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JaDeveon Clowney

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JB

Innocent Bystander
Contributor's Club
Avoiding improper expectations for timeframe isn't difficult here. Case studies of microfracture rehab exist, and those say he won't be ready for camp.
maybe their just trying to keep his confidence up and let the masses know he's doing every thing he can to make it back
 

ObsiWan

Hall of Fame
Contributor's Club
What are they supposed to say? He's goofing off and won't ever make it back? They have high expectations also, and if he is working hard to come back, it's giving him props where it's due. If he wasn't working hard I'm sure that would be on the grapevine by now. You'd hear of him and JJ duking it out or somesuch. I don't get the improper expectations bit.
I think Brisco is saying what Doc has said. How hard Clowney is working isn't the determining factor and the head shed shouldn't be acting like it is.
 

JB

Innocent Bystander
Contributor's Club
I think Brisco is saying what Doc has said. How hard Clowney is working isn't the determining factor and the head shed shouldn't be acting like it is.
I get that. But what I'm saying is that it shouldn't be an issue. OB was asked about his progress, rather than say no comment ( which would have sent everyone into severe hysteria ), he replied that Clowney was working very hard to come back. He's made it plain that he would prefer not to discuss injured players but the stupid media has to keep grinding it out to satisfy their perception of what the masses want to know
 

Marshall

Not pretty, but ALIVE!
maybe their just trying to keep his confidence up and let the masses know he's doing every thing he can to make it back
He may not be ready physically, but this is a great opportunity to make the mental part solid so he's ready when the physical part is ready.
 

PapaL

Loose Screw
Hopefully while he's staying in shape he doesn't end up like Cush and over training lol. But seriously, he doesn't need to show up all top heavy.
 

Bulls on Parade

2017 Astros: Earn It!
Nice to see Jadeveon Clowney walking around and putting pressure on that knee. He was at the Rockets game at Toyota Center last night and going to be at the Galleria today signing autographs. He must be making legitimate progress. I expect him to be a "full go" by training camp and seeing some useful snaps in the preseason so he's in game shape by Week 1 in September. Hopefully getting back to where he was when he was dominating the Falcons last preseason and looking pretty decent in the first quarter and a half against the Redskins Week 1 last year.
 

IDEXAN

Hall of Fame
Contributor's Club
Nice to see Jadeveon Clowney walking around and putting pressure on that knee. He was at the Rockets game at Toyota Center last night and going to be at the Galleria today signing autographs. He must be making legitimate progress. I expect him to be a "full go" by training camp and seeing some useful snaps in the preseason so he's in game shape by Week 1 in September. Hopefully getting back to where he was when he was dominating the Falcons last preseason and looking pretty decent in the first quarter and a half against the Redskins Week 1 last year.
That's good news. Were you at the game in person or just saw the game on TV ? Tell me more about his demeanor ? Was he talking with other fans ?
So he had his surgery in late December, so he's 3 months out now, right ?
When does he start running, or start jogging then running, then running sprints ? Anybody know his timetable for these things during his rehab ?
Who knows, maybe JD and DJ and DJ's wonder dog will start entertaining fans at Rocket half-times ?
 

thunderkyss

Just win baby!!!
Staff member
Contributor's Club
CnD, question for you.

For normal folk having this kind of operation, the doctor would physically examine the knee & try to discern if the healing process is on track. I don't see how they can discern anything of any importance externally, but at least they make a good showing, & can bill you for a doctor's visit.

In the case of a million dollar investment such as JaDeveon Clowney, would it be too much to expect xrays & MRIs have been used to gauge the recovery process? Or is it possible that he's started putting weight on the knee too early?

Are they waiting for swelling & pain to tell them something's wrong & wouldn't that swelling & pain be telling us we messed up a long time ago?
 

CloakNNNdagger

Hall of Fame
CnD, question for you.

For normal folk having this kind of operation, the doctor would physically examine the knee & try to discern if the healing process is on track. I don't see how they can discern anything of any importance externally, but at least they make a good showing, & can bill you for a doctor's visit.

In the case of a million dollar investment such as JaDeveon Clowney, would it be too much to expect xrays & MRIs have been used to gauge the recovery process? Or is it possible that he's started putting weight on the knee too early?

Are they waiting for swelling & pain to tell them something's wrong & wouldn't that swelling & pain be telling us we messed up a long time ago?
TK, you definitely make me earn my keep around here.:)

Microfracture patients are most reliably followed by their clinical progression as relates to pain and swelling at each phase, as well as range of motion and strength improvement over time. Once the patient begins weight bearing, in determination as to whether they are appropriate to advance to the next activity level.........walking, jogging, jumping, etc., he will be monitored for maintenance of normal mechanics.

