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FIRE O'BRIEN NOW!!!

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76Texan

Hall of Fame
It’s always the personnel and implementation. Every system used and prevalent in the NFL is and has been proven...
System is too general of a term.
Two HC running a WCO may emphasize different things.

There are always something new, and something old that becomes new again.

Rules changes, training regimes, how human develop over the years, they all bring new things.

There were no ZBS before.
RPO came back in a variety of style.
The wild cat .
The run and shoot.

There's no telling about the future.
 

Mr teX

Hall of Fame
Getting rid of Hop was extremely bold. He’s top 3 at his position. I can’t believe anyone would attempt to play down what he meant and brought to this team.

He was top 3 with us for at least the prior 3...what did that get us...and what’s it getting AZ right now?

Enjoy your “victory” today bro..I’m about the Texans and short of the next HC coming in and being Joe Philbin level horrible, I will eval him the same way I did BoB...objectively.
 

Mr teX

Hall of Fame
System is too general of a term.
Two HC running a WCO may emphasize different things.

There are always something new, and something old that becomes new again.

Rules changes, training regimes, how human develop over the years, they all bring new things.

There were no ZBS before.
RPO came back in a variety of style.
The wild cat .
The run and shoot.

There's no telling about the future.
The “bones” of a system is what I’m talking about...because they all carry the same concepts. The “snag” concept is the same in the WCO as it is in the EP as it is the air raid.

Things like the RPO and wildcat aren’t systems, they’re just sub packages that can be added to any system.
 

Texansballer74

Hall of Fame
He was top 3 with us for at least the prior 3...what did that get us...and what’s it getting AZ right now?

Enjoy your “victory” today bro..I’m about the Texans and short of the next HC coming in and being Joe Philbin level horrible, I will eval him the same way I did BoB...objectively.
Dude you just love to disagree and argue. Moving right along. Oh wait you still don’t get rid of you freakin best players and don’t get equal value or better in return.
 

Mr teX

Hall of Fame
Dude you just love to disagree and argue. Moving right along. Oh wait you still don’t get rid of you freakin best players and don’t get equal value or better in return.
whatever dude..you just can’t stand the idea that there’s often times a viable alternative way to look at things that doesn’t involve the prevailing narrative.

just be happy you got what you wanted.
 

76Texan

Hall of Fame
The “bones” of a system is what I’m talking about...because they all carry the same concepts. The “snag” concept is the same in the WCO as it is in the EP as it is the air raid.

Things like the RPO and wildcat aren’t systems, they’re just sub packages that can be added to any system.
Yeah, but there are a whole lot of difference on how to run the RPO since its beginning a long time ago.
From the Veer, to the wishbone.
Morris, Matzlahn (sp?), Myers, Swinney, they all do it differently.

In the words of Swinney: "It's a lot of fun marrying different things".

And that's the innovation I'm talking about.
 

amazing80

Fire Billy O
whatever dude..you just can’t stand the idea that there’s often times a viable alternative way to look at things that doesn’t involve the prevailing narrative.

just be happy you got what you wanted.
You are the least objective person on this site besides Steel.
 

76Texan

Hall of Fame
Every system that’s prevalent in the NFL has flaws. the zone blocking WCO we ran under Kubiak was bueatiful to watch...when we could run the ball. When we couldn’t a lot of the playbook was pretty much dead b/c a lot of it came off play action.
As far as marrying the ZBS with the WCO, Kubiak himself had gone through transformation as the years went by.
He and Gibbs began experimenting different linemen to pull, more misdirections, more formations.
Then in the last few years with the Texans, they added the gap scheme.

So, one never knows what things may look like in the future.
 

banned1976

All Pro
I remember this same jubilation when Kubes was fired...Its universal....Fans never learn
So if a 2-14 season isn’t bad enough to get a coach fired, what is? 1-15? 0-16? Multiple winless seasons?

As great of a guy I think Kubiak is, he had been here long enough without winning an AFC championship that firing him was justified. O’Brien’s situation is a little different because he was also the GM. What wasn’t different were the playoff failures. O’Brien just did it in spectacular fashion...historic, even.

