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Penn State Child Molestation Case
- Thread starter srrono
- Start date
This thing is getting more bizarre and sick by the hour.
toronto
Hall of Fame
Guess god still loves the stupid idiots.
"Moral nihilists assert that morality does not inherently exist, and that any established moral values are abstractly contrived." - http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nihilism
I have studied a bit of philosophy in my time. This type of nihilism seemed to me to be a "look how cool-cynical I am" position. It seemed lazy to me too; proponents don't have to prove anything, just demand that others prove competing theories correct.
That's how I feel about the subject in philosophical banter anyway. Moral nihilism as a guiding principle in real life is degenerate.
I suspect those who claim to believe such crap only believe it when they aren't on the receiving end of what they would consider degenerate behavior.
I have studied a bit of philosophy in my time. This type of nihilism seemed to me to be a "look how cool-cynical I am" position. It seemed lazy to me too; proponents don't have to prove anything, just demand that others prove competing theories correct.
That's how I feel about the subject in philosophical banter anyway. Moral nihilism as a guiding principle in real life is degenerate.
I suspect those who claim to believe such crap only believe it when they aren't on the receiving end of what they would consider degenerate behavior.
Honoring Earl 34
Something Witty !
As a society if you can't protect your elderly , women , and children the what does that say ?
Other things I've gathered from this ........
Have we become so enamored with sports that we put that in front of all things ?
It's funny that some folks talk about Sandusky being gay . He wasn't gay he was a pedophile , a child rapist . It doesn't make a guy who rapes a 10 year old girl straight either .
I've read where Sandusky is the most dangerous type of pedophile . The nice guy who goes in and gains confidence in the family or child and then abuses them . It makes me start thinking about my kids and was someone trying to get his foot in the door . That's what stuff like this does it makes you wonder . Having said that , any grown man coming around my house showering my kids with gifts and such would have set off alarms . I've always thought that women are the more pateral ones and have been leery of males who want to get close to other peoples kids .
toronto
Hall of Fame
AP reporting Paterno will retire at the end of the season.
That isn't going to satisfy ANYONE. If he is on the sideline or even present inside the stadium this Saturday then Penn State will have lost any credibility it has left.
They cannot let him stick around another minute, even if he is a supposed god there.
That isn't going to satisfy ANYONE. If he is on the sideline or even present inside the stadium this Saturday then Penn State will have lost any credibility it has left.
They cannot let him stick around another minute, even if he is a supposed god there.
Well, the next question is legally punished by whom? If the NCAA, who gets all in a tizzy if a booster so much as leaves a tip at a dinner table when going to dinner with a player thinks this is OK, I'm gonna hurl. A coach is supposed to be responsible for the actions of his players AND staff. If he can be fined / fired for minor offenses, where in the hell does allowing sodomy of a child fall?
You can't take back what happened to these kids, but you CAN try to make it "right".
Porky
Hall of Fame
I find it hard to believe that anyone can defend JoePa or anyone else involved in these crimes against children. This is reprehensible. It's kind of part of our anything goes culture though where we aren't allowed to make moral judgements about others. Many were defending Vick after he fought and killed dogs because they didn't own dogs, and now we have people saying they basically don't care because they don't have children. Huh?
So now we are only to expect people to do the bare min as required by law and no more? This sort of reminds me of that baby over in China a few weeks ago. I think DB has posted about the little girl that got ran over while people just walked right over and past her. Disgusting. This is just as bad, if not worse.
People in general thouroughly disgust me. I swear one day I am going unabomber mode - I'll just build a shack in the woods and live off the land and shun all communication to the outside world and that way I can be blissfully ignorant of all the evil that takes place - all right under the noses of others who do nothing at all too stop it.
So now we are only to expect people to do the bare min as required by law and no more? This sort of reminds me of that baby over in China a few weeks ago. I think DB has posted about the little girl that got ran over while people just walked right over and past her. Disgusting. This is just as bad, if not worse.
