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My (angry) letter to Laremy Tunsil

Porky said:
Question Doc. Will that groin pull slowly get better while playing or is this going to be a persistent issue the entire season?
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Even a Grade 1 adductor tear will take 1 to 2 weeks of rest before a person can even return to exercise, let alone practice. Scruggs returned to play in week 3 only 10 days following his injury...............and he played like it. These type of soft tissue injuries can recur in ~20-25% of cases..........and more if not handled appropriately.
 
thunderkyss said:
Correct. I propose we watch our OL & see if our protection problems are due to everyone else waiting until the ball is snapped. We've got a lot of "talent" on this OL & it doesn't make sense Cj is getting hit as often as he's been getting hit.

Tunsil's false starts is not why Cj is getting hit. A couple of years ago someone posted a video showing Tunsil's get off was uncanny fast because of his timing. & the false starts are most likely due to the ball not being snapped when it's supposed to be snapped.

Again, I'm not saying that is the problem but we're too talented up front to give up the pressure we're giving up.
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Talent is subjective to the person, and I’ve been quietly skeptical of this offensive line even before the 2023 season.

IMO, Tunsil's false starts seem to stem from a lack of concentration rather than a fundamental skill issue. Every offensive lineman faces the pressures of snap cadence like verbal cues, quarterback movements (claps and leg lifts), audibles, defensive pre-snap movements and crowd noise. Tunsil appears to struggle with these distractions more than his peers. From 2016 to 2023 (excluding 2021, when he played only five games), he has led his teams in false starts for 5 out of 7 seasons. Again to me, this pattern raises questions about his periodic lapse in focus, even as I acknowledge the complexities of the OL especially LT. The illegal formation should be a one off, if you get called for it then adjust accordingly...whether it's right or wrong you can't keep doing it and taking that chance. I know we all wanted to hear him say, "it's on me" and even it isn't then handle that internally...Tunsil might not be that type of dude.
 
Carr Bombed said:
You sound like my highschool guidance counselor.. it's up to him to clean up those mistakes that he should of made 4 years ago..
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High school counselors tend not to give up on people that others do. Problem with Tunsil and others including some on this board, he continues to look at others for his mistakes and I have said that before. Don't whine about what others or you have gotten away with in the past. Know the rules and play within them. How many times have we had folks on this MB say that if you ain't cheating you ain't trying?
 
KoolAid Sipper said:
Talent is subjective to the person, and I’ve been quietly skeptical of this offensive line even before the 2023 season.

IMO, Tunsil's false starts seem to stem from a lack of concentration rather than a fundamental skill issue. Every offensive lineman faces the pressures of snap cadence like verbal cues, quarterback movements (claps and leg lifts), audibles, defensive pre-snap movements and crowd noise. Tunsil appears to struggle with these distractions more than his peers. From 2016 to 2023 (excluding 2021, when he played only five games), he has led his teams in false starts for 5 out of 7 seasons. Again to me, this pattern raises questions about his periodic lapse in focus, even as I acknowledge the complexities of the OL especially LT. The illegal formation should be a one off, if you get called for it then adjust accordingly...whether it's right or wrong you can't keep doing it and taking that chance. I know we all wanted to hear him say, "it's on me" and even it isn't then handle that internally...Tunsil might not be that type of dude.
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What he says is simply the cherry on top, reinforcing how little he seems to care. I am upset first and foremost by how he is still getting the same stupid penalties. He ain’t a rookie anymore.
 
KoolAid Sipper said:
Talent is subjective to the person, and I’ve been quietly skeptical of this offensive line even before the 2023 season.

IMO, Tunsil's false starts seem to stem from a lack of concentration rather than a fundamental skill issue. Every offensive lineman faces the pressures of snap cadence like verbal cues, quarterback movements (claps and leg lifts), audibles, defensive pre-snap movements and crowd noise. Tunsil appears to struggle with these distractions more than his peers. From 2016 to 2023 (excluding 2021, when he played only five games), he has led his teams in false starts for 5 out of 7 seasons. Again to me, this pattern raises questions about his periodic lapse in focus, even as I acknowledge the complexities of the OL especially LT. The illegal formation should be a one off, if you get called for it then adjust accordingly...whether it's right or wrong you can't keep doing it and taking that chance. I know we all wanted to hear him say, "it's on me" and even it isn't then handle that internally...Tunsil might not be that type of dude.
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I would say a lack of focus on the snap count due to focusing on the opponent. When watching LT, he is clearly focusing on who he's supposed to block. I've noticed it both at home and on the road. He could probably be called for FSs a lot more. I find myself surprised he wasn't called for one much more often than when he is.
 
Well I was going to start with Tunsil, then Green said, hold my beer…..then Mason and Howard were standing there trying to hand me their beers…..I sternly stated, put those ducking beers down and get your arses out there and legally spark up someone’s arse on the other side of the ball. Funny, the message didn’t sink in until the final drive!!!!
 
