Derek Stingley vs. Sauce Gardner

[JB]

Call whatever you like

The truth is the truth.

BTW, Corrosion has been around some HOF QB's. He knows what he's looking at.

You and Corrosion weren't the only ones on this board that had Mahomes as their preferred QB in that draft once McNair dictated that a QB would be drafted. But most, including you and Corrosion thought he would be available at the Texans pick and that he would be a good QB after a few years. NO ONE anticipated that he would be league MVP by his 3rd year. And in OB's offense if he was forced to start as a rookie it's doubtful that he would have done as well as DW4 before his injury.

 

[FuzzyLogic]

I call bullshit

Truth

Me I would like OL in round 1 and the best available option at QB in round 2 (I would have like that to be Mahomes (sp?) but looks like he is moving up the board, maybe even top 10).

I liked Mahomes, and he is the QB I wish they would have drafted (BOB would have ruined him but that's beside the point). But did I think he would turn into "Mahomes"? Nah, and neither did anyone else.

 

[beerlover]

Thats not being genuine. That’s being a bad teammate.

And it wasn’t only Zach Wilson. It was when a TD was scored on him and he blamed the safety because he didn’t want to look bad.

That’s not leadership. And you don’t criticize your teammates play.

Agree to disagree.

Sauce Gardner wasn’t just DROY and 1st team All-Pro because of flashy nickname (which if you watched his early film clip I posted, would see the legitimacy about it not self-proclaimed) he’s a freaking perfectionist. JR Reed messed up coverages not once but twice in redzone both charged against Sauce (one latter removed by PFF themselves recognizing error) but he still finished with second highest coverage grade 90.2 in 17 years behind Casey Hayward all time (who had 140 snaps less). Meaning, removing the TD charged against him for JR Reed blown coverage would have made him #1 all time coverage grade for DB’s in a single season (goal driven).

Kinda a big deal and one that helped develop and polish that Jet secondary in one year, with single player from 3rd worse in the league, giving up 259.4 yards per game in the air to top 10 allowing only 205.8 yards per game. His leadership, high expectations and accountability is what creates strong position groups, top flight defense and hopefully, minus numb nuts Zach Wilson a decent offense to compete.

Watch his tape, against all the top receivers. It’s almost like NBA one on ones, your best player vs our best player. He essentially shut them all down. You can see the respect and competitive nature at highest level of the game. And it’s just a taste. He’s finishing his degree in Summer School (promised his mom) strengthening both his mind and body getting ready for year two. His he brash and vocal, yes he is, guilty as charged. His impact can be felt in how officials call the game, in regards to illegal contact and pass interference. He’s made defense cool, important and must watch TV. And he is refreshing, genuine young superstar with a bright future ahead of him.

 

[beerlover]

Having fun with the mock draft simulator on PFF. These are silly, but it's entertaining me on a slow Monday.
View attachment 11577

Nice work! Like to pair Stingley with hot corner like Witherspoon (gave up zero TD’s last season, sound familiar). If DeMeco signs off on Levis I’m fine with that, be a run first oriented offense anyway. Just so you know, Andre Carter had a bad week in Mobile and was exposed all around. Probably hurt his draft stock enough to drop to end of 2nd early 3rd. I would just swap places with Benton, make sure you add him first to defensive line, exceptional value @33 and fills big need for Texans, don’t have to spend #2 overall on Jalen Carter.

 

[steelbtexan]

You know what is funny?

People give you a hard time (me included) about saying the same thing over and over again. People get exhausted by it.

But it must be equally exhausting for you when you argue the same point over and over again but the entire board forgets that conversation.

It's like if they carry the narrative enough they think I won't respond. LOL

 

[DocBar]

No RB?

Playing around with this one, I decided I could add an UDFA RB to team up with Pierce or maybe get Josh Jacobs on a 1-2 yr deal in FA. With Metchie coming back I didn't draft a WR either.
I took the CB at 1.12 to acknowledge the draft failure at 1.3 in the 2022 draft, then went DL, LB and OL to hopefully shore up the trenches.
I would bring in a FA QB to compete with Mills (Jimmy G, Jacoby Brissett or Cooper Rush on a good 1-2 yr. contract), sit Levis for the year.
See if I could get Jakobi Meyers in FA or in a trade for Cooks (even if I had to eat some of his salary). See about getting LB Lavonte David on a 1-2 yr deal. I'd also be hoping the chance to play for Ryans would be an incentive for some of the FAs.

 

[beerlover]

It’s all about, the Aqua
https://youtube.com/shorts/D4IMhxFW2Ic?feature=share

 

[DocBar]

How about the Hopkins trade?

Trading up for Derrick instead of Mahomes tops my list.

To give your 20/20 hindsight a look into what was thought of Mahomes in 2017.
Patrick Mahomes Draft and Combine Prospect Profile | NFL.com
Mike Mayock's 2017 NFL Draft top 100 prospect rankings
EDIT: Do you really think Mahomes would be the same QB we see now if OB was the one coaching him? That would be worse than going to a Jeff Fisher or Marty Schottenheimer ran team. Watson succeeded here in spite of OB, not because of him.

 

[steelbtexan]

To give your 20/20 hindsight a look into what was thought of Mahomes in 2017.
Patrick Mahomes Draft and Combine Prospect Profile | NFL.com
Mike Mayock's 2017 NFL Draft top 100 prospect rankings
EDIT: Do you really think Mahomes would be the same QB we see now if OB was the one coaching him? That would be worse than going to a Jeff Fisher or Marty Schottenheimer ran team. Watson succeeded here in spite of OB, not because of him.

This is where we disagree.

Every QB under BOB has experienced some level of success. Fitzpatrick said BOB taught him more about playing the QB position than amywhere else he's played. After this yr we're going to find out what a good job BOB did with Derrick. Look at how Derrick looked this last yr, some rust was to be expected, but Derrick was literally one of the worst QB's in the NFL.

