium free agent, or was given a humongous extension.

Against a team that, despite a good finish, was projected as an average defense this year. That is inexcusable.

 

Lucky

Moderator
Staff member
Fulton was abused by an All Pro DT, but the coaches should have seen that coming. Fulton should have shaded Chris Jones to the outside, as he had help from Martin inside. That's just scheming. That should have been obvious, and at least corrected the first time.

Howard gave up a sack on a 3rd and long after 2 dive plays up the middle, down 17. That's all on the playcaller. Whomever that is.

Martin gave up a sack on a complete brainfart, not picking up the LB right in front of him. Looked like he was over eager to look busy, rather than playing smart.

This is just not a football savvy group, or team. I don't know if it's from coaching or player selection or what. The players that are football smart, they get rid of.
 

otisbean

Veteran
Contributor's Club
Fulton was abused by an All Pro DT, but the coaches should have seen that coming. Fulton should have shaded Chris Jones to the outside, as he had help from Martin inside. That's just scheming. That should have been obvious, and at least corrected the first time.

Howard gave up a sack on a 3rd and long after 2 dive plays up the middle, down 17. That's all on the playcaller. Whomever that is.

Martin gave up a sack on a complete brainfart, not picking up the LB right in front of him. Looked like he was over eager to look busy, rather than playing smart.

This is just not a football savvy group, or team. I don't know if it's from coaching or player selection or what. The players that are football smart, they get rid of.
I can’t for the life of me figure out how Devlin keeps his job. Different year, same results. Our OL looks like it has no idea what it’s doing
 

Earl34

Veteran
Fulton was abused by an All Pro DT, but the coaches should have seen that coming. Fulton should have shaded Chris Jones to the outside, as he had help from Martin inside. That's just scheming. That should have been obvious, and at least corrected the first time.

Howard gave up a sack on a 3rd and long after 2 dive plays up the middle, down 17. That's all on the playcaller. Whomever that is.

Martin gave up a sack on a complete brainfart, not picking up the LB right in front of him. Looked like he was over eager to look busy, rather than playing smart.

This is just not a football savvy group, or team. I don't know if it's from coaching or player selection or what. The players that are football smart, they get rid of.
To your point on how Fulton was blocking Jones. A former NFL OL coach agrees with you.

 

dream_team

Hall of Fame
I admit, I was bullish on the o-line (if healthy)... but the trenches is where we lost this game. The Chiefs DL got consistent pressure, while the Texans DL couldn't get pressure nor stop the run. Making Nick Martin the 2nd highest paid center in the league is just mind-boggling. It's just as bad as making Fairbairn the 3rd highest paid kicker.
 

Earl34

Veteran
Mathieu straight up punk'd Fells, the "blocking specialist"
Fells was signed as a blocking specialist and last year he was a pleasant surprise in the passing game. Unfortunately, the GM brought him here for his blocking and it has been terrible. I saw a stat that he led NFL TEs in missed blocks and that play demonstrates he has not improved from 2019.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
So you're advocating the David Carr technique, keep you eyes on the pass rush and not downfield where the receivers are. That worked out well.

How about the 250 lb TE not getting thrown around like a ragdoll by the 190 lb SS?
Not at all,

There's a feel for where the pass rush is coming from. Some have the ability to feel pressure and know where it's coming from, others dont. The great ones have this.
 

thunderkyss

Just win baby!!!
Staff member
Contributor's Club
OK

DW4's gotta be more aware though and get rid of the ball.

How many times have we typed this?
For the most part I agree. But that play is a poor example of it. Fells should be able to block a safety. A much smaller safety. & HB beat him with power & very quickly.


Watson needs to speed up the decision making process. That’s just not a good example
 

TheKDog

Hall of Fame
Contributor's Club
Fells was signed as a blocking specialist and last year he was a pleasant surprise in the passing game. Unfortunately, the GM brought him here for his blocking and it has been terrible. I saw a stat that he led NFL TEs in missed blocks and that play demonstrates he has not improved from 2019.
When good blockers come here and consistently do worse, I blame the coach and system.
 

powda

Baby can you dig your man?
Take a look at the OL in this screenshot. This was the pressure immediately after the snap. Look at Scharping's left elbow. Look at the defenders and the OL who suppose to be blocking. For game one, this screenshot tells me all I need to know about the state of the OL. They need to improve and fast.

View attachment 6613
Looks like sack stew. Pathetic.
 

badboy

Hall of Fame
So you're advocating the David Carr technique, keep you eyes on the pass rush and not downfield where the receivers are. That worked out well.

How about the 250 lb TE not getting thrown around like a ragdoll by the 190 lb SS?
I think Badger said something funny and Fells was laughing and missed the snap.
 

badboy

Hall of Fame
Take a look at the OL in this screenshot. This was the pressure immediately after the snap. Look at Scharping's left elbow. Look at the defenders and the OL who suppose to be blocking. For game one, this screenshot tells me all I need to know about the state of the OL. They need to improve and fast.

View attachment 6613
What? He and Tunsil trying to keep DW upright. Right? :smiliepalm:
 

OptimisticTexan

6 Years- 1 Game and Counting!!!!
OK

DW4's gotta be more aware though and get rid of the ball.

