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JaDeveon Clowney

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mussop

Hall of Fame
The Texans need to go into this draft with the attitude that Clowney is not on the roster. If he's able to play, then bonus. Otherwise, act like he's not going to play and plan accordingly.
This is what I have been saying all along. I'll add to it. They should go into this draft as if Nix is not on the roster either. I understand it's two totally different situations but really what has Nix done to make anyone think he can contribute to this team? According to OB he hasn't even had a single good practice.

Now back to Clowney. Even if he returns One bad hit on that knee, one good chop block by a RB, one bad landing on that crappy field and we are right back at square one. If he stays healthy there are worse things than having two top flight outside pass rushers flanking arguably the best DL in the history of the NFL.
 

banned1976

Fire Bill O’Brien, maybe?
I thought they had to declare such in March.
Just checked it out. The Texans have until May 3rd to pick up Mercilus's 5th year. Should be interesting if they plan on doing so. The Panthers have already said they will pick up Kuechley's 5th year option. They'd be crazy not to do so.
 

mussop

Hall of Fame
Just checked it out. The Texans have until May 3rd to pick up Mercilus's 5th year. Should be interesting if they plan on doing so. The Panthers have already said they will pick up Kuechley's 5th year option. They'd be crazy not to do so.
man was I wrong about that guy. Seemed like every tackle he made was down the field. Really thought he was over rated. Kinda like how I feel about Dawson so he'll probably be an all pro to lol.
 

JB

Old Curmudgeon
Contributor's Club
man was I wrong about that guy. Seemed like every tackle he made was down the field. Really thought he was over rated. Kinda like how I feel about Dawson so he'll probably be an all pro to lol.
I think especially when playing in the middle of the field that want to has a lot more importance
 

thunderkyss

Just win baby!!!
Staff member
Contributor's Club
The Texans need to go into this draft with the attitude that Clowney is not on the roster. If he's able to play, then bonus. Otherwise, act like he's not going to play and plan accordingly.
This is what I have been saying all along.
Originally I thought the same thing. However, I believe we should "expect" a nice jump in the level of Mercilus' play. I know... I know.. It's been three years & we've got bump from him. But I think he's responding very well to Vrabel & is finally being coached to be an OLB instead of a rush end.

So while outside rusher is still a need, I think it's lower than what it would be if we were to act as if "Clowney is not on the roster."
 

PHILLYTEXANFAN

Saddle Up Partner
Originally I thought the same thing. However, I believe we should "expect" a nice jump in the level of Mercilus' play. I know... I know.. It's been three years & we've got bump from him. But I think he's responding very well to Vrabel & is finally being coached to be an OLB instead of a rush end.

So while outside rusher is still a need, I think it's lower than what it would be if we were to act as if "Clowney is not on the roster."
While i will say a sack is a sack, how many of Mercilus' sacks were due to blown assignments?
 

ObsiWan

Hall of Fame
Contributor's Club
I thought CLowneys current injuries were post draft.
My point was that pre-draft he was projected, by some, to be the best talent in the draft. I just wonder if the coaching staff still thinks they'll get the guy they thought they drafted or have they been told by their doctors that, even after recovery, he might not perform at near the projected levels.
 

PHILLYTEXANFAN

Saddle Up Partner
does it really matter?
don't you have to alert enough and have enough hustle to take advantage of blown assignments?
Yes. Beating a OL for a sack is not the same as just running in and getting it. If anything it shows he can capitalize on an open lane. It doesn't show he's improved or has gotten better. How alert do you have to be to see no one is blocking you
 

ObsiWan

Hall of Fame
Contributor's Club
Yes. Beating a OL for a sack is not the same as just running in and getting it. If anything it shows he can capitalize on an open lane. It doesn't show he's improved or has gotten better. How alert do you have to be to see no one is blocking you
I hear ya. And, outside of going back through every gametape, there's no way to know how he (or anyone else) accumulated those sacks.

I think he played well - and O'Brien said so - this past season.
“When JD (Jadeveon Clowney) comes back, he’ll have to work back into the mix. That’s not just something that’s going to be handed to him, that’s for sure. Whitney’s played well enough to deserve playing time, that’s for sure, and that’ll be a competition.” explained O’Brien.
link
 

sandman

Brexit Advisor
Yes. Beating a OL for a sack is not the same as just running in and getting it. If anything it shows he can capitalize on an open lane. It doesn't show he's improved or has gotten better. How alert do you have to be to see no one is blocking you
So now we are discrediting his sack totals because they were not the right kind of sacks?

