Yeah...he had TWO 28 yard runs against us. And a few more 6+ yard runs. My entire point is that we had a run defender that could have helped in that situation. Murray actually only gained 17 yards if you take away his 30 yarder. So other than 1 run by Murray, he wasn't very good against us. Kamara on the other hand lit us up multiple times and multiple ways.
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Clowney VS Mercilus VS Frank Clark
- Thread starter Wolf12339
- Start date
Yeah...he had TWO 28 yard runs against us. And a few more 6+ yard runs. My entire point is that we had a run defender that could have helped in that situation. Murray actually only gained 17 yards if you take away his 30 yarder. So other than 1 run by Murray, he wasn't very good against us. Kamara on the other hand lit us up multiple times and multiple ways.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
Clowney's a plus defender...but he wasn't helping us against the Saints anymore than he did against the Colts in the playoffs.They effectively ran it down our throats & Clowney as this supposed elite run defender ya'll keep touting couldn't do much to stop it. Hell most of the time they were running at him.
Lets just leave it at that.
You can leave it at that if you want....
However, that doesn't change the fact that he is in fact an elite run defender. If you're graded out in the top 10 in the category....that's elite in my book.
The problem is we'll never know if he could have helped because our fool of a HC/GM traded him for 1 tackle and 1 penalty(declined). (Martin/Mingo)
Looking at the stats this year, so far Clowney isn't lighting it up by any means but through 2 games he is doing 4 times as well as the M&M twins in tackles and he has a sack to add to it. And I know....Mercilus is doing great...however he would have been on the field with Clowney if Clowney were still here. I'd definitely prefer our LB'ers to look like Clowney, Cunningham, McKinney, Mercilus and have Scarlett backing up Clowney as opposed to Martin backing up Scarlett.
Man you’re wasting your time. He’s incapable of seeing any other POV. He’ll eventually just tell you you’re not as smart as him.
badboy
Hall of Fame
Clowney's tag was 16 million with us paying 7 so that leaves us 9 million in savings that will go a long way to extending or renegotiating some of our players such as Tunsil.
Except we are paying barkevious and Martin, and clowney was just on a one year tag
badboy
Hall of Fame
The 2019 cap space of 25 million dollars allows for the contracts of the two you mentioned. In addition both Martin and Barkevious can be cut saving most of the cap space. Mingo would be my choice as he's done zero to impress so far. Martin's cap figure is approximately half a million dollars which is miniscule.
From what I heard thru the grapevine is that there was a lot of animosity towards Clowney , not only from coaches but players too.
He didn't seem to care about getting better or developing anything other than the bull rush. Not until he was forced to did he seek outside help in developing or adding to his pass rush repertoire.
He also showed up late , left early and didn't fully participate in multiple practices …
Add those things to the knee issue …. I can see why OB wanted to move on , even if I don't like the return they got …. they really made a mess of the situation by tendering him , had they not done that they would have had a lot more options in moving him and could have gotten a significantly better package if that's what they intended to do from the get go.
I really think that's yet to be determined.
They paid for a cornerstone LT …. who hasn't played up to that billing just yet.
I do kinda give him a pass , starting that first game after only 5 days with the team … and the second 6 days later. But before we say he's a cornerstone , he's got a lot of improvement to make.
Yes , he has been better than the hot garbage we had otherwise ...
maverick512000
Hall of Fame
I think Tunsil will live up to his billing. At the very least he was by far the best option available since the only other choices this off season were Kalil, a drafted rookie or Trent Brown a very expensive middle of the pack guy. It seems the skins are serious about Williams playing for them or not playing at all which doesn’t surprise me. The McNairs are football geniuses compared to the idiots calling the shots for that team.
Only part that scares me is Devlin and the fact he coaches guys like they are going to play a game of red rosy instead of blocking 300 lb gorillas hell bent on pushing Watson’s face into the ground. Play calling and bad deal making aside the fact Devlin is still here should have at least put BoB in the hot seat after Watson’s rookie year.
Dutchrudder
Hall of Fame
Ok, now do the evaluation with Clowney and Mercilus on the same team.
Very interesting. It makes sense.
Maybe this was the rift that got Gaine fired? Especially if he advocated tagging Clowney and O'Brien wanted to ship him out.
