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Clowney VS Mercilus VS Frank Clark

gafftop said:
1. I think we could have gotten a better deal before the draft for Clowney (because the other team could sign him before trading) that allows us to get Dillard and something else that would help us long term.
2. I am trying to build for the future also. Problem with this team is no long plan at all. Right now we do not have Tunsil signed long term. Can you imagine 2 firsts for him and then he decides he doesn't want to sign. Stupid move gets worse. Overpaid to begin with.
3.I don't think the little teapot goes on full tilt and makes that trade for Tunsil. We walk and get better deal or do something else. Part of problem with Watson getting hit is play calling and offensive scheme. Also Watson needs to help himself by getting rid of ball quicker in some cases and taking what is given.
4 Not referring to LTs. Topic was Clowney VS Mercilus VS Frank Clark
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1: Dillard MAY help us long term but then we have another year of Watson getting broken in half.

2: What makes you think it wasn't Tunsil that said "i'm going to wait till this contract plays out before resigning."

3: What better deal would that be exactly? Dillard wouldn't help us his rookie season and its not like LT are falling out of the sky. Rest I agree with.

4: If you are going to complain about not being on topic you might want to reread what you said.

gafftop said:
All this discussion in #$^*^$# minutiae. The Clowney trade should have been made before the draft. You get what you can in Clowney trade then make sure you get Dilliard.
Then you don't need to make some dumbass BOB trade for Tunsil. Who knows we might have been able to pry Tunsil away for just one first rounder if we had Dilliard. Then you have first round draft choice to use as you wish. The difference between players now is not the main issue. Don't get caught up in the difference of day to day performance of players.

The key is making the crucial decision correctly. Something BOB/Texans don't do. They got it right on Watson but even a blind hog finds an acorn. Just my opinion.
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Absolutely no where in there do you compare the three or, hell, even mention Mercilus or Clark. Clowney you only mention to talk about how much you dislike the trade. You mentioned LTs much more than you did anything else so yeah you are referring to LTs.
 
steelbtexan said:
They have in 2020 atleast

2nd
Two 3rds atleast
Two 4ths including Miami's which will be 4-1.

So yes they have picks to move up in the draft if they choose too and yes if they do their jobs properly they should be able to find talent. Why are you so worried? They got their cornerstone LT and the 2018 draft should be comforting to you.
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Considering we got our franchise LT a year early with our #1 pick, I agree the 2020 draft has the potential to be outstanding. It's hard to fathom the negativity.
 
Corrosion said:
From what I heard thru the grapevine is that there was a lot of animosity towards Clowney , not only from coaches but players too.
He didn't seem to care about getting better or developing anything other than the bull rush. Not until he was forced to did he seek outside help in developing or adding to his pass rush repertoire.

He also showed up late , left early and didn't fully participate in multiple practices …

Add those things to the knee issue …. I can see why OB wanted to move on , even if I don't like the return they got …. they really made a mess of the situation by tendering him , had they not done that they would have had a lot more options in moving him and could have gotten a significantly better package if that's what they intended to do from the get go.
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I had read just the briefest comments that Clowney's situation was not all that favorable. I had heard one comment he was a.cancer in the locker room. Your post is the most in depth report I have seen about the situation. Much appreciated.
 
Texansballer74 said:
That is not what I heard from my boy who sister is dating a Texans player.
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Actually I’ve heard from a friend that used to work with the team reports that match what Corrosion is saying. We all know JD is supremely talented. If he was a low key hard worker, why would they have dumped him? It wouldn’t make sense, BOB loves guys like that. My contact said immaturity was JDs biggest problem, and that matches Corrosion’s info.
 