I'm guessing you're not a Young guy, or is he just another in a long line of guys that in your mind somehow succeeded in spite of BOB?

BOB was an avg HC and a terrible GM, but he was very good at working with QB's.

BTW, when are we going to start to hold Ryans to the BOB standard? Yr 2 ? Yr 3? Yr 5?

 

[TexansBull]

Sauce Gardner wasn’t just DROY and 1st team All-Pro because of flashy nickname (which if you watched his early film clip I posted, would see the legitimacy about it not self-proclaimed) he’s a freaking perfectionist. JR Reed messed up coverages not once but twice in redzone both charged against Sauce (one latter removed by PFF themselves recognizing error) but he still finished with second highest coverage grade 90.2 in 17 years behind Casey Hayward all time (who had 140 snaps less). Meaning, removing the TD charged against him for JR Reed blown coverage would have made him #1 all time coverage grade for DB’s in a single season (goal driven).

Kinda a big deal and one that helped develop and polish that Jet secondary in one year, with single player from 3rd worse in the league, giving up 259.4 yards per game in the air to top 10 allowing only 205.8 yards per game. His leadership, high expectations and accountability is what creates strong position groups, top flight defense and hopefully, minus numb nuts Zach Wilson a decent offense to compete.

Watch his tape, against all the top receivers. It’s almost like NBA one on ones, your best player vs our best player. He essentially shut them all down. You can see the respect and competitive nature at highest level of the game. And it’s just a taste. He’s finishing his degree in Summer School (promised his mom) strengthening both his mind and body getting ready for year two. His he brash and vocal, yes he is, guilty as charged. His impact can be felt in how officials call the game, in regards to illegal contact and pass interference. He’s made defense cool, important and must watch TV. And he is refreshing, genuine young superstar with a bright future ahead of him.

I am not saying he isn’t a good CB. He is.

I am saying I would not define his actions as a leader’s or genuine.

I get it. You’re a major fan of his and not going to be objective.

Like I said - agree to disagree.

 

[beerlover]

I can be both a fan and objective.

Want Stingley to be successful. Whatever can be done, medically and technically to improve and sustain his recovery timetable I'm on board with. It's important coaching change for him and sure Ryans will put him in better situations. Can't wait to see who he hires on his staff?

 

[DocBar]

I can be both a fan and objective.

Want Stingley to be successful. Whatever can be done, medically and technically to improve and sustain his recovery timetable I'm on board with. It's important coaching change for him and sure Ryans will put him in better situations. Can't wait to see who he hires on his staff?

I get where you're coming from, but what coaching can change a degenerative foot injury? Gonna have a 1.3 nickel corner? Stingley can't be fixed. Hope for the best, yada yada yada. It is what it is. Caserio blew that pick. No going back. A few years of "almost", could've been" and he'll be out of the league after his first contract, or a backup at best.

 

[76Texan]

The Steelers were a SB ready team when Ben was drafted.

Rodgers took over from Favre, so there was definitely talent there.

A 6-10 team that ranked 19th in points scored and 15th in points against was SB ready?

 

[76Texan]

How about the Hopkins trade?

Trading up for Derrick instead of Mahomes tops my list.

Hopkins never had a relationship with O'Brien.
He said so and tell the reporter to put that in print.
He forced his way out by demanding more money.

DeAndre Hopkins on the Trade from Houston, Finding His Voice

Why he knew it was over in Houston, what he thinks of the criticism he’s taken, and how he found his way to a new team in the most lopsided trade of the NFL offseason.

www.si.com

The Chiefs jumped ahead to draft Mahomes.
Most everybody thought them to be happy with Alex Smith.
The Chiefs run a WCO.
Mahomes was in the Air Raid in college.

You like to tell people they have a crystal ball. What are you doing now?
Did you have a crystal ball, too?

 

[steelbtexan]

Hopkins never had a relationship with O'Brien.
He said so and tell the reporter to put that in print.
He forced his way out by demanding more money.

DeAndre Hopkins on the Trade from Houston, Finding His Voice

Why he knew it was over in Houston, what he thinks of the criticism he’s taken, and how he found his way to a new team in the most lopsided trade of the NFL offseason.

www.si.com

The Chiefs jumped ahead to draft Mahomes.
Most everybody thought them to be happy with Alex Smith.
The Chiefs run a WCO.
Mahomes was in the Air Raid in college.

You like to tell people they have a crystal ball. What are you doing now?
Did you have a crystal ball, too?

They didn't have a QB.

I just am saying why this franchise is where it is and why it is where it is. The main issues go back to trading for Derrick instead of Mahomes and that not just me, but Corrosion and others called Mahomes as being the best QB in that draft. CnD, not me, told us there was a trade for Mahomes in place. So no, I'm not tooting my own horn like you do, I'm pointing out what most (see the pic in the war room) of the scouts/BOB wanted (Mahomes) vs what they got (Derrick) and how RS being the smartest man in the room put the franchise in the position it's in today.

 

[76Texan]

They didn't have a QB.

I just am saying why this franchise is where it is and why it is where it is. The main issues go back to trading for Derrick instead of Mahomes and that not just me, but Corrosion and others called Mahomes as being the best QB in that draft. CnD, not me, told us there was a trade for Mahomes in place. So no, I'm not tooting my own horn like you do, I'm pointing out what most (see the pic in the war room) of the scouts/BOB wanted (Mahomes) vs what they got (Derrick) and how RS being the smartest man in the room put the franchise in the position it's in today.

Hmm, I wanted Mahomes, too .
Earlier than you and corrosion.

 

[DocBar]

They didn't have a QB.

I just am saying why this franchise is where it is and why it is where it is. The main issues go back to trading for Derrick instead of Mahomes and that not just me, but Corrosion and others called Mahomes as being the best QB in that draft. CnD, not me, told us there was a trade for Mahomes in place. So no, I'm not tooting my own horn like you do, I'm pointing out what most (see the pic in the war room) of the scouts/BOB wanted (Mahomes) vs what they got (Derrick) and how RS being the smartest man in the room put the franchise in the position it's in today.

