Try to read it again... this time, act as if the person posting isn't me & it's just someone asking a question, not making a generalization.
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Selection 4.135: Tom Savage QB
- Thread starter pappy
- Start date
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Try to read it again... this time, act as if the person posting isn't me & it's just someone asking a question, not making a generalization.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
It's nothing personal. I just think you are operating off assumed rules which do not exist. In the absence of evidence to the contrary, my bet is coaches player development decisions are as varied as opinions around here on how it should be done.
xtruroyaltyx
Hall of Fame
Well...There's different kinds of coaching...Technique work...Throwing form...Foot placement...Play fakes....
And then there is the coaching a guy up for a specific system...reads, calls and things like that....
I'd imagine that Savage isn't going to be getting as much work as the 1st and second string QB are.
When they have the early portions of practice they all will do technique stuff...get coaching...
When they split and go do scout team stuff, Savage will have to carry that coaching over.
Now, since OB is the type of coach that seems to want his hands on everything I'd imagine he'd make his way over to where Savage is and check him out. If he sees a coaching opportunity..Hey, Tom..."yada, yada, yada"...And then work his way back to the offensive field...
Also, when the coaches watch film, if OB sees Savage dropping his elbow...or taking a bad step...or whatever....He'll see it and mention it to him.
So basically....From my experiences and IMO...Savage will most likely be working on his technique this coming season if he's on scout team...He'll be studying our offense, but he won't get as much first hand work in it making live reads..calling the offense...all the nuances of what we run.
But he will have a playbook...He will watch film. If there is an injury he'll get some reps in practice running our offense...
But...You can and should get better as a player on Scout team. It's going to require a little more self discipline on his part because he's not going to have an offensive coach watching him every second of practice like the other QB's will...IF he is third string/scout team designated QB. So he will have to take some coaching and carry it over when they go 'live' for scout team.
Again...This is just my opinion based on how I've seen it done and from what I know.
xtruroyaltyx
Hall of Fame
I also want to point out, that it is very hard to master an offense. A lot of time it takes a few years of work within a system to really 'master' it.
When a guy first gets put onto the field in live action it seems like fans expect a guy to know the offense and all the nuances...well because they're out there, so the coach must think that guy knows exactly what he's doing...
You're not only having to learn what your system requires, but you also have to learn what the opponents are doing.
Ok, the opponent is giving you a look...How does that affect what you guys want to do now?
So even if Savage started as a rookie right away, he still might not look like a savy vet in year two...
Really...there's no hard and fast rules on this stuff...Players are different...coaches are different...
Trying to pin down a result is extremely hard because there's so many variables.
I wouldn't write his future in stone based on what happens this year...whatever happens...
When a guy first gets put onto the field in live action it seems like fans expect a guy to know the offense and all the nuances...well because they're out there, so the coach must think that guy knows exactly what he's doing...
You're not only having to learn what your system requires, but you also have to learn what the opponents are doing.
Ok, the opponent is giving you a look...How does that affect what you guys want to do now?
So even if Savage started as a rookie right away, he still might not look like a savy vet in year two...
Really...there's no hard and fast rules on this stuff...Players are different...coaches are different...
Trying to pin down a result is extremely hard because there's so many variables.
I wouldn't write his future in stone based on what happens this year...whatever happens...
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
Isn't that what Tom Brady was doing his rookie year... running the scout team?
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Pretty sure, yes.
Playoffs
Hall of Fame
Brady was 1/3 passing for 6 yards in 2000.
In 2001, Brady replaced an injured Drew Bledsoe in 4th quarter of 2nd game and started their 3rd game.
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Mr teX
Hall of Fame
practice squad players can be poached from any team at any time. For this reason alone i don't think bOb will put Savage on the PS. He's either got to carry him on the roster or place him on injured reserve with a fake injury to ensure that he'll be able to keep him going into next year.
The situation of Brady was quite unique; it seems like the perfect storm.
Sometimes the heroe creates his own chances; sometimes circumstances bring about a hero; sometimes it's a bit of both.
