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Clowney VS Mercilus VS Frank Clark

TheKDog

Hall of Fame
What's your point?

The defense is playing very well despite the secondary being very thin despite injuries in that group.
This thread is about Clark vs mercilus vs clowney. My point is to compare them. I think the defense would have been better with clowney.

I agree RAC has done a great job as usual though. Have you changed your mind on RAC or has the game still passed him by?
 
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This thread is about Clark vs mercilus vs clowney. My point is to compare them. I think the defense would have been better with clowney.

I agree RAC has done a great job as usual though. Have you changed your mind on RAC or has the game still passed him by?
Disagree, Clowney would not help our team and frankly he didn’t help the team the time he was here. That year Watt went down, he didn’t step up his stats basically were the same as any other year. So someone says he gets double teamed a lot, I call BS. You look at him in Seattle and no one is talking about him or their defense it’s all about Wilson because Wilson is winning their games.

Clowney is gone and I’m happy for it. Hated him as number 1 overall and frankly consider him a bust for a number 1. Whole time here he never improved and reports from the locker room is he was lazy and not liked. Think it was you that said the locker room was going to be pissed at BoB for running Clowney off well they sure don’t act pissed and they aren’t playing like they miss him.

As for RAC yeah overall the game has still passed him by. That win against the Chiefs was the offense because all that time Mahomes was on the bench the defense was on the bench to. Our defense has been middle of the pack and they have plenty of talent, more than most teams. If the offense hasn’t done their job and kept Mahomes off the field then he would have eaten us alive.
 

steelbtexan

Hall of Fame
This thread is about Clark vs mercilus vs clowney. My point is to compare them. I think the defense would have been better with clowney.

I agree RAC has done a great job as usual though. Have you changed your mind on RAC or has the game still passed him by?
I was never one of the game has passed RAC by guy. I did have a problem with CB's playing off coverage as much as they do.
 

TheKDog

Hall of Fame
Disagree, Clowney would not help our team and frankly he didn’t help the team the time he was here. That year Watt went down, he didn’t step up his stats basically were the same as any other year. So someone says he gets double teamed a lot, I call BS. You look at him in Seattle and no one is talking about him or their defense it’s all about Wilson because Wilson is winning their games.

Clowney is gone and I’m happy for it. Hated him as number 1 overall and frankly consider him a bust for a number 1. Whole time here he never improved and reports from the locker room is he was lazy and not liked. Think it was you that said the locker room was going to be pissed at BoB for running Clowney off well they sure don’t act pissed and they aren’t playing like they miss him.

As for RAC yeah overall the game has still passed him by. That win against the Chiefs was the offense because all that time Mahomes was on the bench the defense was on the bench to. Our defense has been middle of the pack and they have plenty of talent, more than most teams. If the offense hasn’t done their job and kept Mahomes off the field then he would have eaten us alive.
Clowney was an elite run defender, had 9.5 sacks, and was the most double teamed EDGE in the entire league last year. I find it hard to believe that he didn't help or improve.

Not sure what data makes the defense middle of the pack, it has consistently been top 10.
 

Honoring Earl 34

Something Witty !
Clowney was an elite run defender, had 9.5 sacks, and was the most double teamed EDGE in the entire league last year. I find it hard to believe that he didn't help or improve.

Not sure what data makes the defense middle of the pack, it has consistently been top 10.
Where is the stat that says Clowney was the most double team edge rusher ? He lined up in the middle quite a bit .
 

TheKDog

Hall of Fame
Where is the stat that says Clowney was the most double team edge rusher ? He lined up in the middle quite a bit .


Tweet from @SethWalder: No player was double teamed at a higher rate as an edge rusher last season than Jadeveon Clowney (33%), according to ESPN passrushing metrics powered by NFL Next Gen Stats.



As far as absolute number, that's a good question
 
Tweet from @SethWalder: No player was double teamed at a higher rate as an edge rusher last season than Jadeveon Clowney (33%), according to ESPN passrushing metrics powered by NFL Next Gen Stats.



As far as absolute number, that's a good question
I’ve been digging around and I can’t find that tweet any where or anything referencing it. Can you please link to it.