No one has had more sacks in his three seasons other than JJ. In the two years he played with Ninja, he had more sacks.

The entire rest of the LB corps had 1.5 more sacks than he did last year. He also had 7 TFL's and 2 FF which was a hell of a lot more than the other LB's.

Averaging 6 sacks a season from a back of the 1st round draft pick with a base salary less than 1.5MM is the least of the worries on this team. Getting the rest of the LB's to actually do something in a game is.
 

PHILLYTEXANFAN

Saddle Up Partner
So now we are discrediting his sack totals because they were not the right kind of sacks?

No one has had more sacks in his three seasons other than JJ. In the two years he played with Ninja, he had more sacks.

The entire rest of the LB corps had 1.5 more sacks than he did last year. He also had 7 TFL's and 2 FF which was a hell of a lot more than the other LB's.

Averaging 6 sacks a season from a back of the 1st round draft pick with a base salary less than 1.5MM is the least of the worries on this team. Getting the rest of the LB's to actually do something in a game is.
Not discrediting them. I said originally a sack is a sack. A majority were on blown assignments. Doesn't change sack in the end, but it also doesn't show he has improved either
 

sandman

Brexit Advisor
Not discrediting them. I said originally a sack is a sack. A majority were on blown assignments. Doesn't change sack in the end, but it also doesn't show he has improved either
I think the 7 TFL's and 2 FF's definitely show he improved this last year. Anyone that did an eyeball test of his attitude and demeanor on the field would see that Vrabel has really helped his game.

I think you may define "blown assignment" differently than RAC. I believe that his defense is designed for the DL to engage and the OLB's to take advantage of that. His job is not to go hand-to-hand with an OL.

He has 18 sacks in the last three years. No other LB on this team comes close. But he isn't good, just lucky.
 

PHILLYTEXANFAN

Saddle Up Partner
I think the 7 TFL's and 2 FF's definitely show he improved this last year. Anyone that did an eyeball test of his attitude and demeanor on the field would see that Vrabel has really helped his game.

I think you may define "blown assignment" differently than RAC. I believe that his defense is designed for the DL to engage and the OLB's to take advantage of that. His job is not to go hand-to-hand with an OL.

He has 18 sacks in the last three years. No other LB on this team comes close. But he isn't good, just lucky.
18 sacks over 3 years is NOT good. Especially for a former first rounder. He'll lets even get more technical, 5 sacks this year, 2 against an injury plagued Eagles OL, 2 against a shotty steelers OL, 1 against Jags. 18 sacks OVER 3 years is nothing to write home about
 

Blake

MMQB
18 sacks over 3 years is NOT good. Especially for a former first rounder. He'll lets even get more technical, 5 sacks this year, 2 against an injury plagued Eagles OL, 2 against a shotty steelers OL, 1 against Jags. 18 sacks OVER 3 years is nothing to write home about
Dear Home,

Today I got 2 sacks, bringing my total to 18 over 3 years. Things are going well and I am trying harder just in time to cash in on my second paycheck.

Love,
Whitney



Nick Perry who was taken 2 picks later has 9 career sacks. Courtney Upshaw taken 9 picks later has 3 career sacks. So, it could be worse.
 

thunderkyss

Just win baby!!!
Staff member
Contributor's Club
While i will say a sack is a sack, how many of Mercilus' sacks were due to blown assignments?
I agree with what you're saying here. Mercilus is not & never will be that physical freak that's going to beat OLmen straight up. He needs the unpredictability you're supposed to get out of a 3-4 front. When the offense is confused about who's coming, when, & where.

I think Vince is going to help with that, because he makes our ILBs dangerous.
 

sandman

Brexit Advisor
18 sacks over 3 years is NOT good. Especially for a former first rounder. He'll lets even get more technical, 5 sacks this year, 2 against an injury plagued Eagles OL, 2 against a shotty steelers OL, 1 against Jags. 18 sacks OVER 3 years is nothing to write home about
A quick look at the 2012 draft for DE's:

Of the DE's like Mercilus that were converted to LB, Bruce Irvin (#15) from the Seahawks has 16.5 career sacks. Quintin Coples (#16) from the Jets has 16.5 sacks. Shea McClellin (#19) from the Bears has 7.5 sacks.