I had tried to look at the situation before, which can be summarized from piecing together various articles mentioned in Wikipedia.
First off, the Patriots had drafted a QB named Scott Zoliak in the 4th round of the 1991 draft.
In 1992 Zoliak was one of the four QBs who started games for them.
The number one guy, Millen, starter 7.
Zoliak started 4; Hodson 3; and Carlson 2.
Hodson was drafted in the 3rd round, 1990, a year earlier than Zoliak.
Carlson was drafted in the fourth round in 1989 by the Rams but was traded to the Pats in 1992.
By next year, the Pats had let go the later two and kept Zoliak as number two.
That was when they drafted Bledsoe in the first round and handed him the starting gig.
Zoliak remained the backup, even with the coaching change from Parcells to Pete Carroll.
In 1998, Carroll ' s team finished 9-7.
In 1999, he brought in a journeyman veteran in John Friesz, a former 6th rounder, and drafted a dual threat QB named Michael Bishop in the 7th round.
Zoliak was not resigned; he was replaced by Friesz.
That season, Bledsoe started out strong, leading the Pats to a 6-2 mark with 13 TDs and 4 INTs.
The second half of the season was a complete reversal; however.
The Pats went 2-6; Bledsoe threw just 6 TDs as opposed to 17 INTs.
Exit Carroll; enter Belichik in 2000.
He drafted Brady in the 6th round, and kept 4 QBs, with Brady at the bottom.
The Pats went 5-1; Bledsoe threw for 17 TDs and 13 INTs.
Friesz was 11 of 21 for 66 yards and an INT.
Bishop went 3 of 9 for 80, 1 TD and 1 INT.
Brady was 1 of 3 for 6 yards in a 9-34 loss.
In March of 2001, the Pats resigned Bledsoe to a then record ten year contract for gazillions of dollar.
The let go of Friesz and brought in Damon Huard, a former UDFA who had shown a few flashes for the Dolphins.
The Pats were happy to have Bledsoe and 3 youngsters duking it out in TC.
The rest is history.
DX-TEX
#TomSavageDontCare
Placing him on IR would be counter productive to his growth.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Injured_reserve_list
PapaL
Loose Screw
I think he meant IR w the return designation.
I thought PUP would have been a viable option but they too are not allowed to practice.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
I agree and if he is designated to the PS or Injured reserve this year that should tell everyone all they need to know about what bOb thinks of Savage and his viability as the future of this franchise.
michaelm
vox nihili
I think Savage is a 100% lock to make the opening day roster. I also think there will be three QBs on that roster.
xtruroyaltyx
Hall of Fame
Where did practice squad come from?
I doubt Savage will be on the practice squad. I think he'll make the roster. I honestly don't know where he will be slotted on the depth chart, but if he is 3rd on the depth chart (which I think is most likely), he'll be running with the scout team.
I doubt Savage will be on the practice squad. I think he'll make the roster. I honestly don't know where he will be slotted on the depth chart, but if he is 3rd on the depth chart (which I think is most likely), he'll be running with the scout team.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
I introduced it and i only brought it up b/c of the talk of them possibly only carrying 2 qbs. If that were to actually be the case, Savage would have a hard time making the roster with 3 other veteran guys in front of him, imo of course.
In that regard the only way for BoB to attempt to keep him would be to stash him on IR or the PS....this is assuming that BoB believe he is in fact the future of this franchise.
But then again, if he truly believed that, I don't think he would try to get away with stashing him on the PS.
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
Savage almost definitely makes the 53. He'd have to stink it up really bad not to. If he does play horrible, then they'd try to stash him on the PS and not even worry if someone nabbed him.
Fitzpatrick almost definitely makes the 53, as well.
The real questions surround Case and T.J. If one of them really just kills it and Fitzpatrick stinks it up (or is just so far behind the other guys), then Fitzpatrick could be gone. If BOTH Case and T.J. play great, I expect them to keep one of them and try to ship the other one out.
xtruroyaltyx
Hall of Fame
If I had to guess right now, I'd say that three QB make the roster and they'd be Fitz, Keenum, Savage.