I did, however, find lots of stuff about Donald being double teamed including that he is double teamed on 70% of plays. So Clowney was double teamed more than that on a team that also has Watt?

http://nflfootballjournal.blogspot.com/2018/11/aaron-donald-double-teamed-70-of-time.html

BE045776-875C-4693-A5A1-F456617CC21B.jpeg

That’s also from last season so apparently the NFL Next Gen Stats aren’t very consistent.
 

TheKDog

Hall of Fame
I’ve been digging around and I can’t find that tweet any where or anything referencing it. Can you please link to it.

I did, however, find lots of stuff about Donald being double teamed including that he is double teamed on 70% of plays. So Clowney was double teamed more than that on a team that also has Watt?

http://nflfootballjournal.blogspot.com/2018/11/aaron-donald-double-teamed-70-of-time.html

View attachment 4736

That’s also from last season so apparently the NFL Next Gen Stats aren’t very consistent.
https://twitter.com/SethWalder/status/1170060875375489029

Tweet from @SethWalder: No player was double teamed at a higher rate as an edge rusher last season than Jadeveon Clowney (33%), according to ESPN pass rushing metrics powered by NFL Next Gen Stats.


The Aaron Donald stat was in the middle of the season. Look at the date of the article. By the end of the season NextGen had clowney as the most double teamed.


I also found this:

Tweet from @ESPNStatsInfo: Last season, Jadeveon Clowney registered the 3rd-best pass rush win rate in the NFL, according to @NextGenStats (min. 300 pass rush attempts). https://t.co/EBPJz0rOAv
 
https://twitter.com/SethWalder/status/1170060875375489029

Tweet from @SethWalder: No player was double teamed at a higher rate as an edge rusher last season than Jadeveon Clowney (33%), according to ESPN pass rushing metrics powered by NFL Next Gen Stats.


The Aaron Donald stat was in the middle of the season. Look at the date of the article. By the end of the season NextGen had clowney as the most double teamed.


I also found this:

Tweet from @ESPNStatsInfo: Last season, Jadeveon Clowney registered the 3rd-best pass rush win rate in the NFL, according to @NextGenStats (min. 300 pass rush attempts). https://t.co/EBPJz0rOAv
Thank you, reading the comments below these numbers aren’t reliable.

Rossler: Is there anyway to tell how many of these double teams occurred on stunts/inside rushes? Clowney twisted a lot and was frequently used as an interior blitzer from an off-ball alignment so I'm wondering how much that is contributing to this figure.

Walter: Yeah that's a very good question. Post-update the way we have it set up I can't easily look up position of double teaming blockers but we should be able to do that in the semi-near future. That theory would make a lot of sense.

Walter: One thing I should note -- that double team number was only when he lined up as DE or OLB. Those plays where he sat as an off-ball ILB aren't counted here. Still, stunts inside could definitely be why his number is so high.

As far as his win rate I find that funny considering how few sacks he had. Are those wins counted before or after the QB has thrown or started running?
 

TheKDog

Hall of Fame
Thank you, reading the comments below these numbers aren’t reliable.

Rossler: Is there anyway to tell how many of these double teams occurred on stunts/inside rushes? Clowney twisted a lot and was frequently used as an interior blitzer from an off-ball alignment so I'm wondering how much that is contributing to this figure.

Walter: Yeah that's a very good question. Post-update the way we have it set up I can't easily look up position of double teaming blockers but we should be able to do that in the semi-near future. That theory would make a lot of sense.

Walter: One thing I should note -- that double team number was only when he lined up as DE or OLB. Those plays where he sat as an off-ball ILB aren't counted here. Still, stunts inside could definitely be why his number is so high.

As far as his win rate I find that funny considering how few sacks he had. Are those wins counted before or after the QB has thrown or started running?
Tweet from @btrossler: @SethWalder Good context, thanks. I personally wouldn't expect him to get a crazy high bump from just stunts alone, so maybe I'm misremembering/misperceiving how often teams doubled/chipped/slid to him. On that note, is there anything in the works for determining how often a DL was slid to?
 
Tweet from @btrossler: @SethWalder Good context, thanks. I personally wouldn't expect him to get a crazy high bump from just stunts alone, so maybe I'm misremembering/misperceiving how often teams doubled/chipped/slid to him. On that note, is there anything in the works for determining how often a DL was slid to?
Yeah I read that to, that’s his opinion. Walters seems to be the other way, that’s the only explanation for why Clowney would have suck high numbers because he sure has hell didn’t scare lines like Donald, Mack or Watt.

