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FIRE O'BRIEN NOW!!!

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disaacks3

Moderator
Staff member
I don't at all disagree with what you've said here ... But.

The problem was that it didn't help hide what he wasn't good at .... and let him hold the ball too long and refuse to take those easy throws that move the sticks.

In fact , I'd go so far as to say it exacerbated his faults / weaknesses because of all that downfield stuff on the vast majority of plays allowing him an excuse to hang onto the ball.

Basically they were just a bad fit .... Watson needs as well structured , well disciplined scheme that makes him get the ball out quick unless the scoreboard dictates otherwise.

Save that hero ball crap for when you need a miracle.
I think a moderately well-executed WCO, or an RPO with the right personnel would be ideal for his skill set. The version of EP we’ve run (and admittedly tweaked “some” for Watson’s benefit) has been underwhelming, no doubt due in no small part to the receivers we’ve thrown at it.
The “getting the ball out quick” part requires the receivers (and QB) in EP to make reads faster than our personnel have been able to execute.


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Corrosion

Idealist
Staff member
I think a moderately well-executed WCO, or an RPO with the right personnel would be ideal for his skill set. The version of EP we’ve run (and admittedly tweaked “some” for Watson’s benefit) has been underwhelming, no doubt due in no small part to the receivers we’ve thrown at it.
The “getting the ball out quick” part requires the receivers (and QB) in EP to make reads faster than our personnel have been able to execute.


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And you expect that to change just because they change the system ?


Sure , a WCO is going to help by some play designs being long winded / slow developing .... but those deep drops off of play action are few and far between. What about the other 85% of the playbook ?

There are still a lot of option routes in the WCO ... tho the reads are much easier for the route runners.

Decisions still need to be made much faster than they have been by our QB or the route runners.
 

Mr teX

Hall of Fame
I think a moderately well-executed WCO, or an RPO with the right personnel would be ideal for his skill set. The version of EP we’ve run (and admittedly tweaked “some” for Watson’s benefit) has been underwhelming, no doubt due in no small part to the receivers we’ve thrown at it.
The “getting the ball out quick” part requires the receivers (and QB) in EP to make reads faster than our personnel have been able to execute.


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EVERY offense requires the WR's and QB to be on the same page..that's not exclusive to BoB's version of the EP or anyone's version of any system. But if you want to be perfectly honest, the WR/QB and HC seeing the same things is actually more critical to WCO systems than almost any other.

What it comes down to is whether the qb takes those quick window throws or not. I think in an effort to cater to DW4's greatest strength as a passer (throwing it deep down field) I think the reads were set up long to short for his benefit. In the base WCO, reads are set up short to long.

Bottom line is, the scheme itself was never really the problem imo....Sure there were a few things that could've been done in the scheme to help the offense move a little bit better, but the implementation & execution on the field was at least 50% of the issues imo & alot of that is on the player(s) themselves.
 

76Texan

Hall of Fame
And you expect that to change just because they change the system ?


Sure , a WCO is going to help by some play designs being long winded / slow developing .... but those deep drops off of play action are few and far between. What about the other 85% of the playbook ?

There are still a lot of option routes in the WCO ... tho the reads are much easier for the route runners.

Decisions still need to be made much faster than they have been by our QB or the route runners.
The Rams run 32% PA Pass for Goff.

https://www.si.com/nfl/rams/news/how-rams-improve-play-action#:~:text=Since McVay took over as,times they have been successful.

I think I've seen higher numbers some year, for some team.

One ought to remember that the PA is also tied in with an effective running game.
When done right, the QB is not left with a crazy number of third and long.
That will cut into any QB's penchant to play Hero Ball, if there's such thing.

You can then have sub-packages with RPO, moving the pocket along with the QB, RB screens, WR tunnel screens and jet sweeps (all high percentage play if drawn up and implemented correctly).

