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FIRE O'BRIEN NOW!!!

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Mr teX said:
Crennel couldn't make it work last year though.....The pats were in a totally different situation..for starters they had all their picks. Keep trying, one day you'll get it.
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The Texans had extra third rounders.

There's always an excuse for why O'Brien screws up. Maybe he's just a bad coach.
 
Mr teX said:
They ARE getting help..Mostly Davenport is anyway.... & i already answered your question JB. Watch this video. In 4 of those sacks there is a back on either side that is there to help out with a chip. The other sacks they are in a situation where they have numbers so there are opportunities for combo blocks. They are rarely on an island by themselves or without help in some form..I want you to notice whose side the chip block is mostly on and/or whose side the help is being shaded to.
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I saw only one of those sacks where a back chipped on Davenports side and that was a blitz pickup. I'm not trying to say Davenport doesn't suck, because it's obvious he does. But OB and Devlin keep putting him out there hoping for the best. Perhaps I didn't see your answer to my question about who was responsible for him being out there other than I did see 'he's a pro'.
 
Shishkabob said:
It's funny how former NFL players will say how vital coaching is to a player's performance, but you a keyboard warrior wants to discredit it. Have you played sports in your life ever? If coaching isn't vital to a players development why did we let our DB coach go when KJo wasn't improving enough? Why did OB can his first OL coach because he thought he was hurting X's development? It is obvious O'Brien himself believes coaching plays a big role in a players development, why do you want to discredit it?

I get we missed on Solder, I am fine with them taking a chance and missing. I understand there weren't many other options out there. A lot of back up level talent which is generally what hits the FA market for OL. But Davenport, and Rankin haven't even been playing on a backup level. We saw last year first hand the dumpster fire that Kendall Lamm was, why couldn't they bring in someone to replace him at the 4th OT spot? Are you suggesting there were no FA better than Lamm? I get bringing in Henderson cheap 1 year deal with upside, but they could have brought in more and should have, at least for competitions sake.

It's a new OL they need time to gel right? Well then why did O'Brien barely play them in the preseason considering it was 5 guys who have really never played together before? How come with a young inexperienced LT, and new RT who hasn't played much in recent years did we not allocate more help to our oline in the first 3 games?(we were bottom 5 in the league in leaving in extra blockers) How come after 2 games(games 4&5) of allocating more help, and showing improvement in pass blocking did O'Brien revert back to doing what he did the first 3 games against Buffalo and not helping the line as much?

Why can't the interior of our line, which has our 3 best most experienced blockers on it not communicate and pick up simple stunts, and blitzes? Why do they have such a hard time working together in unison in the run game? Fulton and Kelemente didn't struggle with it in their previous stops. Yea sure new team, new system, but 6 weeks in and I have seen no improvement in that regard.

Through 6 weeks our QB has been hit 70 times, next closest team is at 49. They will essentially have to play 3 more games to get their QB hit as many times as Watson has, and I get it Watson has caused a lot of those hits on himself, but he has also escaped a lot more. Again the failings of the team will always fall directly on the shoulders of the HC. It is his job to make sure the coaches under him are coaching properly and getting the players to take to the coaching. We are now seeing 5 years of regression with our oline, and he still employs Devlin who has had 1 line in his entire NFL career who finished with an above average grade, and that Jets line had 3 pro bowlers on it. Devlin has never coached a line that didn't finish in the bottom 20 with penalties which screams poor coaching
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So now we're going to the "did u even play" stance? Lol. Why yes..yes i did play....qb and safety. Also have coached as well. Have you lol? On that level, yes you need coaching to learn the schemes and help with your technique that you should already have some basis & familiarity with from college..But the overall performance improvement to be able to play on that level comes from the raw talent that is present there with the player & the players own ability to apply said coaching. James Harrison got cut 7 times before turning into the monster he became. TB12 moved up from 5th string to starter in what 2-3 years. That was mostly the player doubling down on their efforts and learning how to apply the coaching they were being given.

You can't sit up here and tell me these guys are not being coached up to know what's most likely coming from their opponent week to week, They have a whole damn day dedicated to it during the week (gameplan installation day), they are also being critiqued & coached up during film sessions...before and after games. Nor can you tell me they don't work on technique every damn day of the week....that's what all those damn drills they do are for. You also can't tell me they don't have the opportunities themselves to work on that stuff on their own & as a group. They are professionals. Its all they do. So then you have to ask yourself, "what is the deciding factor then?