Lazy player that wanted to paid like an elite but can’t play like an elite, good riddance I say.
 

TheKDog

Hall of Fame
Yeah I read that to, that’s his opinion. Walters seems to be the other way, that’s the only explanation for why Clowney would have suck high numbers because he sure has hell didn’t scare lines like Donald, Mack or Watt.

Lazy player that wanted to paid like an elite but can’t play like an elite, good riddance I say.
Walter said it could be, not that it is. If stunts really generated that many double teams then why are no other players and teams doing the same thing?
 
Walter said it could be, not that it is. If stunts really generated that many double teams then why are no other players and teams doing the same thing?
Why would teams want to get double teamed? And the whole point is that Clowney’s double team numbers wouldn’t be real because he was getting double teamed by circumstances or where he was lined up at and how he tried to get past defenders, not because teams were assigning two guys to him like they do Watt.

Unless you’d like to argue that lines fear Clowney more, or even as much, as Donald, Mack, Watt or hell even Miller.
 

TheKDog

Hall of Fame
Why would teams want to get double teamed? And the whole point is that Clowney’s double team numbers wouldn’t be real because he was getting double teamed by circumstances or where he was lined up at and how he tried to get past defenders, not because teams were assigning two guys to him like they do Watt.

Unless you’d like to argue that lines fear Clowney more, or even as much, as Donald, Mack, Watt or hell even Miller.
The assertion that he's doubled because of stunts is not proven at all. He was also third in pass rush win rate which would be a good reason to double him
 

TheKDog

Hall of Fame
Last week:

DL Jadeveon Clowney - 80.8

Clowney was credited with three hurries, four total tackles and two run stops.

https://www.nbcsports.com/northwest/seattle-seahawks/week-6-pff-grades-seahawks-wrs-shaquill-griffin-earn-top-marks-vs-browns


@PFF_Chiefs: #Chiefs ED Frank Clark had a few season highs and a career high on Sunday

• 89.9 Run D grade (Career Best)
• 5 Pressures (Season High)
• 2 QB Hits (Season High)
• 1 Forced Fumble (1st of 2019)

: Jay Biggerstaff, USA Today

https://t.co/eQoKvEmIss

#ChiefsKingdom https://t.co/aL7JExjaC0

I haven't seen anything on mercilus yet
 

Honoring Earl 34

Something Witty !
For what its worth here are their stats so far:

Mercilus: 5 sacks, 1 int, 5 TFL, 4 FF, 7 QBH

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MercWh00.htm

Clowney: 1 sack, 1 int, 1 TFL, 1 FF, 3 QBH

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/C/ClowJa00.htm

Clark: 1 sack, 1 int, 3 TFL, 1 FF, 3 QBH

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/C/ClarFr01.htm
Production over analysis . I would also add that the Texans rank higher in total defense than the Seahawks . That's after playing Brees , Rivers , Mahomes , and Ryan .
 
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thunderkyss

It's good to be me... again.
Staff member
Contributor's Club
Tweet from @aaronjreiss: Texans fans should read this story on the Colts' run-heavy offense.

A year after Houston ranked 1st in run defense DVOA, the team, now Clowney-less, ranks 11th. https://twitter.com/HolderStephen/status/1184515698384658432
I don't think anyone doubts this defense is not the same as last years. No one I know thought we wouldn't miss Clowney in run defense. No one I know would have given Clowney away for a third & two guys who seem to have disappeared since the trade.

Still... he's gone & has been replaced with a better pass rusher.
 

steelbtexan

Hall of Fame
Tweet from @aaronjreiss: Texans fans should read this story on the Colts' run-heavy offense.

A year after Houston ranked 1st in run defense DVOA, the team, now Clowney-less, ranks 11th. https://twitter.com/HolderStephen/status/1184515698384658432
Remember the Texans played crappy teams last yr excuse.

This yr they're playing elite QB's so this really doesn't surprise me, with or without Clowney. Remember I was in the franchise and keep Clowney then trade him in the offseason camp.
 

steelbtexan

Hall of Fame
I don't think anyone doubts this defense is not the same as last years. No one I know thought we wouldn't miss Clowney in run defense. No one I know would have given Clowney away for a third & two guys who seem to have disappeared since the trade.

Still... he's gone & has been replaced with a better pass rusher.
Martin got some pressure on Mahomes last game IRRC.
 


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