Just a few things on the top of the head.
 

thunderkyss

Just win baby!!!
Staff member
Contributor's Club
it’s not about what happened..it was time for BoB to go. But all the “new found hope” and all the glee about this man losing his job...it’s silly imo simply b/c there’s a flip side to that hope too that fans rarely ever acknowledge....And statistically, it’s actually more likely that the next guy coming in will be equally average.. but if we’re unlucky he could be worse. Fans in their jubilation will ignore that though.
I don't know if it's going to be ignored. We're ready, been ready, for a different kind of average.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
I actually think O'Brien would do well with the Titans as they are currently constructed. I'd be more than happy (ecstatic) to find out. Trade HC's. Because I believe Vrabel, a defensive minded head coach, could do better coaching the offense here than OB has. He would at least know to get out of the way.

Now would I wish such a horrible fate on the Titans? Yes. Yes I would. Even though I honestly feel that O'Brien's philosophy lines up with how the Titans play ball on offense, he would go there and insist on changing it completely just because of his arrogance. And he'd probably trade Henry and Tennessee's next years 1st round pick for Blake Bortles.
I think what @steelbtexan was getting at is in regards to the offense and its effectiveness with Watson and the ongoing narrative that all the offensive issues were OB's fault - No one open , no easy checkdowns Vs Watson failing to execute easy plays bla bla bla ....

Anther comment on Clowney - He wanted Big Money for a lot of years , imagine had they given him that .... we'd be roasting OB for it now with the way he's played recently. That was a no win situation.

Tunsil .... bad deal.
Hopkins .... BAD DEAL
Watson extension .... bad deal.
Those bad deals were made.out of desperation and management meddling.

Tunsil- deal was made to try to give DW4 the protection he needed to improve. Unfortunately that improvement didn't happen and BOB's looking for a job today.

Nuk trade- definitely mgmt meddling

DW4 re-signing definitely mgmt.
 

thunderkyss

Just win baby!!!
Staff member
Contributor's Club
Watson came out of college with three amazing attributes. Throwing quick passes in rhythm, buying time and hitting teams deep with accuracy, and being an RPO savant. None of those were a focus for this team. OB stripped him more and more every year of his natural talent and forced him to overthink things. We will see over the next few weeks what the real Watson is comfortable with. Because there is no doubt he will force his style of play on this coaching staff
You're assuming BO'b was telling Watson not to pull the ball & run on those RPO looks.


BO'bs gone & we'll see if Watson is more apt to keep it in a few days. I honestly don't think it was BO'b telling him not to run.

There was a play Sunday, I don't remember the details, but we were in an empty set. Watson drops back to throw, no one is open. He pulls the ball down, takes off running straight ahead through a big gap. He changes his mind, wants to throw it, then pulls it down again & tries to run, only now, the spy (big defensive lineman, not an athletic LB or DB) closed the gap & takes him down for a one yard gain.

The Deshaun Watson we drafted would have pulled it down & been gone. That Dl would have no chance of an open field tackle on the DeShaun Watson we drafted.

That guy out there Sunday made it easy & has been making it easy for quite a few games now to beat him. I don't think those decisions (because there's been a lot of them) are on BO'b. But we'll see come Sunday. If he's removed that stuff from his game, we just wasted $111MM.
 

Mr teX

Hall of Fame
utilizing some rpos in a league where nearly every quasi mobile quarterback is doing it isnt molding to his strengths. Its just a copy cat league and we weren't the first to do it- or do it more often then everyone else. Drawing up pass plays were every route is 15 yards deep or deeper doesn't help your qb when the line can't pass protect for longer then 2 seconds. Drawing up pass plays where multiple wrs stem within 5-7 yards of one another is killer and Montana himself wouldn't do well there. Those waggles, boots, naked boots, end arounds, and misdirection plays were highlighted in a few games and they worked. They worked well in the 6-9 games we ever used them and then they disappeared. THAT WAS USING DW. Show me a hot route. Show me consistent blitz pick up. Show me a blocking scheme that shifts by design the qb pocket when overloaded on 1 side allowing dw to use his mobility "intentionally" buying wrs more time. Show me a delayed route by a rb and te. Show me a rb and te with a block/route release option. Show me a legit screen. Show me an offense that allows the qb to get in rythm with up tempo play calling. Show me a coach who supports his team and offense with reasonable challenges and clock management.
Mostly all of this has nothing to do with the scheme itself catering/flexing to DW4's strengths as a passer or runner. Furthermore, You don't completely revamp your entire offense b/c your offensive line can't block or effectively pass protect. You adjust it a little but that's about it. Aside from that, I could show you examples of all this stuff you claim was non existent in the scheme to help DW4 on tape from this year's games alone, but you're pretty well entrenched & its pointless considering that BoB is gone...I'll just choose to let you believe what you want to believe.

