Do you know that the 3-13 team that BB inherited in Cleveland went 12-4, 10-5, 10-6, and 9-6-1 the previous 4 years, and it took him 4 years to build a team with a winning record, but also went back to 5-11 in year 5?
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O'Brien vs. Kubiak
- Thread starter 76Texan
- Start date
And it took the great Tom Landry 7 years.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
Again so what Tom Coughlin had an expansion Jaguars team in the AFCCG in year 2..
Don Capers did the exact same thing with the expansion panthers...
does that mean they are better coaches than Belichick or Landry?
Of course not, don’t be silly.
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To be fair. Yesterday, he did take a break from the constant, repetitive Watson bashing to break out some of his "I hate Ricky" oldies, but goodies.
Look at my post above this one for your answer, the post Catalyst responded too.
I dont believe we've discussed the Rankin Hyde trade too much. Certainly not everyday. Nice try but I'm going to keep pointing out that both BOB/Kubiak were/are very avg HC's.
BTW, care to point out what wasn't true in that post of mine?
They made the playoffs 2 times in 8 yrs. I will give you a math problem, tell us the % of times Smithiak made the playoffs and when were those teams actually contenders?
Cant handle the truth I see.
Over 1,000 rushing behind the OL that you hate.
Got him for a guy they were going to cut.
LMAO
I'm going to gracefully bow out of this thread.
If being right is this important to you then you can have it.
This thread is a joke & i can't believe its still going on... "No, i said AFTER year 5..". Lol, If you've got to limit the scope that much to try & make your case, it probably means your case wasn't that good to begin with.
I also wonder if you felt the same way about the Texans back in 2007 under Kubiak when they gave up what they did for Schaub.
At least with Tunsil, you knew what you were getting..a proven, franchise stabilizing LT to protect the blindside of your franchise qb......which he proved with a pro bowl season right out of the gate. That's not even counting what Stills brought to the table in the trade. At the time of the Schaub acquisition, Kubiak was:
still giving bums like Chris Brown and Ryan Moats starters snaps at rb.......
we had 0 depth behind AJ at WR
& we had bums like Fred Bennett, CC Brown and Petey &^*$# Faggins getting significant playing time in our secondary lol.
Yet, even with a roster full of holes EVERYWHERE, he still felt it was worth it to throw away valuable draft capital (swap of 1sts, & 2 2nd rounders i believe) on an unproven, noodle-armed slug in Matt Schaub.
that perpetual 8-8, 9-7 level of mediocrity started under Kubiak right there & the damn trade didn't even start to look like anything until 4 years in it........mostly b/c during that time, Schaub couldn't stay healthy, but also too b/c the roster was largely still trash. So 5 years into Kubiak's tenure here, AJ was still the only real threat at WR.......He was still trying to find depth behind the now emerging Arian Foster & we still had bums like Eugene Wilson starting in the secondary. Think those 2 2nd rounders in 2007 & 2008 could've changed that a little bit? 1st rounders get all the hype for immediate impact players, but the truth is teams look for & often find those guys in the 2nd round as well. Idiots like John Lopez pump out a narrative that its only in the 1st & dudes like you gobble it all up.
The Texans will definitely be hurt in 2021 with no 1st or 2nd, but the truth is between the cap space we have and the current roster & the fact that we have our 2nd this year we are set up to be able to withstand 1 year of no 1st or 2nd rounder.
Exactly
If they cant withstand the 2021 draft like they did the 2018 draft then they should all be fired.
banned1976
sleeper mode
I for one am happy this thread exists. After all the back and forth in various threads over the last several years about which equally unremarkable HC was/is less remarkable than the other, it’s finally been contained in one big fat thread. It’s safe to go back in the water.
Good for them.
But let's not forget, those two expansion teams were given a lot to work with to begin with.
....
You want to say it takes Kubiak too long to build a team; I said it takes that long because the roster was so devoid of talent.
Worse than what BB had.
That line was poor in protection.
The opponents play lots of 2 deep coverage.
They also have to respect Fuller's speed, and they have to keep an eye on DW4, too.
How hard is it to understand that the RB has more room to run under these conditions.
And if you like a back with fumbling problem, have it your way.
I don't.
And what does Carlos Hyde have to do with the big picture of this thread here?
He's a very insignificant part of the "discussion".
Speedy
Former Yeller Dweller
Now if we only had an ignore thread feature.
Texansballer74
The Marine
So are you calling Bill O’Brien a liar now? Because he’s the one that said they work as a collective group. And from this past off season he surely wasn’t opposed to giving away draft capital.
Texansballer74
The Marine
You know what he failed to say how the rushing game fell off during the same time Watson played poorly. Having a running game helps the entire offense out. Example: Tennessee Titans
But again it doesn’t fit in with his with his chain of thought. So we’re not going to bring up that key component the ENTIRE PUZZLE.