Yes, I’m happy the team is moving in a different direction. Maybe O’Brien will walk into a ready made championship like Kubiak did, and that’s fine. Who cares. David Carr has a super bowl ring, too. O’Brien was no more likely to build a super bowl team here as Carr was to lead one on the field.
 

amazing80

Fire Billy O
I remember this same jubilation when Kubes was fired...Its universal....Fans never learn
Except they were for totally different reasons. We used logic and sound reason to form our opinion, not give them excuses like you do. Kubiak was a brilliant offensive coordinator who hasn’t accomplished anything without a HOF QB and a legendary defense in Denver. He is back to being an OC now. He can design a scheme with the best of them, but cannot handle all the duties of HC and his loyalty clouds his judgement, IE Schaub.

OB never produced a good offense outside of a HOF QB and legendary offensive staff. His teams here won on defense and a terrible division. Once teams got better in the playoffs we got smoked. He was fool’s gold.
 

Mr teX

Hall of Fame
Yep,

Hate for there to be differing ideas.

Good thing is the DW4 fans are going to have to place the blame somewhere else. Where do you think they're going to place the blame?
DW4 will be fine. I believe if he could ball out in BoB’s system he will ball out in any system...but u can already see the narrative being shaped on Twitter and on here in some respects regarding Easterby....Folks lamenting that “he has Cal’s ear....” and his lack of a die hard resume in football...and how he should’ve been fired too.

These same folks wanting that dude gone quite likely don’t even realize that he very well could’ve been the reason they got what they wanted with BoB being shipped out of here. They should be thanking that dude.
 

Mr teX

Hall of Fame
So what are you saying?

In your opinion, what should have happened?
it’s not about what happened..it was time for BoB to go. But all the “new found hope” and all the glee about this man losing his job...it’s silly imo simply b/c there’s a flip side to that hope too that fans rarely ever acknowledge....And statistically, it’s actually more likely that the next guy coming in will be equally average.. but if we’re unlucky he could be worse. Fans in their jubilation will ignore that though.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
I think Watson can beat teams from the pocket, I think OB gave him too much to think about and it slowed things down for him. I do think DW needs to get better, I just don’t think OB is the one to help him. I was talking with a friend the other day and we couldn’t think of one player that had gotten a lot better under OB. I know Fitz had a good year under OB, but I don’t think he got a lot better.
To much to think about.

Hmmm
 

Mr teX

Hall of Fame
Except they were for totally different reasons. We used logic and sound reason to form our opinion, not give them excuses like you do. Kubiak was a brilliant offensive coordinator who hasn’t accomplished anything without a HOF QB and a legendary defense in Denver. He is back to being an OC now. He can design a scheme with the best of them, but cannot handle all the duties of HC and his loyalty clouds his judgement, IE Schaub.

OB never produced a good offense outside of a HOF QB and legendary offensive staff. His teams here won on defense and a terrible division. Once teams got better in the playoffs we got smoked. He was fool’s gold.
Brian Billick..OCfor the 98’ Vikings...terrible Ravens offenses as the HC of the Ravens

Steve Wilks..defensive guy whose defenses in AZ got him fired after 1 year as the HC of the Cardinals.

Rod Marinelli -defensive guy whose defenses got him fired after 1 0-16 season as the Lions HC.

Charlie Weis - OC for those early Pats teams...failed in numerous HC gigs in college and pros...offenses were awful.

Romeo Crennel..DC of those early Pats teams failed at numerous spots with terrible defenses in KC, Cleveland

Ken whisenhunt....you should get the pint by now..

IOW, The graveyard of HC is full of guys whose teams were terrible on the sides of the ball they were supposed “experts” on. BoB is no different than any of the guys I name above.


So while you’re getting all giddy about some unknown guy with a pedigree on offense, I’ll sit back and grade him objectively as a HC...b/c that’s what the job is HC, not OC..not playcaller or “offense designer”. The skill set is different and the most important skill set is hiring personnel that can best help u curate your vision.

what did Kubiak’s great offensive pedigree do for us here under him? What did those top ranked offenses get us? Dick, that’s what. Furthermore, BoB was able to accomplish more here than Kubiak and his great pedigree of offensive ball...I say all that to say pedigree means nothing and it’s highly likely that whomever is brought in it won’t mean a whole lot either except to fans who think that their previous success somewhere else is guaranteed to translate to us.

It’s not...
 

disaacks3

Moderator
Staff member
it’s not about what happened..it was time for BoB to go. But all the “new found hope” and all the glee about this man losing his job...it’s silly imo simply b/c there’s a flip side to that hope too that fans rarely ever acknowledge....And statistically, it’s actually more likely that the next guy coming in will be equally average.. but if we’re unlucky he could be worse. Fans in their jubilation will ignore that though.
And that’s different from any NFL coach being fired before how? Statistically, most of them are average. We have a grand sample size of three head coaches here.