MRIs are more an adjunct testing to follow progress anatomically, but definitely takes a back seat to the clinical evaluations. After the microfracture procedure MRIs are commonly evaluated preoperatively and 6, 18 and 36 months after surgery, although this is ultimately at the discretion of the surgeon. The MRI becomes more important in the cases where clinical problems come up. Studies in even non athletes have shown that the anatomical improvement may occur over the 1st 18 months but wear-down deterioration occurs universally after that.

It is so important to understand that no matter what microfracture or resurfacing technique is used, several studies have shown that they may have a measure of success only if the biomechanical properties affecting the joint with tibiofemoral or patella malalignment and ligament instabilities are considered and treated as well. Clowney's potential for ongoing aberrant mechanics due to hip and foot pathology remains a great concern to me, not only in the short term but especially in his longer term prognosis.
 

thunderkyss

Just win baby!!!
Staff member
Contributor's Club
TK, you definitely make me earn my keep around here.:)
& it's much appreciated.

In laymens terms, pain & swelling are the best indicators at this point.

Moderate exercise is allowed & monitored to gauge such progress. I assume little to no pain or swelling is expected after the first prescription of exercise/physical therapy & then gradually increased.
 

CloakNNNdagger

Hall of Fame
& it's much appreciated.

In laymens terms, pain & swelling are the best indicators at this point.

Moderate exercise is allowed & monitored to gauge such progress. I assume little to no pain or swelling is expected after the first prescription of exercise/physical therapy & then gradually increased.
That's essentially correct, although most patients will maintain some swelling and pain following this surgery........forever. The monitoring is for unusual pain and swelling that is accompanied by significant affect on the player's ability to adequately function.
 

ObsiWan

Hall of Fame
Contributor's Club
TK, you definitely make me earn my keep around here.:)

Microfracture patients are most reliably followed by their clinical progression as relates to pain and swelling at each phase, as well as range of motion and strength improvement over time. Once the patient begins weight bearing, in determination as to whether they are appropriate to advance to the next activity level.........walking, jogging, jumping, etc., he will be monitored for maintenance of normal mechanics.

MRIs are more an adjunct testing to follow progress anatomically, but definitely takes a back seat to the clinical evaluations. After the microfracture procedure MRIs are commonly evaluated preoperatively and 6, 18 and 36 months after surgery, although this is ultimately at the discretion of the surgeon. The MRI becomes more important in the cases where clinical problems come up. Studies in even non athletes have shown that the anatomical improvement may occur over the 1st 18 months but wear-down deterioration occurs universally after that.

It is so important to understand that no matter what microfracture or resurfacing technique is used, several studies have shown that they may have a measure of success only if the biomechanical properties affecting the joint with tibiofemoral or patella malalignment and ligament instabilities are considered and treated as well. Clowney's potential for ongoing aberrant mechanics due to hip and foot pathology remains a great concern to me, not only in the short term but especially in his longer term prognosis.
So you're telling me that root cause has possibly not adequately been addressed?
 

thunderkyss

Just win baby!!!
Staff member
Contributor's Club
So you're telling me that root cause has possibly not adequately been addressed?
I think the root cause was some physical anomaly with Clowney's jump & NRG's turf... something wonky went on there.

However, there may be extenuating circumstances that may hinder his recovery (is what I believe he is saying).
 

CloakNNNdagger

Hall of Fame
........


John McClain @McClain_on_NFL · 11m 11 minutes ago

Clowney "Man, I'm just having fun. I'm just glad to be able to walk." He couldn't put weight on his right knee for more than 6 weeks.
John McClain @McClain_on_NFL · 14m 14 minutes ago

From a personal perspective, Clowney walking like normal, usual fun loving self but knows he still has a long way to go.
John McClain @McClain_on_NFL · 18m 18 minutes ago

Clowney during an appearance at Puma store "It's going good. I'm taking it one day at a time, having some fun hanging out with fans."
John McClain @McClain_on_NFL · 19m 19 minutes ago

Jadeveon Clowney said rehab going well. He's walking without a limp. Surgery was almost 4 months ago.
 

IDEXAN

Hall of Fame
Contributor's Club
On the subject of John McClain reporting on Clowney. This past week on 610 radio he said that Clowney did not land on a seam between the squares at NRG, but landed instead smack dab in the middle of one of the squares.
But McClains report from Puma today is encouraging if only in the sense that Clowney is maybe back to enjoying life a bit more than since the injury and surgery.
 

texanhead08

All Pro
On the subject of John McClain reporting on Clowney. This past week on 610 radio he said that Clowney did not land on a seam between the squares at NRG, but landed instead smack dab in the middle of one of the squares.
But McClains report from Puma today is encouraging if only in the sense that Clowney is maybe back to enjoying life a bit more than since the injury and surgery.

