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Tell Me Why Patrick Mahomes is not the Solution!

jradMIT said:
Check out Mahomes put HWSNBN in his place. Amazing arm strength.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-netwo...trick-Mahomes-II-throw-faster-than-David-Carr
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Good stuff.

I like to look at the stats put out about how fast these guys threw at the combine as much as anyone else. However, I don't believe it means what most people think it means.

It's an unofficial stat. If it were an official part of the testing, there would be rules. One big step. No hopping, plant foot has to stay on the ground... something. Like in the broadjump or the 40 yard dash where they'll call a guy back if he's moving forward before he drops his hand.

With that in mind, chances are there are big variances just in how the speed is recorded. Do they record each one 10 yards from a certain line? 10 yards after it leaves the hand? 5 yards before the receiver catches it? Is it the same for every player?

& which throws are they recording? I'm sure if the QBs knew which ones they were going to be recording, the ball they throw may not be as catchable as the last one Mahommes threw over Heath Evans' head.
 
thunderkyss said:
Good stuff.

I like to look at the stats put out about how fast these guys threw at the combine as much as anyone else. However, I don't believe it means what most people think it means.

It's an unofficial stat. If it were an official part of the testing, there would be rules. One big step. No hopping, plant foot has to stay on the ground... something. Like in the broadjump or the 40 yard dash where they'll call a guy back if he's moving forward before he drops his hand.

With that in mind, chances are there are big variances just in how the speed is recorded. Do they record each one 10 yards from a certain line? 10 yards after it leaves the hand? 5 yards before the receiver catches it? Is it the same for every player?

& which throws are they recording? I'm sure if the QBs knew which ones they were going to be recording, the ball they throw may not be as catchable as the last one Mahommes threw over Heath Evans' head.
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I agree its very hard to quantify exactly "arm strength". However, anecdotally the fact Mahomes can throw the ball such distances as well as throw with horrible mechanics accurately demonstrates very rare arm strength.
 
jradMIT said:
I agree its very hard to quantify exactly "arm strength". However, anecdotally the fact Mahomes can throw the ball such distances as well as throw with horrible mechanics accurately demonstrates very rare arm strength.
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Agree, 100%

Watching how these guys throw, eyeballing the speed & trajectory of the ball... I don't care what that "combine" number is. If a guy can zing the ball 25~30 yards with zip off his back foot, that's a pretty strong arm.

If you see a guy putting his whole body into a throw & he's got to throw a rainbow to get 30~40 yards down field... his arm ain't all that.
 
ObsiWan said:
hmmm... do I really want a guy who throws the ball over the head of a guy just 20 yds from him...? ...on two of four throws?
:D
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to be fair he wasn't trying to pass, he was just trying to sling it as faster as he could :)

what I find impressive is that an older guy like Carr can still throw as fast as a college guy who's entering the draft now
 
Bulls on Parade said:
David Carr is old now a days (father time caught up with him) and he had shoulder surgery not too long ago. And he was still holding his own and putting some good zip on that ball wearing a suit. Not bad at all. You can't expect him to out-gun a young stud but it wasn't like he put up an embarrassing mph.
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I agree but it was good to see him being put in the right place, also it must have bee very hard to dig through the film and find the two good plays of his career.
 
Sigma said:
to be fair he wasn't trying to pass, he was just trying to sling it as faster as he could :)

what I find impressive is that an older guy like Carr can still throw as fast as a college guy who's entering the draft now
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He wasn't a #1 for no reason, physically he was as gifted as anyone, strong arm and a good athlete. Just between the ears and the shoulders he was severely lacking.
 
They should have sent someone out to rush Carr, so he could hold the ball till the next commercial...then get sacked. Would have added a lot to the program. :hurrah::throwball:
 
DocBar said:
Alarming accuracy issues on some of those throws. I get that they were trying to show arm strength and zip on the ball, but what good is it if the receiver can't catch the ball?
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I think he just put a little to much effort into trying to beat carr and lost control of his throws.
 
thunderkyss said:
Is it just me, or did you get the feeling he wasn't picking up what Gruden was putting down as quickly as most of the other guys who've been on this show?
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I didn't have that take at all. He missed a protection, but other an that?
 
