Keep Texans Talk Google Ad Free!
Venmo Tip Jar | Paypal Tip Jar
Thanks for your support! 🍺😎👍
State of the O-line
- Thread starter jradMIT
- Start date
welsh texan
You may say I’m a dreamer but I’m not the only one
I think he had maybe 2 seasons where he was totally injury free and he looked pretty good. But all too often was playing through something that limited him to the point of being garbage.
I thought I remembered Winston being ranked late 1st rd, but having some kind of injury that caused him to fall to us in the 3rd. He was ranked #4 of 139 tackles (#37 overall) ... ran a 4.96 40 with shuttle and 3 cone of 4.44 and 7.47 ... 6065 - 310. We took Derek Newton in the 7th rd, ranked #16 out of 87 tackles (#183 overall) ... ran a 5.01 40 shuttle and 3 cone of 5.0 and 7.76 ... 6047 - 311. Offensive tackles are the only position that average a higher Wonderlic score than the QB's ... I couldn't find their scores, but Eric is the president of NFLPA. SURVEY SAYS .... !!
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Winston was a great rushing OT and a suck pass blocking one.
https://www.profootballfocus.com/eric-winston-hits-the-market/ Interesting piece on Winston and the Texans' blundering ways !
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
The Texans were cap strapped at the time and Winston played himself out of a job when he did not want to decrease his contract and was seeking an extension on top of that. Once released by the Texans, Winston took himself out of potential jobs with his unrealistic asking price with most all other teams . There was very little interest by other teams in signing him after he left the Texans. The Chiefs finally signed him for a four-year, $22 million contract that included a $4 million signing bonus. The next year he was cut because the Chiefs did not feel he played up to his contract. The next year he was only able to garner enough interest for a 1 year $1 million contract, after which he was quickly released. Neither of those years were impressive and his pass blocking skills continued to steeply decline, giving up too many sacks and finding himself with PFF pass blocking ratings near the bottom of all tackles. The 2 years following being cut by the Texans were the only 2 years that he essentially was considered starter material. Tell tale was neither Shanahan or Kubiak subsequently ever entertained putting him on their new staffs.
Last edited:
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
So you learned PFF swings and misses.
Texecutioner
Hall of Fame
His pass protection was poor and he was really annoying as well.
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
On air (radio 610) weekly after games, no matter how poorly he may have played and no matter how obviously he was a major contributor to a loss , he never had a problem finding fault.......but never in his own game.
Yeah .... and I heard he pulls the legs off of puppies .... on this board !!
Texian
Hall of Fame
The beginning of the Texans 3 year run in salary cap hell. And for all practical purposes the end of the run of the best OL Texans history. (I heard that Winston suffered nerve damage in his leg his next to last year with the Texans which caused his steep decline.)
Agreed, Newton's only good yr was in a contract yr. (Imagine that)
Winston was nothing more than a serviceable RT. He also was a lockeroom lawyer and his talent wasn't worth the trouble. IMHO
Winston> Newton.
TheRealJoker
Hall of Fame
Who do you think will win the starting center job? Nick Martin or Greg Mancz?
https://torotimes.com/2017/06/23/houston-texans-position-battle-nick-martin-vs-greg-mancz/
https://torotimes.com/2017/06/23/houston-texans-position-battle-nick-martin-vs-greg-mancz/
Number19
Hall of Fame
This is a tough one to call. Mancz has the advantage of a year's starting experience. Coming out of college, Martin was thought to be tougher, stronger and stouter when bull rushed. Mancz is a lunch pail blue collar player who has always performed at a high level, playing through pain. Martin has the pedigree.
Martin was drafted to be our OC, and IMO, the job is his to lose.
The question becomes, how do you play Mancz, now that he has proved himself. He has the ability to play any position except LT, although RT is a stretch. But he can play RG, LG and OC at an above average level, so his best role may be as the ideal rotational player. But he should have the opportunity to beat out X or Allen for one of the starting guard spots.
(Edit) I read the link after posting. Good read and I'm in agreement.
Hey man that's a good question, but I think it's Martin's job to lose.