Capers was hired solely on his prior experience with an expansion team, but with worse rules around the expansion draft than he’d had the first time. Kubiak had lost the team and it showed. O’Brien was on the verge of ruining the confidence of our very talented young QB...that we’ve invested heavily in, yet crippled him by taking away his favorite target and not playing to his strengths. He was the anti-Parcells when it came to adapting his system to the talent he had.

O’Brien is relatively successful for a Belichick tree guy, but that’s a pretty low bar. The only question now becomes how long it will take to rebuild the roster on both sides of the ball before contracts start running out.
 

amazing80

Fire Billy O
Brian Billick..OCfor the 98’ Vikings...terrible Ravens offenses as the HC of the Ravens

Steve Wilks..defensive guy whose defenses in AZ got him fired after 1 year as the HC of the Cardinals.

Rod Marinelli -defensive guy whose defenses got him fired after 1 0-16 season as the Lions HC.

Charlie Weis - OC for those early Pats teams...failed in numerous HC gigs in college and pros...offenses were awful.

Romeo Crennel..DC of those early Pats teams failed at numerous spots with terrible defenses in KC, Cleveland

Ken whisenhunt....you should get the pint by now..

IOW, The graveyard of HC is full of guys whose teams were terrible on the sides of the ball they were supposed “experts” on. BoB is no different than any of the guys I name above.


So while you’re getting all giddy about some unknown guy with a pedigree on offense, I’ll sit back and grade him objectively as a HC...b/c that’s what the job is HC, not OC..not playcaller or “offense designer”. The skill set is different and the most important skill set is hiring personnel that can best help u curate your vision.

what did Kubiak’s great offensive pedigree do for us here under him? What did those top ranked offenses get us? Dick, that’s what. Furthermore, BoB was able to accomplish more here than Kubiak and his great pedigree of offensive ball...I say all that to say pedigree means nothing and it’s highly likely that whomever is brought in it won’t mean a whole lot either except to fans who think that their previous success somewhere else is guaranteed to translate to us.

It’s not...
Who is getting giddy? You were discussing the failures of BOB and Kubiak and how they were the same. I said yeah, but for different reasons. Kubiak was never a bad coordinator. His offense was great, Schaub was his downfall. He was too loyal to JAG. Try to keep up dude
 

santo

All Pro
Contributor's Club
Who is getting giddy? You were discussing the failures of BOB and Kubiak and how they were the same. I said yeah, but for different reasons. Kubiak was never a bad coordinator. His offense was great, Schaub was his downfall. He was too loyal to JAG. Try to keep up dude
In Kubiak’s defense, Rick Smith wouldn’t let him have Manning when we had the chance.
 

Mr teX

Hall of Fame
And that’s different from any NFL coach being fired before how? Statistically, most of them are average. We have a grand sample size of three head coaches here.

Capers was hired solely on his prior experience with an expansion team, but with worse rules around the expansion draft than he’d had the first time. Kubiak had lost the team and it showed. O’Brien was on the verge of ruining the confidence of our very talented young QB...that we’ve invested heavily in, yet crippled him by taking away his favorite target and not playing to his strengths. He was the anti-Parcells when it came to adapting his system to the talent he had.

O’Brien is relatively successful for a Belichick tree guy, but that’s a pretty low bar. The only question now becomes how long it will take to rebuild the roster on both sides of the ball before contracts start running out.
We will never know how “handicapped” DW4 was or felt in BoB’s offense. People just speculate that this was the case b/c he wasn’t putting up 30 pass TD’s. Aside from that, I keep hearing that the offense wasn’t “playing to his strengths”...well the question needs to be asked, what exactly is DW4’s core strengths? Throwing it downfield? Check, DW4 was 1 of the best doing it and we attacked downfield a lot...some might say he/we tried to do it too much under BoB. Running it? He had the freedom to do that and did it plenty. There wasn’t a lot of it SCRIPTED within the offense, but I don’t think u want that for a guy who has already had 2 ACL’s and a punctured lung.

I dont think fans who say this even know what they’re saying. All of DW4’s strengths were emphasized in BoB’s offense.
 