And the space allowed for clowney too and he would come off the books with zero hit next year.
All this discussion in #$^*^$# minutiae. The Clowney trade should have been made before the draft. You get what you can in Clowney trade then make sure you get Dilliard.
Then you don't need to make some dumbass BOB trade for Tunsil. Who knows we might have been able to pry Tunsil away for just one first rounder if we had Dilliard. Then you have first round draft choice to use as you wish. The difference between players now is not the main issue. Don't get caught up in the difference of day to day performance of players.
The key is making the crucial decision correctly. Something BOB/Texans don't do. They got it right on Watson but even a blind hog finds an acorn. Just my opinion.
Then you don't need to make some dumbass BOB trade for Tunsil. Who knows we might have been able to pry Tunsil away for just one first rounder if we had Dilliard. Then you have first round draft choice to use as you wish. The difference between players now is not the main issue. Don't get caught up in the difference of day to day performance of players.
The key is making the crucial decision correctly. Something BOB/Texans don't do. They got it right on Watson but even a blind hog finds an acorn. Just my opinion.
maverick512000
Hall of Fame
Maybe you could clarify a few things for me.
1. I agree the Clowney trade was bad and I would have made him play on the tag this season but if you just get what you can then how is that different from what we got?
2. How would Dillard help us? Assuming he’s not a bust there is no way he’s ready this year then you have at least another year of Watson getting killed.
3. How would having Dillard have dropped Tunsil’s price tag? Miami would have still known we have a rookie slated for LT and if we are calling them about Tunsil then we are just as desperate.
4. How is the difference in players not an issue? With Tunsil you have a LT that can start protecting Watson now, with Dillard, Howard or any drafted LT you have at least a year of him getting hammered. Then you have a greater chance of losing your franchise QB.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
I see other POV’s just fine....when they make sense.
I will do some digging on the Gaine situation , I really don't believe that the Clowney situation alone would have caused that.
To be clear, Watson is NOT protected with Tunsil. He is still getting hit like crazy.
I would have signed Nsekhe and traded up for Dillard. Then there's a chance Tytus falls anyways. And I probably would have kept Lamm too because even though he's mediocre he's actually a real NFL backup unlike Seantrel.
Then you would protect Watson better and still have your first round picks the next two years.
Of course I never would have gotten rid of Brown, Brooks and Jones in the first place, but OBrien gonna OBrien.
Clowney have trade should have been done before last year when a team could negotiate an extension. After the tag his value drops to almost nothing. Failing that just play him on the tag since he was willing to do so
I would have signed Nsekhe and traded up for Dillard. Then there's a chance Tytus falls anyways. And I probably would have kept Lamm too because even though he's mediocre he's actually a real NFL backup unlike Seantrel.
Then you would protect Watson better and still have your first round picks the next two years.
Of course I never would have gotten rid of Brown, Brooks and Jones in the first place, but OBrien gonna OBrien.
Clowney have trade should have been done before last year when a team could negotiate an extension. After the tag his value drops to almost nothing. Failing that just play him on the tag since he was willing to do so
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maverick512000
Hall of Fame
Still think that wasn’t football related, the way and speed that it happened just reminds me of to many times where we had to get a guy off site due to busting a drug test, fighting, using a racial slur or some other instant termination offense. Not saying at all that’s what happened but just seems weird that if it was football related why move so fast? If it was a fully new owner trying to make his mark then maybe but Cal has been right there from day one having a say in everything.
I think OBrien wanted full power all along. Gets rid of anyone who might question him
So now he's surrounded by a chaplain who knows nothing and a cap guy who doesn't evaluate players. He wants yes men.
maverick512000
Hall of Fame
According to you when they hired Gaine he was just a yes man. So yeah everyone sucks until they are no longer working for/with Bill O’Brien then at that point they are the best thing to happen to this team. Except RAC who is the greatest DC the world has ever seen......as long as he’s not playing against a decent QB.
Yes I think OBrien hired gaine just to do what he said.
When gaine was like maybe we shouldnt trade all our picks, he was gone and replaced with a chaplain. Same exact thing happened to Rick.
Although I don't think Rick and gaine are good gms, RAC is a good DC.
OBrien has wanted full control the entire time now he's running the franchise into the ground. The team sucks and has no path to get better for several years
maverick512000
Hall of Fame
I agree the team does suck, especially the defense.
