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O'Brien vs. Kubiak
- Thread starter 76Texan
- Start date
You made the point of pointing out OB's bad record in those situations and have stipulated how much a better HC Kubiak was so you need to provide that info to inform us all (isn't that what this thread is about?)
theCATALYST
Football Messiah
theCATALYST
Football Messiah
My mistake
It is.
But things have to be in the same line.
OB traded away future draft picks in year six; something Kubiak did not have the opportunity to do.
You want OB to have another handicap?
I hope this offseason is as productive as last offseason and I've got a feeling it will be.
Getting your panties in a wad because a couple of 1st rd picks got traded for a 10 yr LT answer. LMAO
I just look at the overall failure of Smithiak and RS. This makes me very thankful for the change of direction of this franchise. After 15 yrs it's about time. I wish they had starting acquiring talent like this in 2008. I've been on record with this since 2008. I said the philosophy you're espusing wouldn't work back then and 12 yrs later I stand by those statements I made back in the 2008 offseason.
If by productive you mean overpaying for a bunch of average guys and wasting picks, that's unlikely to happen again because we're running out of capspace and picks
False, plenty of cap space and draft picks in every rd but the 1st.
Not this crap again
You're a broken record that cant be reasoned with.
Both years 6 ended with a 10-6 record.
Kubiak did it without sacrificing 2 future firsts and a second.
Mercilus and Hopkins.
Plus Swearinger.
Without Mercilus and Hopkins, OB would be nothing.
Even luckier, Kubiak didn't do it even earlier; the Texans would never have had J J Watt.
.....
And how did it work out for OB in the play-offs with the big trades?
A whooping was what.
.....
And keep this in mind.
Losing these rookie contract means that 5-6 years down the road, the team will have to pay big money for FAs.
But it won't even happen.
In about 3-4 years, this team would be gutted already.
You just wait and see.
Somebody's going to have to pay the interest.
Down to $49 million for 2020 without extending Watson or Cunningham, plus free agent starters at multiple positions.
Missing a first and a third for this year's draft, so good luck filling all those holes. And next year's draft capital is even lower.
@PFF_George:
2020 Draft Capital
1. Dolphins
2, Jags
3. Raiders
4. Colts
.
.
29. Bears
30. Rams
31. Steelers
32. Texans
They will be going without 1st and 2nd rd picks in 2021. At that point the team will be affected like they were in 2018. I can certainly live with that.
FuzzyLogic
Mathematically Possible
13 pages about who was the best mediocre coach!
Uncle Rico
Ur apology should be as loud as Ur disrespect was
I think its 13 pages of how one coach has been given every single opportunity and excuse in the book to extend a mediocre career, and the other was run out of town in embarrassing fashion after suffering a stroke on the sideline for this team, and after building the nucleus that the current dictator is taking credit for.
If Kubiak would have been afforded the same BS reasoning for why he couldnt get it done he would still be here and we might have already won a ring. Look what he did after he left .. turned in the best offensive season in franchise history for the RAvens (up to that point pre Roman/LJ obviously) and then won the whole damn thing with a decrepit Peyton Manning and convincing the world that Brock Osweiler would be a franchise QB. LOL
That OBrien Excuse Train keeps on chuggin'!!
Epic Thread. 5 stars. Should be stickied for eternity.
Great post
Except if you take a look at 1. Who was calling the shots while they were both here and what was the common denominator of both regimes?
2. How long was/has each HC been here? 3. What are their records?
The question I have for you is, how badly have they been hurt by the 2018 draft?
Texecutioner
Hall of Fame
Kubiak came in here and got to hand pick his GM and had all types of control that most HC's would dream of, and he still only produced two actual winning seasons and then flopped into a 2-14 season that got him canned like the below average HC he was. His nucleus of players were ran out of here within two years for the most part. That's a whopper
Lol! Wade Phillips dragged his team there and he was ran out of there the very next season by Elway.
O'Brien is trash on his own. He doesn't need a loudmouth to lie about an ex HC's career to make him look bad. He already does. You just make yourself look bad by creating outlandish descriptions hoping to get yourself noticed no matter how cringe the content is you put forth.
Don't forget he built a top ten offense in Minnesota in one year.
We're six years into obrien and he hasn't built a top 15 offense yet even while he mortgaged the future
Texecutioner
Hall of Fame
Lol! What is it with Kubiak disciples and these endless comparisons to O'Brien for him to other teams? That actually makes O'Brien seem stronger and you guys can't even see that you're doing that.