You're making it out like the Texans traded up to get Watson instead of Mahomes. In reality, the Chiefs jumped the ahead of the Texans and got Mahomes. The Texans then, wisely traded up to get Watson before someone else jumped ahead of them and got Watson.
Watson was actually graded as slightly better than Mahomes in 2017.
If OB got his hands on Mahomes, he would've ruined him. If Reid had gotten Watson instead of Mahomes, Watson would most likely be considered the best QB in the league right now. Reid can make a diamond out of charcoal. OB makes charcoal out of everything, including diamonds.

 

[steelbtexan]

You're making it out like the Texans traded up to get Watson instead of Mahomes. In reality, the Chiefs jumped the ahead of the Texans and got Mahomes. The Texans then, wisely traded up to get Watson before someone else jumped ahead of them and got Watson.
Watson was actually graded as slightly better than Mahomes in 2017.
If OB got his hands on Mahomes, he would've ruined him. If Reid had gotten Watson instead of Mahomes, Watson would most likely be considered the best QB in the league right now. Reid can make a diamond out of charcoal. OB makes charcoal out of everything, including diamonds.

There was a deal in place to move up according to CnD and RS didn't want to give up and extra 3rd. This is CnD telling us this. (Not me) I do know from another source that BOB wanted Mahomes. (Hence the pic.)

We have much different thoughts on Derrick's talent level and BOB's ability to develop QB's. I guess Young's who he is in spite of BOB. BOB has had some awfully good QB's have varying degrees of success in spite of him. At some point even guys like you gotta admit it's not a coincidence. What happens when Jones improves next yr? Will that be in spite of BOB?

 

[IDEXAN]

To give your 20/20 hindsight a look into what was thought of Mahomes in 2017.
Patrick Mahomes Draft and Combine Prospect Profile | NFL.com
Mike Mayock's 2017 NFL Draft top 100 prospect rankings
EDIT: Do you really think Mahomes would be the same QB we see now if OB was the one coaching him? That would be worse than going to a Jeff Fisher or Marty Schottenheimer ran team. Watson succeeded here in spite of OB, not because of him.

From the analysis prepared by Zierland is this comment about MaHomes from an unnamed NFL exec: ""He's got a great arm, big balls and he's mobile. He is going to drive his head coach crazy for the first couple of years and there is no getting around that. If it clicks for him and he's coachable, I think he could become a special quarterback." - NFC executive"
***
"Could become a special QB".

Well atleast there's one guy who saw way back then an inkling of the now nearly legendary KC QBs staggering potential.

 

[DocBar]

From the analysis prepared by Zierland is this comment about MaHomes from an unnamed NFL exec: ""He's got a great arm, big balls and he's mobile. He is going to drive his head coach crazy for the first couple of years and there is no getting around that. If it clicks for him and he's coachable, I think he could become a special quarterback." - NFC executive"
***
"Could become a special QB".

Well at least there's one guy who saw way back then an inkling of the now nearly legendary KC QBs staggering potential.

Could is almost as big a word as IF. Mahomes went to the perfect system with the perfect coach. He's not even a cousin to a gunslinger at QB anymore. He can damned sure sling it, but he's much more careful with the ball since he's been a pro. That's being coachable and getting good coaching. If Houston had drafted him, there's no guarantee that he turns out to be the same great player that he is today. Andy Reid is a sure-enough QB whisperer. The Teapot? Not so much.
Back in 2017, my only real knock on Mahomes was that he was considered a gunslinger.

 

[thunderkyss]

Could is almost as big a word as IF. Mahomes went to the perfect system with the perfect coach. He's not even a cousin to a gunslinger at QB anymore. He can damned sure sling it, but he's much more careful with the ball since he's been a pro. That's being coachable and getting good coaching. If Houston had drafted him, there's no guarantee that he turns out to be the same great player that he is today. Andy Reid is a sure-enough QB whisperer. The Teapot? Not so much.
Back in 2017, my only real knock on Mahomes was that he was considered a gunslinger.

Yup

 

[Texansballer74]

Could is almost as big a word as IF. Mahomes went to the perfect system with the perfect coach. He's not even a cousin to a gunslinger at QB anymore. He can damned sure sling it, but he's much more careful with the ball since he's been a pro. That's being coachable and getting good coaching. If Houston had drafted him, there's no guarantee that he turns out to be the same great player that he is today. Andy Reid is a sure-enough QB whisperer. The Teapot? Not so much.
Back in 2017, my only real knock on Mahomes was that he was considered a gunslinger.

Quote from nothing but the Truth!

 

[Mr teX]

Sauce Gardner wasn’t just DROY and 1st team All-Pro because of flashy nickname (which if you watched his early film clip I posted, would see the legitimacy about it not self-proclaimed) he’s a freaking perfectionist. JR Reed messed up coverages not once but twice in redzone both charged against Sauce (one latter removed by PFF themselves recognizing error) but he still finished with second highest coverage grade 90.2 in 17 years behind Casey Hayward all time (who had 140 snaps less). Meaning, removing the TD charged against him for JR Reed blown coverage would have made him #1 all time coverage grade for DB’s in a single season (goal driven).

Kinda a big deal and one that helped develop and polish that Jet secondary in one year, with single player from 3rd worse in the league, giving up 259.4 yards per game in the air to top 10 allowing only 205.8 yards per game. His leadership, high expectations and accountability is what creates strong position groups, top flight defense and hopefully, minus numb nuts Zach Wilson a decent offense to compete.

Watch his tape, against all the top receivers. It’s almost like NBA one on ones, your best player vs our best player. He essentially shut them all down. You can see the respect and competitive nature at highest level of the game. And it’s just a taste. He’s finishing his degree in Summer School (promised his mom) strengthening both his mind and body getting ready for year two. His he brash and vocal, yes he is, guilty as charged. His impact can be felt in how officials call the game, in regards to illegal contact and pass interference. He’s made defense cool, important and must watch TV. And he is refreshing, genuine young superstar with a bright future ahead of him.