Nah. I didn't see it. I saw run on first down for a yard. Second down run for nothing. Forcing 3rd and long effectively castrating your qb again and again.
The whole "run on 1st down every time" thing has been disproven so many times by so many different people it's not even worth discussing anymore. Another 1 of those pointless things to try to disprove to people who want to ignore what the reality actually was.

And 1 more cherry for your obrien slushi that taste more like tears then anything else, he traded one of the better wrs of the decade and dw's only go to guy for pennies on the dollar.
Well again i will ask you since not one of you would like to answer it. What exactly did having Nuk the prior 3-4 years with DW4 and numerous other QBs do to help the offense become elite? Answer: not a damn thing. DW4 is still on track to get his customary 25-26 pass TD's, we still got off to slow starts & the offense still largely sucked.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
I think a moderately well-executed WCO, or an RPO with the right personnel would be ideal for his skill set. The version of EP we’ve run (and admittedly tweaked “some” for Watson’s benefit) has been underwhelming, no doubt due in no small part to the receivers we’ve thrown at it.
The “getting the ball out quick” part requires the receivers (and QB) in EP to make reads faster than our personnel have been able to execute.


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So it's all on the receivers?
 

Mr teX

Hall of Fame
The Rams run 32% PA Pass for Goff.

https://www.si.com/nfl/rams/news/how-rams-improve-play-action#:~:text=Since McVay took over as,times they have been successful.

I think I've seen higher numbers some year, for some team.

One ought to remember that the PA is also tied in with an effective running game.
When done right, the QB is not left with a crazy number of third and long.
That will cut into any QB's penchant to play Hero Ball, if there's such thing.

You can then have sub-packages with RPO, moving the pocket along with the QB, RB screens, WR tunnel screens and jet sweeps (all high percentage play if drawn up and implemented correctly).

Just a few things on the top of the head.
Offenses work b/c:

3-5% play design / scheme
10% play calling/timing of the called play
30-40% talent
50% + QB decision making/execution/accuracy etc..

You guys are haggling over that 3-10% of how the offense could be better. In which my admittedly unempircal estimation is that there's probably room for about a 3-4% improvement there that would help.

By contrast I believe there's probably a 10-12% chance for improvement in that bottom 50% that would probably have more of an immediate impact on the offense.
 

76Texan

Hall of Fame
Offenses work b/c:

3-5% play design / scheme
10% play calling/timing of the called play
30-40% talent
50% + QB decision making/execution/accuracy etc..

You guys are haggling over that 3-10% of how the offense could be better. In which my admittedly unempircal estimation is that there's probably room for about a 3-4% improvement there that would help.

By contrast I believe there's probably a 10-12% chance for improvement in that bottom 50% that would probably have more of an immediate impact on the offense.
You miss the important point:
The small percentage are big plays.

Another point is that O'Brien hasn't been helping the offensive line.
 

Earl34

Veteran
Those bad deals were made.out of desperation and management meddling.

Tunsil- deal was made to try to give DW4 the protection he needed to improve. Unfortunately that improvement didn't happen and BOB's looking for a job today.