I don't believe that just because McClain only reports what the Texans organization tells him to report.
 

CloakNNNdagger

Hall of Fame
Jadeveon Clowney ‘very encouraged’ by progress in recovery from knee surgery
By John McClain

Texans linebacker Jadeveon Clowney saw a knee injury bring to an end what was already a disappointing rookie season after being selected No. 1 overall. (Karen Warren / Houston Chronicle)

Texans linebacker Jadeveon Clowney saw a knee injury bring to an end what was already a disappointing rookie season after being selected No. 1 overall. (Karen Warren / Houston Chronicle)

Texans outside linebacker Jadeveon Clowney is making terrific progress in his recovery from microfracture surgery on his right knee almost four months ago.

Clowney, the first overall pick in last year’s draft, expressed confidence that he’ll be able to return but didn’t put a timetable on it.

Last week, coach Bill O’Brien praised Clowney’s progress in his daily rehabilitation at NGR Stadium and said the Texans are hoping he can be on the field sometime during training camp that begins the last week of July.

“I’m not going to speak on that, but I’m making progress, and I’m very encouraged,” Clowney said during an appearance at the Puma store in the Galleria. “I’m working hard, but we’re not going to rush it.”

Speaking publicly for the first time since undergoing surgery on Dec. 8, Clowney said, “Rehab is tough, tougher than playing. You have to get there (NRG Stadium) earlier than everybody and leave later than everybody.”

The Texans are satisfied with Clowney’s progress and speak positively about his return next season. Still, microfracture surgery calls for a nine- to 10-month recovery period.

Clowney said he works four to five hours a day. He couldn’t put weight on his right knee for “six to seven weeks” after undergoing surgery.

“Man, I thought that was going to be real tough, but I had my family around a lot,” Clowney said about not being able to put weight on his knee. “When they finally told me I could walk, I just took off.

“I’m progressing well. I’m moving forward in my rehab. Things are starting to come together just like I hoped they would.”

Clowney experienced a difficult rookie season. He underwent surgery for a sports hernia in June and suffered a concussion during preseason.

Clowney suffered the knee injury in the Texans’ first game, a victory over Washington. He tried to play while undergoing rehabilitation through the season before the team decided on the microfracture surgery.

“I’m just taking it one day at a time,” Clowney said. “This is a great day because I’m having fun with the fans.”
 

badboy

Hall of Fame
here is very lengthy article with doctor comments that seem optimistic for most part. I will post notable comments but is pretty long. From Dec 2014 but don't remember seeing it posted.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/texans/2014/12/10/jadeveon-clowney-microfracture-knee-surgery-outlook/20222073/

That timetable is reasonable said Alexis Colvin, an orthopedic surgeon specializing in sports medicine at the Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai in New York.

"Usually you're not allowed to put weight on the leg for about six weeks while we're letting that area heal in with the new surface," said Colvin. "To go back to high impact sports, I would say probably anywhere between four to six months kind of return to playing conditions. And obviously part of that is you're doing a lot of physical therapy to get back in shape."
Timothy Hewett, director of research for Ohio State University Sports Medicine and director of the school's Sports Health & Performance Institute, stressed that he knew no specifics of Clowney's case and that microfracture surgery "may very well be" appropriate.

"It appears to do well mainly in small lesions (holes) and over the shorter term. I could not say how large his lesion is," said Hewett, who also acknowledged there are doubts about the procedure.

"Microfracture is sort of losing favor these days in large part. … It's more of a short-term remedy," said Hewett. "But if you look at the longer-term outcomes after microfracture,

He said other methods include filling the holes with bits of cartilage from non-weight bearing surfaces elsewhere in the body. In another procedure, cartilage cells taken from the patient's body are grown in Petri dishes and then inserted into a spongy scaffold in the holes.

"Those appear to do significantly better over the long term," said Hewett.


USA TODAY
Texans' Jadeveon Clowney has microfracture knee surgery

After injuring his knee in Week 1 of this season, Clowney had surgery to repair a torn meniscus (another type of cartilage).

The latest surgery was done to repair articular cartilage, which is located at the ends of the bones in knee joints.

"It's hard and smooth, almost like an eggshell," said Colvin.

Holes, "sort of like a pothole," can develop as the cartilage wears away, she said. "If the hole is small enough, we can actually poke holes into the bone underneath and get it to bleed," added Colvin. "And when it bleeds, it has growth factors in it that will help it heal."