Texansballer74
The Marine
Would’ve been nice to have them both. We could’ve used Miller the way he should’ve been used.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
Sure it was bad........& he helped prolong its horribleness by co-signing shitty picks and FA acquisitions by Smith such as Wali Lundy, Antoine Caldwell Ahman Green and Shelly Smith. The ironic thing is, he doubled down on that shitty roster and hamstrung his team in the process by giving away multiple high round picks to get a qb that wasn’t capable of elevating it, but on the contrary, needed exactly what we didn’t have at the time ...a team with decent talent. And it wasn’t until when that was achieved 4 years later after Schaub’s Acquistion did he begin to show what he could do.
truth is, Kubiak probably never gets over the hump if it wasn’t for the 2006 draft which in hindsight looks more like luck than skill.
With sound FA and drafting acquistions, that roster could’ve been turned over much faster than the 6 years it took him to.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
Apparently Kubiak liked them too. Steve Slaton fumbled 10 times in 2 years.....lost 5 of them. Kubiak continued to give him the rock tho....
Foster coming out of college also had a rep as a fumbler....
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CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
It wasn't that these HC's were so great, their "overnight" obtained talent level was that great.
Both of those teams were "gifted" unbelievable deals when they entered the League. Their expansion draft allowed them to pick from team lists that didn't allow players that were IR'ed the prior season (Texans' list included players that were IR'ed after the prior season began)............the list of 6 players from each team could be removed, only 1 for each player taken (Texans saw 1 taken of a list of 5 after the 1st pick, then all the remaining 3 removed with a 2nd pick off their list).
Furthermore, the Panthers and Jaguars also had an increased salary cap for their first Free Agency whereas the Texans didn't. If that wasn't enough, the NFL gave those expansion teams 14 extra draft choices over the first two seasons, including extra picks in the first and second rounds in 1995. That allowed the teams to load up on lots of good players with cheap contracts.
The League realized that the rules for the expansion Panthers and jaguars were ridiculously generous...........and when it came time for the next expansion, the rules changes and take backs screwed the Texans royally.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
no I get that, my point to him was that there are plenty of examples of coaches that were successful in turning their rosters over to get talent in faster than the 5 years it wound up taking Kubiak to do it. The cupboard also wasn’t all that bare for him either considering he inherited AJ, went out and got his QB in Schaub and then in his 2nd year got the best draft to date in franchise history. Problem is the rest of that 5 year time frame before 2011, the other drafts and pieces he had brought in were garbage.
Let's not get too far ahead of ourselves here.
Like I said, I'm still on year one.
On the Wali Lundi thing, go back to the post where I mentioned Domanick Davis Williams and his contract that Kubiak was stuck with.
Not only that, due to the diagnosis of the physical staff, however they did it, he passed the physical.
Kubiak was stuck with a RB that can't play, but commanded big dollar at the time.
The draft had long passed.
He had no choice but to play Dayne, Lundi, and Gado.
Unfortunately, Dayne stepped on Spencer in game 2 and ended his promising career.
(That would have solved the Oline situation earlier.)
.....
And yes, they took a bit of a risk on Ahman Green the next year, 2007, but only about $6.5M was guaranteed.
And look at the year he had in 06:
1,432 yards from scrimmage.
Hyde had never come close to that.
And Green came because he played under Sherman in Green Bay.
They figured if only Green would just last a couple of years while they rebuilt the rest.
I don't want to get too much into things here, because like I said, I'm still on year one.
If you have anything you want to talk about in year one, I'm more than happy to oblige.
For the rest, may I ask that you please wait.
Why should there be?
It's easy enough to skip it.
Why is this thread not relevant?
If anything, IMHO, your post is not relevant and should be deleted.
Thank you.
Cant stand it can you?
I hear you, but even you said that he was a type of stop-gap starter.
I was thinking that in every draft, you need to find 3 solid starters; not only that but they also come cheap with their rookie contract.
Hyde served his purpose, but it wasn't like the Texans had found their featured back.
What?
I didn't like Slaton when he started fumbling his second year.
(Even though some 2-3 of them were under difficult situations. I can't remember what they were, but I remember studying a lot of game films back then.
I might still have them on some DVDs somewhere.)
So, no.
I don't like RB that doesn't take care of the rock.
Come on Aggie fans you gotta support your slightly better than .500 HC's a** here.
I know BOB's slightly more successful (More playoff appearances) .500 a** isn't going to get much love here.
Y'all can do better than this. Let that hate out, it will be good for y'all. Isn't that what this thread is really all about?
I know BOB's slightly more successful (More playoff appearances) .500 a** isn't going to get much love here.
Y'all can do better than this. Let that hate out, it will be good for y'all. Isn't that what this thread is really all about?