Mr teX

Hall of Fame
Who is getting giddy? You were discussing the failures of BOB and Kubiak and how they were the same. I said yeah, but for different reasons. Kubiak was never a bad coordinator. His offense was great, Schaub was his downfall. He was too loyal to JAG. Try to keep up dude
lol at trying to keep up, I’ve already lapped u and you didn’t even realize it.

only dudes like you try to make a distinction...like it matters. Kubiak’s tenure as a HC was just as sorry if not worse than BoB’s. Just b/c u were entertained with Kubiak’s supposed good offenses doesn’t make it any different B/c at the end of the day both lost when it mattered.

Kubiak’s downfall was the same as BoB...the inability to hire guys to effectively implement their vision. Just b/c Kubiak’s was issues were on the defensive side of the ball and BoB’s was on the offensive matters not; end result is the same.
 

Mr teX

Hall of Fame
Rest assured I have opinions on the matter but you made it a declaration to make some point.

Back your statement.
I did in the post you quoted. The offense...which was a downfield passing offense played to perhaps DW4’s greatest strength as a passer.... which was throwing it deep and downfield..he was 1 of the best at it in the league under BoB.

Unlike other past mobile qbs who were discouraged from running, DW4 was left free and in a lot of respects encouraged to use his mobility..it was 1 of the reasons that Seahawks qb coach whose name I’m blanking on was brought in last year to help shape him in the mold of Russell Wilson as a mobile qb guy. Also, The RPO concept became a staple in the offense. and although DW4 rarely pulled it to run outside of the 20’s, every year he has had around 3-4 TD’s a season running it. We didn’t run AS much qb waggle and play action boot stuff, but we did run it on occasion. And all of that doesn’t even factor in his scrambling off schedule playmaking. All of that shows how his mobility was deployed within the offense.

so in that regard, I want to here how the offense didn’t play more to his strengths from folks who keep saying this...not necessarily you if you were saying it.
 

amazing80

Fire Billy O
I did in the post you quoted. The offense...which was a downfield passing offense played to perhaps DW4’s greatest strength as a passer.... which was throwing it deep and downfield..he was 1 of the best at it in the league under BoB.

Unlike other past mobile qbs who were discouraged from running, DW4 was left free and in a lot of respects encouraged to use his mobility..it was 1 of the reasons that Seahawks qb coach whose name I’m blanking on was brought in last year to help shape him in the mold of Russell Wilson as a mobile qb guy. Also, The RPO concept became a staple in the offense. and although DW4 rarely pulled it to run outside of the 20’s, every year he has had around 3-4 TD’s a season running it. We didn’t run AS much qb waggle and play action boot stuff, but we did run it on occasion. And all of that doesn’t even factor in his scrambling off schedule playmaking. All of that shows how his mobility was deployed within the offense.

so in that regard, I want to here how the offense didn’t play more to his strengths from folks who keep saying this...not necessarily you if you were saying it.
Watson came out of college with three amazing attributes. Throwing quick passes in rhythm, buying time and hitting teams deep with accuracy, and being an RPO savant. None of those were a focus for this team. OB stripped him more and more every year of his natural talent and forced him to overthink things. We will see over the next few weeks what the real Watson is comfortable with. Because there is no doubt he will force his style of play on this coaching staff
 

Mr teX

Hall of Fame
Watson came out of college with three amazing attributes. Throwing quick passes in rhythm, buying time and hitting teams deep with accuracy, and being an RPO savant. None of those were a focus for this team. OB stripped him more and more every year of his natural talent and forced him to overthink things. We will see over the next few weeks what the real Watson is comfortable with. Because there is no doubt he will force his style of play on this coaching staff

Garbage analysis...DW4’s natural talent is making offschedule plays, which didn’t seem to be curbed at all under BoB.

The other thing is we weren’t even running RPO/zone read stuff until Watson took over as qb. 2nd, alot of our “run game” and play action passing game came off that RPO/zone read stuff. So what’s more likely...that BoB had that already in the playbook and we just didn’t run it with Hoyer, Fitz, Oz and Mallet......OR all that stuff was put in specifically to emphasize and threaten defenses with DW4’s mobility? Me thinks the latter. There is Indisputable proof of this if you just watch the tape from 2014 to now. We run more RPO stuff now than we ever have.

3rd, he has been 1 of the better deep ball throwers in the game. It’s been ages ago, but someone posted a PFF graphic of that last year I wanna say.