She said of the new cartilage: "Nothing can reproduce the cartilage that you are born with. … So the cartilage that is formed from the procedure is an inferior type of cartilage … but it could potentially be a good substitute."
If posted I apologize but thought it a good read.
 

ObsiWan

Hall of Fame
Contributor's Club
I found this passage a tad worriesome...
"Microfracture is sort of losing favor these days in large part. … It's more of a short-term remedy," said Hewett. "But if you look at the longer-term outcomes after microfracture, they're not very good. And this is especially apparent in the NBA. Some really high profile players in the NBA (such as Greg Oden) had microfracture and did not do well.
Will Clowney be back under the knife after one season? Two or three?
What, exactly, is "short-term"? I hope he doesn't have a Greg Oden type experience.
 

badboy

Hall of Fame
I found this passage a tad worriesome...


Will Clowney be back under the knife after one season? Two or three?
What, exactly, is "short-term"? I hope he doesn't have a Greg Oden type experience.
That is what I got from CnD's comments. Perhaps the Texans will use him like they are Foster, get what you can and go on. My understanding is Clowney will not have long term NFL health and at best 2-3 years of possibly very good play and perhaps average play after that if things go just right. That will get him through his rookie contract.
 

CloakNNNdagger

Hall of Fame
here is very lengthy article with doctor comments that seem optimistic for most part. I will post notable comments but is pretty long. From Dec 2014 but don't remember seeing it posted.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/texans/2014/12/10/jadeveon-clowney-microfracture-knee-surgery-outlook/20222073/


"It appears to do well mainly in small lesions (holes) and over the shorter term. I could not say how large his lesion is," said Hewett, who also acknowledged there are doubts about the procedure.
If posted I apologize but thought it a good read.
Smaller (<1cm) lesions and lesions located on non weightbearing surfaces of the joint cartilage would be expected to yield the best results. Lesions smaller than 1 cm occur in ~2/3 of injuries.......which may favor Clowney's prognosis, although it is quite likely that he falls into the 1/3 category of the lesion being larger as there was also significant accompanying lateral meniscus damage. However, the majority (~85%) of cartilage lesions are located on weight bearing surfaces........making it much more likely to quickly grind down any newly formed cartilage the more the knee is "used."
 

thunderkyss

Just win baby!!!
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Smaller (<1cm) lesions and lesions located on non weightbearing surfaces of the joint cartilage would be expected to yield the best results.
I guess we'll never know the extent of the injury, but I guess it's safe to say it was on a weight bearing surface, since there was complications after the original surgery, right?
 

badboy

Hall of Fame
Smaller (<1cm) lesions and lesions located on non weightbearing surfaces of the joint cartilage would be expected to yield the best results. Lesions smaller than 1 cm occur in ~2/3 of injuries.......which may favor Clowney's prognosis, although it is quite likely that he falls into the 1/3 category of the lesion being larger as there was also significant accompanying lateral meniscus damage. However, the majority (~85%) of cartilage lesions are located on weight bearing surfaces........making it much more likely to quickly grind down any newly formed cartilage the more the knee is "used."
Do you agree with my position that he may get 2-3 very good years at best barring info we are not aware of?
 

CloakNNNdagger

Hall of Fame
Do you agree with my position that he may get 2-3 very good years at best barring info we are not aware of?
That would be more of a Miss Cleo question. Truthfully, I doubt that his own surgeon would be willing to bet his life that Clowney can make it back to a regular season game at all. We really are left to try to logically reconstruct the injuries. I will point out that a player may even have more favorable type of injury (such as small lesions) and may still have unfavorable outcomes. With Clowney's history of type of injuries and adding in his multifactoral mechanics problems into the equation, I'd be very hesitant at this time to give him anymore than the possibility of up to 18 months of optimistic play. Keep in mind that even as his rehab intensifies, the clock starts ticking on the grind down of his forming cartilage, possibly shortening the 18 month window.

All microfracture players when tested have shown that they can ultimately (although hamstring can return to 100%) return to only ~80% quadriceps strength specifically. This factors in heavily in these players' loss of max explosiveness, a characteristic that Clowney has been best known for.

As always, we will all have to just wait and watch together as to what his future brings.
 
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IDEXAN

Hall of Fame
Contributor's Club
That would be more of a Miss Cleo question. Truthfully, I doubt that his own surgeon would be willing to bet his life that Clowney can make it back to a regular season game at all. We really are left to try to logically reconstruct the injuries. I will point out that a player may even have more favorable type of injury (such as small lesions) and may still have unfavorable outcomes. With Clowney's history of type of injuries and adding in his multifactoral mechanics problems into the equation, I'd be very hesitant at this time to give him anymore than the possibility of up to 18 months of optimistic play. Keep in mind that even as his rehab intensifies, the clock starts ticking on the grind down of his forming cartilage, possibly shortening the 18 month window.