People in general thouroughly disgust me. I swear one day I am going unabomber mode - I'll just build a shack in the woods and live off the land and shun all communication to the outside world and that way I can be blissfully ignorant of all the evil that takes place - all right under the noses of others who do nothing at all too stop it.
Honoring Earl 34
Something Witty !
You know it's pretty bad when folks say " you think Paterno was that naive or focussed on football " . I'm about 50/50 with that being the answer . The other 50 is Sandusky wasn't the only one and this was a dirty little secret .
gary
Hall of Fame
The statement just given by Joe makes me sad, God bless him he gave his heart and soul for that school but the director should go to hell and burn. Joe did not follow the morals of the majority so he is now evil. Look at those who showed up at his home last night to support him good for them.
Porky
Hall of Fame
Gary I love you man - but why the hell are you defending Paterno? Put yourself in the shoes of one of those boys. At best JoePa turned a blind eye to child abuse, and at worst he knowingly let it happen. How can you support a man who would do that just for the sake of retaining the prestige of himself and Penn St?
Honoring Earl 34
Something Witty !
Has nothing to do with morals of the majority . It has to do with priorities and what's right to protect 10 year old boys from a rapist .
If Vinny , DB , GHF , Bill , Thorn , Runner , Porky , and me were standing in a line with shotguns and a rabid pitbull came after you and we all yelled " watch out " is that good enough . If one of us pulled the trigger you wouldn't have gotten mauled . If another had pulled the trigger then that rabid pitbull wouldn't have made it to the park and mauled 5 more kids . Anyone of them could have put a stop to it and didn't .
Having grown up in the Dean Coryl era I remember the devastation and fear he brought . His own accomplice killed him or he would have kept going . Same with Sandusky except Sandusky hasn't killed anyone .
toronto
Hall of Fame
Unless those kids, now adults eventually starting killing themselves or are so ****ed up that they start breaking the law. It never will leave those kids, no matter how hard they try to exorcise the demons. Sandusky has ****ed those kids up for life, and for all we know, they're already a bit dead inside.
Hervoyel
BUENO!
All I'm saying is that I want to know what he knew. We probably will never find out now because the stock answer is going to be "I knew nothing" or at the very least "I knew very little".
I find it possible that he didn't know. This might be one of the few instances where I think there's a chance of that. Paterno was in his mid 70's when this took place if I'm not mistaken. He's 84 now. I don't know enough about the program there to say to what degree he's a figurehead. I also haven't come across any details regarding what McQueary presumably said to him. I saw something yesterday in the news about what he told Paterno differeing from the detailed version he gave the grand jury. How different?
I want to know more before torching Paterno but at the same time I confess I think the story is something I don't want to dig too deeply into. It's disturbing and I'm not being paid to find out who needs some swift justice here. I want justice, I just don't want to see Paterno burned at the stake if he didn't know the details of what happened.
gary
Hall of Fame
Hervoyel
BUENO!
I don't think you know enough to say that. I think it really depends on what he knew and what he was told by McQueary. People keep saying "He HAD to know" but that's a fallicy. It's shocking what people don't know and what people don't notice going on right under their noses and evidence of that happens every day. The guy is in his 80's now (70's then) and I'm not at all shocked by the idea that he didn't know this was happening. Is it that strange to think that an elderly "figurehead type" coach might not know every detail of the program he sits on top of?
I think there is a very valid argument here that if they had a younger coach who was more involved and less of a "living mascot" then possibly that coach would have seen the signs and acted on them. I see Paterno's last decade as one of a program without a head coach at all. A coaching staff yes, a coach? Not so much.
Grams
Veteran
I have been reading about this anb listening to various media opinions.
It just comes down to the facts: they knew what was going on in 1998 - when he "retired".
Why did they let him back in the school property, why did they not notify his orgaization, why did they not investigate more?
In 2002 - why did the guy just not stop the rape, why did he just turn around and walk out? Why did he wait till the next day to tell someone, why did he just not call the police? Why did no one call the police at that time. Why did Paterno wait a day to tell his "superiors"?
And then no one calls the police and the guy is back on the campus and no one notices?