You'd be hard pressed to get a successful player to attribute a significant amount of their success to coaches...most would probably attribute it more to a veteran player before a coach....especially on that level. Most those guys will say something to the effect, "yeah i owe alot of my development to such & such.....but there was much more hard work and hours I put in to be the player i am too.
 
TheKDog said:
The Texans had extra third rounders.

There's always an excuse for why O'Brien screws up. Maybe he's just a bad coach.
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So...basically you wanted them to give up Rankin or Reid to go after a veteran o-linemen instead..gotcha.
 
Mr teX said:
So now we're going to the "did u even play" stance? Lol. Why yes..yes i did play....qb and safety. Also have coached as well. Have you lol? On that level, yes you need coaching to learn the schemes and help with your technique that you should already have some basis & familiarity with from college..But the overall performance improvement to be able to play on that level comes from the raw talent that is present there with the player & the players own ability to apply said coaching. James Harrison got cut 7 times before turning into the monster he became. TB12 moved up from 5th string to starter in what 2-3 years. That was mostly the player doubling down on their efforts and learning how to apply the coaching they were being given.

You can't sit up here and tell me these guys are not being coached up to know what's most likely coming from their opponent week to week, They have a whole damn day dedicated to it during the week (gameplan installation day), they are also being critiqued & coached up during film sessions...before and after games. Nor can you tell me they don't work on technique every damn day of the week....that's what all those damn drills they do are for. You also can't tell me they don't have the opportunities themselves to work on that stuff on their own & as a group. They are professionals. Its all they do. So then you have to ask yourself, "what is the deciding factor then?

You'd be hard pressed to get a successful player to attribute a significant amount of their success to coaches...most would probably attribute it more to a veteran player before a coach....especially on that level. Most those guys will say something to the effect, "yeah i owe alot of my development to such & such.....but there was much more hard work and hours I put in to be the player i am too.
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Do you think Devlin a good coach?
 
JB said:
I saw only one of those sacks where a back chipped on Davenports side and that was a blitz pickup. I'm not trying to say Davenport doesn't suck, because it's obvious he does. But OB and Devlin keep putting him out there hoping for the best. Perhaps I didn't see your answer to my question about who was responsible for him being out there other than I did see 'he's a pro'.
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Then you're not paying attention. Blue/Miller were supposed to chip and go out in route on at least 3 of those sacks. However the attempts were so pathetic by both that it looks like they just went out in route.

I said BoB was responsible..but Davenport ultimately holds the responsibility to perform.
 
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Mr teX said:
Then you're not paying attention. Blue/Miller were supposed to chip and go out in route on at least 3 of those sacks. However the attempts were so pathetic by both that it looks like they just went out in route.

I said BoB was responsible..but Davenport ultimately holds the responsibility to perform.
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Perhaps I should have said I saw 1 partially successful chip
 
JB said:
Do you think Devlin a good coach?
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Impossible to know really. he hasn't been given much to work with and the pressure seems to only really consistently be coming from 2 areas...LT and RT. And like i stated upthread, the guys he had last year aren't faring any better on other teams either.
 
JB said:
Perhaps I should have said I saw 1 partially successful chip
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Last week in watching the cowboys against the jags..i saw Zeke Elliot put Calais Campbell on his ass with a chip block straight to the ribs. Sent Campbell to the sideline for a few plays & if memory serves, he's on their injury report for among other things sore ribs. The chips Blue and Miller attempted were aiken to a qb trying to block on a reverse lol...just terrible.

I think you get the picture though. They aren't really being left out on an island all that often. Adjustments have been made scheme wise to help them..mainly Davenport. Chips, trap & combo blocks and the like are being utilized regularly. The dilemma for BoB is how much of your offensive scheme are you willing/cann you afford to sacrifice for protection. There has to be some type of balance & those guys should be expected to handle their 1 on 1's at least some.

The calls for creativity in playcalling are limited by protection initiatives...that really still aren't working based on last week.
 