See, this is where you guys go a little too far with it.

A, it’s a little disingenuous to attribute the dramatic improvement on the backend mostly to him and his “leadership” skills lol. That whole secondary was revamped in 2022 with overall better players than they had in 2021. DJ Reed in his own right was a damn good CB before he came to the jets and a vet who helped ease alot of pressure at times by being able to hold his own opposite Sauce. He was also able to match up a little better with the smaller quicker guys when Sauce had a little trouble at times. He was added along with Sauce & Jordan Whitehead to that jets secondary for 2022.

B. 2nd year in Saleh’s defense you saw more than a few guys grow… particularly in the front 7. Saleh’s defense is set up to generate quick pressure on the qb and force a quick or bad throw. Guys in the secondary are encouraged to rally up and be instinctive & aggressive in making plays by attacking the ball..A sauce strength. Had he been here with Lovie playing in his passive ass cover 2 zone defense, Sauce likely isn’t close to performing on the same level he did with the Jets in Saleh’s defense….Especially considering he’d be playing more run defense b/c our front 7 was trash. so im more inclined to believe a huge part of his success can be attributed to the homerun scheme fit for Saleh’s defense than him just being that good. We all saw what Namdi looked like when he left the comfy zone defense scheme he’d played with the Raiders to go play in a more man scheme in Philly.

C. I could understand if Sauce traveled with the best WR every play as a man guy..but he didn’t. Hell alot of times he rarely saw the best guy more than 5-6 times in a passing down situation. So again its somewhat misleading to talk about his 1 on 1 vs. the top guys when he wasn’t seeing them but a handful of snaps a game.

It like bragging on the fact that Stingley didn’t give up a single TD this year while ignoring the fact that he missed 1/2 the season and that he had a few shaky games early…

 

[beerlover]

See, this is where you guys go a little too far with it.

A, it’s a little disingenuous to attribute the dramatic improvement on the backend mostly to him and his “leadership” skills lol. That whole secondary was revamped in 2022 with overall better players than they had in 2021. DJ Reed in his own right was a damn good CB before he came to the jets and a vet who helped ease alot of pressure at times by being able to hold his own opposite Sauce. He was also able to match up a little better with the smaller quicker guys when Sauce had a little trouble at times. He was added along with Sauce & Jordan Whitehead to that jets secondary for 2022.

B. 2nd year in Saleh’s defense you saw more than a few guys grow… particularly in the front 7. Saleh’s defense is set up to generate quick pressure on the qb and force a quick or bad throw. Guys in the secondary are encouraged to rally up and be instinctive & aggressive in making plays by attacking the ball..A sauce strength. Had he been here with Lovie playing in his passive ass cover 2 zone defense, Sauce likely isn’t close to performing on the same level he did with the Jets in Saleh’s defense….Especially considering he’d be playing more run defense b/c our front 7 was trash. so im more inclined to believe a huge part of his success can be attributed to the homerun scheme fit for Saleh’s defense than him just being that good. We all saw what Namdi looked like when he left the comfy zone defense scheme he’d played with the Raiders to go play in a more man scheme in Philly.

C. I could understand if Sauce traveled with the best WR every play as a man guy..but he didn’t. Hell alot of times he rarely saw the best guy more than 5-6 times in a passing down situation. So again its somewhat misleading to talk about his 1 on 1 vs. the top guys when he wasn’t seeing them but a handful of snaps a game.

It like bragging on the fact that Stingley didn’t give up a single TD this year while ignoring the fact that he missed 1/2 the season and that he had a few shaky games early…

It’s all about the Sauce

 

[steelbtexan]

Could is almost as big a word as IF. Mahomes went to the perfect system with the perfect coach. He's not even a cousin to a gunslinger at QB anymore. He can damned sure sling it, but he's much more careful with the ball since he's been a pro. That's being coachable and getting good coaching. If Houston had drafted him, there's no guarantee that he turns out to be the same great player that he is today. Andy Reid is a sure-enough QB whisperer. The Teapot? Not so much.
Back in 2017, my only real knock on Mahomes was that he was considered a gunslinger.

I would have liked to find out.

RS SMH

 

[DocBar]

There was a deal in place to move up according to CnD and RS didn't want to give up and extra 3rd. This is CnD telling us this. (Not me) I do know from another source that BOB wanted Mahomes. (Hence the pic.)

We have much different thoughts on Derrick's talent level and BOB's ability to develop QB's. I guess Young's who he is in spite of BOB. BOB has had some awfully good QB's have varying degrees of success in spite of him. At some point even guys like you gotta admit it's not a coincidence. What happens when Jones improves next yr? Will that be in spite of BOB?

Nobody knows how Young will translate to the NFL. College success doesn't equal NFL success. Name an NFL QB that OB has turned into a superstar. Watson made spectacular plays mostly off script. He improvised and kept plays alive. Remember when OB was flipping out because Watson did his own thing and scored a touchdown?
What Bryce Young said to Bill O'Brien over the headset (DONT OWN RIGHTS TO VIDEO) Alabama Football - YouTube
Bill O'Brien's coaching is failing Deshaun Watson I D.A. on CBS - YouTube

 

[steelbtexan]

Nobody knows how Young will translate to the NFL. College success doesn't equal NFL success. Name an NFL QB that OB has turned into a superstar. Watson made spectacular plays mostly off script. He improvised and kept plays alive. Remember when OB was flipping out because Watson did his own thing and scored a touchdown?
What Bryce Young said to Bill O'Brien over the headset (DONT OWN RIGHTS TO VIDEO) Alabama Football - YouTube
Bill O'Brien's coaching is failing Deshaun Watson I D.A. on CBS - YouTube

If got a pretty good idea how Young will turn out, top 10 if he improves his arm strength. I'm not spending 1-2 on that.