All microfracture players when tested have shown that they can ultimately (although hamstring can return to 100%) return to only ~80% quadriceps strength specifically. This factors in heavily in these players' loss of max explosiveness, a characteristic that Clowney has been best known for.

As always, we will all have to just wait and watch together as to what his future brings.
So your range for Clowney begins with him failing to make it to even the first regular season game of the year, but with an upside possibility of up to 18 months of optimistic play, which you are very hesitant about.
So that range would be 0 to 16 games, so the best outcome for Clowney is that he plays in every game this year, with the understanding that you are saying there's a very low probability of that happening.
 

ObsiWan

Hall of Fame
Contributor's Club
So your range for Clowney begins with him failing to make it to even the first regular season game of the year, but with an upside possibility of up to 18 months of optimistic play, which you are very hesitant about.
So that range would be 0 to 16 games, so the best outcome for Clowney is that he plays in every game this year, with the understanding that you are saying there's a very low probability of that happening.
That about sums it up

count on Doc

[imgwidthsize=200]http://i777.photobucket.com/albums/yy55/bshoptenor/milburn_stone_zps0ad2426a.jpg[/IMG]

to always give it to us straight
 

badboy

Hall of Fame
maybe I am being way optimistic but if I am understanding Doc, Clowney will lose at least 20% of speed he was known for which should bring him down to an avg or maybe bit better and he should have enough strength to get to runner if his laterals hold up..I hope. I did say I was optimistic.
 

Double Barrel

Texans Talk Admin
Staff member
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The Texans need to go into this draft with the attitude that Clowney is not on the roster. If he's able to play, then bonus. Otherwise, act like he's not going to play and plan accordingly.
 

CloakNNNdagger

Hall of Fame
maybe I am being way optimistic but if I am understanding Doc, Clowney will lose at least 20% of speed he was known for which should bring him down to an avg or maybe bit better and he should have enough strength to get to runner if his laterals hold up..I hope. I did say I was optimistic.
The question of single factor quad strength return is independent as relates to the overall question as to if and how much a player he will be..........which is more importantly dependent on the size, type and location of the lesion(s) and their ability to regenerate...........and maintain under stress.

[EDIT: The loss of the quad strength will be less noticeable in decreased "speed" and likely much more noticeable in initial "explosion."]
 

ObsiWan

Hall of Fame
Contributor's Club
The Texans need to go into this draft with the attitude that Clowney is not on the roster. If he's able to play, then bonus. Otherwise, act like he's not going to play and plan accordingly.
Concur.

But one has to wonder if the Texans' medical staff has communicated the possibility of Clowney not coming back at projected performance levels to the coaching staff? They thought they were drafting the best athlete in the 2014 draft. Now it looks like they might, at best, have a 2nd/3rd rd talent.

It may just be marketing talk, but McNair talks like he expects Clowney back.
 

CloakNNNdagger

Hall of Fame
Concur.

But one has to wonder if the Texans' medical staff has communicated the possibility of Clowney not coming back at projected performance levels to the coaching staff? They thought they were drafting the best athlete in the 2014 draft. Now it looks like they might, at best, have a 2nd/3rd rd talent.

It may just be marketing talk, but McNair talks like he expects Clowney back.

OK, guys. I didn't do so great with Ed Reed. This time, you go ahead and call it.


 

badboy

Hall of Fame
The question of single factor quad strength return is independent as relates to the overall question as to if and how much a player he will be..........which is more importantly dependent on the size, type and location of the lesion(s) and their ability to regenerate...........and maintain under stress.

[EDIT: The loss of the quad strength will be less noticeable in decreased "speed" and likely much more noticeable in initial "explosion."]
here is why I think he will be okay for a while even if not 100%, play him opposite Watt as much as possible so JJ can drive the QB towards Clowney. Bolded will get him to correct spot to impact QB enough so JJ can wrap. I love explosion but if gone speed can be good if not great at OLB.
 

badboy

Hall of Fame
Concur.

But one has to wonder if the Texans' medical staff has communicated the possibility of Clowney not coming back at projected performance levels to the coaching staff? They thought they were drafting the best athlete in the 2014 draft. Now it looks like they might, at best, have a 2nd/3rd rd talent.

It may just be marketing talk, but McNair talks like he expects Clowney back.
I thought CLowneys current injuries were post draft.
 
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