The remaining DE's that still play DE in the NFL? Chandler Jones (#21) from the Patriots has 23.5 sacks. Andre Branch (#38) from the Jaguars has 10.0 sacks. Vinny Curry (#59) from the Eagles has 13.0 sacks.

If we are going to use sacks as our barometer, then outside of Chandler Jones he has outplayed everyone in his draft class that was picked in the first two rounds.

But again, your issue seems to be about HOW he got the sacks (frequency, style points, etc) and I am just pointing out that he outplayed every other LB on the Texans over the last three years in negative yardage plays and is more than competitive with his draft class.
 

sandman

Brexit Advisor
Dear Home,

Today I got 2 sacks, bringing my total to 18 over 3 years. Things are going well and I am trying harder just in time to cash in on my second paycheck.

Love,
Whitney



Nick Perry who was taken 2 picks later has 9 career sacks. Courtney Upshaw taken 9 picks later has 3 career sacks. So, it could be worse.
I was looking at college LB's drafted as LB's too, and saw a lot of tackles, PD's and INT's which tells me they have been utilized differently. I focused on college DE's that transitioned to LB's and Mercilus still stacks up favorably.
 

Seegara

Guitar Picker, Dog Lover, Woodworker
Yes. Beating a OL for a sack is not the same as just running in and getting it. If anything it shows he can capitalize on an open lane. It doesn't show he's improved or has gotten better. How alert do you have to be to see no one is blocking you
What takes perception is running right at a blocker knowing he's moving over to block someone else.

If you're JJ Watt, you can run right at your blocker and make him run away out of fear.
 

Marshall

Not pretty, but ALIVE!
Yes. Beating a OL for a sack is not the same as just running in and getting it. If anything it shows he can capitalize on an open lane. It doesn't show he's improved or has gotten better. How alert do you have to be to see no one is blocking you
First you must determine whether it is a blown coverage or a trap/screen before you charge the QB. It's not as easy as you make it sound. You still have coverage/gap responsibilities. And many times you bear even more responsibility in order to free your rushers to make complex moves to pressure the QB and collapse the pocket.

There's more to a great line than four great individuals. They have to compliment each other's skills as well. Sometimes the best play is only recognized in house.
 

Hervoyel

BUENO!
A quick look at the 2012 draft for DE's:

Of the DE's like Mercilus that were converted to LB, Bruce Irvin (#15) from the Seahawks has 16.5 career sacks. Quintin Coples (#16) from the Jets has 16.5 sacks. Shea McClellin (#19) from the Bears has 7.5 sacks.

The remaining DE's that still play DE in the NFL? Chandler Jones (#21) from the Patriots has 23.5 sacks. Andre Branch (#38) from the Jaguars has 10.0 sacks. Vinny Curry (#59) from the Eagles has 13.0 sacks.

If we are going to use sacks as our barometer, then outside of Chandler Jones he has outplayed everyone in his draft class that was picked in the first two rounds.

But again, your issue seems to be about HOW he got the sacks (frequency, style points, etc) and I am just pointing out that he outplayed every other LB on the Texans over the last three years in negative yardage plays and is more than competitive with his draft class.
msr
 

PHILLYTEXANFAN

Saddle Up Partner
A quick look at the 2012 draft for DE's:

Of the DE's like Mercilus that were converted to LB, Bruce Irvin (#15) from the Seahawks has 16.5 career sacks. Quintin Coples (#16) from the Jets has 16.5 sacks. Shea McClellin (#19) from the Bears has 7.5 sacks.

The remaining DE's that still play DE in the NFL? Chandler Jones (#21) from the Patriots has 23.5 sacks. Andre Branch (#38) from the Jaguars has 10.0 sacks. Vinny Curry (#59) from the Eagles has 13.0 sacks.

If we are going to use sacks as our barometer, then outside of Chandler Jones he has outplayed everyone in his draft class that was picked in the first two rounds.

But again, your issue seems to be about HOW he got the sacks (frequency, style points, etc) and I am just pointing out that he outplayed every other LB on the Texans over the last three years in negative yardage plays and is more than competitive with his draft class.
Irvin is a 4-3 OLB, Mclellan has been a backup and just switched to OLB, Vinny curry has been a backup, Andre branch, ANOTHER backup
 

Blake

MMQB
18 sacks over 3 years is NOT good. Especially for a former first rounder. He'll lets even get more technical, 5 sacks this year, 2 against an injury plagued Eagles OL, 2 against a shotty steelers OL, 1 against Jags. 18 sacks OVER 3 years is nothing to write home about
You seem to know a lot about Merc's sacks and how he obtained them. Do you also know about Chandler Jones' sacks and how he obtained them? Any of the other players we are discussing?