I’ve done a fair bit of research on this since the Vikes game. What I’ve found is that O-linemen year in and out usually occupy most of the top 10 spots in the league when it comes to penalties. And most of those guys are tackles drawing false start penalties. That doesn’t purport to change this year and will likely INCREASE due to the league’s focus on the illegal formation stuff…….. which also disproportionately puts even more focus on the guys of the edge of the o-line.

I’m laughing tho at those talking about he needs to “watch” the ball being snapped and then turning back outside to try to block. They obviously don’t understand how extremely difficult it is to actually see the ball from out at the tackle position let alone be able to switch your focus to be able to block those edge guys coming 100 mph at you. Tackles have ALWAYS worked off of the timing of the snap and “being on the same page” with the center b/c you just can’t hear or see much way out there in loud stadiums…Yes his false starts are annoying and back breaking at times, but most of these guys are doing what he does..that is trying to get a jump on the ball being snapped by slowly and subtly “rocking” back out of your stance a smidge before the ball is snapped. I’ve seen all different types of guys from different teams do that.

That’s the reason for the center’s head bob thingy that they do before the snap..timing…& Something’s off with our o-line’s timing. So when LT talks about this timing thing, he’s not trying to “not take accountability” he’s actually giving y’all insights that y’all are too damn emotional to weigh in on when trying to come down on just him….which after yesterday’s game you should’ve garnered that the timing thing is an O-line/offense issue as a whole & it’s affecting everybody down there whose not right over the ball..which is basically just Scruggs..who hasn’t been flagged for anything in these games except for his head bob thingy in the Vikes game. My guess is Scruggs and to a lesser extent CJ are a bit inconsistent in how they’re doing the snap as every o-linemen but Scruggs got flagged for something yesterday.

But for the record, Tunsil has only ended the season top 5 or 10 in penalties drawn once since being here.
 
Mr teX said:
But for the record, Tunsil has only ended the season top 5 or 10 in penalties drawn once since being here.
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Need a source for this. Also the context is severely lacking. What is this in comparison to, all players? How does he compare with other left tackles? Specifically, how does he compare with top performing LTs since that's what we are paying him to be?
 
chenjy9 said:
Need a source for this. Also the context is severely lacking. What is this in comparison to, all players? How does he compare with other left tackles? Specifically, how does he compare with top performing LTs since that's what we are paying him to be?
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Tunsil is off to a very bad start this year but normally he is not in the top 5 in penalties drawn. And most of his are false starts and not the more damaging holding calls. You can see that here
 
chenjy9 said:
Need a source for this. Also the context is severely lacking. What is this in comparison to, all players? How does he compare with other left tackles? Specifically, how does he compare with top performing LTs since that's what we are paying him to be?
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JB said:
Tunsil is off to a very bad start this year but normally he is not in the top 5 in penalties drawn. And most of his are false starts and not the more damaging holding calls. You can see that here
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thanks JB. You can also find the data here.

“context”? And how much we’re “paying” him & who he’s In “comparison” to…all irrelevant for a myriad of reasons.
 
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JB said:
Tunsil is off to a very bad start this year but normally he is not in the top 5 in penalties drawn. And most of his are false starts and not the more damaging holding calls. You can see that here
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If we actually filter it down to OTs, Tunsil is #4 with 11 penalties. If we only look at false starts, he is actually tied at #2 with 7.

If we look at the top 5 paid LTs in 2023, we get the following:
  • Player Penalty False Start
  • Tristan Wirfs 5 5
  • Penei Sewell 6 2
  • Christian Darrisaw 5 4
  • Laremy Tunsil 11 8
  • Andrew Thomas 1 1
If we look at PFF's top 5 graded LTs in 2023, we get the following:
  • Player Penalty False Start
  • PENEI SEWELL 6 2
  • TRENT WILLIAMS 10 3
  • JORDAN MAILATA 8 4
  • TYRON SMITH 3 1
  • TRISTAN WIRFS 5 5
When compared with his actual OT peers last season, Tunsil was definitely in Top 5 for both false starts and overall penalties. When compared with his highest paid or "top performing" peers, the amount of penalties become even more lopsided, with only Trent Williams and maybe Jordan Mailata coming close to his numbers.
 
Mr teX said:
I’ve done a fair bit of research on this since the Vikes game. What I’ve found is that O-linemen year in and out usually occupy most of the top 10 spots in the league when it comes to penalties. And most of those guys are tackles drawing false start penalties. That doesn’t purport to change this year and will likely INCREASE due to the league’s focus on the illegal formation stuff…….. which also disproportionately puts even more focus on the guys of the edge of the o-line.