Nuk trade- definitely mgmt meddling

DW4 re-signing definitely mgmt.
Sounds like a bunch of excuses.
  • What's the point of getting Tunsil to give DW4 protection to improve without replacing Devlin? Did mgmt keep him from replacing Devlin?
  • Brian Diaboll was with the Patriots and had experience with the EP offense. The Bills hired him from Alabama. He was available for O'Brien to hire him. Did mgmt keep O'Brien from hiring an experienced OC with EP experience?
  • Did mgmt make him promote Tim Kelly?
  • Did mgmt make him give Mercilus that contract?
  • Did mgmt make him over pay for multiple players on the roster?
Finally, you always want to make it seem like O'Brien is sitting in a corner and decisions are being made without his input. There is no way a guy with a reputation for being outspoken and ill tempered is sitting in a room and not voicing his opinion. You went from blaming Ricky to now blaming mgmt or DW4 for O'Brien's failures.

For years, the complaint was fans didn't know who was responsible for this or that decision. Now we have one person who is the OC/HC/GM and you're still trying to deflect the blame to mgmt or the QB.
 
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Mr teX

Hall of Fame
You miss the important point:
The small percentage are big plays.

Another point is that O'Brien hasn't been helping the offensive line.
DW4 will make his share of big plays throughout a season b/c that's what he's elite at so i would argue that that's something that you don't really need to worry about. What the offense needs...has been needing really, is consistent, decision making coming from the QB position. Just by him getting the ball out on time & taking the short stuff and what the defense is giving him a little more consistently it helps the offense out sooo much. By doing that:

It helps the offense stay out of 3rd and longs
It helps the o-line out b/c they shouldn't be asked to hold blocks for 4+ seconds every time he drops back for a pass. & when he's holding holding holding, that's exactly what he's asking the o-line to do. Defenses are too good for that to be something they consistently have to do.
It helps the offense establish some sort of rhythm by avoiding some of the 3 & outs b/c chances are you're going to be converting some of those 3rd and shorts & be able to stay on the field longer.

1 simple thing...& it doesn't require the offense to "scheme" it in either. He can take the short stuff like that in any offense.
 

76Texan

Hall of Fame
DW4 will make his share of big plays throughout a season b/c that's what he's elite at so i would argue that that's something that you don't really need to worry about. What the offense needs...has been needing really, is consistent, decision making coming from the QB position. Just by him getting the ball out on time & taking the short stuff and what the defense is giving him a little more consistently it helps the offense out sooo much. By doing that:

It helps the offense stay out of 3rd and longs
It helps the o-line out b/c they shouldn't be asked to hold blocks for 4+ seconds every time he drops back for a pass. & when he's holding holding holding, that's exactly what he's asking the o-line to do. Defenses are too good for that to be something they consistently have to do.
It helps the offense establish some sort of rhythm by avoiding some of the 3 & outs b/c chances are you're going to be converting some of those 3rd and shorts & be able to stay on the field longer.

1 simple thing...& it doesn't require the offense to "scheme" it in either. He can take the short stuff like that in any offense.
Sure, but play design and play calling matters.

I had noted a number of big plays from Cousins (vs. Texans) in one of the threads.
There were more than enough to boost an offense.

Then Kubiak gave Cousins at least another half dozen quick shots downfield where his receiver is in one-on-one with the CB. It's too quick for the safety to come over.

So really, Watson can have his fix (if he has one) and can still run the offense in a more controlled manner just the same.
That's what has been happening to Tannehill and Mayfield as well.
 

Earl34

Veteran
DW4 will make his share of big plays throughout a season b/c that's what he's elite at so i would argue that that's something that you don't really need to worry about. What the offense needs...has been needing really, is consistent, decision making coming from the QB position. Just by him getting the ball out on time & taking the short stuff and what the defense is giving him a little more consistently it helps the offense out sooo much. By doing that:

It helps the offense stay out of 3rd and longs
It helps the o-line out b/c they shouldn't be asked to hold blocks for 4+ seconds every time he drops back for a pass. & when he's holding holding holding, that's exactly what he's asking the o-line to do. Defenses are too good for that to be something they consistently have to do.
It helps the offense establish some sort of rhythm by avoiding some of the 3 & outs b/c chances are you're going to be converting some of those 3rd and shorts & be able to stay on the field longer.