The only QB that had any semblance of talent BOB had to work with was Derrick. The rest didn't have NFL starter level talent and BOB got the most out of them, see ; Fitz comments. He got the most out of Derrick. IMHO

If the GM had drafted a QB early in BOB's tenure we may be having a different discussion. I'm looking forward to seeing what BOB can do with Jones

 

[Texansphan]

If got a pretty good idea how Young will turn out, top 10 if he improves his arm strength. I'm not spending 1-2 on that.

The only QB that had any semblance of talent BOB had to work with was Derrick. The rest didn't have NFL starter level talent and BOB got the most out of them, see ; Fitz comments. He got the most out of Derrick. IMHO

If the GM had drafted a QB early in BOB's tenure we may be having a different discussion. I'm looking forward to seeing what BOB can do with Jones

Young is a better passer and all round quarterback than Murray but Murray may be better with his legs.
I prefer the former.

 

[Mr teX]

It’s all about the Sauce

 

[IDEXAN]

Could is almost as big a word as IF. Mahomes went to the perfect system with the perfect coach. He's not even a cousin to a gunslinger at QB anymore. He can damned sure sling it, but he's much more careful with the ball since he's been a pro. That's being coachable and getting good coaching. If Houston had drafted him, there's no guarantee that he turns out to be the same great player that he is today. Andy Reid is a sure-enough QB whisperer. The Teapot? Not so much.
Back in 2017, my only real knock on Mahomes was that he was considered a gunslinger.

"Great arm, big balls, & mobility" so I'd say that guy pretty much summed it up about the potential of one college QB named Patrick MaHomes.

 

[76Texan]

If got a pretty good idea how Young will turn out, top 10 if he improves his arm strength. I'm not spending 1-2 on that.

The only QB that had any semblance of talent BOB had to work with was Derrick. The rest didn't have NFL starter level talent and BOB got the most out of them, see ; Fitz comments. He got the most out of Derrick. IMHO

If the GM had drafted a QB early in BOB's tenure we may be having a different discussion. I'm looking forward to seeing what BOB can do with Jones

Ryan Fitzpatrick? LOL.
How do you develop a ten-year veteran?

OB get the best out of Fitz and then promptly traded him for a seventh rounder?

What a stretch.
You can really say anything, can't you?
I'm not surprised.

 

[76Texan]

There was a deal in place to move up according to CnD and RS didn't want to give up and extra 3rd. This is CnD telling us this. (Not me) I do know from another source that BOB wanted Mahomes. (Hence the pic.)

We have much different thoughts on Derrick's talent level and BOB's ability to develop QB's. I guess Young's who he is in spite of BOB. BOB has had some awfully good QB's have varying degrees of success in spite of him. At some point even guys like you gotta admit it's not a coincidence. What happens when Jones improves next yr? Will that be in spite of BOB?

Nick Saban always have good college QB.
Bryce Young just happens to be the latest with individual skills that nobody can teach.

 

[Double Barrel]

There was a deal in place to move up according to CnD and RS didn't want to give up and extra 3rd. This is CnD telling us this. (Not me) I do know from another source that BOB wanted Mahomes. (Hence the pic.)

We have much different thoughts on Derrick's talent level and BOB's ability to develop QB's. I guess Young's who he is in spite of BOB. BOB has had some awfully good QB's have varying degrees of success in spite of him. At some point even guys like you gotta admit it's not a coincidence. What happens when Jones improves next yr? Will that be in spite of BOB?

It's a waste of time trying to be objective about O'Brien in any capacity. Groupthink won't allow it. lol

People got their emotions all tied up in their analysis. Can't be objective when you're emotional about it.

Ryan Fitzpatrick? LOL.
How do you develop a ten-year veteran?

OB get the best out of Fitz and then promptly traded him for a seventh rounder?

What a stretch.
You can really say anything, can't you?
I'm not surprised.

Fitzpatrick himself explains what you seem unable to comprehend:

Ryan Fitzpatrick had thrown 2,599 NFL passes. Then he really learned how to play QB.

Ryan Fitzpatrick looks back on his 2014 season with the Houston Texans as a pivot point in his career

By the time Ryan Fitzpatrick signed on with the Houston Texans in 2014, he had played nine NFL seasons for eight head coaches, six offensive coordinators and four franchises. He had thrown 2,599 passes. He was 31, a Harvard grad who might well have thought he knew football. He was still learning.

“Maybe it was something in the way we taught the offense,” said Bill O’Brien, then the Texans’ first-year coach, wondering aloud this week.

As Fitzpatrick prepares to open his 17th NFL season under his 13th head coach in Ron Rivera and his 11th offensive coordinator in Scott Turner, with his ninth team in Washington, he still looks back on that 2014 season in Houston as a pivot point. He had never played on a winning team, and those Texans went 9-7. He had never thrown twice as many touchdowns as interceptions, and that season he tossed 17 scores with only eight picks.

More than that, though: Before arriving in Houston, Fitzpatrick had never thought about football the way O’Brien and George Godsey, his quarterbacks coach, taught him to think about it.

“It was looking at the game in a different way than I had ever looked at it,” Fitzpatrick said last month during training camp. “It was understanding how to manipulate the defenses to make the offense work. It was a different way to attack defenses, and it was a complete 180 with what I had done in the past. Just having that new perspective on the way that [O’Brien] did it and the way that he taught it really allowed me to bring along my career and help me year after year.”

Given that perspective, it’s worth asking O’Brien what it was about Fitzpatrick in that season. Bill?

“He’s so smart,” O’Brien said by phone Tuesday. “I think for him and his career, the way we framed it — whether it was me or George Godsey — he picked it up right away. He really related to what we were teaching about the offense, which was a lot of stuff relative to knowledge of the defense and noticing different things from play to play.”