Show me how the cupboard wasn't bared?
Besides AJ, who was there?
And as CNND had said, your examples of the two expansion teams don't apply.
Show me a HC that inherited a team with 18 wins the previous 4 years combined to have it turned around faster.
(There are, but just a few)
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Texansballer74
The Marine
Now what’s up with the cheap shots at Aggie fans. What does that have to do with anything.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
The previous 3-4 years before Sean Mcvay the rams had won only 17-20 games under Fisher.
Last 3-4 years under Leslie Frazier before Zimmer the Vikings had won like 20 games as well.
Sean McDermott has had the Bills in the playoffs 2 of the last 3 years after Rex Ryan’s 3 miserable years...
Don’t act like because these coaches had inherited teams that had won a few more games over a 3-4 year span than the Texans had at the time Kubiak took over that that’s some huge advantage they had over him.
Fact is It has been shown that it can be done with numerous HC’s over the years and it could’ve been done in Kubiak’s situation.....but it wasn’t.He took over and had a great playmaker in AJ and a pretty good Starting cub in Dunta..Jason Babin wasn’t Exactly a bum either. The very next year in the draft he picked up Daniels, Mario, Demeco and Eric Winston...he also went out and got Schaub...Myers at Center was also picked up that year in FA too I believe. The cupboard wasn’t bare and if it was, it wasn’t for long b/c he got IMMEDIATE help in the draft and FA after his 1st year with the players named above...yet it would still take him another 3 years to finish acquiring enough talent and build a team worth a damn that could compete. That’s no ones fault but Kubiak’s....& Smith’s.
Own that and stop copping pleas for him, you’re embarrassing yourself.
4 years before McVay, the Rams had won 24 games, not 18.
Same with Zimmer.
The 4 years before McDermott. the Bills had won 30 games.
Please try again.
You said numerous, yet you haven't come up with even one HC.
Here, I give you what O'Brien inherited:
9 staters on offense, and 8 on defense.
www.pro-football-reference.com
Not counting backup QBs Keenum and Yates, TE Griffin (and OD that OBrien decided to let go)
Not counting Manning and Bouye.
He also got a kicker, punter, LS, and a mediocre return man or two.
9 staters on offense, and 8 on defense.
2014 Houston Texans Roster & Players | Pro-Football-Reference.com
Check out the 2014 Houston Texans Roster, Players , Starters and more on Pro-Football-Reference.com.
www.pro-football-reference.com
Not counting backup QBs Keenum and Yates, TE Griffin (and OD that OBrien decided to let go)
Not counting Manning and Bouye.
He also got a kicker, punter, LS, and a mediocre return man or two.
Back then, I was a bit sorry for Capers, too.
Especially with the Boselli matter.
And he wasn't lucky enough to have Carson Palmer come out that year.
David Carr had talent, but he didn't have the drive to be a really succesful QB in the NFL. It takes a lot of work.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
Lol the mistake u make is thinking that u and u alone get to define the terms of what constitutes a tough situation for a HC to walk into. You don’t. Point is these guys walked into situations that were not ideal and very similar had not been ideal for many years prior to them coming in and turning them around inside of 3 years.
And as I said, just b/c those teams had won a few more games than the Texans had in the prior 3-4 years doesn’t make it any less tough consider that none of them had QB’s when they got there.
You have literally been proven wrong at every point in this thread about Kubiak’s tenure here just like you’ve been proven wrong time and time again about your boy Keenum. It’s time for u to throw in the towel.
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Sometimes you trade for need and win. When Miller went down the Hyde trade was necessary. I'm of the mindset that 1. There's alot of reasons to criticize BOB but this ain't one of them.
No cheap shots,
They can do better at defending their man.
Uncle Rico
Ur apology should be as loud as Ur disrespect was
You keep saying things that you can't prove.
I had no problem there.
All I'm saying is that you need to get a solid starter for the entire length of a rookie contract, be it 4 years or 5.
And you need at least 3 of them each year on the average to maintain a stable roster; otherwise, it will eventually erode.
Rankin was not a legitimate starter for the Texans at any point; Hyde had one year.
Rankin was drafted in 2018 with a mid third; the team needs to have a solid starter with that pick for at least 4 years; they did not.
That is a fail.
The things you haven't proved:
You have yet to tell me of any guy in that bad of a situation, let alone proving that they had it turned around within 3 years.
Kubiak did not have a legit when he first got here either.