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Mr teX said:
Last week in watching the cowboys against the jags..i saw Zeke Elliot put Calais Campbell on his ass with a chip block straight to the ribs. Sent Campbell to the sideline for a few plays & if memory serves, he's on their injury report for among other things sore ribs. The chips Blue and Miller attempted were aiken to a qb trying to block on a reverse lol...just terrible.

I think you get the picture though. They aren't really being left out on an island all that often. Adjustments have been made scheme wise to help them..mainly Davenport. Chips, trap & combo blocks and the like are being utilized regularly. The dilemma for BoB is how much of your offensive scheme are you willing/cann you afford to sacrifice for protection. There has to be some type of balance & those guys should be expected to handle their 1 on 1's at least some.

The calls for creativity in playcalling are limited by protection initiatives...that really are still are working based on last week.
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The scheme isn't working. Davenport and Lamm shouldn't be starting. Blue/Miller have been terrible in their attempts to chip and Griffin no better
 
JB said:
Watson is given leeway because he hasn't started even 16 games yet... so why is an OT that has started less than 8 in his normal position expected to be better? This OL has been together less than 1/2 season... it takes time. Who is responsible for that situation?

Just using your post as a launching point
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Thank you JB
 
JB said:
The scheme isn't working. Davenport and Lamm shouldn't be starting. Blue/Miller have been terrible in their attempts to chip and Griffin no better
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which brings us back full circle to the talent issue. There's no way a defense should be able to get pressure with a 3 man rush..The Bills did it often last week.
 
Mr teX said:
So now we're going to the "did u even play" stance? Lol. Why yes..yes i did play....qb and safety. Also have coached as well. Have you lol? On that level, yes you need coaching to learn the schemes and help with your technique that you should already have some basis & familiarity with from college..But the overall performance improvement to be able to play on that level comes from the raw talent that is present there with the player & the players own ability to apply said coaching. James Harrison got cut 7 times before turning into the monster he became. TB12 moved up from 5th string to starter in what 2-3 years. That was mostly the player doubling down on their efforts and learning how to apply the coaching they were being given.

You can't sit up here and tell me these guys are not being coached up to know what's most likely coming from their opponent week to week, They have a whole damn day dedicated to it during the week (gameplan installation day), they are also being critiqued & coached up during film sessions...before and after games. Nor can you tell me they don't work on technique every damn day of the week....that's what all those damn drills they do are for. You also can't tell me they don't have the opportunities themselves to work on that stuff on their own & as a group. They are professionals. Its all they do. So then you have to ask yourself, "what is the deciding factor then?

You'd be hard pressed to get a successful player to attribute a significant amount of their success to coaches...most would probably attribute it more to a veteran player before a coach....especially on that level. Most those guys will say something to the effect, "yeah i owe alot of my development to such & such.....but there was much more hard work and hours I put in to be the player i am too.
Click to expand...

so if its all about talent and not as much about coaching/scheme then why was Kelemete and Fulton both much better blockers and contributors on their offenses last season? Enough so that the Texans thought they could help here?
 
Shishkabob said:
It's funny how former NFL players will say how vital coaching is to a player's performance, but you a keyboard warrior wants to discredit it. Have you played sports in your life ever? If coaching isn't vital to a players development why did we let our DB coach go when KJo wasn't improving enough? Why did OB can his first OL coach because he thought he was hurting X's development? It is obvious O'Brien himself believes coaching plays a big role in a players development, why do you want to discredit it?

I get we missed on Solder, I am fine with them taking a chance and missing. I understand there weren't many other options out there. A lot of back up level talent which is generally what hits the FA market for OL. But Davenport, and Rankin haven't even been playing on a backup level. We saw last year first hand the dumpster fire that Kendall Lamm was, why couldn't they bring in someone to replace him at the 4th OT spot? Are you suggesting there were no FA better than Lamm? I get bringing in Henderson cheap 1 year deal with upside, but they could have brought in more and should have, at least for competitions sake.

It's a new OL they need time to gel right? Well then why did O'Brien barely play them in the preseason considering it was 5 guys who have really never played together before? How come with a young inexperienced LT, and new RT who hasn't played much in recent years did we not allocate more help to our oline in the first 3 games?(we were bottom 5 in the league in leaving in extra blockers) How come after 2 games(games 4&5) of allocating more help, and showing improvement in pass blocking did O'Brien revert back to doing what he did the first 3 games against Buffalo and not helping the line as much?