How many times have we typed this?
Ok...OL was leaking defenders on almost every pass play, receivers were blanketed and unable to break containment.....so the safe option would've been to throw +-28 passes high and deep into the sidelines? The safest thing Watson could do when he recognizes blitz.....audible to RB draw until either the OC calls better plays or the receivers figure out how to beat coverage early.
 

dream_team

Hall of Fame
Anyone know why the All-22 is not yet available? Thought it was avail after a couple of days.

Would really like to watch the OL play. This is my biggest disappointment from the game.

We knew the defense would struggle against stopping the Chiefs offense. We knew there could potentially be some chemistry issues between DW4 and the new receivers. But seeing the OL struggle as much as they did was a surprise and very concerning.
 

CloakNNNdagger

Hall of Fame
Take a look at the OL in this screenshot. This was the pressure immediately after the snap. Look at Scharping's left elbow. Look at the defenders and the OL who suppose to be blocking. For game one, this screenshot tells me all I need to know about the state of the OL. They need to improve and fast.

View attachment 6613
This screen shot does not tell the story. This play occurred with ~1 minute left in the 2nd Q. Watson took ~3.3 seconds to get rid of the ball. Without studying the video, the perspective of Sharping's elbow is lost in visual depth. In the still, it looks like Sharping hit Watson. That never happened. Sharping was going after the Chief defender being engaged by Tunsil, in order to push him away from Watson............he passed in front of Watson, never making any contact with Watson. Brandin Cooks took a short crossing route right in front of Watson giving him an open outlet, but Watson read it too late and threw the pass way behind Cooks. There were enough breakdowns and faults in this play to go around. But still pics seldom tell the whole story......and often serve to distort it.
 

dream_team

Hall of Fame
This screen shot does not tell the story. This play occurred with ~1 minute left in the 2nd Q. Watson took ~3.3 seconds to get rid of the ball. Without studying the video, the perspective of Sharping's elbow is lost in visual depth. In the still, it looks like Sharping hit Watson. That never happened. Sharping was going after the Chief defender being engaged by Tunsil, in order to push him away from Watson............he passed in front of Watson, never making any contact with Watson. Brandin Cooks took a short crossing route right in front of Watson giving him an open outlet, but Watson read it too late and threw the pass way behind Cooks. There were enough breakdowns and faults in this play to go around. But still pics seldom tell the whole story......and often serve to distort it.
I just rewatched that play several times. I think Sharping definitely hits Watson with his elbow. You see Watson's forward momentum stop. To his defense, Watson stepping up in pocket and attempting a jump pass isn't something he should be expecting to happen.

The pressure from Jones comes right away, as if Fulton wasn't even there. At the top of his dropback, DW recognizes the pressure immediately. You are right that Cooks was coming open on a crossing route, but what's hard to tell is if Watson has a passing lane or can even see him. We need the All-22 for this. Martin, Scharping and the DT may have been blocking his vision or passing lane. That's why he steps up and tries the jump pass, but Scharp's elbow caused the pass to be errant.

I think what's important here is there is NO blitz. Just a standard 4 man pass rush. In these situations, you want the QB to trust his protection. You want the QB's eyes to be looking downfield, and not on the trenches to make sure there's no pass rush.
 

Texansballer74

Hall of Fame
Take a look at the OL in this screenshot. This was the pressure immediately after the snap. Look at Scharping's left elbow. Look at the defenders and the OL who suppose to be blocking. For game one, this screenshot tells me all I need to know about the state of the OL. They need to improve and fast.

View attachment 6613
Watson suppose to use his Supernatural powers and turn into Superman and hover over this rush to complete this pass attempt.
 

Texansballer74

Hall of Fame
I just rewatched that play several times. I think Sharping definitely hits Watson with his elbow. You see Watson's forward momentum stop. To his defense, Watson stepping up in pocket and attempting a jump pass isn't something he should be expecting to happen.

The pressure from Jones comes right away, as if Fulton wasn't even there. At the top of his dropback, DW recognizes the pressure immediately. You are right that Cooks was coming open on a crossing route, but what's hard to tell is if Watson has a passing lane or can even see him. We need the All-22 for this. Martin, Scharping and the DT may have been blocking his vision or passing lane. That's why he steps up and tries the jump pass, but Scharp's elbow caused the pass to be errant.

I think what's important here is there is NO blitz. Just a standard 4 man pass rush. In these situations, you want the QB to trust his protection. You want the QB's eyes to be looking downfield, and not on the trenches to make sure there's no pass rush.
Thank you and very well said.
 

CloakNNNdagger

Hall of Fame
I just rewatched that play several times. I think Sharping definitely hits Watson with his elbow. You see Watson's forward momentum stop. To his defense, Watson stepping up in pocket and attempting a jump pass isn't something he should be expecting to happen.

The pressure from Jones comes right away, as if Fulton wasn't even there. At the top of his dropback, DW recognizes the pressure immediately. You are right that Cooks was coming open on a crossing route, but what's hard to tell is if Watson has a passing lane or can even see him. We need the All-22 for this. Martin, Scharping and the DT may have been blocking his vision or passing lane. That's why he steps up and tries the jump pass, but Scharp's elbow caused the pass to be errant.