I heard they tried to trade Yates before the draft. I also heard that of the three QB's he's been the lease impressive with his throws so far. I also heard that Fitz arm strength was noticeably weaker than the other QB's.
Take it FWIW.
I think Yates is in an uphill battle to make the roster, but things change when the pads are on...When guys head into pre-season...
I'm not ruling anything out.
I heard they tried to trade Yates before the draft. I also heard that of the three QB's he's been the lease impressive with his throws so far. I also heard that Fitz arm strength was noticeably weaker than the other QB's.
Take it FWIW.
I think Yates is in an uphill battle to make the roster, but things change when the pads are on...When guys head into pre-season...
I'm not ruling anything out.
Again, not operating under assumed rule.
How much coaching is actually done with the scout team? Are they actually going over their performance in the film room to address mistakes to correct, that kind of thing.
This is how I imagined it would be as well. Don't know if it's true, but your opinion shows me I'm not alone.
When people talk about being a project, this is where I think that QB should be. Focus is more on technique & getting him the reps, working on that technique is probably more of the focus on the scout team. I mean who really cares, if a QB missed a read running the scout team? If it's something easy, like a check down vs forcing a pass, sure. But getting his calls right or lining up the team right, or changing protections... (asking the question, not saying it as fact) how much of that kind of correction is going on?
I think Savage is past the technique portion of his training. His mechanics are not flawless, but very close & natural that he's throwing fairly accurate perfect spirals while he's getting hit & falling backwards. Very much like Aaron Rodgers was when he came out. I think, much farther along than Jay Cutler was when he came out.
I think Savage needs to be learning his offense. Learning the reads, the calls, the formations, the protections. Get that stuff on film, & correct it in the film room.
& Tom Brady wasn't drafted to be the starter. That's where a lot of people think the difference is with Savage. We (I'm one of them) think we got a steal & OB drafted him to start for this team at some time.
Brady won over the Patriots in Practice. Bledsoe had to be injured before he had an opportunity to play on game day & he took advantage of it.
I think the plan is to get Savage ready for game day sometime in the next two years. I don't think that was the thinking when the Patriots drafted Brady.
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NastyNate
I go kerplunk
There were a few quotes from O'Brien recently (not sure exactly when) that I think were from a visit up to Pennsylvania. Basically said he would be on the scout team and would most likely learn for a year there, anything before the first 8 weeks would be wrong to put him out there to fail... Something along those lines, I can't find a link but they were reading off the quotes on the Blitz today.
xtruroyaltyx
Hall of Fame
He will be learning that stuff. He just may not be getting a lot of reps doing it in practice. That's what I was trying to explain....If he's running scout team, he's running another team's offense...not ours...But he can still work on things like throwing motion, footwork...ball placement...ect....
He just won't be actively running our offense much in practice...He'll still watch film with the guys though...get mental reps in the film room...see the mistakes...learn our offense....
Really....The starters take almost all of the practice reps. Even the back up QB doesn't get a lot of actual reps. The back ups are normally watching most of that portion of practice when you work against a scout team.
I hear you. I understand exactly what you're saying. It'll be like Case. Ran the scout team, worked on his technique. But when it came to running our plays, he couldn't execute it very well.
I know he was taking mental reps. I hoped it would all start clicking after a few games. Never seemed like it did.
I like Savage's mechanics. I know I'm not an NFL coach & my analysis is most likely lacking. But I think we're wasting his time on the scout team.
Hervoyel
BUENO!
This is awesome stuff and I hope it happens but if it does then please let it be because he was better than all these guys and not because they all suck so damn much that he was the lesser of "four evils".
Fitz, Case, and TJ are far from world beaters but I think any of the three could be trusted to start an NFL game. If we got a kid in the fourth round who could legitimately beat all of them out for the starting job right out of the gate then that's an epic steal.