I’m laughing tho at those talking about he needs to “watch” the ball being snapped and then turning back outside to try to block. They obviously don’t understand how extremely difficult it is to actually see the ball from out at the tackle position let alone be able to switch your focus to be able to block those edge guys coming 100 mph at you. Tackles have ALWAYS worked off of the timing of the snap and “being on the same page” with the center b/c you just can’t hear or see much way out there in loud stadiums…Yes his false starts are annoying and back breaking at times, but most of these guys are doing what he does..that is trying to get a jump on the ball being snapped by slowly and subtly “rocking” back out of your stance a smidge before the ball is snapped. I’ve seen all different types of guys from different teams do that.

That’s the reason for the center’s head bob thingy that they do before the snap..timing…& Something’s off with our o-line’s timing. So when LT talks about this timing thing, he’s not trying to “not take accountability” he’s actually giving y’all insights that y’all are too damn emotional to weigh in on when trying to come down on just him….which after yesterday’s game you should’ve garnered that the timing thing is an O-line/offense issue as a whole & it’s affecting everybody down there whose not right over the ball..which is basically just Scruggs..who hasn’t been flagged for anything in these games except for his head bob thingy in the Vikes game. My guess is Scruggs and to a lesser extent CJ are a bit inconsistent in how they’re doing the snap as every o-linemen but Scruggs got flagged for something yesterday.

But for the record, Tunsil has only ended the season top 5 or 10 in penalties drawn once since being here.
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Exactly, & how many Centers did we use last year? & Scruggs was in against the Colts, out against the Bears, in against the Vikings & the Vikings were loud & good on defense.
 
Mr teX said:
thanks JB. You can also find the data here.

“context”? And how much we’re “paying” him & who he’s In “comparison” to…all irrelevant for a myriad of reasons.
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Yeah... I STRONGLY disagree those comparisons are irrelevant. If we are calling him a top performing and top paid LT, we absolutely should be comparing him to his actual positional peers.
 
chenjy9 said:
If we look at PFF's top 5 graded LTs in 2023, we get the following:
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Forget PFF. Buncha amateurs like you and me. Their grading is all subjective and depends on which amateur is watching which game and guessing what was supposed to happen
 
chenjy9 said:
Yeah... I STRONGLY disagree those comparisons are irrelevant. If we are calling him a top performing and top paid LT, we absolutely should be comparing him to his actual positional peers.
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And he is having a very bad year so far THIS year
 
chenjy9 said:
If we actually filter it down to OTs, Tunsil is #4 with 11 penalties. If we only look at false starts, he is actually tied at #2 with 7.

If we look at the top 5 paid LTs in 2023, we get the following:
  • Player Penalty False Start
  • Tristan Wirfs 5 5
  • Penei Sewell 6 2
  • Christian Darrisaw 5 4
  • Laremy Tunsil 11 8
  • Andrew Thomas 1 1
If we look at PFF's top 5 graded LTs in 2023, we get the following:
  • Player Penalty False Start
  • PENEI SEWELL 6 2
  • TRENT WILLIAMS 10 3
  • JORDAN MAILATA 8 4
  • TYRON SMITH 3 1
  • TRISTAN WIRFS 5 5
When compared with his actual OT peers last season, Tunsil was definitely in Top 5 for both false starts and overall penalties. When compared with his highest paid or "top performing" peers, the amount of penalties become even more lopsided, with only Trent Williams and maybe Jordan Mailata coming close to his numbers.
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What is the obsession with how much he’s being paid? Y’all are acting like this guy is Kendall Lamm bad…or it’s your money.

And again, just based on the sheer number of penalties the o-line drew yesterday, it appears this is more of an o-line timing issue more than anything else. Kenyon Green and Shaq Mason both had 3 penalties drawn yesterday that did as much if not more damage to drives. Where’s their “angry letter” thread at?
 
chenjy9 said:
Yeah... I STRONGLY disagree those comparisons are irrelevant. If we are calling him a top performing and top paid LT, we absolutely should be comparing him to his actual positional peers.
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Nobody considers him a top LT with any bearing on false start penalties. He's not voted to probowls because of false starts.

I haven't looked but I bet false start penalties are not among his performance based compestion criteria.

Everyone agrees the need to stop. But nobody uses false starts to say, "this guy is a top OT in the league & that guy is not."
 
Mr teX said:
What is the obsession with how much he’s being paid? Y’all are acting like this guy is Kendall Lamm bad…or it’s your money.

And again, just based on the sheer number of penalties the o-line drew yesterday, it appears this is more of an o-line timing issue more than anything else. Kenyon Green and Shaq Mason both had 3 penalties drawn yesterday that did as much if not more damage to drives. Where’s their “angry letter” thread at?
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How much he is being paid directly takes away from how much we can invest in other positions, why wouldn't we as fans of the team care? Just because the money isn't coming out of our pockets doesn't mean we can't care about how it's being used as far as salaries are concerned.