The rest is just supposition by you with no actual tangible basis. DW4 might very well be better, but I’ll go out on a limb and say it will be because he will have more of a say in the gameplan than perhaps he did before..not b/c the offensive scheme didn’t emphasize his skill set.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
Watson came out of college with three amazing attributes. Throwing quick passes in rhythm, buying time and hitting teams deep with accuracy, and being an RPO savant. None of those were a focus for this team. OB stripped him more and more every year of his natural talent and forced him to overthink things. We will see over the next few weeks what the real Watson is comfortable with. Because there is no doubt he will force his style of play on this coaching staff
A savant and forced to overthink things.

LMAO, do people even realize what they type?
 

powda

Baby can you dig your man?
utilizing some rpos in a league where nearly every quasi mobile quarterback is doing it isnt molding to his strengths. Its just a copy cat league and we weren't the first to do it- or do it more often then everyone else. Drawing up pass plays were every route is 15 yards deep or deeper doesn't help your qb when the line can't pass protect for longer then 2 seconds. Drawing up pass plays where multiple wrs stem within 5-7 yards of one another is killer and Montana himself wouldn't do well there. Those waggles, boots, naked boots, end arounds, and misdirection plays were highlighted in a few games and they worked. They worked well in the 6-9 games we ever used them and then they disappeared. THAT WAS USING DW. Show me a hot route. Show me consistent blitz pick up. Show me a blocking scheme that shifts by design the qb pocket when overloaded on 1 side allowing dw to use his mobility "intentionally" buying wrs more time. Show me a delayed route by a rb and te. Show me a rb and te with a block/route release option. Show me a legit screen. Show me an offense that allows the qb to get in rythm with up tempo play calling. Show me a coach who supports his team and offense with reasonable challenges and clock management.

Nah. I didn't see it. I saw run on first down for a yard. Second down run for nothing. Forcing 3rd and long effectively castrating your qb again and again.

And 1 more cherry for your obrien slushi that taste more like tears then anything else, he traded one of the better wrs of the decade and dw's only go to guy for pennies on the dollar.

So tell me again what he did to help this offense or dw?
 

Corrosion

Idealist
Staff member
There’s no objectivity to outlandish moves like that.

First Clowney and then Hopkins.

Come on man

Objectively speaking. Lol

I hated the DHop trade , still do .... But that one isn't on OB. He was put behind the 8 ball on that mess and the poor return is a direct result of ownership meddling.

As for Clowney , they should have moved him a year sooner and gotten some return on him. I can understand why they didn't want to move him and why they didn't want to give him a long term big money deal. They should have made the move sooner and not let the league rules come into play affecting his value.
 

Corrosion

Idealist
Staff member
Unfortunately, the damage was done. Clowney gone. Nuk gone. No 1st & 2nd round picks next season. No 1st the following. High priced players not playing up to their value.

I think what @steelbtexan was getting at is in regards to the offense and its effectiveness with Watson and the ongoing narrative that all the offensive issues were OB's fault - No one open , no easy checkdowns Vs Watson failing to execute easy plays bla bla bla ....

Anther comment on Clowney - He wanted Big Money for a lot of years , imagine had they given him that .... we'd be roasting OB for it now with the way he's played recently. That was a no win situation.

Tunsil .... bad deal.
Hopkins .... BAD DEAL
Watson extension .... bad deal.
 

Corrosion

Idealist
Staff member
We will never know how “handicapped” DW4 was or felt in BoB’s offense. People just speculate that this was the case b/c he wasn’t putting up 30 pass TD’s. Aside from that, I keep hearing that the offense wasn’t “playing to his strengths”...well the question needs to be asked, what exactly is DW4’s core strengths? Throwing it downfield? Check, DW4 was 1 of the best doing it and we attacked downfield a lot...some might say he/we tried to do it too much under BoB. Running it? He had the freedom to do that and did it plenty. There wasn’t a lot of it SCRIPTED within the offense, but I don’t think u want that for a guy who has already had 2 ACL’s and a punctured lung.

I dont think fans who say this even know what they’re saying. All of DW4’s strengths were emphasized in BoB’s offense.
I don't at all disagree with what you've said here ... But.

The problem was that it didn't help hide what he wasn't good at .... and let him hold the ball too long and refuse to take those easy throws that move the sticks.

In fact , I'd go so far as to say it exacerbated his faults / weaknesses because of all that downfield stuff on the vast majority of plays allowing him an excuse to hang onto the ball.

Basically they were just a bad fit .... Watson needs as well structured , well disciplined scheme that makes him get the ball out quick unless the scoreboard dictates otherwise.

Save that hero ball crap for when you need a miracle.
 
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