It may not be that Paterno did anything illegal, but it sure was not morally right.
States volumes about the "Integrity" he keeps preaching about.
He does not need to retire at the end of the season, he needs to retire immediately or they need to fire him immediately - along with the assistant coach that just turned his back on the 10 year old boy being raped.
It just comes down to the facts: they knew what was going on in 1998 - when he "retired".
Why did they let him back in the school property, why did they not notify his orgaization, why did they not investigate more?
In 2002 - why did the guy just not stop the rape, why did he just turn around and walk out? Why did he wait till the next day to tell someone, why did he just not call the police? Why did no one call the police at that time. Why did Paterno wait a day to tell his "superiors"?
And then no one calls the police and the guy is back on the campus and no one notices?
It may not be that Paterno did anything illegal, but it sure was not morally right.
States volumes about the "Integrity" he keeps preaching about.
He does not need to retire at the end of the season, he needs to retire immediately or they need to fire him immediately - along with the assistant coach that just turned his back on the 10 year old boy being raped.
Honoring Earl 34
Something Witty !
Oh no doubt that they are scarred for life . The most premitive and basic social structure in the country is a maximum security unit . If you were to release Sandusky in there with no protection , they'd kill him . He would be the most despised out of all the others . What's that tell you ?
This is why they say a coward dies a 1000 deaths because those who did nothing are going to have to see and hear what's believed to be near 20 cases of boys who were raped .
It also stood out to me that what Paterno said he was told was far different from the detailed grand jury testimony. That's a pretty thin thread to hang onto though, given the fact that other investigations that took place should have raised his awareness level.
Am I for burning an innocent man at the stake? No. I'm also not for covering up what happened to protect a guilty man.
As you say, we need to let this play out. I find it likely that many, many people share culpability in the end. Initial evidence is damning and will be hard to counter.
Honoring Earl 34
Something Witty !
I'd bet dollars to donuts that Paterno knew and that's why Sandusky was told he wouldn't be head coach and needed to retire .
Hervoyel
BUENO!
I would absolutely agree that he should retire right now. I think that's inevitable and the sooner he does it (even if every word he's said is true and he did not know the seriousness of the allegations) the better off he will be and the quicker this will be resolved. Sandusky is definitely going down. The administrators who covered up for him are going down. Paterno needs to get out of the way. Who he is and the position he's in there is taking away from the process that needs to happen. He's got his story and he's sticking to it. That's fine, step aside and let justice be served to the people who have it coming.
Joe paterno's current statement
http://www.canada.com/Statement+Pat...y+Lions+2011/5681219/story.html#ixzz1dDAHVgaw
STATE COLLEGE, Pa. - I am absolutely devastated by the developments in this case. I grieve for the children and their families, and I pray for their comfort and relief.
I have come to work every day for the last 61 years with one clear goal in mind: To serve the best interests of this university and the young men who have been entrusted to my care. I have the same goal today.
That's why I have decided to announce my retirement effective at the end of this season. At this moment the Board of Trustees should not spend a single minute discussing my status. They have far more important matters to address. I want to make this as easy for them as I possibly can.
This is a tragedy. It is one of the great sorrows of my life. With the benefit of hindsight, I wish I had done more.
My goals now are to keep my commitments to my players and staff and finish the season with dignity and determination. And then I will spend the rest of my life doing everything I can to help this University.
http://www.canada.com/Statement+Pat...y+Lions+2011/5681219/story.html#ixzz1dDAHVgaw
STATE COLLEGE, Pa. - I am absolutely devastated by the developments in this case. I grieve for the children and their families, and I pray for their comfort and relief.
I have come to work every day for the last 61 years with one clear goal in mind: To serve the best interests of this university and the young men who have been entrusted to my care. I have the same goal today.
That's why I have decided to announce my retirement effective at the end of this season. At this moment the Board of Trustees should not spend a single minute discussing my status. They have far more important matters to address. I want to make this as easy for them as I possibly can.
This is a tragedy. It is one of the great sorrows of my life. With the benefit of hindsight, I wish I had done more.