I can not wait till RC takes the training wheels off of Charles Omenihu and he adds more to the pass rush. So far all I have seen of him is one pass rush. On that one pass rush he was just a step behind Watt and Mercilus at sacking the quarterback. That was week one against the Saints and Drew Brees.
 
otisbean said:
Actually I’ve heard from a friend that used to work with the team reports that match what Corrosion is saying. We all know JD is supremely talented. If he was a low key hard worker, why would they have dumped him? It wouldn’t make sense, BOB loves guys like that. My contact said immaturity was JDs biggest problem, and that matches Corrosion’s info.
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The issue was Clowney wanted to be paid the way they were using him. The Texans didn't want to do that. So Clowney said he will only play one position on the field verses being moved around and having to check running backs out the backfield. Bill O'Brien is a guy that if you speak up against what they want you to do. Then you're out of here. The same with Foreman, he didn't want to play special teams. Brock wanted to run more hurry up offense.

Do you see the trend.
 
Texansballer74 said:
The issue was Clowney wanted to be paid the way they were using him. The Texans didn't want to do that. So Clowney said he will only play one position on the field verses being moved around and having to check running backs out the backfield. Bill O'Brien is a guy that if you speak up against what they want you to do. Then you're out of here. The same with Foreman, he didn't want to play special teams. Brock wanted to run more hurry up offense.

Do you see the trend.
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They're all "me" first guys?
 
otisbean said:
Actually I’ve heard from a friend that used to work with the team reports that match what Corrosion is saying. We all know JD is supremely talented. If he was a low key hard worker, why would they have dumped him? It wouldn’t make sense, BOB loves guys like that. My contact said immaturity was JDs biggest problem, and that matches Corrosion’s info.
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It wouldn't be the first time he's dumped a guy for a dumb reason
 
Texansballer74 said:
The issue was Clowney wanted to be paid the way they were using him. The Texans didn't want to do that. So Clowney said he will only play one position on the field verses being moved around and having to check running backs out the backfield. Bill O'Brien is a guy that if you speak up against what they want you to do. Then you're out of here. The same with Foreman, he didn't want to play special teams. Brock wanted to run more hurry up offense.

Do you see the trend.
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I don’t disagree at all with your post, I’m just adding that there were immaturity issues as well. The way I see it, Clowney isn’t here for multiple reasons:
1) as you mentioned he wanted to be paid as a top pass rusher, which he is not (doesn’t mean he isn’t a great player), that’s why he had issues with checking RBs - those guys don’t make the same money
2) as Corrosion and my guy mentioned, there were immaturity and work ethic issues
3) you cannot ignore the serious knee injury he sustained, the fact that he is playing well is a miracle of modern science
4) from a cap perspective, it’s difficult to have 2 100 million plus players on the DL. If we signed Clowney, how would we have made Martin the second highest paid center in the league? I’m joking of course, still can’t rap my head around that.

Another tidbit, since you mentioned Brock, not to derail the thread, but they regretted signing him almost immediately. He rapidly turned into a giant Diva. When you combine that with his mediocre at best play it’s easy to see why he’s gone.
 
TheKDog said:
It wouldn't be the first time he's dumped a guy for a dumb reason
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If the reports are true I have no issue dumping Clowney. What I have a MAJOR issue with is the timing. Had they traded Clowney prior to the draft and we ended up with the package of picks Sea got for Clark, the Tunsil trade would look waaaay better. Heck, we might have the draft capital to get in the Ramsey trade discussions
 
We don't know what clowney wanted to be paid, additionally he was willing to play on the tag one year.

That said I do think signing him would be too much money at edge when we have merciless.

This assumes were resign Merc who is a free agent after this year
 
otisbean said:
I don’t disagree at all with your post, I’m just adding that there were immaturity issues as well. The way I see it, Clowney isn’t here for multiple reasons:
1) as you mentioned he wanted to be paid as a top pass rusher, which he is not (doesn’t mean he isn’t a great player), that’s why he had issues with checking RBs - those guys don’t make the same money
2) as Corrosion and my guy mentioned, there were immaturity and work ethic issues
3) you cannot ignore the serious knee injury he sustained, the fact that he is playing well is a miracle of modern science
4) from a cap perspective, it’s difficult to have 2 100 million plus players on the DL. If we signed Clowney, how would we have made Martin the second highest paid center in the league? I’m joking of course, still can’t rap my head around that.