Nighthawk99 said:
I think he just put a little to much effort into trying to beat carr and lost control of his throws.
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What will he do when it counts and the adrenaline is amped up by orders of magnitude? That's my point. I don't dislike Mahomes, I just don't think he's ready to come in and start. I actually liked what I saw/heard from the Gruden Camp vid.
 
DocBar said:
What will he do when it counts and the adrenaline is amped up by orders of magnitude? That's my point. I don't dislike Mahomes, I just don't think he's ready to come in and start. I actually liked what I saw/heard from the Gruden Camp vid.
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I definitely agree that he is not ready to come in and start; I think we can all agree he needs a year or two, however he has shown great touch on his passes during games. I dont think trying to throw the ball too hard is really much of a problem for mahomes.
 
Nighthawk99 said:
I definitely agree that he is not ready to come in and start; I think we can all agree he needs a year or two, however he has shown great touch on his passes during games. I dont think trying to throw the ball too hard is really much of a problem for mahomes.
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My only issue with Mahomes is that I dislike gunslinger's at QB. I would've cut Bret Favre. I feel that strongly about it. I like the fact that he's much closer to Wilson than Vick, Kap or any other athletic QB who takes off running at the slightest hint of pressure. I won't be butt hurt, in the least, if they draft him at 1.25. I would only be butt hurt if he's anointed the day 1 starter.
 
DocBar said:
My only issue with Mahomes is that I dislike gunslinger's at QB. I would've cut Bret Favre. I feel that strongly about it.
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For the first 10 years or so I kept telling my brother (Favre/Packer fanboi) that it was just luck. That Favre was lucky to have a job. I'd have benched his butt, if not cut him, too. Then I just had to admit... guy's good.
 
thunderkyss said:
For the first 10 years or so I kept telling my brother (Favre/Packer fanboi) that it was just luck. That Favre was lucky to have a job. I'd have benched his butt, if not cut him, too. Then I just had to admit... guy's good.
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He cost his team as much as he helped them. It's a wash with me. Won them a SB, cost them a shot at the SB. Favre is the living personification of trying to be the hero when a hero isn't the right answer.
 
DocBar said:
My only issue with Mahomes is that I dislike gunslinger's at QB. I would've cut Bret Favre. I feel that strongly about it. I like the fact that he's much closer to Wilson than Vick, Kap or any other athletic QB who takes off running at the slightest hint of pressure. I won't be butt hurt, in the least, if they draft him at 1.25. I would only be butt hurt if he's anointed the day 1 starter.
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Mahomes is a guy that can drive coaches nut; you know guys that have or want to have control.

But besides that, there's a system that you have to run so that everyone can be on the same page.

I like Mahomes because he doesn't try to run all the time.
Similar to Wilson, he does try to get the ball to the playmaker (unlike Peterman).

He needs to take care of the ball though.
And work on the multiple looks from the few decent Ds he had seen in college.

IMO, he has the best potential in this class , but the NFL is a different animal.
 
DocBar said:
My only issue with Mahomes is that I dislike gunslinger's at QB. I would've cut Bret Favre. I feel that strongly about it. I like the fact that he's much closer to Wilson than Vick, Kap or any other athletic QB who takes off running at the slightest hint of pressure. I won't be butt hurt, in the least, if they draft him at 1.25. I would only be butt hurt if he's anointed the day 1 starter.
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thunderkyss said:
For the first 10 years or so I kept telling my brother (Favre/Packer fanboi) that it was just luck. That Favre was lucky to have a job. I'd have benched his butt, if not cut him, too. Then I just had to admit... guy's good.
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DocBar said:
He cost his team as much as he helped them. It's a wash with me. Won them a SB, cost them a shot at the SB. Favre is the living personification of trying to be the hero when a hero isn't the right answer.
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WOW!

Favre led the Packers to the playoffs 11 times in 16 seasons, went to 5 conference championships, including one with the Vikes, and 2 Super Bowls. People would kill for a run like that in Houston.
 
76Texan said:
Mahomes is a guy that can drive coaches nut; you know guys that have or want to have control.

But besides that, there's a system that you have to run so that everyone can be on the same page.