You lose any argument from the jump when your facts are so weak that you have to pull stats from other teams to compare to his tenure as HC of the Texans. The comparison was them two as HC here, but you Kubiak disciples have to reach onto other franchises to try to make a **** sandwich look like it wasn't a **** sandwich when it was here. Its the equivalent of going "off topic" in a debate when you know that your facts can't justify your position. Its like being in a political debate and comparing 4 presidential terms to one guy's presidential term to see who accomplished more. Obviously the guy who had one presidential term did a hell of a lot better if you had to combine 3 or 4 other presidential terms to his. The fact that you and others aren't "ashamed" of having to use such poor logic and desperation to make a case is mind boggling actually.
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How were they hurt?
Davenport starting 15 games; Lamm 13, Kelemete 14.
Not to mention that Martin was doing rather poorly (if you like PFF).
Texans' Nick Martin was the worst center in the AFC South
Pro Football Focus graded Houston Texans center Nick Martin pretty harshly compared to the other centers in the AFC South.
texanswire.usatoday.com
And Fulton was meh-to-bad, definitely not worth the money.
Zach Fulton could be key to Texans' offensive line
Texans general manager Brian Gaine identified and recruited Zach Fulton as the...
Football Outsiders had the Texans’ offensive line ranked 32nd in adjusted sack rate, 32nd in pressure rate, and 27th in adjusted line yards.
The Texans also had to sign Henderson, who broke his ankle.
The compounding problem is that because the line was so bad, they felt the need to resign him in Jan 2019 for $4.5M
So The Houston Texans Re-Signed Seantrel Henderson...
A quick thought on the Texans’ recent offseason decision.
www.battleredblog.com
And don't forget that they had had to pay for Jeff Allen and Breno G, too.
All because they couldn't develop S'Filo and Davenport.
And without any pick in the first two rounds, they had to settle for Rankin in the third.
How were they hurt?
Davenport starting 15 games; Lamm 13, Kelemete 14.
Not to mention that Martin was doing rather poorly (if you like PFF).
Texans' Nick Martin was the worst center in the AFC South
Pro Football Focus graded Houston Texans center Nick Martin pretty harshly compared to the other centers in the AFC South.
And Fulton was meh-to-bad, definitely not worth the money.
Zach Fulton could be key to Texans' offensive line
Texans general manager Brian Gaine identified and recruited Zach Fulton as the...www.houstonchronicle.com
Football Outsiders had the Texans’ offensive line ranked 32nd in adjusted sack rate, 32nd in pressure rate, and 27th in adjusted line yards.
The Texans also had to sign Henderson, who broke his ankle.
The compounding problem is that because the line was so bad, they felt the need to resign him in Jan 2019 for $4.5M
So The Houston Texans Re-Signed Seantrel Henderson...
A quick thought on the Texans’ recent offseason decision.
And don't forget that they had had to pay for Jeff Allen and Breno G, too.
All because they couldn't develop S'Filo and Davenport.
And without any pick in the first two rounds, they had to settle for Rankin in the third.
And they still made the playoffs.
In other words not badly at all.
There was nothing there to develop with XSF/Davenport. You can try to develop crap but it will always smell like crap. I notice how you conveniently left out how GAINE added Reid and made great strides in fixing the ST's. That was a solid draft. Finding a 10 yr starter at the long standing problematic S position and fixing the ST's, plus finding usable guys like Akins is a very solid draft regardless of how you want to frame things.
I would be happy with a draft that successful every yr, especially when you add in the 2018 draft was a weak draft season. I guess you know the 2018 draft was a weak OL draft and they had to do with Davenport and the cheap FA OL direction in FA.
If you only compare them to Texans tenure, it's the same. Kubiak built multiple top 10 and top 15 offenses here, OBrien has never.
Additionally Kubiak built the only true contender (sidelined by the Shaub injury) and it was loaded with talent for the future which OBrien is still benefiting from (Watt, Hopkins)
Before we get into it, look at the draft in 2014 and 2015.
How many of those guys are still with the Texans?
Forget about bringing up Rick Smith; that's not the point in what I'm going to say.
I already told you not to bring up Rick Smith; it's not the point.
The point is that none of those guys are with the team anymore.