Kenyon Green and Shaq Mason are to top earning or top performing players at their positions. LT is a top paid player and is supposedly a top performer, so why shouldn't we hold him
 
thunderkyss said:
Nobody considers him a top LT with any bearing on false start penalties. He's not voted to probowls because of false starts.

I haven't looked but I bet false start penalties are not among his performance based compestion criteria.

Everyone agrees the need to stop. But nobody uses false starts to say, "this guy is a top OT in the league & that guy is not."
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Which is why false starts is after penalties. If penalties are NOT part of performance metrics, they certainly should be.
 
thunderkyss said:
Nobody considers him a top LT with any bearing on false start penalties. He's not voted to probowls because of false starts.

I haven't looked but I bet false start penalties are not among his performance based compestion criteria.

Everyone agrees the need to stop. But nobody uses false starts to say, "this guy is a top OT in the league & that guy is not."
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Exactly. I guess Pat Surtain II sucks & the broncos should consider trading the all pro too b/c as of now he’s drawn the 2nd most penalties in the league behind Tunsil….3 for PI. Oh look, he’s also drawn the most for all db’s too….oh, and he’s being paid a ton of money too!…c’mon man.
 
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Something to think about... how many of his false starts are when Stroud is in the shotgun vs under center? Is Scruggs delaying the snap when in shotgun just a hair to make sure he has an accurate snap? I think so
 
JB said:
Something to think about... how many of his false starts are when Stroud is in the shotgun vs under center? Is Scruggs delaying the snap when in shotgun just a hair to make sure he has an accurate snap? I think so
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Again, his false starts have been a thing throughout his career. He's had different QBs and Centers; the issue is on him.
 
chenjy9 said:
How much he is being paid directly takes away from how much we can invest in other positions, why wouldn't we as fans of the team care? Just because the money isn't coming out of our pockets doesn't mean we can't care about how it's being used as far as salaries are concerned.

Kenyon Green and Shaq Mason are to top earning or top performing players at their positions. LT is a top paid player and is supposedly a top performer, so why shouldn't we hold him
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I’m not saying you shouldn’t care. we just haven’t entered that territory and frankly we’re not close to b/c Even with the penalties, he’s STILL been amongst the best at his position as voted on by the media in both pro bowl selections AND by his peers in that top 100 players in the league thingy. He’s also been voted a captain by his teammates. That right there should tell you something….but certain fans are gonna fan and try to find something to complain about and take extreme stances. Do you buddy.
 
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Mr teX said:
I’m not saying you shouldn’t care. we just haven’t entered that territory and frankly we’re not close to b/c Even with the penalties, he’s STILL been amongst the best at his position as voted on by the media in both pro bowl selections AND by his peers in that top 100 players in the league thingy. He’s also been voted a captain by his teammates. That right there should tell you something….but certain fans are gonna fan and try to find something to complain about and take extreme stances. Do you buddy.
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I hardly think that being very concerned about a critical positional player with a history of getting penalties somehow escalating that this season as an "extreme stance". Like you said though, do you buddy.
 
chenjy9 said:
Again, his false starts have been a thing throughout his career. He's had different QBs and Centers; the issue is on him.
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He had 1 more penalty than the player widely considered to be the best OT in football Trent Williams. And fewer holds. And how many of what quality have been the centers and OL coaches since he's been here in Houston? He didn't draw the flags when he was in Miami
 
chenjy9 said:
I hardly think that being very concerned about a critical positional player with a history of getting penalties somehow escalating that this season as an "extreme stance". Like you said though, do you buddy.
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It is an extreme stance b/c think about what you’re saying here. You guys want to consider trading/getting rid of a PRO BOWL LT. No team does that…except us that is. Remember the last time we did some stupid shot like that? when we traded Duane Brown b/c no one in the FO and on here thought that we should pay him b/c they let their feelings get in the way b/c they didn’t like the way he held out during the season. Yeah, well how’d that work out for us? We were running thru LT’s like toilet paper & didn’t come close to recovering at that position until we traded for Tunsil.

You’ve been given a few probable reasons for why that has “escalated”..u just reject them, b/c it doesn’t fit your narrative.

Blake Fisher got in for a couple of series yesterday. You saw what he looked like; not great. To be expected as a rook.
 
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Mr teX said:
Blake Fisher got in for a couple of series yesterday. You saw what he looked like; not great. To be expected as a rook.
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I saw that too. I don’t want him blocking for Cj anymore than he has to. Let him continue to develop.

Remember the rookie LT OB drafted that underperformed and later was traded away? Who was that? I always get him confused with Tytus.
 
TexansBull said:
Not me. Tunsil can learn to be more disciplined and not get the penalties.
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