If Martin & Mancz are two of the best three interior Olineman on the roster I sure hope thy figure out a way to have both guys starting.
Texecutioner
Hall of Fame
Yeah, he always had a high horse that he thought people viewed him on, but people didn't. He thought he was the "fans choice" spokesman of the Texans or something for a while. Before him, it was McKinny. Lol!
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
I'm not aware of any leg injury in 2010 that left him with nerve damage. Right after the 2011 season, before his release, he required arthroscopic ankle surgery.
e
First off John get a current picture of the OLine because one of those guys is no longer with the team.
http://www.chron.com/sports/texans/...-Texans-breakdown-Offensive-line-11246943.php
First off John get a current picture of the OLine because one of those guys is no longer with the team.
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
Houston Texans: Offensive line must step up, or risk 2017 season
32 minutes ago
The Houston Texans offensive line is far from being considered among the NFL’s best and that could hold the team back in 2017.
The playoff window is open now for the Houston Texans. The AFC South is a weak division and the Texans have won back-to-back championships, despite shoddy quarterback play.
With the quarterback always on the forefront of everyone’s mind, it is easy to overlook other offensive pieces that can help turn a new starter into a competitive, competent player. Whether it is Tom Savage or Deshaun Watson at quarterback for the Texans, the offensive line has to step up as a unit. The Texans cannot afford another David Carr situation, especially after investing two first round picks to get Watson.
In that regard, the 2017 season is key for the offensive line. The Houston offensive line is not filled with household names and there are few standouts among the starting five. This was most readily apparent in Pro Football Focus’ recent ranking of offensive lines. The Texans were 29th in the NFL and last in the AFC South division. Writer Michael Renner’s analysis was succinct:
The emergence of Nick Martin and Julie’n Davenport could work wonders for this line, but there’s little hope for the status quo from a season ago. Left guard Xavier Sua-Filo looks like a bust at this point after back-to-back seasons as a bottom 20 guard.
While it is perhaps unfair to write off Martin and Davenport simply because they have not emerged despite not taking a snap, it is fair to say that there are many questions surrounding the offensive line. Few teams have a situation as uncertain as Houston heading into training camp.
Finding some certainty appears to be key for the team’s overall success. Lamar Miller and the other running backs need to be able to set the tone on offense and control the clock. The balance has to be near 50/50 between run and pass with Savage or Watson under center as they both get accustomed to being starters with significant playing time for the first time in their careers.
If the offensive line isn’t up to the task, Miller and company will struggle to gain yards and be relied upon as threats that can be weapons to complement a passing attack that shines primarily because of DeAndre Hopkins‘ ability as a receiver. Without bringing the defense into the box to account for the run, the Hopkins-show may not get going as the defense can cheat to cover him with more players.
The big guys up front cannot be overlooked heading into 2017 and it appears the Texans may have done so. With only a limited time left before cap troubles threaten Houston’s dominant defense, it is fair to question how many uncertain pieces the Texans can afford to have in the next couple seasons.
Even if Watson becomes a franchise signal caller, he will need a competent team around him and without an offensive line of the highest caliber there may be a wasted season before the Texans are able to actually compete for a Super Bowl.
32 minutes ago
The Houston Texans offensive line is far from being considered among the NFL’s best and that could hold the team back in 2017.
The playoff window is open now for the Houston Texans. The AFC South is a weak division and the Texans have won back-to-back championships, despite shoddy quarterback play.
With the quarterback always on the forefront of everyone’s mind, it is easy to overlook other offensive pieces that can help turn a new starter into a competitive, competent player. Whether it is Tom Savage or Deshaun Watson at quarterback for the Texans, the offensive line has to step up as a unit. The Texans cannot afford another David Carr situation, especially after investing two first round picks to get Watson.
In that regard, the 2017 season is key for the offensive line. The Houston offensive line is not filled with household names and there are few standouts among the starting five. This was most readily apparent in Pro Football Focus’ recent ranking of offensive lines. The Texans were 29th in the NFL and last in the AFC South division. Writer Michael Renner’s analysis was succinct:
The emergence of Nick Martin and Julie’n Davenport could work wonders for this line, but there’s little hope for the status quo from a season ago. Left guard Xavier Sua-Filo looks like a bust at this point after back-to-back seasons as a bottom 20 guard.