I like Mahomes because he doesn't try to run all the time.
Similar to Wilson, he does try to get the ball to the playmaker (unlike Peterman).

He needs to take care of the ball though.
And work on the multiple looks from the few decent Ds he had seen in college.

IMO, he has the best potential in this class , but the NFL is a different animal.
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"...there's a system that you have to run so that everyone can be on the same page."

And is that system O"Brian's? I don't think so. But the quesrion is, would OB adapt to design a system around a QB like Mahomes?
 
76Texan said:
Mahomes is a guy that can drive coaches nut; you know guys that have or want to have control.

But besides that, there's a system that you have to run so that everyone can be on the same page.

I like Mahomes because he doesn't try to run all the time.
Similar to Wilson, he does try to get the ball to the playmaker (unlike Peterman).

He needs to take care of the ball though.
And work on the multiple looks from the few decent Ds he had seen in college.

IMO, he has the best potential in this class , but the NFL is a different animal.
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don't worry I expect OBrien to simplify his complicated system as he has with other QBs. :tiphat:
 
thunderkyss said:
Is it just me, or did you get the feeling he wasn't picking up what Gruden was putting down as quickly as most of the other guys who've been on this show?
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I think he was fine unlike Mitch Turbisky who didn't know what a hard count was on Gruden's camp.

 
I'd take the next Brett Favre with the Texans for the next 15 years in a heartbeat. Easiest decision since that time I was asked to choose between Janet Reno or Halle Berry in a beauty contest.
 
Texans have failed in Franchise QB territory, largely attributable to timing and bad luck. More pressure on O'Brian, it's his job on the line if he can't fill this need. Capers tried and failed, fired. Kubiak tried and failed, fired. Now it's O'Brian on the hot seat.

Good chance his job rests on Tom Savage shoulders? Unless they can hit on a commodity like Dak Prescott in the draft. Overlooked, mid round selection that maybe forced into duty prematurely because of injury (highly likely) to Savage.

So it doesn't have to be a first round guy to get the job done, however Rick may have to forgo his best player mantra & draft most important player. For Bill's sake sooner rather than later.
 
xtruroyaltyx said:
Mahomes has a cannon....

But the whole time watching that I just kept think about what a waste Mittens was. The physical traits and ability were about all you could ask for without getting into super freak Vick territory.
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The Texans surely did Carr no favors. I agree that. if he'd been mentored for by a quality vet, for at least 10 games, he could've been what we've seen out of Derek. Derek had the benefit of hindsight with David, so he knew exactly how to come in and prepare like a pro.
 
beerlover said:
Texans have failed in Franchise QB territory, largely attributable to timing and bad luck. More pressure on O'Brian, it's his job on the line if he can't fill this need. Capers tried and failed, fired. Kubiak tried and failed, fired. Now it's O'Brian on the hot seat.

Good chance his job rests on Tom Savage shoulders? Unless they can hit on a commodity like Dak Prescott in the draft. Overlooked, mid round selection that maybe forced into duty prematurely because of injury (highly likely) to Savage.

So it doesn't have to be a first round guy to get the job done, however Rick may have to forgo his best player mantra & draft most important player. For Bill's sake sooner rather than later.
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With all of the rumored acrimony between Smith and OB, why would Smith draft for OB's sake? CnD is on record, and I happen to agree with him, that Savage's injury history isn't suggestive of Savage being injury prone. Unlucky as hell? Yeah. Injury prone? Not imho.

I've been re-watching Texans games today and two things really stood out to me. First is how embarrassed I am that I overlooked Os' gawd awful wind up when I was all in for him last Spring and the second is just how tough Savage is and willing to stand in and deliver a strike when he knows he's going to take a shot. Savage took a pounding against all three teams he faced. I'm wondering if the concussion he suffered on the QB sneak wasn't a secondary concussion to one he received against the Bengals. After watching these games. I'm more convinced than ever that the Texans need to go OL early and often. I won't be mad if half the draft is used on OL. It's that bad.

I'm also not convinced that, this year, OB is on the hot seat. He has a good reputation in the league and McNair is a patient owner.
 