1. Show me where I had been proven wrong about Kubiak in this thread.
2. Show me where I had been proven wrong about Keenum.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
And you keep trying to further narrow the scope to make your boy look better than he actually was here. Literally nothing you've brought to this thread has proven 1 way or the other that Kubiak was way better than BoB has been here. To be truthful, you've actually made him look worse by telling fibs.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
The Carlos Hyde "fumble" narrative.....Last year, dude has fumbled on average throughout his career no more or less than Arian did in his years here..Matter fact, Arian has a 6 fumble season in his career, Hyde does not. Slaton has a 7 fumble season, yet Kubiak continued to give that dude the ball for 2 seasons afterward....even when he knew he had issues holding onto the ball b/c of his health. So the whole, "yeah, if you like rb's with fumble problems" argument is a joke & as i said, if that's the case, Kubiak must've loved those types of backs cause he had 2 of them.
Your whole narrative about Kubiak not "robbing peter to pay paul" Like BoB did........................ when that's exactly what Kubiak did to land a largely mediocore qb in Schaub back in 2007 which subsequently stymied the building up of the roster for 3 years afterwards.....
the whole notion that BoB is less than mediocore when his record after 5-6 years is no only better than Kubiak's at this point, but he's actually achieved more to this point as well.
and of course, this little gem that CND categorically torpedoed
76Texan said:
It was OB who said Keenum is nothing more than a third stringer;.
Sure there's more but you're just all over the place pulling out every stop & excuse trying to make Kubiak look better than he was here. Your argument is weak as hell & truthfully you ought to be ashamed of yourself.
I'm really starting to think that what Steelb & Texecutioner have been saying is right...This is an aggie butt-hurt thing....No way in hell anyone can OBJECTIVELY look at the tenures of either of these guys here and say 1 has been/was DEFINITIVELY BETTER than the other.
If you do what you're suggesting you can survive a yr without high draft picks. The key to adding to the roster , say in 2021 is to play the FA market well (since the cap is going to go up) and add a couple of starters. Then find 1 starter in the draft and use the rest of the draft for depth/ST's. You do know that approximately 30 percent of the roster turns over every year?
How they are going to their 3 starters every year ( I disagree with this philosophy) is by signing guys like Mathieu and Roby to 1 yr contracts. The reason I did agree with this philosophy is because it hurts continuity.
Slaton:
Steve Slaton Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Draft, College | Pro-Football-Reference.com
Checkout the latest stats for Steve Slaton. Get info about his position, age, height, weight, college, draft, and more on Pro-football-reference.com.
www.pro-football-reference.com
I have a baseline for RB:
- one fumble per 100 touches, great.
- one fumble per 75 touches; OK, but you need to make a few plays.
- one fumble per 50 touches ==>> bench, unless you make a ton of big plays to make up for it.
If you don't even make play: CUT
Slaton's rookie year: 318 touches, 5.2 yards per touch, total 1,659 yards from scrimmage, 10 TDs, 3 fumbles (that's 1 fumble every 106 touches) ==>> Excellent.
Slaton's second year: 175 touches, 4.9 yards per touch, total 854 yards from scrimmage, 7 TDs, 7 Fumbles (terrible).
Look at the game log here:
Steve Slaton 2009 Game Log | Pro-Football-Reference.com
Get Steve Slaton 2009 game log for regular season and playoff games on Pro-football-reference.com.
www.pro-football-reference.com
He rode the bench from then on.
The guys that replaced him:
- Ryan Moats, 114 touches, 4.4 yards per touch, 5 TDs, 3 fumbles (one every 38 touches; also terrible).
- Chris Brown, 95 touches, 3.6 yards per touch, 1 fumble (safe but not any good.)
.......
So you see, Slaton did ride the bench; and he was relegated to punt return duty the next year.
Where's that 2 seasons afterward that you're talking about.
P.S. - And like I told Steelb, I still have all the games somewhere in the house; at least a couple of his fumbles were of the unfortunate kind. He protected the ball correctly.
As a comparison, last year for Carlos Hyde:
255 touches, 4.4 yards per touch, 6 TDs, 4 fumbles (one every 64 touches) - poor to bad.
And on one of the play he almost made, after running for 60 yards (due to a big hole - not really making play to begin with), he fumbled the ball just before he reaches the end zone simply because he didn't switch the ball to the outside, away from the defender. So all 60 yards went for naught.
And here, he didn't have the ball in and tight.
www.chiefs.com
That gave the ball to the Chiefs at the Texans 18.
It was fortunate that the D held the Chiefs to a FG there.
255 touches, 4.4 yards per touch, 6 TDs, 4 fumbles (one every 64 touches) - poor to bad.
And on one of the play he almost made, after running for 60 yards (due to a big hole - not really making play to begin with), he fumbled the ball just before he reaches the end zone simply because he didn't switch the ball to the outside, away from the defender. So all 60 yards went for naught.
And here, he didn't have the ball in and tight.
Frank Clark Snags Carlos Hyde's Fumble on the Texans' First Drive
Carlos Hyde fumbles, Frank Clark recovers vs. Kansas City Chiefs, 10/13/2019
www.chiefs.com
It was fortunate that the D held the Chiefs to a FG there.