Its home team syndrome. You know a lot about these Texans players and can knit pick them to death. But are we just assuming the other players sacks are legit? Everyone has their fare share of BS sacks. They all get 'em.
 

ObsiWan

Hall of Fame
Contributor's Club
If Clowneys healthy is Whitney still a starter??
O'Brien said that last year. Clowney will have to beat out Mercilus for the starter's spot.

And that may be harder than it sounds. Mercilus had all last year in Crennel's defense. Clowney has some catching up to do.

Snap count data:
Whitney Mercilus: 767 snaps, 72.2 percent
Brooks Reed: 751 snaps, 70.7 percent
John Simon: 219 snaps, 20.6 percent
Jadeveon Clowney: 142 snaps, 13.4 percent
Ricky Sapp: 22 snaps, 2.1 percent
Jason Ankrah: 16 snaps, 1.5 percent
 

Thorn

Dirty Old Man
My point was that pre-draft he was projected, by some, to be the best talent in the draft. I just wonder if the coaching staff still thinks they'll get the guy they thought they drafted or have they been told by their doctors that, even after recovery, he might not perform at near the projected levels.
I honestly don't see how anybody expects Clowney to play up to expectations, healthy or not. Just don't see it.
 

badboy

Hall of Fame
O'Brien said that last year. Clowney will have to beat out Mercilus for the starter's spot.

And that may be harder than it sounds. Mercilus had all last year in Crennel's defense. Clowney has some catching up to do.

Snap count data:
Whitney Mercilus: 767 snaps, 72.2 percent
Brooks Reed: 751 snaps, 70.7 percent
John Simon: 219 snaps, 20.6 percent
Jadeveon Clowney: 142 snaps, 13.4 percent
Ricky Sapp: 22 snaps, 2.1 percent
Jason Ankrah: 16 snaps, 1.5 percent
I'm going to disagree in that if he feels he can handle the pain Clowney's confidence will rise. Even if explosion is gone if the speed is close to last year he will be more effective than Mercilus IMO. It may take a few days for him to get kinks worked out but it depends on pain.
 

ObsiWan

Hall of Fame
Contributor's Club
I'm going to disagree in that if he feels he can handle the pain Clowney's confidence will rise. Even if explosion is gone if the speed is close to last year he will be more effective than Mercilus IMO. It may take a few days for him to get kinks worked out but it depends on pain.
All I know is Clowney has basically missed a year's worth of in-game experience and Mercilus seemed to have capitalized on that opportunity.

I think he’s one of the more improved guys on our team from when we got here last winter into the spring, OTAs and training camp in the summer. He’s really gotten better every time out on the practice field. I think that’s showing up in the games and that can only help our team. I think he’s a hard-working kid who really wants to be good and it shows up. His hard work is showing up on the game field.

This is what Head Coach Bill O’Brien said of outside linebacker Whitney Mercilus after another solid performance against the Pittsburgh Steelers. He notched two quarterback sacks giving him his first two of the season, but the former first round pick has been more of a force than most realize.

His 24 total pressures (sacks, QB hits, QB Hurries) rank him 7th among NFL 3-4 outside linebackers ahead of names like Clay Matthews, Trent Cole, Connor Barwin, Tamba Hali and Chandler Jones to name a few.

This is a climb for a player who looked over matched mentally with the new system that Romeo Crennel brought to Houston this year. At one point, Mercilus lost his starting position to Jadeveon Clowney and soon became an after thought due to a lackluster performance at training camp and during the preseason.

Mercilus was used sparingly in the season opener as a rotational player and plugged in on passing downs. With Clowney going down with a knee injury in week one, it has become a seven game stretch in which Mercilus has impressed and added another element to the defense.

The light turned on against the Indianapolis Colts where he was playing fast off the edge making plays in the run game and rushing Andrew Luck consistently. It carried over to the Steelers game when he was giving Ben Roethlisberger more than he could handle which eventually led to a caused fumble.