While it is perhaps unfair to write off Martin and Davenport simply because they have not emerged despite not taking a snap, it is fair to say that there are many questions surrounding the offensive line. Few teams have a situation as uncertain as Houston heading into training camp.
Finding some certainty appears to be key for the team’s overall success. Lamar Miller and the other running backs need to be able to set the tone on offense and control the clock. The balance has to be near 50/50 between run and pass with Savage or Watson under center as they both get accustomed to being starters with significant playing time for the first time in their careers.
If the offensive line isn’t up to the task, Miller and company will struggle to gain yards and be relied upon as threats that can be weapons to complement a passing attack that shines primarily because of DeAndre Hopkins‘ ability as a receiver. Without bringing the defense into the box to account for the run, the Hopkins-show may not get going as the defense can cheat to cover him with more players.
The big guys up front cannot be overlooked heading into 2017 and it appears the Texans may have done so. With only a limited time left before cap troubles threaten Houston’s dominant defense, it is fair to question how many uncertain pieces the Texans can afford to have in the next couple seasons.
Even if Watson becomes a franchise signal caller, he will need a competent team around him and without an offensive line of the highest caliber there may be a wasted season before the Texans are able to actually compete for a Super Bowl.
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
PFF ranked the Texans roster as 21st of 32 NFL rosters. If that wasn't bad enough, now PFF has come out ranking the Texans offensive line going into the 2017 season as 29th of 32 NFL offensive lines.
******************************************************************************************************************
Ranking all 32 offensive line units heading into the 2017 season
2 days ago
******************************************************************************************************************
Ranking all 32 offensive line units heading into the 2017 season
2 days ago
Spot on Article
I will also add they will have to be very lucky to fill the OL holes in the 2018 draft since they dont have a pick until rd 3 and have been generally poor in FA. In addition to the big question of how good can Watson become? I wouldn't think he would be avg at best for the first 2 1/2 to 3 yrs and by then the defense will be losing guys due to age/injury.
Number19
Hall of Fame
They got a 2nd round OC back from IR, which is the equivalent of a high draft pick.
Number19
Hall of Fame
I think most are looking at this all wrong, thinking we needed to hit a home run, addressing last year's OL problems. Instead we may have just hit a line drive for a single with the chance of stretching it into a double.
Allen is 20 lbs lighter and should improve on last year's performance. As steady as Mancz was last year, Martin could be an improvement, leaving Mancz to battle Su'a Filo for the RG spot.
The wild card is Giacomini. If we could have a little luck and he could remain healthy, he would be an improvement at RT.
We didn't have any news breaking improvements, but the team did have these minor tweaks which might just pay dividends. We don't need to be a top ten OL. We just need to improve to middle of the pack and we may have done enough to achieve this.
Allen is 20 lbs lighter and should improve on last year's performance. As steady as Mancz was last year, Martin could be an improvement, leaving Mancz to battle Su'a Filo for the RG spot.
The wild card is Giacomini. If we could have a little luck and he could remain healthy, he would be an improvement at RT.
We didn't have any news breaking improvements, but the team did have these minor tweaks which might just pay dividends. We don't need to be a top ten OL. We just need to improve to middle of the pack and we may have done enough to achieve this.
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
Number19
Hall of Fame
But we have Mancz. Having Martin perform to expectations is one of the factors which stretch our little single into a double.
gs27
Veteran
I am much more comfortable with the O-line this season then last. Last year we had question marks all over the board and what wasn't a question didn't look good.
This year we have a center that performed above average in his first year playing last year and a second round pick to compete at center. Both have at least a year learning the scheme and the loser will compete with Allen and X for a guard position.
On the outside we have Lamm, Giacomini, Chris Clark and a draft pick battling for RT and swing.
Last season we had very few starters much less depth with experience in our system. This year we have players with starts under their belts competing for spots.