Another tidbit, since you mentioned Brock, not to derail the thread, but they regretted signing him almost immediately. He rapidly turned into a giant Diva. When you combine that with his mediocre at best play it’s easy to see why he’s gone.
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I get what you're saying but the work ethic. The youngster stayed in top notch shape after the surgery. He didn't miss another game.

As far as the contract he wanted. It had more to do with him playing multiple positions as well as keeping that defense relevant when Watt went down.
 
TheKDog said:
We don't know what clowney wanted to be paid, additionally he was willing to play on the tag one year.

That said I do think signing him would be too much money at edge when we have merciless.

This assumes were resign Merc who is a free agent after this year
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Yeah he was going to play on the tag until he found out they were shopping him around. Mainly to the Dolphins.
 
And from what Seth Payne says on 610, the work ethic thing was true when he was a rookie but not anymore.

But once you're in the doghouse you're stuck. Unlike Nick Martin who is in the poodle penthouse
 
Texansballer74 said:
I get what you're saying but the work ethic. The youngster stayed in top notch shape after the surgery. He didn't miss another game.

As far as the contract he wanted. It had more to do with him playing multiple positions as well as keeping that defense relevant when Watt went down.
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You’re right he clearly looked to be in great shape. When I’m referring to work ethic, I’m talking more about, film study, working on an array of pass rush moves ect.... To my knowledge this was the first year we heard about him working on his pass rush skills during the off-season. I think he’s incredibly explosive, but he only has 2 moves, he tries to blow by you with speed and a bull rush. I haven’t seen much else from him. I believe Corrosion also referenced this in an early post. This could be why he hasn’t been able to get double digit sacks.
Freeney was super explosive as well, he could explode past you with speed and if he caught you over playing the speed, he’d spin back inside. He killed OL with that combination. Clowney has a different build, I wouldn’t expect him to be able to spin like Freeney, but he needs a counter to what he’s primarily using. Putting in the time to build a repertoire requires work ethic as well, and this is what he might be lacking.
 
TheKDog said:
We don't know what clowney wanted to be paid, additionally he was willing to play on the tag one year.
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I heard McClain state on 610 (so I don’t have a link) that he wanted a little more than Demarcus Lawrence but less than Donald/Mack.

Personally, I’d have kept him this year under the FT, then franchise and trade him prior to the 2020 to recoup some of the picks from the Tunsil trade
 
otisbean said:
I heard McClain state on 610 (so I don’t have a link) that he wanted a little more than Demarcus Lawrence but less than Donald/Mack.

Personally, I’d have kept him this year under the FT, then franchise and trade him prior to the 2020 to recoup some of the picks from the Tunsil trade
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Which sounds reasonable to me. With Watt that's a lot of money to spend on edge. But I did like that he soaked up double teams so Watt could do what he does best and get to the passer. Now Watt is taking doubles for merc
 
otisbean said:
I heard McClain state on 610 (so I don’t have a link) that he wanted a little more than Demarcus Lawrence but less than Donald/Mack.

Personally, I’d have kept him this year under the FT, then franchise and trade him prior to the 2020 to recoup some of the picks from the Tunsil trade
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From what is out there rumour-wise, at crunch time when our GM should have been doing this, he was having some kind of crisis where he was refusing to talk to anybody in the building, including the owner, apart from a few of the scouts whom he was willing to text.

Obviously at some point during this clusterflup of a sitiation JDC got beyond the point of negotiation, something that as a franchise they need to wise up to because its now happened with Clowney, DRob and Duane Brown (that i can think of) all of whom we were better with than without and all of whom would likely have signed if spoken to in the right way, at the right time.
 
welsh texan said:
From what is out there rumour-wise, at crunch time when our GM should have been doing this, he was having some kind of crisis where he was refusing to talk to anybody in the building, including the owner, apart from a few of the scouts whom he was willing to text.