Fitz, Case, and TJ are far from world beaters but I think any of the three could be trusted to start an NFL game. If we got a kid in the fourth round who could legitimately beat all of them out for the starting job right out of the gate then that's an epic steal.
drs23
Veteran
Good post Herv. I think between the three vets one of them will get the playbook down eventually. I don't have any fantasies about the team coming out ripping off huge chunks through the air right off the bat because of the admittedly "complex" playbook where QB and receiver have to be in synch for the passing game to be viable. Brady has been in this offence for 10+ years and several times during a given season we still see Brady throwing to one spot and the receiver being in another place because each read their "keys" differently. You know, when we see Tommy throw one of his little hissy tantrums because of course, he can never be wrong.
There will be times our QBs and receivers will be on different pages, hell, different books wouldn't surprise me until they can build that "thinking the same" mentality. Who knows how long that will take? I hope I'm wrong but I can see it taking the better part of the season, if not into the next.
As to the bolded. The mid to late round QB very seldom pans out. It would be Houston Texans nirvana if that is eventually what unfolds for Tom Savage and the Texans. This kid has a rocket launcher for an arm. I could sit and watch those 40 yard outside the hash lasers all day long and then hit rewind. If I've read and retained the observations/comments referencing what he needs to work on are a few minor mechanical flaws and the mental aspect. As has been discussed regarding any QB, those things can be "fixed". I don't know how deeply ingrained his mechanical deficiencies are but O'Brien is supposed to be one of the best at bringing out the best in young guys.I also know from personal experience that retraining muscle memory can be a long term proposition. In the heat of battle the old memory seems to take over. Here's to hoping it's true and he's successful here. That leaves the part between the ears which according to many folks who know much more than I is the most difficult and what often causes many a Tarzan QB to end up playing like a Jane QB.
If TS does end up being "coachable" and stays "in the playbook" learning to be a "good team mate" how long do the learned folks here expect it to take for QB Savage to correct his flaws that seem to be responsible for his scattergun accuracy and his being able to execute the playbook?
Playoffs
Hall of Fame
PHILLYTEXANFAN
Saddle Up Partner
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1qazvigN800
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cr0BljPKksM
These made me SOLD on Savage.. Ooh yeah
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cr0BljPKksM
These made me SOLD on Savage.. Ooh yeah
I thought these would be about Tom Savage.
These are from some dude named Mario Poffo.
OH YEAH!!!
Couldn't help myself.
DX-TEX
#TomSavageDontCare
I want Savage to succeed so bad just to see the 100's of Macho Man impersonators in the stands on Sundays.
Playoffs
Hall of Fame
QB Savage on making reps count
Gotta like a QB who's sticking with his "terrible black" 2007 Chevy Malibu college car.
[IMGwidthsize=400]http://static.cargurus.com/images/site/2007/06/20/2007_chevrolet_malibu-pic-28714.png[/IMG]
Gotta like a QB who's sticking with his "terrible black" 2007 Chevy Malibu college car.
[IMGwidthsize=400]http://static.cargurus.com/images/site/2007/06/20/2007_chevrolet_malibu-pic-28714.png[/IMG]
Marshall
Not pretty, but ALIVE!
Wait....
A BRAVES ballcap!?!
Cut him!!
That's funny, my college car looked much worse... but I wasn't a poor athlete... just a working stiff.
Playoffs
Hall of Fame
Being reported that Savage did not know he would be going in so early in the game...
And he looked it with a deer-in-the-headlights expression. This one will need time to marinate before he's ready for the "big grill", IMO. Not unexpected with his history and 4th/5th draft slot. Drops his eyes when he moves in the pocket... gotta fix that.
Brian T Smith @ChronBrianSmith
And he looked it with a deer-in-the-headlights expression. This one will need time to marinate before he's ready for the "big grill", IMO. Not unexpected with his history and 4th/5th draft slot. Drops his eyes when he moves in the pocket... gotta fix that.
xtruroyaltyx
Hall of Fame
I don't know what to make of savage other than right now he doesn't seem good enough.