This year we have a center that performed above average in his first year playing last year and a second round pick to compete at center. Both have at least a year learning the scheme and the loser will compete with Allen and X for a guard position.
On the outside we have Lamm, Giacomini, Chris Clark and a draft pick battling for RT and swing.
Last season we had very few starters much less depth with experience in our system. This year we have players with starts under their belts competing for spots.
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
I hope.
badboy
Hall of Fame
Competition on our offensive line? Interesting...
Number19
Hall of Fame
It's a month before training camp, with our pre-season roster pretty much set. What better time for a little hope and optimism? No negative waves.
OptimisticTexan
2024 / Rebuilding Block 4 After Playoffs / Texans
This was the gist of my entire off-season argument. The Houston Texans were not a rookie QB away from being a dominant team. They are not the Cowboys or their playbook offensively!!!
Savage and Weeden could have carried the torch this season and either of them could have been retained at a reasonable price, contract wise, for the 2018 season and beyond.
What the Texans could have done, sign a FA and draft an OL or 2 in the draft. If not for immediate starters, then reliable backups in the interim of becoming starters.
The weakest part of this offense...the OL would have been addressed and allowed to gel this season. The team is only out a 2018 RD2 pick and have cap space flexibility going forward. If Savage delivers, the team has a different focus for next years draft but could still pickup another QB in RD3 or later. If Savage and Weeden fail to deliver then it's mox-nix anyways b/c O'Brien would be gone, RC would probably be promoted to retain the defensive staff and they would find a new OC. The good news...with the 2018 QB class looking pretty strong and deep at the moment, the Texans could have slid their chips into the center of the table and moved up in RD1 to secure one of the 3-4 top QB's.
I feel very strongly that RS jumped the gun in building this house...he paid dearly for a QB while the teams offensive foundation still appears very weak. If for whatever reason, these QB's (including Watson) have a bad 2018, then the rebound could be difficult and long with no pick until RD3 in 2018 and having to use that available cap space to secure cornerstone players before they hit FA. If this happens, RS may be better off pulling a McClain/Luhnow move by selling off high-end assets to load up on new picks and expedite a much quicker turnaround....the only problem I see, will McNair realize his guy -RS- has failed at assembling a "complete" NFL team on multiple occasions?
Savage and Weeden could have carried the torch this season and either of them could have been retained at a reasonable price, contract wise, for the 2018 season and beyond.
What the Texans could have done, sign a FA and draft an OL or 2 in the draft. If not for immediate starters, then reliable backups in the interim of becoming starters.
The weakest part of this offense...the OL would have been addressed and allowed to gel this season. The team is only out a 2018 RD2 pick and have cap space flexibility going forward. If Savage delivers, the team has a different focus for next years draft but could still pickup another QB in RD3 or later. If Savage and Weeden fail to deliver then it's mox-nix anyways b/c O'Brien would be gone, RC would probably be promoted to retain the defensive staff and they would find a new OC. The good news...with the 2018 QB class looking pretty strong and deep at the moment, the Texans could have slid their chips into the center of the table and moved up in RD1 to secure one of the 3-4 top QB's.
I feel very strongly that RS jumped the gun in building this house...he paid dearly for a QB while the teams offensive foundation still appears very weak. If for whatever reason, these QB's (including Watson) have a bad 2018, then the rebound could be difficult and long with no pick until RD3 in 2018 and having to use that available cap space to secure cornerstone players before they hit FA. If this happens, RS may be better off pulling a McClain/Luhnow move by selling off high-end assets to load up on new picks and expedite a much quicker turnaround....the only problem I see, will McNair realize his guy -RS- has failed at assembling a "complete" NFL team on multiple occasions?
Even if Martin becomes a starter level player, what makes you think XSF will be more than what he is? Mancz is an avg starter at best. When is the last season Allen has stayed healthy? This doesn't even mention the Texans did little to improve the horrible RT situation. Or the fact Ricky did NOTHING in FA and traded away next yrs deep draft for a middling QB. (Hopefully Middling)
I just wanted to point out the other side of the equation and I hope you're right and I'm wrong, but I have less optimism for the coming season than I've had since 2002. I knew the early yrs would be bad but had hope that the franchise could be built into an elite franchise. 15 yrs later I've realized that's not going to be happening anytime soon.