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DocBar said:
The Texans surely did Carr no favors. I agree that. if he'd been mentored for by a quality vet, for at least 10 games, he could've been what we've seen out of Derek. Derek had the benefit of hindsight with David, so he knew exactly how to come in and prepare like a pro.
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Still wouldn't make David committed to being a great QB. We did him no favors, sure, but there'll always be that part that was always up to only him.
 
Mollywhopper said:
Still wouldn't make David committed to being a great QB. We did him no favors, sure, but there'll always be that part that was always up to only him.
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Carr could have been a good to very good QB...

if that had been his #1 priority. It wasn't
 
DocBar said:
The Texans surely did Carr no favors. I agree that. if he'd been mentored for by a quality vet, for at least 10 games, he could've been what we've seen out of Derek. Derek had the benefit of hindsight with David, so he knew exactly how to come in and prepare like a pro.
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It was a different league back then, so the numbers are going to be skewed. But I think David was a much better QB than Derek his first two years. I don't think lack of a mentor hurt him year one.

I think the "club med" where veterans come for there last big payday mentality had set in on Kirby & he wasn't in a position to turn that around. I think he was going through the motions halfway through his third year, & so was every one else.
 
DocBar said:
With all of the rumored acrimony between Smith and OB, why would Smith draft for OB's sake? CnD is on record, and I happen to agree with him, that Savage's injury history isn't suggestive of Savage being injury prone. Unlucky as hell? Yeah. Injury prone? Not imho.

I've been re-watching Texans games today and two things really stood out to me. First is how embarrassed I am that I overlooked Os' gawd awful wind up when I was all in for him last Spring and the second is just how tough Savage is and willing to stand in and deliver a strike when he knows he's going to take a shot. Savage took a pounding against all three teams he faced. I'm wondering if the concussion he suffered on the QB sneak wasn't a secondary concussion to one he received against the Bengals. After watching these games. I'm more convinced than ever that the Texans need to go OL early and often. I won't be mad if half the draft is used on OL. It's that bad.

I'm also not convinced that, this year, OB is on the hot seat. He has a good reputation in the league and McNair is a patient owner.
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Good write-up. Add Weeden into the mix and I'm optimistic going into this next season. It's not an easy schedule, but if the draft goes right with an emphasis on the OL, I like our chances.
 
thunderkyss said:
& since when has having an active existing thread ever stopped us from starting a new one?
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Well, there was the time when those of us with the moderator thingy by our name cared...I mean took lots of time combining those extra threads to makes sure that board was neat and well organized.
 
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thunderkyss said:
It was a different league back then, so the numbers are going to be skewed. But I think David was a much better QB than Derek his first two years. I don't think lack of a mentor hurt him year one.

I think the "club med" where veterans come for there last big payday mentality had set in on Kirby & he wasn't in a position to turn that around. I think he was going through the motions halfway through his third year, & so was every one else.
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wtf%20%282%29.gif
 
Mollywhopper said:
Still wouldn't make David committed to being a great QB. We did him no favors, sure, but there'll always be that part that was always up to only him.
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A quality vet could've made the difference in that area. It certainly didn't help that Carr was coddled by a fledgling team. There's always a part on the player that's only up to him.
thunderkyss said:
It was a different league back then, so the numbers are going to be skewed. But I think David was a much better QB than Derek his first two years. I don't think lack of a mentor hurt him year one.

I think the "club med" where veterans come for there last big payday mentality had set in on Kirby & he wasn't in a position to turn that around. I think he was going through the motions halfway through his third year, & so was every one else.
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You don't agree that having a good mentor to show Carr how an NFL QB should prepare and lead by example would've benefitted Carr and maybe the Texans as a whole?
 
DocBar said:
A quality vet could've made the difference in that area. It certainly didn't help that Carr was coddled by a fledgling team. There's always a part on the player that's only up to him.
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I don't believe Roger Staubach, Joe Montana, or the ghost of Johnny U would've changed his life's values. Football greatness just wasn't his end all be all priority.
 