Obviously at some point during this clusterflup of a sitiation JDC got beyond the point of negotiation, something that as a franchise they need to wise up to because its now happened with Clowney, DRob and Duane Brown (that i can think of) all of whom we were better with than without and all of whom would likely have signed if spoken to in the right way, at the right time.
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What? This really happened?
 
welsh texan said:
Obviously at some point during this clusterflup of a sitiation JDC got beyond the point of negotiation, something that as a franchise they need to wise up to because its now happened with Clowney, DRob and Duane Brown (that i can think of) all of whom we were better with than without and all of whom would likely have signed if spoken to in the right way, at the right time.
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I don't like the way it went down with any of those guys. Especially Brown. The other two... I wouldn't have paid them anything close to FA money.

Still I can't wait for the day players realize they & their careers are better with us than without.
 
thunderkyss said:
I don't like the way it went down with any of those guys. Especially Brown. The other two... I wouldn't have paid them anything close to FA money.

Still I can't wait for the day players realize they & their careers are better with us than without.
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you sound like Tex Schram who used to low-ball Duane Thomas, Bob Lilly, etc. then tell the rest of the team, "you can't make more than our stars"
 
Just to clarify the rumour I heard came via either State of the Texans or Texans Unfiltered podcast (cant remember which) and stated that from some point before the draf Gaine had refused to speak to anybody in the organisation except a handful of scouts (and even that was only by text), even blanking Cal in the building. It shines a new light on the timing of the firing as if this was the case then it had to be done.
 
welsh texan said:
Just to clarify the rumour I heard came via either State of the Texans or Texans Unfiltered podcast (cant remember which) and stated that from some point before the draf Gaine had refused to speak to anybody in the organisation except a handful of scouts (and even that was only by text), even blanking Cal in the building. It shines a new light on the timing of the firing as if this was the case then it had to be done.
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I heard from a friend KC reached out to us pre draft about Clowney, and by the time Gaine got back to them ready to do something they had already agreed to the Clark trade
 
Texazan said:
Winning???

Yea I know we got fleeced on the trade but hey gotta find some positivity in the darkness that was the shipping off of JDC
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We did get fleeced on the trade but if this is how Clowney plays in his contract year for the team he supposedly wanted to go to then I don't see us getting any better return if we had waited till next year. I'm not counting the compensary pick we might have got because frankly I can't figure out what voodoo math the NFL uses to figure that. I still don't like the trade but three games in it doesn't look like Clowney not being here is hurting us, we'll see what 8 games in looks like.
 
maverick512000 said:
We did get fleeced on the trade but if this is how Clowney plays in his contract year for the team he supposedly wanted to go to then I don't see us getting any better return if we had waited till next year. I'm not counting the compensary pick we might have got because frankly I can't figure out what voodoo math the NFL uses to figure that. I still don't like the trade but three games in it doesn't look like Clowney not being here is hurting us, we'll see what 8 games in looks like.
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Couldnt agree more. Yea about 8 games in should be a good barometer. I wonder how long until the Seahag fans turn on JD? :thinking:
 
Texazan said:
Couldnt agree more. Yea about 8 games in should be a good barometer. I wonder how long until the Seahag fans turn on JD? :thinking:
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They're only paying him $8 million for 1 year and they were able to get rid of mingo's bad contract. They'll get a compensatory third round pick if he leaves next year.

The comparison should be Watt+mercilus vs Watt+clowney last year (25 sacks plus elite run defense).
 
TheKDog said:
They're only paying him $8 million for 1 year and they were able to get rid of mingo's bad contract. They'll get a compensatory third round pick if he leaves next year.

The comparison should be Watt+mercilus vs Watt+clowney last year (25 sacks plus elite run defense).
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With regard to the compensatory pick, that’s only if they don’t sign anyone correct? For example we lost KJ and TM but because we signed Roby we only get 1 comp pick

It’s tough to compare, essentially Whitney and Clowney excel at the same position.
 
otisbean said:
With regard to the compensatory pick, that’s only if they don’t sign anyone correct? For example we lost KJ and TM but because we signed Roby we only get 1 comp pick

It’s tough to compare, essentially Whitney and Clowney excel at the same position.
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Yeah I'm not sure the exact compensatory rules.

Yep they play the same position, though mercilus doesn't draw the double teams clowney did. But he is still very good so I think trading clowney made sense for cap and roster reasons. With the emergence of reader as well the pass rush seems fine without clowney
 
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