You know to build a team, you need different guys, from high price FA to veterans playing for minimum, UDFA, etc.
But the draft is always an important part of it.
So the fewer draft picks you have, the lesser the chance of getting a good-great starter.
Wouldn't you agree?
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RS was the point of your post since he was in charge at that point.
Yes the draft is very important. They aren't missing any draft picks next yr (Tunsil was this yrs 1st rd pick and he's better than any LT they could've drafted.) In 2021 I think Tunsil is also worth a 1st. Two 1sts for a 25 yr old LT that made the pro bowl isn't an outrageous cost.
I'll put it this way, if Tunsil was coming out of Ole Miss in this draft and BOB wanted to trade for Tunsil, he would have to give up the 26th pick and a 2021 pick to get Tunsil.
The guys drafted in 2018 that contributed were: Reid,
J Thomas (20 catches), Coutee (28 catches)
Rankin was bad.
Aikins (17 catches) - comp pick for Bouye (ie,; holdover from Kubiak)
So really; it was just Reid - only one legitimate starter.
The others were just bit players.
You need at least 3 guys from a draft to become solid starter; otherwise, it's a fail.
At any rate, they got to the play-offs with guys brought in by Rich Smith anyway, so I don't see why the whining?
The guys drafted in 2018 that contributed were: Reid,
J Thomas (20 catches), Coutee (28 catches)
Rankin was bad.
Aikins (17 catches) - comp pick for Bouye (ie,; holdover from Kubiak)
So really; it was just Reid - only one legitimate starter.
The others were just bit players.
You need at least 3 guys from a draft to become solid starter; otherwise, it's a fail.
At any rate, they got to the play-offs with guys brought in by Rich Smith anyway, so I don't see why the whining?
I can see I value guys like Akins more than you do, as well as ST's.
RS was the guy that left them without the picks and no way to protect DW4.
BTW, obviously the 2018 draft didn't kill the franchise and neither will the 2021 draft.
Just wait and see, shall we.
Uncle Rico
Ur apology should be as loud as Ur disrespect was
You don't consider Hyde to be a starter? That was the Rankin pick and an upgrade in talent level at a position of need.
Rankin was going to be cut anyway. They got a starter for him
Hyde is a 2-down back and a one-yr rental.
If the Texans want him and his 4 fumbles back, they will have to pay more as it will be his 7th year.
Texecutioner
Hall of Fame
Again, another "off topic" rant to justify a lie that you just wrote.
They aren't offensive coordinators. They were HC's here, so your argument isn't even a real one. You're having to try and make it about that by itself, because the real argument doesn't fit well.
O'Brien's HC record with the Texans was better and that stands by itself.
They were only a contender in your mind obviously. Many of us didn't believe in that team and never believed in Schaub all together for the most part. That team crumbled and even lost to a Dan Orvlosky Indy team at the end of the year where they went crawling into the playoffs looking like burnt ashes already. No amounts of new descriptions you try to fib about is going to change "the facts" of that season.
This is literally the dumbest argument a person could make which is also a lie. That would also mean that Kubiak's entire success was due to Dom Capers because of how he enjoyed Andre Johnson all of those years, and you clearly ignoring the fact that Watt has gotten injured or that there has been a complete rebuild since then.
For a guy they were going to cut.
Not much more, Hyde isn't going to get much more than the vet minimum.
I think it was a good trade and don't really care if they bring him back or not. He was a great stop gap though. Better than anybody on this MB could've expected
theCATALYST
Football Messiah
I would take Hyde of Miller all day every day, but yes, lets find a new young back on the cheap.
Texansballer74
The Marine
Are you not repeating yourself everyday and on every thread?
I mean where is your new material?
Texansballer74
The Marine
Now this is too funny. You wasn't saying this under the Kubiak and RS era. They still made the playoffs.
Texansballer74
The Marine
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
This thread is a joke & i can't believe its still going on... "No, i said AFTER year 5.."
. Lol, If you've got to limit the scope that much to try & make your case, it probably means your case wasn't that good to begin with. I also wonder if you felt the same way about the Texans back in 2007 under Kubiak when they gave up what they did for Schaub.