Translate that: Fitzpatrick’s greatest asset wasn’t his arm. It was his mind. O’Brien and Godsey, then, could program him with options other quarterbacks might not be able to handle — changing a receiver’s route based on how the defense lined up, or changing where the ball went depending on what the defense did after the snap. This wasn’t stuff a rookie could handle. Fitzpatrick had long since been a rookie.

That fall, Fitzpatrick started 12 games. In November, he was benched for Ryan Mallett, returned as the starter two games later, threw six touchdown passes against Tennessee, then broke his tibia in a Week 15 loss to Indianapolis. The Texans had been 2-14 the previous season. In 2014, they missed the playoffs by a game.
“Ryan was a big, big part of that,” O’Brien said.

In 2021, it’s easiest to think about O’Brien as the coach who was fired by the Texans after an 0-4 start last season. But that’s recency bias. The full picture is that after that initial 9-7 season, O’Brien’s Texans won four of the next five AFC South titles. O’Brien got the Houston job because he took over at Penn State and had success when the post-Paterno, post-Sandusky situation in State College was nothing short of toxic, and he got the Penn State job because he had a five-year run as an offensive assistant on Bill Belichick’s staff in New England that included a perfect regular season, two years as Tom Brady’s quarterbacks coach and one as offensive coordinator. Now, he is the offensive coordinator at Alabama, a job Nick Saban doesn’t hand to just anyone. He knows football. He knows quarterbacks.

Plus, he knows Fitz. And he loves Fitz.

“He cares about people,” O’Brien said. “You could tell that when he got there. He was just a leader, had a really good feel for the locker room. He’s very instinctive when it comes to people. He wasn’t a yeller and a screamer, but he knows when to talk. He’s funny, but he’s serious when he needs to be serious.”

There’s statistical evidence to back Fitzpatrick’s sense that his 2014 season was an awakening for him. Before arriving in Houston, Fitzpatrick completed 59.8 percent of his passes. Since, that number is up to 61.7 — including 63.1 percent, then a career high, with the Texans. Before arriving in Houston, Fitzpatrick threw 106 touchdowns and 93 interceptions — or 1.14 touchdowns for every pick. Since, he has thrown 117 touchdowns and 76 picks — an improvement to 1.54 scores for every interception. His passer rating before arriving in Houston was 77.5 and never once above 85. Since, it’s 87.3 and only once below 85.

“I just think the way they teach football, the way they look at it — everything runs through and falls on the quarterback,” Fitzpatrick said last month. “The way they attack defenses, the stuff that they do presnap, the stuff that they do post-snap, the recognition of defenses. There’s just a million things that it was just a 180-[degree] difference from the way that I had looked at it in the past.

“And it was just really helpful for me to be able to be in Year 10. It was refreshing for me to be able to see that it gave me a new life for a little bit, and having to start over and feel like I was in kindergarten again and having to learn everything from the ground up.”

Which is a little bit of what Fitzpatrick had to do this offseason after signing with Washington. Sunday’s opener at FedEx Field against the Los Angeles Chargers offers the first real chance to evaluate how Fitzpatrick fits in Turner’s system, which is still evolving. The evidence from the preseason is scant — two appearances in which he threw all of 21 passes, completing 12 of them. The first-team offense — which did not have new bauble Curtis Samuel at all during training camp or in preseason games — did not score a touchdown.

All we know is that we don’t know a lot about Fitzpatrick specific to what will happen here. Except …

“When you’ve got a guy with that much experience,” Turner said, “you listen to him.”

Now, I’ve been clear about my position on Washington’s quarterback situation: It’s not fixed for the long term, and unless and until it is fixed for the long term, then the chance for sustained success — meaning repeated, deep runs in the postseason — is limited. Fitzpatrick will turn 39 in November, and his next playoff start will be his first. In all likelihood, at this time next year, we’ll be talking about the next Washington Football Team quarterback, because there is instability baked into the position in Ashburn.

But Ryan Fitzpatrick is the quarterback to start 2021, and the potential of the offense rests not just on his right arm but on his mind, which is so full as to be overflowing. So it’s important to know that — even with 16 seasons and 5,054 passes behind him — Washington’s quarterback this fall is smart enough to apply all he has learned, but not so smart that he won’t continue to learn new things.

Source

 

[76Texan]

It's a waste of time trying to be objective about O'Brien in any capacity. Groupthink won't allow it. lol

People got their emotions all tied up in their analysis. Can't be objective when you're emotional about it.



Fitzpatrick himself explains what you seem unable to comprehend:

I had read that article before.

Coaches have different systems.
Fitzpatrick just didn't have it done certain way.

And he's always going to be political correct.

The article is more like a fluff piece that doesn't rhyme with reality.

O'Brien get the best out of Fitzpatrick and then promptly benched him for Mallet.

Texans bench Ryan Fitzpatrick, turn to Ryan Mallett

The Texans have made a change at quarterback.

profootballtalk.nbcsports.com

And then traded him to the Jets for a low-round pick.

What part of it that I didn't understand?

 

[76Texan]

Bama fans want nothing to do with O'Brien.

https://thespun.com/more/top-stories/alabama-fans-are-already-fed-up-with-bill-obrien

 

[76Texan]

Mallet, Savage, Osweiler, Yates, McCarron.

All these young guys either regressed or never developed under O'Brien.

What part of it that I didn't understand?

 

[Max]

Mahomes got drafted by the perfect team to bring out his potential. Dude isn't the MVP if BOB drafts him. Same way Sauce isn't ROY if Lovie got him. That said, I'd have preferred both Mahomes and Sauce.

 

[steelbtexan]

Mahomes got drafted by the perfect team to bring out his potential. Dude isn't the MVP if BOB drafts him. Same way Sauce isn't ROY if Lovie got him. That said, I'd have preferred both Mahomes and Sauce.

You dont know this. Read the above post.

I would've liked to find out. Mahomes is who BOB wanted so obviously he knows QB's.

 

[Max]

You dont know this. Read the above post.

I would've liked to find out. Mahomes is who BOB wanted so obviously he knows QB's.