Well, pretty much the same as you'd think of him before. A QB that has all the tools but isn't fast enough through his reads and lacks eye discipline and pocket awareness. It was clear from the get go that he was a project. He didn't play a lot of football before and he never played longer than 1 year in the same system. He needs time to get comfortable - when he got comfortable in Pittsburgh he played some great ball.
This is a typical: Give me the QB with all the tools and I will teach him the rest - guy. The opposite from a guy like Bridgewater, the guy that has shown that he can play within his limitations (size, armstrength, frame), but that can't improve on his limitations.
xtruroyaltyx
Hall of Fame
What I meant is that I have no feel for how good he'll be.
I didn't mean that I didn't know what he is currently.
speedfreek
All Pro
He played like a rookie QB. I didn't expect much because he's
basically been asked to sink or swim so far.
(and that's why he's had trouble moving the team)
I think next year will be his true litmus test.
If he makes the same second year move that Keenum did under
Gary then there will be a legit competition amongst the QB's
Right now, I think that BoB has to keep all three on the roster.
The o-line is too suspect to imagine that Fitz will be healthy all year
basically been asked to sink or swim so far.
(and that's why he's had trouble moving the team)
I think next year will be his true litmus test.
If he makes the same second year move that Keenum did under
Gary then there will be a legit competition amongst the QB's
Right now, I think that BoB has to keep all three on the roster.
The o-line is too suspect to imagine that Fitz will be healthy all year
Playoffs
Hall of Fame
Yeah, you can't know until he masters the playbook and gets over the jitters to just react. Needs time and coaching up... which should lead to confidence. Would have loved to see a heart rate monitor on him from right when OB said, "Savage, get in there" through his first half playing time.
Soooo if this really is O'Brien's future franchise guy, that means we're ride with Fitzy for this year AND next year??
....or do we go ahead and spend a 1st or 2nd round pick on a QB next draft?
speedfreek
All Pro
Honestly, I think the reason Savage came in second had little to do
with "surprising him" with a game time decision.
I think that BoB looked at the reaction of the fans from the last game,
and decided that winning this one was more important than the
average preseason game.
At the time, it was 7-0 Texans. I believe (though he would never admit
it) that he was keeping Keenum for the end of the game in case the
Texans needed to rally to win -- which is more likely with Case than
Tom at this point.
It didn't end up mattering because the defense and special teams
were so much better this week than last.
I did like the air raid plays with Keenum, Labhart, and EZ. Shows that
BoB isn't as "my way or the highway" as I originally thought..
with "surprising him" with a game time decision.
I think that BoB looked at the reaction of the fans from the last game,
and decided that winning this one was more important than the
average preseason game.
At the time, it was 7-0 Texans. I believe (though he would never admit
it) that he was keeping Keenum for the end of the game in case the
Texans needed to rally to win -- which is more likely with Case than
Tom at this point.
It didn't end up mattering because the defense and special teams
were so much better this week than last.
I did like the air raid plays with Keenum, Labhart, and EZ. Shows that
BoB isn't as "my way or the highway" as I originally thought..
This.
xtruroyaltyx
Hall of Fame
Hard to say right now. Really depends on how this season goes. As everyone knows, what you think you need at the beginning of the year doesn't always turn out to be what you need at the end...And even then, come draft time things change.
But I definitely wouldn't rule out drafting a QB in rd 1 at this point.
Yeah, you can't know until he masters the playbook and gets over the jitters to just react. Needs time and coaching up... which should lead to confidence. Would have loved to see a heart rate monitor on him from right when OB said, "Savage, get in there" through his first half playing time.
You've got some guys who are chomping at the bit to play. They're ultimate competitors & looking to capitalize on any opportunity to prove they should be in the game... playing with the first team... he best at their position.
Savage, instead of being ready to go, was looking to kick back & enjoy some rays through the first half & it showed.
That's the conversation I would be having with Tom Savage. I gave him an opportunity to impress me & he failed. Don't let it happen again.
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