My goals now are to keep my commitments to my players and staff and finish the season with dignity and determination. And then I will spend the rest of my life doing everything I can to help this University.
Hervoyel
BUENO!
That's really all I'm saying. It needs to play out. People need to testify and the story needs to be uncovered.
I don't know how he's treated there. I mean, I know Paterno "walks on water" like coaches at other huge programs. Bear Bryant, Eddie Robinson, etc; but I don't know to what degree he is at 75 (then) or 84 (now) a figurehead. Does everybody keep ugly details from JoePa? Is he a stuffed bear they trot out or is he active in running the program? I just don't know that so I'm saying if he's detached from the details then I could see him being unaware that it was happening.
I'm just saying hold up on the firing squad until we know what's happened and who did/knew/said/hid what.
toronto
Hall of Fame
That statement is laughable - the school is right now the focus point, and his department is responsible for the most revenue, and all of this is effected and to a degree paralyzed by his presence.
Worse is what he doesn't realize what's coming - he's likely going to be named in class action lawsuits. Its not going away Joe, unless you pass away, then your kids get to deal with your mess.
gary
Hall of Fame
He is old and I have personally seen where older folks in the work place just there doing their thing in the background without knowing what is going on from within. I would not doubt that at all in this case. Joe has been leagally cleared here and yet people just want to rag on him I almost want to send him a letter of support myself. What we have here is the public becoming morally tied to the victims and not looking at this story as an outsider.
Grams
Veteran
I am looking at this story as an outsider. He did what he legally should have done by notifying his superiors. But he also did not notify the police. He should have known the school did not notify the police when no one came to talk to him from the police dept or the state police or even the campus police.
For the "Integrity" of the school and himself he should have called the police when he was told of the incident. For a man with supposedly much integrity, he did not do what a man should have done. As a result other boys were abused.
I fault the grad-assistant coach even more as he just turned his back and did not stop it or call the police either.
Both men knew what was going on and neither went out of their way to stop it. That to me is the kicker.
eriadoc
Texan-American
If JoePa didn't know, it's because he didn't want to know. If any moral human being is informed of child abuse to this level, not only do they have a responsibility to notify the authorities, they damn well ought to have the moral fortitude to follow up on it and find out what the result was. How is the kid? How is the accused? What was the evidence? If it's his coach perpetrating, should he look to replace him? Hell, you get one reporter or TV personality saying some crazy **** and all his superiors want him fired, even if he doesn't directly work for them (Hank Williams, anyone?). But JoePa just puts in a call to his AD and washes his hands of the matter? That's complete bullshit.
And the fact that the man is 84 doesn't exonerate him one bit, in my eyes. It makes him even more culpable, because at age 84, you damn well know how the world works and how even people you think you know are capable of dastardly ****.
JoePa didn't know because he chose not to know.
Hervoyel
BUENO!
And you know this because you want to know it. That wraps up nicely.
Are you a PSU fan?
I can't place my hand on the link (got to work), but the indications are that the GA and his Dad were graphic in describing the situation to Joe Pa. This very he said versus he said, as such it is always hard if not impossible to prove.
toronto
Hall of Fame
Being old is a ridiculous excuse - if anything that lends to the question why the hell an 84 year old is running a top Division 1 program.
9 years ago he made a morally bankrupt choice. Did he break the law? No. Did he break laws of simple and basic decency? Hell yes.
I don't want to rag on him. I simply want him gone. Its Sandusky and the administration that chose to cover this all up that I want behind bars.
PsychoLove
Church Of FSM
What the hell you want, video? Anal semen samples? Be a live witness?
Isn't 20 victims enough right now?
Hervoyel
BUENO!
I understand. Everything I've seen has said otherwise. Like I said in one of my first posts in this thread it's going to be nearly impossible to know for certain what was said and what Paterno knew is the single most important thing about this as far as his actions are concerned.
I want him gone too and think waiting until the end of the year is a mistake. The sooner he steps down the sooner they can tear it all down and start over and they're going to have to start over no matter what happened.