This year the defense sucks thanks to OBrien trading away clowney for nothing and Matthieu leaving because we spent everything on the offense or he doesn't like OBrien.
Doesn't help that O'Brien reached for an LT in the first round when there were good CBs available
maverick512000
Hall of Fame
Yeah I agree, without first/second round picks and pro bowl level players RAC has no hope of making his schemes work. It’s because RAC can’t coach the talent out of guys so if it’s not there in the first place he’s screwed.
Every coach needs talent to win.
This is what OBrien doesn't understand. Culture does not win crap.
I don't care how hard Nick Martin and Seantrel Henderson practice. One guy is mediocre and the other shouldn't be in the NFL.
Bark can only play special teams, and OBrien loves that, but I'd rather have clowney. Jacob can't stop the run at all.
maverick512000
Hall of Fame
Yeah but unlike good DCs RAC needs his guys to be pro bowl level or at least instant starter level talent.
There are no good defenses without pro bowlers
You guys can make all the assumptions you want , I'm not going to comment further until I have some information ...
maverick512000
Hall of Fame
So you admit that if RAC doesn’t have a full team of pro bowlers then his play calling doesn’t work. I mean wasn’t it you that’s always talked about how great our defense is? So why weren’t we being talked about in the same breath as the 2000 Ravens or the 2014 Broncos or even the steel curtain. It’s because RAC is a bad DC.
No I don't admit.
Even if Crennel sucks, how does that make OBrien good? Didn't OBrien hire him?
maverick512000
Hall of Fame
Yeah and as you said BoB can’t evaluate talent so apparently that applies to DCs as well.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
The culture is what’s most responsible for what’s going on in foxboro. You think TB12 keeps taking massive paycuts just b/c he loves kraft and Beli so much? If Brady really commands what he’s worth, there’s no way in hell their dynasty spans as long as it has.
You think Jaime Collins comes back b/c he loves Beli so much after he shipped him off? Hell no, those dudes come to play for Beli b/c the culture of winning pervades everything they do...
Is Antonio brown a good culture guy?
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
Nope. But for that matter neither was Moss. Neither was Dennis Rodman when the Bulls brought his crazy ass into the fold. The culture of these teams allow for them to absorb guys like Brown and get them to fall in line. Aside from that it’s not like they needed him to win anyway. To be real he needed them more than they needed him.
That's true he needed them more. He makes them slightly better which they might need to get past KC this year
I think you've lost all objectivity.
- Deshaun Watson
- DeAndre Hopkins
- Jj Watt
- Bernardrick McKinney
- Jonathan Joseph
- Tashaun Gipson
Am I missing someone
- Deshaun Watson
- DeAndre Hopkins
- Jj Watt
- Bernardrick McKinney
- Jonathan Joseph
- Tashaun Gipson
I thought Tunsil made it. Guess not.
Yeah of confusing. But they did get their LT, edge and #2 corner back
maverick512000
Hall of Fame
Think we are going to be saying that about a lot of teams this season.
texanhead08
All Pro
The league is like that every year its unpredictable until around Thanksgiving and 4-5 teams separate themselves from the pack.
1. I think we could have gotten a better deal before the draft for Clowney (because the other team could sign him before trading) that allows us to get Dillard and something else that would help us long term.
2. I am trying to build for the future also. Problem with this team is no long plan at all. Right now we do not have Tunsil signed long term. Can you imagine 2 firsts for him and then he decides he doesn't want to sign. Stupid move gets worse. Overpaid to begin with.
3.I don't think the little teapot goes on full tilt and makes that trade for Tunsil. We walk and get better deal or do something else. Part of problem with Watson getting hit is play calling and offensive scheme. Also Watson needs to help himself by getting rid of ball quicker in some cases and taking what is given.
4 Not referring to LTs. Topic was Clowney VS Mercilus VS Frank Clark
1. Agreed
2. They will get Tunsil signed long term, no need to worry.
3. The OL has 3 new guys Tunsil/2 Rookies and a QB that's going into what's basically his 2nd yr. Growing pains should be expected. I actually thought the OL had a good game despite this.
4. If Mercilus continues like he has the 1st two games of this season, he's going to get paid.