Why can't the interior of our line, which has our 3 best most experienced blockers on it not communicate and pick up simple stunts, and blitzes? Why do they have such a hard time working together in unison in the run game? Fulton and Kelemente didn't struggle with it in their previous stops. Yea sure new team, new system, but 6 weeks in and I have seen no improvement in that regard.

Through 6 weeks our QB has been hit 70 times, next closest team is at 49. They will essentially have to play 3 more games to get their QB hit as many times as Watson has, and I get it Watson has caused a lot of those hits on himself, but he has also escaped a lot more. Again the failings of the team will always fall directly on the shoulders of the HC. It is his job to make sure the coaches under him are coaching properly and getting the players to take to the coaching. We are now seeing 5 years of regression with our oline, and he still employs Devlin who has had 1 line in his entire NFL career who finished with an above average grade, and that Jets line had 3 pro bowlers on it. Devlin has never coached a line that didn't finish in the bottom 20 with penalties which screams poor coaching
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Why Obrien reverted back to that slop we seen in the first three games ? Shoots that's a easy one lol he has to run his type of philosophy/game plan. He has to prove to himself that it can and will work in the NFL.
 
Mr teX said:
So now we're going to the "did u even play" stance? Lol. Why yes..yes i did play....qb and safety. Also have coached as well. Have you lol? On that level, yes you need coaching to learn the schemes and help with your technique that you should already have some basis & familiarity with from college..But the overall performance improvement to be able to play on that level comes from the raw talent that is present there with the player & the players own ability to apply said coaching. James Harrison got cut 7 times before turning into the monster he became. TB12 moved up from 5th string to starter in what 2-3 years. That was mostly the player doubling down on their efforts and learning how to apply the coaching they were being given.

You can't sit up here and tell me these guys are not being coached up to know what's most likely coming from their opponent week to week, They have a whole damn day dedicated to it during the week (gameplan installation day), they are also being critiqued & coached up during film sessions...before and after games. Nor can you tell me they don't work on technique every damn day of the week....that's what all those damn drills they do are for. You also can't tell me they don't have the opportunities themselves to work on that stuff on their own & as a group. They are professionals. Its all they do. So then you have to ask yourself, "what is the deciding factor then?

You'd be hard pressed to get a successful player to attribute a significant amount of their success to coaches...most would probably attribute it more to a veteran player before a coach....especially on that level. Most those guys will say something to the effect, "yeah i owe alot of my development to such & such.....but there was much more hard work and hours I put in to be the player i am too.
Click to expand...


You're not the only one watching what's going on out there. So yes we can sit up in here and type to you," these guys are not being coached up".
 
Uncle Rico said:
so if its all about talent and not as much about coaching/scheme then why was Kelemete and Fulton both much better blockers and contributors on their offenses last season? Enough so that the Texans thought they could help here?
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Don't know if you can say they were "much better" blockers for the teams they played for last year. They were good for the roles they served on those particular teams which was as spot starters that could play multiple positions. If they were really that good, they would've supplanted whomever they were behind as both those guys have at least 4 years in the league prior to coming here. They at least look competent though. They were brought here by the Texans mainly for availability and limited options to improve. I have to believe that if we had our 1st & 2nd round pick, we take an offensive linemen with 1 of those picks.

& of course its about talent...Teams don't draft bums & coaches would rather give chance after chance to known bums like Erik Flowers and Luke Joekel than guys with lesser talent even 1 chance. Jobs are on the line.
 
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Mr teX said:
So...basically you wanted them to give up Rankin or Reid to go after a veteran o-linemen instead..gotcha.
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You always have to choose one or the other. The choices O'Brien has made are usually bad.

Getting Watson killed seems like the wrong choice to make
 
TheKDog said:
You always have to choose one or the other. The choices O'Brien has made are usually bad.

Getting Watson killed seems like the wrong choice to make
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The reality is, doesn't matter the choice he made, BoB would've been damned if he did, or damned if he didn't in your mind..you're not fooling anybody guy..
 