We'll never know. Certainly a possibility that Mahomes would've made BOB look much better. But I doubt it. He certainly didn't know OLinemen or what to do with the ones he had. To me, his OLine failures would've hurt any qb playing back there - Mahomes included.

 

[CloakNNNdagger]

I get where you're coming from, but what coaching can change a degenerative foot injury? Gonna have a 1.3 nickel corner? Stingley can't be fixed. Hope for the best, yada yada yada. It is what it is. Caserio blew that pick. No going back. A few years of "almost", could've been" and he'll be out of the league after his first contract, or a backup at best.

That was Lovie's pick.

 

[zshawn10]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1623871863582560256

 

[TexansBull]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1623871863582560256

Not surprised. Tariq Woolen was robbed for a bigger market.

 

[steelbtexan]

Not surprised. Tariq Woolen was robbed for a bigger market.

Love Woolen.

Darius Rush out of South Carolina is this yrs Woolen.

 

[beerlover]

One year later leading up to the 2023 NFL Draft, Nick Baumgardner of the Athletic just posted a redraft of 2022. Here is how, in retrospect, it fell. I’ll just copy & paste the top 15 for Texan purposes -


1. Jacksonville Jaguars: Sauce Gardner, CB, Cincinnati
Original pick: Travon Walker, Edge, Georgia

It didn’t take very long before Gardner not only looked like the best rookie but arguably the best cornerback in the NFL, regardless of age. The 6-foot-3, 200-pounder can do everything — either on an island or in zone — and is the prototype for the modern CB1 moving forward. This is the easiest pick in hindsight.

2. Detroit Lions: Aidan Hutchinson, Edge, Michigan
Original pick: Aidan Hutchinson, Edge, Michigan

If it weren’t for Gardner’s special rookie year, Hutchinson (whom the Lions also picked in real life, obviously) would have been the Defensive Rookie of the Year without much argument. He showed a bit of what he can do for a defense in his first year — pass rush, run defense, pass coverage — and should continue to improve. Detroit got exactly what it wanted.

3. Houston Texas: Garrett Wilson, WR, Ohio State
Original pick: Derek Stingley Jr., CB, LSU

Is this high for a receiver? Maybe, but there weren’t three better first-year players last season than Wilson. You could argue there weren’t two. Wilson played for a Jets team that had no serious answer at quarterback and still put together a marvelous rookie campaign with 1,103 receiving yards and 22 forced missed tackles — the latter placing him second only to Deebo Samuel among full-time starting receivers.

4. New York Jets: Kayvon Thibodeaux, Edge, Oregon
Original pick: Sauce Gardner, CB, Cincinnati

Starting the year injured was hardly ideal, and it pushed Thibodeaux’s rookie-hiccup stage deeper into the season than the Giantswould’ve liked. However, he found a groove toward the middle of the year, especially after a nine-pressure game at Dallas on Thanksgiving. Despite the delayed start, Thibodeaux still finished with 45 pressures, third most among rookie edges.


5. New York Giants: Chris Olave, WR, Ohio State
Original pick: Kayvon Thibodeaux, Edge, Oregon

It’s debatable whether Olave should be above Wilson. The pair played on the same college team, shared reps and learned how to be pros by challenging each other. Both were outstanding as rookies, too. Olave, who took reps all over the Saints’ offensive formations, led all major rookie contributors with 2.42 yards per route run and also logged a 14.9-yard average depth of target. A true weapon.


6. Carolina Panthers: Tyler Smith, OL, Tulsa
Original pick: Ikem Ekwonu, OL, N.C. State

It’s hard to briefly summarize just how impressive Smith’s performance was as a rookie. The Cowboys drafted him at No. 24 to be a guard, but he wound up starting Week 1 at left tackle and never really looked back. Though there may be quibbles with who the top rookie offensive lineman was last season, it’s impossible to argue against Smith being one of the biggest steals (perhaps the biggest steal) in last year’s draft.

7. New York Giants: Ikem Ekwonu, OL, NC State
Original pick: Evan Neal, OT, Alabama

We’ll say the Giants, so far, went 1-for-2 in the top 10 (more on that in a bit). In this redraft, the Giants already grabbed a receiver (Olave), so we move to the next OT on my list — which is still Ekwonu, who falls just one spot from his original pick. The 22-year-old had an up-and-down rookie year, but that was expected by anyone familiar with his college film. His traits are still undeniable, though. He had his flashes and really found a groove in the middle of the year before wearing down a bit late.

8. Atlanta Falcons: Drake London, WR, USC
Original pick: Drake London, WR, USC

The Falcons get (mock) rewarded for making a great pick last year. The top receiver trio here could be pretty memorable if health and quarterbacks cooperate over time. London, after fighting off a preseason injury, was consistently very good for an Atlanta team that’s still figuring out what it wants to do at QB. He finished the year with a contested-catch rate of 53.8 percent — a shade behind the 54.5 clip Justin Jefferson posted as a rookie in 2020 — while being targeted 114 times. London, too, could’ve been the pick at No. 3 here.

9. Seattle Seahawks: Abe Lucas, OT, Washington State
Original pick: Charles Cross, OT, Mississippi State

Well, this is awkward — Cross and Lucas are teammates in Seattle. That happened because the Seahawks grabbed Lucas at No. 72, and that has been a real steal. Wherever you slot him among the 2022 rookie tackles, you have to admit that Lucas massively outperformed his draft slot. The case could be made that Seattle would still take Cross here, as his upside could still be better, but Lucas was the better of the two last season. Either way, it’s great news for the Seahawks, who still have both guys in real life.

10. New York Jets: Derek Stingley Jr., CB, LSU
Original pick: Garrett Wilson, WR, Ohio State

Stingley’s rookie year is tough to grade. A foot injury cost him part of his final year at LSU, then a hamstring injury shut him down after just nine games of his rookie season. What’d we learn in those nine games? First, Stingley looked very much like a prospect still overcoming an injury, even when he was “healthy.” Yet he still very much moved like the player we saw during his best days in college. Don’t give up on his potential.