At least with Tunsil, you knew what you were getting..a proven, franchise stabilizing LT to protect the blindside of your franchise qb......which he proved with a pro bowl season right out of the gate. That's not even counting what Stills brought to the table in the trade. At the time of the Schaub acquisition, Kubiak was:
still giving bums like Chris Brown and Ryan Moats starters snaps at rb.......
we had 0 depth behind AJ at WR
& we had bums like Fred Bennett, CC Brown and Petey &^*$# Faggins getting significant playing time in our secondary lol.
Yet, even with a roster full of holes EVERYWHERE, he still felt it was worth it to throw away valuable draft capital (swap of 1sts, & 2 2nd rounders i believe) on an unproven, noodle-armed slug in Matt Schaub.
that perpetual 8-8, 9-7 level of mediocrity started under Kubiak right there & the damn trade didn't even start to look like anything until 4 years in it........mostly b/c during that time, Schaub couldn't stay healthy, but also too b/c the roster was largely still trash. So 5 years into Kubiak's tenure here, AJ was still the only real threat at WR.......He was still trying to find depth behind the now emerging Arian Foster & we still had bums like Eugene Wilson starting in the secondary. Think those 2 2nd rounders in 2007 & 2008 could've changed that a little bit? 1st rounders get all the hype for immediate impact players, but the truth is teams look for & often find those guys in the 2nd round as well. Idiots like John Lopez pump out a narrative that its only in the 1st & dudes like you gobble it all up.
The Texans will definitely be hurt in 2021 with no 1st or 2nd, but the truth is between the cap space we have and the current roster & the fact that we have our 2nd this year we are set up to be able to withstand 1 year of no 1st or 2nd rounder.
Texansballer74
The Marine
If you consider this thread a joke, why respond to it. Hey just don't open it up.
Pardon me for not getting into it yet.This thread is a joke & i can't believe its still going on... "No, i said AFTER year 5.."
I also wonder if you felt the same way about the Texans back in 2007 under Kubiak when they gave up what they did for Schaub.
At least with Tunsil, you knew what you were getting..a proven, franchise stabilizing LT to protect the blindside of your franchise qb......which he proved with a pro bowl season right out of the gate. That's not even counting what Stills brought to the table in the trade. At the time of the Schaub acquisition, Kubiak was:
still giving bums like Chris Brown and Ryan Moats starters snaps at rb.......
we had 0 depth behind AJ at WR
& we had bums like Fred Bennett, CC Brown and Petey &^*$# Faggins getting significant playing time in our secondary lol.
Yet, even with a roster full of holes EVERYWHERE, he still felt it was worth it to throw away valuable draft capital (swap of 1sts, & 2 2nd rounders i believe) on an unproven, noodle-armed slug in Matt Schaub.
that perpetual 8-8, 9-7 level of mediocrity started under Kubiak right there & the damn trade didn't even start to look like anything until 4 years in it........mostly b/c during that time, Schaub couldn't stay healthy, but also too b/c the roster was largely still trash. So 5 years into Kubiak's tenure here, AJ was still the only real threat at WR.......He was still trying to find depth behind the now emerging Arian Foster & we still had bums like Eugene Wilson starting in the secondary. Think those 2 2nd rounders in 2007 & 2008 could've changed that a little bit? 1st rounders get all the hype for immediate impact players, but the truth is teams look for & often find those guys in the 2nd round as well. Idiots like John Lopez pump out a narrative that its only in the 1st & dudes like you gobble it all up.
The Texans will definitely be hurt in 2021 with no 1st or 2nd, but the truth is between the cap space we have and the current roster & the fact that we have our 2nd this year we are set up to be able to withstand 1 year of no 1st or 2nd rounder.
I'm still in year one.
Going round and round isn't going to prove anything.
My first aim is to prove that O'Brien inherited a much much better situation, comparable to a 28 handicap in golf.
That, by itself, is enough; there's not even a need to go any further.
I don't believe anyone is arguing that point
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
Pardon me for not getting into it yet.
I'm still in year one.
Going round and round isn't going to prove anything.
My first aim is to prove that O'Brien inherited a much much better situation, comparable to a 28 handicap in golf.
That, by itself, is enough; there's not even a need to go any further.
It matters not what who or what each guy inherited. The overriding point you seem to not be grasping is that If Kubiak was half the coach you think he was:
It shouldn't have taken him 4 years to build a team that could get a "winning" record of..................... 9-7.
It shouldn't have taken him 6 years to build a talented enough roster to make the playoffs................at 10-6.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
Point taken...