Mr teX said:
The reality is, doesn't matter the choice he made, BoB would've been damned if he did, or damned if he didn't in your mind..you're not fooling anybody guy..
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Not really. Like Crennel, he could actually do a good job making his unit top 10, then he wouldn't be "damned"

It's simple. He could stop sucking like he has for 5 years and people wouldn't say he should be fired
 
TheKDog said:
I personally have seen enough considering both of them have been here more than 1 year.
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Is this the 1st yr Gaine has been in charge?

Is this the 1st yr the GM/HC have been on the same page? Didn't Ricky basically fire Gaine? That should tell you who was calling the shots, but it wont.
 
TheKDog said:
Not really. Like Crennel, he could actually do a good job making his unit top 10, then he wouldn't be "damned"

It's simple. He could stop sucking like he has for 5 years and people wouldn't say he should be fired
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Great football critique there..You should start your own blog.:sarcasm:
 
JB said:
I saw only one of those sacks where a back chipped on Davenports side and that was a blitz pickup. I'm not trying to say Davenport doesn't suck, because it's obvious he does. But OB and Devlin keep putting him out there hoping for the best. Perhaps I didn't see your answer to my question about who was responsible for him being out there other than I did see 'he's a pro'.
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There was 1 sack where Griffin/Davenport were blocking the DE, the DE not only knocked Davenport down, he fell into Griffin tripping Griffin and the DE got a pressure.
 
Lol love the guys on here defending Bill. You guys are delusional as all hell if you think he’s a good coach. Do we lack talent on the OL? Yes. Is he doing a good job scheming to help them? Nope. The guy has never been a good offensive coach at any of his previous stops not sure why he gets credit for being a “genius”
 
amazing80 said:
Lol love the guys on here defending Bill. You guys are delusional as all hell if you think he’s a good coach. Do we lack talent on the OL? Yes. Is he doing a good job scheming to help them? Nope. The guy has never been a good offensive coach at any of his previous stops not sure why he gets credit for being a “genius”
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Good HC's, much like shut down corners don't exist. There are HC's with good talent and good Qb & there are those who don't have that. Show me a HC considered good without all that & you'll be the 1st one to do it.
 
Until a better option becomes available let’s make best of it. Maybe he’ll relent and bring in or promote internal candidate to become OC so he can focus on bigger picture.
 
beerlover said:
Until a better option becomes available let’s make best of it. Maybe he’ll relent and bring in or promote internal candidate to become OC so he can focus on bigger picture.
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Did that already with Godsey...Don't u remember? Fans were complaining about the playcalling back then too.
 
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steelbtexan said:
Is this the 1st yr Gaine has been in charge?

Is this the 1st yr the GM/HC have been on the same page? Didn't Ricky basically fire Gaine? That should tell you who was calling the shots, but it wont.
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There has never been any indication O'Brien didn't get the guys he wanted. He constantly got New England retreads or some bust he fell in love with in the draft. He didn't like Ricky. OB doesn't like a lot of people apparently.

Somehow Kubiak and Crennel worked fine with Rick building strong units (he was just a figuredhead GM anyway). O'Brien blamed Rick for his own failures.

O'Brien just has excuses, that's what I'm getting here.

Can't believe people want to see more of this OL and offense after 5 years.
 
Mr teX said:
Good HC's, much like shut down corners don't exist. There are HC's with good talent and good Qb & there are those who don't have that. Show me a HC considered good without all that & you'll be the 1st one to do it.
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so in your mind Hugh Jackson could've taken the Patriots to 8 super bowls, and won 5 of them?
 
Shishkabob said:
so in your mind Hugh Jackson could've taken the Patriots to 8 super bowls, and won 5 of them?
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Bill Belichick was a failed HC when he arrived in NE. Pretty sure noone thought 8 SB's were in the Pats future when he arrived..maybe 1 or 2 appearances.

Pete Carroll was failed HC when he arrived in SEA..pretty sure noone thought 2 SB's were in their future when he arrived...maybe an NFC championship or 2.

Sean Payton was an unproven 1st year HC when he arrived in NO...pretty sure noone knew what to expect from him when he arrived in NO & staked his career on an undersized qb coming off a potentially career ending injury..probably thought he was commiting career suicide.