I wish I could like this post 1,000 times.
gs27
Veteran
I don't think we have a "good" line, just think we are in a much better position then last season, which was awful. The really bad decisions came when we let Brooks and Jones (who were both consistent year in year out) go. Signing Newton to a large contract was another poor choice when he only had one decent season out of 4. Those were compounded when out of 23 selections in 2014, 15, & 16 we only selected 3 offensive lineman. Was little we could do in this years draft with a bad crop of top end line talent. 2016 was loaded with top end line talent, but we focused 3 of our first four picks on role players.
Last year should be the bottom of the curve for our O-Line. With the decisions made in previous years, this group will never have a top offensive line but I think middle of the pack is not to much to expect with the experience we have returning.
Good points, but Rick is just getting the guys O'Brien wants.
Yes, I have to agree with this. Letting Brooks and Jones go while only drafting XSF, and now Davenport, in 4 years is not very smart to me. PFF projects the Texans O-line to be 29th this season. Brandon Brooks is on the Eagles O-line. Guess where PFF ranks them? If you guessed #1 you'd be right. Of course this is all just speculation at this point but I'm not fooling myself about how good or bad the Texans O-line could be this season. A lot will depend on injuries throughout the season (as always) and who will step up to fill the void. I can't say for sure that "last year should be the bottom of the curve." I hope it was. But one thing is for sure, they need to address the O-line more during the draft!
banned1976
sleeper mode
There's a pretty good sample size (*10 drafts) to show that regardless of the HC the o-line hasn't been a priority for this organization. In those 10 drafts the Texans have drafted 14 offensive linemen. Of those:
1 first round pick
2 second round picks (both under Bill O'Brien)
3 third round picks
1 fourth round pick
The rest are 5th or later. Only one earned a starting job.
* Rick Smith wasn't involved in the 2006 draft in which the Texans selected Winston and Charles Spencer back-to-back.
Kubiak built a top 10 OL. It was still a top 10 OL when O'Brien got here.
PFF is on the outside looking in, just like we are. The Texans have options, none that we are high on, but they very well maybe.
& we had health concerns all through training camp. I don't think we had back to back weeks of a starting 5 until week 4 or 5... then Newton was out for the season week 7.
banned1976
sleeper mode
Mainly because of 1st round pick Duane Brown. They'll get better now because they have been addressing the offensive line recently. Or do you disagree?
I think they've sort of tried to address it but not sure the moves will work.
welsh texan
You may say I’m a dreamer but I’m not the only one
I disagree. I think they paid top whack to bring Gibbs in early on and he developed that unit making quality players out of average-at-best talent in the likes of Winston, Briesel, Myers...they coached the hell out of players who fit an unfashionably extreme ZBS, allowing them to get in guys who fit what they wanted at a lower cost because the value to the Texans' scheme was way higher than it was to the rest of the league.
The guys Gibbs wanted were there later on in the draft, and hanging around as bubble players at the bottom of other teams' depth chart.
The fact the line was anchored by a premier pick in Brown is simply indicative of McNair's philosophy when he really wants a coach. He goes out and offers a great wage to them and draft resources. Hes done it with both Gibbs and Wade to great success.
You cant tell me that the only reason that line was successful was because the LT was a first round pick.
Number19
Hall of Fame
Let's see. They had a pro bowl LT. They spent a second round pick on LG. They spent a second round pick on OC. They signed a second round FA for RG.
Despite not addressing the RT spot following Newton's injury, and we don't know their reasoning - there's only been one off season to do so, I hardly think an argument can be made that the Texans haven't made an effort to put the players in place.
I meant this off-season.
I this isn't about effort this is about results.
The results have been poor before this offseason. So it appears this offseason that Ricky just flat out gave up trying to fix the OL.
BTW, why do they have the pro bowl OT? HOF'er/GOAT Alex Gibbs.