I don't think being old is a ridiculous excuse though. I think it's the only perfectly plausible excuse on the table. Being an old "legend" there puts him in a position where people don't want to tell him bad news. People don't want to upset him. People are hesitant to bring things like this to him. People insulate and protect figures like that.
Sometimes.
Maybe he did screw up. He's saying as much now and saying that he wishes he'd pursued it further. I just don't think it's inconcievable that Paterno didn't get the full story. It's possible. That's all I'm saying. Doesn't change the fact that now it's a moot point and he needs to step down.
Hervoyel
BUENO!
You're talking about this with emotion and I'm being reasonable. If you can find me 20 victims that Joe Paterno personally sodomized then I'm going to concede the point but Sandusky is the rapist pedophile and Paterno is the football coach who reported what he was told to his superior.
IF he was told that Sandusky was sodomizing a 10 year old in no uncertain terms then the only appropriate response was "Call the police right now".
If McQueary and his father beat around the bush and found a way to say just enough to clear their conscience (How you do that after you saw a kid being molested and did nothing I don't know) and left him with a "What are they talking about, I'm going to call the AD and get him to look into it" idea then maybe that was the appropriate response.
You don't know what he was or wasn't told. I don't either. All I'm saying is that before you crucify the guy (and he may have that coming to him) you might want to have an idea what he knew.
Suggesting that we take the time to find out all the facts before wiping this guy out is not the same thing as demanding that we get a ten year old out and sodomize him front of JoePa to see if he understands the specifics of the act. Take your moral outrage and your slowly forming straw-man argument (not inclined to wait around to be lumped in with the folks at Penn State thank you) somewhere else. I've been perfectly clear about this.
cuppacoffee
Resident Grouch
I am as disgusted as the next person about what happened at Penn State.
Reading this thread gives me visions of a lynch mob in an old western movie.
Its easy to see how vigilante groups were formed back in the day.
Just an observation, not a judgment call.
PsychoLove
Church Of FSM
If JoePa runs out to the field against Nebraska this weekend, it will be a shame. We are not talking about 1 or 2 kids here. We are talking about at least 20. If JoePa had gone to the police, many kids would have normal lives today. I hope you have read the transcript.
Honoring Earl 34
Something Witty !
I am as disgusted as the next person about what happened at Penn State.
Reading this thread gives me visions of a lynch mob in an old western movie.
Its easy to see how vigilante groups were formed back in the day.
Just an observation, not a judgment call.
So you want a pitchfork or an axe ?
Grams
Veteran
The more I read about this, the more angry I become.
Everyone wants to crucify Paterno - rightly so. He needs to retire immediately.
But almost everyone is forgetting that a grown man saw the rape in the showers and all he did was turn his back on the 10 year old boy and walk back to his office and call his Dad instead of the police. Then waited till the next day to call Paterno who also waited a day to call the AD.
Why aren't more calling for his resignation also.
They talk about integrity and honor at Penn State. But there is none. All each and everyone of them were doing was trying to protect the University from a scandal. It would have been over and done with, if they had just called the police at that time. They would have been thought of as heros to stop this back in 2002.
In this day and age, it will be a long long time before the dust settles. JoePa now has a not so stellar reputation. The school and it leaders will be looked upon as men trying to save their reputations instead of trying to save young boys from a sexual predator.
I still cannot understand how a grown man can turn his back and walk away from a young boy being sodomized.
Everyone wants to crucify Paterno - rightly so. He needs to retire immediately.
But almost everyone is forgetting that a grown man saw the rape in the showers and all he did was turn his back on the 10 year old boy and walk back to his office and call his Dad instead of the police. Then waited till the next day to call Paterno who also waited a day to call the AD.
Why aren't more calling for his resignation also.
They talk about integrity and honor at Penn State. But there is none. All each and everyone of them were doing was trying to protect the University from a scandal. It would have been over and done with, if they had just called the police at that time. They would have been thought of as heros to stop this back in 2002.