1 simple thing...& it doesn't require the offense to "scheme" it in either. He can take the short stuff like that in any offense.
Valid points. So, as an OC how do you help or force that QB to take the short stuff more often? You can't say he cannot do it because we have seen the QB take the short stuff for series, quarters, and even games. As a OC, what plays do you call with defined options to speed up the decision making? As an OC, what are you doing to help the running game to get into better 3rd down situations?
 

dream_team

Hall of Fame
You're assuming BO'b was telling Watson not to pull the ball & run on those RPO looks.


BO'bs gone & we'll see if Watson is more apt to keep it in a few days. I honestly don't think it was BO'b telling him not to run.

There was a play Sunday, I don't remember the details, but we were in an empty set. Watson drops back to throw, no one is open. He pulls the ball down, takes off running straight ahead through a big gap. He changes his mind, wants to throw it, then pulls it down again & tries to run, only now, the spy (big defensive lineman, not an athletic LB or DB) closed the gap & takes him down for a one yard gain.

The Deshaun Watson we drafted would have pulled it down & been gone. That Dl would have no chance of an open field tackle on the DeShaun Watson we drafted.

That guy out there Sunday made it easy & has been making it easy for quite a few games now to beat him. I don't think those decisions (because there's been a lot of them) are on BO'b. But we'll see come Sunday. If he's removed that stuff from his game, we just wasted $111MM.
I agree with you. I want DW4 to tuck and run more often. Not a drastic amount more, but maybe 2-3 times more a game. Especially if it's 1st or 2nd down and he could possibly gain 4+ yards.

At the same time, we keep hearing him say that BOB is telling him to "be patient" and "trust the protection". If Watson reads the defense, and he knows someone is about to come open, I want him to trust the protection if needed. Especially if there's less pass rushers vs blockers. I don't want DW4 to become a QB that doesn't look downfield and runs as soon as things get a little murky.

It's a fine line he'll have to balance.
 

Mr teX

Hall of Fame
Valid points. So, as an OC how do you help or force that QB to take the short stuff more often? You can't say he cannot do it because we have seen the QB take the short stuff for series, quarters, and even games. As a OC, what plays do you call with defined options to speed up the decision making? As an OC, what are you doing to help the running game to get into better 3rd down situations?
You can:

call short quick 1 read pass plays.....which was actually done a few times early in the game......& DW4 1-hopped a few of them to the WR/RB's that contributed to some 3rd and longs we faced early.
You can go empty and simplify reads for short quick pass plays....we did that with mixed results.
You can change his order of reading things to short to long instead of vice versa....

OR......you can let your QB get a feel for how the defense is playing and let him make the decision on when to force it and when to check it down within the plays called like almost every OC does.

See the problem with the 1st 2 options is it limits the types of plays you can call to quick hitters, it requires a sustained level of execution as often times scoring drives that are primarily comprised of these types of plays go 10+ plays. And it in the case of going empty, it can compromise pass pro b/c you're limited to your 5 o-linemen. So if those db's start driving on those quick hitting slants, the qb doesn't have time to go to anyone else & that's that.

The best option is to call plays normally & trust that your qb is going to make the best decision & take the underneath stuff if the deeper stuff isn't there.
 

Mr teX

Hall of Fame
Sure, but play design and play calling matters.

I had noted a number of big plays from Cousins (vs. Texans) in one of the threads.
There were more than enough to boost an offense.

Then Kubiak gave Cousins at least another half dozen quick shots downfield where his receiver is in one-on-one with the CB. It's too quick for the safety to come over.

So really, Watson can have his fix (if he has one) and can still run the offense in a more controlled manner just the same.
That's what has been happening to Tannehill and Mayfield as well.
Sure it does, but not nearly as much as you think. There was nothing extraordinary about Kubiak's playcalls & design of those quick shots..everybody's offense has those type of fly routes in their playbook & it had even less to do with design. The bottom line is Justin Jefferson was just better than Hargreaves.......who had good position i might add. Cousins' throw was just better. I would give his playcall a little credit........... if he had Justin Jefferson matched up against a LB..but that wasn't the case.
 