Even with the return of Clowney potentially to arrive this week against the Tennessee Titans, defensive plans still include Mercilus for the production he has put up recently, “When JD (Jadeveon Clowney) comes back, he’ll have to work back into the mix. That’s not just something that’s going to be handed to him, that’s for sure. Whitney’s played well enough to deserve playing time, that’s for sure, and that’ll be a competition.” explained O’Brien.
It has been an up and down learning process for Mercilus, now it looks like he is living up to his first round potential for the Texans.
LINK

Don't take this as me banging the drum for Mercilus. I don't have to. O'Brien already did. I'm just saying that when Clowney is healed up, O'Brien won't just hand him the starter's job; (a) that's not O'Brien's M.O. and (b) Clowney (because of injuries) has done nothing to earn it.
 

badboy

Hall of Fame
Obsiwon, hard not to laugh at that writer who thought it was ok for Mercilus to have difficult time with Crennel but not Clowney. I am cool with Merci but if at only 75% Clowney will be better and will be handed the starter job quickly if not game one.

If Brooks Reed 6'3" 253 can handle the running game so can Mercilus 6'4 258 and can be taught to work opposite Clowney. If OBrien will not hand job to CLowney why did he do so game one last year per info you posted?

Competition will be in TC and preseason, if Clowney is healthy enough to be "good to go", then he goes.
 

Marshall

Not pretty, but ALIVE!
I interpret the situation as:

Clowney makes the squad rather than go to IR, but he's relegated to the backup roles until he shows something in practice which will change things. Perhaps limited third down usage in nickel packages just to get his feet wet. I wouldn't look for a start before the second half barring injury to the starting OLBs.

The hope would be that he peaks just as the key games and playoffs approach.

But that is taking a little reporting and stretching it to the extreme with speculation.
 

infantrycak

Admin & Mod
I interpret the situation as:

Clowney makes the squad rather than go to IR, but he's relegated to the backup roles until he shows something in practice which will change things. Perhaps limited third down usage in nickel packages just to get his feet wet. I wouldn't look for a start before the second half barring injury to the starting OLBs.

The hope would be that he peaks just as the key games and playoffs approach.

But that is taking a little reporting and stretching it to the extreme with speculation.
Not really. With the medical info we have from Doc a gradual increase in pitch count approach would not be surprising at all.
 

Thorn

Dirty Old Man
Bah humbug ! That all you got Mr Sunhine ? C'mon man, you can think of something worse to say about Clowney can't you ?
Well, let's see. Another wasted 1st round pick by the Texans isn't really something you can blame on him. However, the fact that he'll never be what he was supposed to be leaves him open to ridicule to internet posters, such as myself, that do know more about football than the people who are actually employed to do so.

Clowney, a draft pick I cheered last year, will never deliver the goods as promised. He might be actually useful, but not in a 1st pick in the draft type of useful.


Mr. Sunshine
 

Norg

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
I was at the draft party and people cheered CLowney and booed Johnny football

o well we are stuck with him now so yeah no turning back
 

Nitrofish

Let The Big Fish Eat!
Well, let's see. Another wasted 1st round pick by the Texans isn't really something you can blame on him. However, the fact that he'll never be what he was supposed to be leaves him open to ridicule to internet posters, such as myself, that do know more about football than the people who are actually employed to do so.

Clowney, a draft pick I cheered last year, will never deliver the goods as promised. He might be actually useful, but not in a 1st pick in the draft type of useful.


Mr. Sunshine
Hey, if you don't mind. As long as you have your crystal ball out. Would you mind privately passing on the winning power ball number to me? And while you are at it, can you explain what the hell the final episode of Lost really meant?

Thanks,

Mr. Skeptical
 

infantrycak

Admin & Mod
Hey, if you don't mind. As long as you have your crystal ball out. Would you mind privately passing on the winning power ball number to me? And while you are at it, can you explain what the hell the final episode of Lost really meant?

Thanks,

Mr. Skeptical
You're looking at PowerBall odds for Clowney to ever be the player he was drafted to be. And that’s not Ms. Cleo, it's Doc.
 

IDEXAN

Hall of Fame
Contributor's Club
Well, let's see. Another wasted 1st round pick by the Texans isn't really something you can blame on him. However, the fact that he'll never be what he was supposed to be leaves him open to ridicule to internet posters, such as myself, that do know more about football than the people who are actually employed to do so.

Clowney, a draft pick I cheered last year, will never deliver the goods as promised. He might be actually useful, but not in a 1st pick in the draft type of useful.


Mr. Sunshine
Hey Mr Sunshine, there have been reports out there that John Wayne might have been a pansy. I dunno if they are true or not, but what do you have to say about your hero now ? I say long-live Clowney ! Take that Mr Sunhine !
 
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