I think what's important here is there is NO blitz. Just a standard 4 man pass rush. In these situations, you want the QB to trust his protection. You want the QB's eyes to be looking downfield, and not on the trenches to make sure there's no pass rush.
I've also watched the play several times in slow mo, and unless the all-22 shows any different, Sharping did not make contact with Watson.

Also any QB coach goes nuts when he sees his QB jump pass (especially in a crowd) because accuracy is lost and risk of injury increases. A couple of plays later, Watson again went to a jump pass, with no apparent obstruction to his left where his receiver was waiting for the outlet pass........and he reacted quite slowly to the read and missed grossly on a wide open Duke Johnson in that short crossing route.
 
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OptimisticTexan

6 Years- 1 Game and Counting!!!!
I've also watched the play several times in slow mo, and unless the all-22 shows any different, Sharping did not make contact with Watson.

Also any QB coach goes nuts when he sees his QB jump pass (especially in a crowd) because accuracy is lost and risk of injury increases. A couple of plays later, Watson again went to a jump pass, with no apparent obstruction to his left where his receiver was waiting for the outlet pass........and he reacted quite slowly to the read and missed grossly on a wide open Duke Johnson in that short crossing route.
Exactly how much blame are you putting on the OL for putting Watson in this situation. At this point in his career, how much faith should Watson have in his OL when the pocket is crumbling and he hasn't even set his foot yet? I know this doesn't happen all the time but enough that Watson feels like a jump throw is his only option. I'm going to lean a little more towards dream_teams analysis b/c it appears to take the entire scope of the play into consideration.
 

Earl34

Veteran
This screen shot does not tell the story. This play occurred with ~1 minute left in the 2nd Q. Watson took ~3.3 seconds to get rid of the ball. Without studying the video, the perspective of Sharping's elbow is lost in visual depth. In the still, it looks like Sharping hit Watson. That never happened. Sharping was going after the Chief defender being engaged by Tunsil, in order to push him away from Watson............he passed in front of Watson, never making any contact with Watson. Brandin Cooks took a short crossing route right in front of Watson giving him an open outlet, but Watson read it too late and threw the pass way behind Cooks. There were enough breakdowns and faults in this play to go around. But still pics seldom tell the whole story......and often serve to distort it.
Wait a second. It took 3.3 seconds to get rid of the ball because at 2 seconds, the rush was on him before he completed a 3 step drop. Here is the video again. Count to 2 after the snap and watch the defender and Watson's drop. I'm not sure how you expect Watson to throw to Cooks when he's under pressure during his drop.

 

dream_team

Hall of Fame
I've also watched the play several times in slow mo, and unless the all-22 shows any different, Sharping did not make contact with Watson.

Also any QB coach goes nuts when he sees his QB jump pass (especially in a crowd) because accuracy is lost and risk of injury increases. A couple of plays later, Watson again went to a jump pass, with no apparent obstruction to his left where his receiver was waiting for the outlet pass........and he reacted quite slowly to the read and missed grossly on a wide open Duke Johnson in that short crossing route.
Well, I guess you & I are seeing two different things. Even if you watch the tweet @Earl34 attached above, it's quite clear to me that DW4's forward momentum is stopped by Scharp's elbow.
 

Texansballer74

Hall of Fame
Wait a second. It took 3.3 seconds to get rid of the ball because at 2 seconds, the rush was on him before he completed a 3 step drop. Here is the video again. Count to 2 after the snap and watch the defender and Watson's drop. I'm not sure how you expect Watson to throw to Cooks when he's under pressure during his drop.

The issue here is we all know who doesn’t like Watson. No disrespect to those guys at all. Have to put that in there as a disclaimer. Therefore, they will only look for the negatives versus the positive. No way anyone can say Watson had time on that play. That was all on that offensive line, on that specific play.

Just like the drop by Fuller and the interception. It’s baffling to me that anyone would put that on Watson. It’s like Watson has to be the only one making plays.
 
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dream_team

Hall of Fame
No, we are not seeing two different things. There was no contact until after Watson released the ball.
OK, well that's a better debate. You said:

Without studying the video, the perspective of Sharping's elbow is lost in visual depth. In the still, it looks like Sharping hit Watson. That never happened.
I just thought we were debating whether Scharp hit him or not, which he clearly did.
 

Double Barrel

Moderator / Admin
Staff member
Contributor's Club
Not at all,

There's a feel for where the pass rush is coming from. Some have the ability to feel pressure and know where it's coming from, others dont. The great ones have this.
Tom Brady, in his prime, always had a weakness: pressure up the middle. Even the great ones have an Achilles heel. We'd see the great defenses leaving him frustrated when they could consistently pressure him up the middle. It's usually why NE would lose in the post season.

The difference between great & mediocre results is a coaching staff that can adapt the talent and scheme to minimize defenses exploiting the weakness, vs. an inept coaching staff that never seems to be able to effectively solve the problem.
 


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