In this day and age, it will be a long long time before the dust settles. JoePa now has a not so stellar reputation. The school and it leaders will be looked upon as men trying to save their reputations instead of trying to save young boys from a sexual predator.
I still cannot understand how a grown man can turn his back and walk away from a young boy being sodomized.
Honoring Earl 34
Something Witty !
That's the strange part about being bigger than the rules . Not just any rules but rules of decency and what's moral . Was he afraid that by ratting on or bashing Sandusky upside the head he was going to get in trouble ?
drewmar74
disgruntled
I feel terrible for the players. They had nothing to do with this. Their next game is Senior Day. That's just terrible for them that all of this will mar their day. Plus, with all of the distractions. They are still going for a Big Ten Championship. It's quite unfortunate for them.
utahmark
markbeth
For anyone that thinks that Joe should be left alone because he may not of done anything wrong by legal standards I have to say, Who gives a ****. This country is falling apart because 90% of the people in power of this country will do everything they can to abuse and work their way around every loop hole they can find, within our legal system, to either stay in power or get more power. Most sane people will put morals ahead of the law everytime and if your not one of those people then you might want to take another look at yourself.
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eriadoc
Texan-American
Likewise. I keep telling myself I'll turn off the news and not click this thread.
I'm trying not to come into this thread, much less post, but that was one of the first things that came to mind for me. If I were that 28 year old grad assistant and I walked in on that, there would be blood on the shower floor. I'd call the cops after and let them sort it out afterward, but there would have been some tossing around of a pedophile rapist.
Everyone involved in this case failed and is a disgustingly immoral human being that deserves to die a slow, painful, medieval death. That's about as nicely as I can put it.
Honoring Earl 34
Something Witty !
Yep ... there's no way they can't be distracted or feel like crawling under a rock .
Honoring Earl 34
Something Witty !
Vinny
shiny happy fan
A graduate assistant testifies to a Grand Jury that he heard "rythmic slapping noises" in the shower and saw Sandusky with a 10 year old kid up against the wall in a manner that cops frisk perps and he was being raped. He immediately called his Father and THEY BOTH went to Paterno's house for a meeting. If you are to believe Paterno I'm not sure you are using logic. Let's say he just stopped their story short and told them "I don't want to hear the details, but I'll pass on your allegation to my boss". Logic states that Paterno is a man of deep integrity and is a cultural institution in a powerful University. Why would Paterno do this? He wouldn't. Paterno would ask a few questions if they beat around the bush. If they told him that there was a 10 year old kid in the shower with his Coach, you don't think that he'd want to know everything that happened? Paterno didn't get to be a great head coach by skipping over the main details of any problem to be solved.
It's a massive, gigantic leap of logic to think Paterno didn't know based on the testimony to a grand jury by all the parties. Paterno's ability to hide behind a loophole in a poorly written law that helps large corporations and institutions is another sad, sad issue in itself. I mean why is the law crafted so that anyone in any institution can just say, "I told my boss" and that exonerates him from his duty to protect ten year old children? What kind of crap law is this? All it does is help people pass the buck. I don't remember what the law is called but it needs to be renamed the "pass the buck" law. Its friggin' disturbing that so many stupid people write our laws and "protect" our children with yet more servings of corporate helper.
Last point, I think it is a stretch to believe that a man of deep integrity, a leader of Men, a man who has built a life on hard work and fairness would not wonder why nobody called the police after he reported this to his "boss". If you stretch your logic enough you can believe that Joe Paterno wasn't told the entire truth in that meeting at his house so many years ago.
If you haven't read this, you don't know anything. Not directing that at you herv...just to those who haven't read the Grand Jury's findings. Keep in mind, that was 11 months ago and Sandusky was on JoePa's campus as short a period as two weeks ago.
Honoring Earl 34
Something Witty !
The scary part is what was Sandusky's leverage to come and go after all that ?
eriadoc
Texan-American
Like I said above, Paterno either knew or he did his damn dead level best to avoid knowing. Either way, it's willful negligence and he enabled Sandusky. As you noted, the grand jury presentment was almost a year ago, yet Sandusky was still hanging around.