Doug Pederson was an unproven 1st year HC when he arrived in PHI..pretty sure philly fans were displeased with him as the pick for HC...sure none of the fans envisioned he'd be the guy to take them to the SB........and win vs the juggernaut Pats........with a back qb no less.

See where i'm going with this.....You're not a good HC........... until you are & that usually coincides with finding your franchise qb and enough talent to work with.
 
Mr teX said:
Bill Belichick was a failed HC when he arrived in NE. Pretty sure noone thought 8 SB's were in the Pats future when he arrived..maybe 1 or 2 appearances.

Pete Carroll was failed HC when he arrived in SEA..pretty sure noone thought 2 SB's were in their future when he arrived...maybe an NFC championship or 2.

Sean Payton was an unproven 1st year HC when he arrived in NO...pretty sure noone knew what to expect from him when he arrived in NO & staked his career on an undersized qb coming off a potentially career ending injury..probably thought he was commiting career suicide.

Doug Pederson was an unproven 1st year HC when he arrived in PHI..pretty sure philly fans were displeased with him as the pick for HC...sure none of the fans envisioned he'd be the guy to take them to the SB........and win vs the juggernaut Pats........with a back qb no less.

See where i'm going with this.....You're not a good HC........... until you are & that usually coincides with finding your franchise qb and enough talent to work with.
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That describes Kubiak.

I mean, there are a lot of good coordinators who aren't good coaches. But O'Brien is somehow not good at either.
 
TheKDog said:
There has never been any indication O'Brien didn't get the guys he wanted. He constantly got New England retreads or some bust he fell in love with in the draft. He didn't like Ricky. OB doesn't like a lot of people apparently.

Somehow Kubiak and Crennel worked fine with Rick building strong units (he was just a figuredhead GM anyway). O'Brien blamed Rick for his own failures.

O'Brien just has excuses, that's what I'm getting here.

Can't believe people want to see more of this OL and offense after 5 years.
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The McNair's action should tell you this post isn't true.

BTW, you're showing your lack of Texans history knowledge which is probably fueled by your hatred of all things BOB, Crennel never has worked for Kubiak.
 
MightyTExan said:
4-12 record + extension = nope
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Like I said upthread, if Gaine was here last yr I would agree with you, but he wasn't and unlike you the McNair's are willing to give him a fir chance. After his 1st draft without a pick in the 1st rd (Thanks Ricky) and still finding starters (Unlike Ricky) I'm glad the McNair's dont think like you do. There's probably a good reason they're where they are and you're where you are.
 
amazing80 said:
Lol love the guys on here defending Bill. You guys are delusional as all hell if you think he’s a good coach. Do we lack talent on the OL? Yes. Is he doing a good job scheming to help them? Nope. The guy has never been a good offensive coach at any of his previous stops not sure why he gets credit for being a “genius”
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Dont think I'm defending BOB, I'm just saying Gaine/BOB deserve to atleast get a full compliment of draft picks before getting rid of them. What I find hilarious is the same people who were good with hanging with Kubiak/Ricky in 2010 are the same guys that aren't even willing to give Gaine/BOB a full draft class before kicking them to the curb.
 
steelbtexan said:
The McNair's action should tell you this post isn't true.

BTW, you're showing your lack of Texans history knowledge which is probably fueled by your hatred of all things BOB, Crennel never has worked for Kubiak.
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I never said Crennel worked with Kubiak. I said he built good defenses working with Smith
 
steelbtexan said:
Dont think I'm defending BOB, I'm just saying Gaine/BOB deserve to atleast get a full compliment of draft picks before getting rid of them. What I find hilarious is the same people who were good with hanging with Kubiak/Ricky in 2010 are the same guys that aren't even willing to give Gaine/BOB a full draft class before kicking them to the curb.
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O'Brien has had multiple drafts. Just because he didn't like Rick doesn't mean we can't evaluate that he's done a bad job
 
TheKDog said:
I never said Crennel worked with Kubiak. I said he built good defenses working with Smith
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I didn't read your post correctly.

Still doesn't change the fact that rds 2-4 under Ricky generally sucked and Gaine nailed his 1st draft with picks Ricky generally whiffed on. Look at how many 1st rd picks are on defense compared to the offense and that will give you your answer as to why the defense has looked better. BTW, the defense hasn't looked all that great this yr.
 
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