Mollywhopper said:
wtf%20%282%29.gif
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DocBar said:
You don't agree that having a good mentor to show Carr how an NFL QB should prepare and lead by example would've benefitted Carr and maybe the Texans as a whole?
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I guess we don't agree on the progress David Carr made from year one to year three. That's fine. Differences of opinion is what fuels discussion. But I remember being very happy with David Carr year one, year two, & at least half of year three. Would a vet presence been helpful? I don't see how. As far as I can tell, he was doing the things he needed to do to get better, to learn the game.

After year three, I feel like he stopped giving a sht & stopped doing the things that were going to make him better. Maybe he decided to tell people that it was because he valued being a family man more than being an NFL QB & that may have been the case from that point forward. But I'm pretty sure he's not going to say, "The place was a clusterfk. From top to bottom, that organization had no idea how to win. There's only so much one man can do & I decided it wasn't worth my time." Whether it was true or not... he's not going to say it.

But that's what most of us thought about this organization at that time. I wouldn't be surprised if most of the team felt that way.
 
thunderkyss said:
I guess we don't agree on the progress David Carr made from year one to year three. That's fine. Differences of opinion is what fuels discussion. But I remember being very happy with David Carr year one, year two, & at least half of year three. Would a vet presence been helpful? I don't see how. As far as I can tell, he was doing the things he needed to do to get better, to learn the game.

After year three, I feel like he stopped giving a sht & stopped doing the things that were going to make him better. Maybe he decided to tell people that it was because he valued being a family man more than being an NFL QB & that may have been the case from that point forward. But I'm pretty sure he's not going to say, "The place was a clusterfk. From top to bottom, that organization had no idea how to win. There's only so much one man can do & I decided it wasn't worth my time." Whether it was true or not... he's not going to say it.

But that's what most of us thought about this organization at that time. I wouldn't be surprised if most of the team felt that way.
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I'm not sure what aspect of playing quarterback any of that points to David having played better than Derek his first two years, but yes, differences do fuel discussion.
 
McNair drafted David Carr for the primary purpose of wanting Carr to be the face of Franchise. McNair made a lot demands on Carr's time parading him around Houston. Did that have an effect on Carr's mindset and on the field performances? I don't think we will ever know the answer to those questions.
 
thunderkyss said:
I guess we don't agree on the progress David Carr made from year one to year three. That's fine. Differences of opinion is what fuels discussion. But I remember being very happy with David Carr year one, year two, & at least half of year three. Would a vet presence been helpful? I don't see how. As far as I can tell, he was doing the things he needed to do to get better, to learn the game.

After year three, I feel like he stopped giving a sht & stopped doing the things that were going to make him better. Maybe he decided to tell people that it was because he valued being a family man more than being an NFL QB & that may have been the case from that point forward. But I'm pretty sure he's not going to say, "The place was a clusterfk. From top to bottom, that organization had no idea how to win. There's only so much one man can do & I decided it wasn't worth my time." Whether it was true or not... he's not going to say it.

But that's what most of us thought about this organization at that time. I wouldn't be surprised if most of the team felt that way.
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It was widely reported at the time that David was the last one in and first to leave the facilities and seemed more concerned with being the face of the franchise than being a great QB. I guess I agree with OB's line of thinking that it's very tough to start a rookie QB from day 1. I like to see them sit for at least 8 games, more if the team has OL issues or poor talent at the skill positions. That's just me. I think David never recovered from 76 sacks in 2002 and 208 sacks in his first 4 years. Guy probably has PTSD after all that abuse. lol
 
Mollywhopper said:
I don't believe Roger Staubach, Joe Montana, or the ghost of Johnny U would've changed his life's values. Football greatness just wasn't his end all be all priority.
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Chester Pitts said he thought Carr played because he was good at it and not because he loved it . I think David also had the burden of a clingy parent trying to get his 15 minutes off his boy . This must have been great for the locker room . I'm not sure Carr and Chris Palmer saw eye to eye . Carr had that chicken wing throwing motion and Palmer set up ladders in the throwing lanes to simulate DL . Mittens made a snide remark about that when he joined the Panthers .

I began to wonder about Carr in the second game of his career vs San Diego . He looked like Johnny Manziel did vs the Bengals . The Chargers kept blitzing because the Texans had no answer . It seemed David took the snap and fell down like he had no idea what was happening . I think he had the talent but not work ethic ( except in the gym ) to be a top tier QB .
 
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