11. Washington Commanders: Travon Walker, Edge, Georgia
Original pick: Chris Olave, WR, Ohio State
Speaking of not giving up on people …

Walker’s traits are why he was drafted No. 1. As with Ekwonu, most viewed Walker as a player who would need time to develop, especially in terms of his skill set as a pass rusher. He played with a stacked deck at Georgia, and his responsibilities were limited in part because there was so much depth. You’d like to see him be more consistent versus the run as he improves everything else, but Walker’s growth was always going to be a bit slower than that of Hutchinson or Thibodeaux just based on where he was as a prospect on draft day.

12. Minnesota Vikings: Tariq Woolen, CB, UTSA
Original pick: Jameson Williams, WR, Alabama (to Detroit via trade)

Should Minnesota have traded this pick? Maybe, maybe not. We’ll see how the returns pan out over time.

Woolen (No. 153, Seattle) outplayed his draft spot, perhaps more than any player on this list. He should not have fallen to the fifth round. He played at a small school and switched over from receiver midway through his career, so there was a lot to be scared about. But he’s also 6-4, 205 and ran a 4.29-second 40 with a 42-inch vert and a broad jump of 10 feet 11 inches. Every Power 5 coach in America whiffed on this guy — and so did every NFL team (at least once or twice) last year.

13. Philadelphia Eagles: Trent McDuffie, CB, Washington
Original pick: Jordan Davis, DT, Georgia

McDuffie, the former Washington Huskiesstar, was sticky in coverage all season for the Chiefs and played a big part in their Super Bowl run. He can still improve in some areas (62.1 percent catch rate against), but he just doesn’t let pass catchers get anything beyond the absolute minimum after a grab. His 10.1 yards per reception against was actually better than Gardner’s (10.6).

14. Baltimore Ravens: Tyler Linderbaum, C, Iowa
Original pick: Kyle Hamilton, S, Notre Dame

To the surprise of absolutely no one, Linderbaum looked awesome (once he was healthy) as a rookie center in Baltimore. The former Iowa star was a perfect fit — and a steal at 25 — for the Ravens and had stretches in which he looked like a future Pro Bowler. He wasn’t quite on Creed Humphrey’s level as a rookie, but he also was not too far behind as a run blocker.

15. Houston Texans: Jamaree Salyer, OL, Georgia
Original pick: Kenyon Green, OG, Texas A&M

Many, many people were down on Salyer coming out of college because of how he’s built (6-3, 321), his issues with keeping his weight down and his general inconsistency. This is also where I tell you The Athletic’s Dane Brugler thought Salyer was a second-round talent and had a chance to outperform that stock immediately. He was right — though even Dane must have been a bit surprised to see how well Salyer performed at tackle after the Chargers lost Rashawn Slater. At No. 195, Salyer was one of the best picks of the 2022 draft — right up there with Woolen.

 

[Lucky]

Jalen Pitre went #23 in the re-draft above.

23. Buffalo Bills: Jalen Pitre, S, Baylor
Original pick: Kaiir Elam, CB, Florida

Going on a safety run here. As was the case during his stellar run at Baylor, Pitre was all over the place last year for Houston. He led all rookie safeties with five interceptions and was second only to Woolen’s six among rookie defenders. Pitre still needs to tighten things up, but he outperformed his original draft slot (No. 37).

 

[sandman]

I hate these draft do-overs after one season. Take two guys in the top 15 that were originally drafted at #153 and #195? C'mon man, there are always guys every draft that surprise everyone. Doesn't mean that everyone in the league blew it by not taking them 180 picks earlier. This is trying too hard to be the smartest person in the room.

 

[Lucky]

I hate these draft do-overs after one season. Take two guys in the top 15 that were originally drafted at #153 and #195?

That's why you don't piss away day 3 picks. You might pick the lucky lotto numbers.

 

[sandman]

That's why you don't piss away day 3 picks. You might pick the lucky lotto numbers.

Not the point. Ranking draft picks after a certain period of time (not one season) always is a great lagging analysis of what amounts to a highly prepared for guess by every team on draft day. But to say in hindsight that the Texans should have taken Salyer, the 12th OG selected in the draft, instead of Green based on what they knew at the time of the draft is the epitome of armchair GM click bait tripe.

Hell, the LA Chargers, the team that drafted Salyer in the 6th round, also drafted Zion Johnson two picks after the Texans got Green. They took a flyer and got lucky with a guy who would not have played if not for a season ending injury to their Pro Bowl LG. It it doesn't reset the Day 1 picks. It gives the Chargers an A++ grade on a 6th rounder.

 

[Texansphan]

Not the point. Ranking draft picks after a certain period of time (not one season) always is a great lagging analysis of what amounts to a highly prepared for guess by every team on draft day. But to say in hindsight that the Texans should have taken Salyer, the 12th OG selected in the draft, instead of Green based on what they knew at the time of the draft is the epitome of armchair GM click bait tripe.

Hell, the LA Chargers, the team that drafted Salyer in the 6th round, also drafted Zion Johnson two picks after the Texans got Green. They took a flyer and got lucky with a guy who would not have played if not for a season ending injury to their Pro Bowl LG. It it doesn't reset the Day 1 picks. It gives the Chargers an A++ grade on a 6th rounder.

Some in here were very high on Salyer - @steelbtexan being the main one from memory.

 

[Lucky]

But to say in hindsight that the Texans should have taken Salyer, the 12th OG selected in the draft, instead of Green based on what they knew at the time of the draft is the epitome of armchair GM click bait tripe.

A redraft is by definition hindsight. They will do another in a couple of years and that will be hindsight. Eventually, everything is judged based upon hindsight.

I know you didn't mention day 3 picks. Trading those picks for special teamers or guys you cut in camp is just a pet peeve of mine. I used your post to interject my thoughts. I hope you're OK with that, because I'll probably do something like that again.