76Texan

Hall of Fame
Sure it does, but not nearly as much as you think. There was nothing extraordinary about Kubiak's playcalls & design of those quick shots..everybody's offense has those type of fly routes in their playbook & it had even less to do with design. The bottom line is Justin Jefferson was just better than Hargreaves.......who had good position i might add. Cousins' throw was just better. I would give his playcall a little credit........... if he had Justin Jefferson matched up against a LB..but that wasn't the case.
Those shots are only extras.

When you have a QB with a strong arm like Watson and you have a speedy receiver like Fuller, or a big posession receiver (like Hopkins), I definitely think you should give them at least a couple of shots a game.

Or when you have a mismatch; I mean like with all those rookie CB on the Vikings squad, an OC really should give even their number 2/3 like Stills and Cobbs some shots, too.
 

Mr teX

Hall of Fame
Those shots are only extras.

When you have a QB with a strong arm like Watson and you have a speedy receiver like Fuller, or a big posession receiver (like Hopkins), I definitely think you should give them at least a couple of shots a game.

Or when you have a mismatch; I mean like with all those rookie CB on the Vikings squad, an OC really should give even their number 2/3 like Stills and Cobbs some shots, too.
agreed, but those become throw away plays if teams are already playing you for the deep pass plays..which the Vikings were alot of the times.
 

disaacks3

Moderator
Staff member
And you expect that to change just because they change the system ?


Sure , a WCO is going to help by some play designs being long winded / slow developing .... but those deep drops off of play action are few and far between. What about the other 85% of the playbook ?

There are still a lot of option routes in the WCO ... tho the reads are much easier for the route runners.

Decisions still need to be made much faster than they have been by our QB or the route runners.
There’s a fine line between modifying “your” system to adapt to your roster’s strengths and trying to force a round peg into a square hole.

Honestly, I see it akin to trying to use ZBS linemen in a power running game. You “can”, but you’re far more likely to succeed with guys better suited to the role.

Either: We have the personnel to succeed in our current system (but they were failed by coaching).

We have the personnel to succeed in another system, but either the GM brought in players poorly suited to what we had in place, or the coaching didn’t adapt his system or the players to his adequately.

We lack the personnel to be successful in any system and our GM has completely failed us.


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DBCooper

Outlaw
Contributor's Club
And you expect that to change just because they change the system ?


Sure , a WCO is going to help by some play designs being long winded / slow developing .... but those deep drops off of play action are few and far between. What about the other 85% of the playbook ?

There are still a lot of option routes in the WCO ... tho the reads are much easier for the route runners.

Decisions still need to be made much faster than they have been by our QB or the route runners.
They need to scheme around the best receiver we have, unfortunately that’s Randall Cobb but they could improve the pace tremendously using him correctly.
 

76Texan

Hall of Fame
agreed, but those become throw away plays if teams are already playing you for the deep pass plays..which the Vikings were alot of the times.
First series.
Third and 2.
They had to guard the run.
I'd send the Y Fuller on a deep route to the right instead of that up and in.
If the CB stays in phase, adjust it to a 10-15 yd comebacker.
I'd run the X maybe on a post, and the Z on a seam to confuse the deep safety.
Even if it doesn't go anywhere, it'll put the D on notice.

....

On the 3rd and 6 on the second series, I may run a comebacker on either side, now that the boundary corners had been served notice.

Just some ideas; it doesn't have to be those exact route combos.
 

TheMatrix31

Hall of Fame
by win/loss record
By playoff appearances
By division crowns

...you know all the objective stuff y’all like to ignore when y’all have a narrative
Ya well I actually watched the games and watched the playoff games that our now former king led us to so none of that **** you posted means jack to me.

Former. What a beautiful word.
 

Mr teX

Hall of Fame
Ya well I actually watched the games and watched the playoff games that our now former king led us to so none of that **** you posted means jack to me.

Former. What a beautiful word.
Doesn't matter what it means to you, its what in fact makes him an above average HC...period end of story.
 
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