MEGA SWATT
All Pro
I hope this will motivate the whole Texans organization. I'm so tired of watching everyone else celebrate their team's success.
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Baldinger: Bob McNair "content with mediocrity"
- Thread starter Wolf
- Start date
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Hervoyel
BUENO!
I agree, he's just being an ass about the whole thing. If the Texans were in the NFC South they'd have done just as well with Gary as the Saints had done with Sean. No doubt about it. It's the lousy division they play in that's prepared them so well to hand Indianapolis a 30-17 Super Bowl loss, not any kind of superior coaching or drafting.
We have a good team now and much of that is indeed because of Gary Kubiak. That they are miserable against their division opponents, in pressure situations and in important games is also very much because of Gary Kubiak. Works both ways.
Can't wait for next year though. We're on our way now! Playoffs or Bust or Not! Maybe! Yeah!
We have a good team now and much of that is indeed because of Gary Kubiak. That they are miserable against their division opponents, in pressure situations and in important games is also very much because of Gary Kubiak. Works both ways.
Can't wait for next year though. We're on our way now! Playoffs or Bust or Not! Maybe! Yeah!
HoustonFrog
Dallas Frog
Would rep you, blah, blah, blah
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Fans act like coaching smarts are only dependent on the ultimate outcome and that is stupid. Fact is coaching is like playing blackjack - you play the odds. Have the game tonight with the Saints losing buy 3 or less and Payton is the donkey for his 4th down decision. "He gave the game away, blah, blah, blah" His decision was neither smarter or dumber because of the ultimate outcome.
houstonspartan
All Pro
All I was saying is that he has done a good job since he was hired in New Orleans. And, if they'd lost tonight, he still would be seen as a good coach.
Sure, coaching is like gambling, but let's not forget that there are certain people better at gambling than others.
It's not just about ultimate outcome. I, personally, think that the coach of the San Diego Chargers - can't think of his name right now - is a good coach.
What do you think about the talent they added through the draft vs the players they've acquired through FA?
MannyFresh
El Capitan
Motivate them to get "nails" kicker like the Saints have....that dude was kicking like nobody's business tonight. That's how you kick field goals Krissy Brown!
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
And don't get me wrong. I think Payton has done a great job as well. And I agree he would have done a good job regardless of the outcome tonight.
I guess that is a point I have been trying to make around here. Perception is reality and yet variable. Texans win against the Jets in game 1 and lose against the Pats in game 16 to end with the same record and they are in the playoffs. The entire MB, radio discussion, etc. is different. Does that truly reflect in any way on Kubiak as a coach?
Texecutioner
Hall of Fame
Well, apparently there are people on the radio saying similar things, because you wrote an angry letter to them as well. The truth can be ugly sometimes, but denying it is worse in the end.
HoustonFrog
Dallas Frog
Actually yes it does because the Jets game was the first game of the season and they came out flat and ill prepared. So yes, it does make a difference on how he coached. Your first game sets a tone. If they win that game then they have 9 wins going into the Pats game and maybe it would not have mattered as much if they were in...the whole season sets up differently. I mean you can play mess with the schedule all you want. Fact is, they didn't get in and he gets some of the blame. Did Thunder steal your pass word?
silvrhand
All Pro
The Texans are one of the best at playing meaningless football.
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
The sarcasm could only have been missed by the "newbies"...........or those who have had one too many.
BigTimeTexanFan
Rookie
After the Saints recovered that on-side kick everyone I was watching the game with were all saying how great a call that was by the coach. My response was it's only a great call because it worked. Had it not worked and they lost, Payton would have been the goat.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Actually yes it does because the Jets game was the first game of the season and they came out flat and ill prepared. So yes, it does make a difference on how he coached. Your first game sets a tone. If they win that game then they have 9 wins going into the Pats game and maybe it would not have mattered as much if they were in...the whole season sets up differently. I mean you can play mess with the schedule all you want. Fact is, they didn't get in and he gets some of the blame. Did Thunder steal your pass word?
Yes Kubiak gets some of the blame, no doubt about it. But there is plenty of blame to go around and any one little piece different and we at least get to watch the Texans in an away playoff game. Heck if they get paired with the Bengals we probably get to see them in at least two playoff games. Did you notice how much of the footage being used to analyze how to attack the Colts was from the Texans?
Yup people judge the wisdom on the result and that is a perfect example because an onside kick literally rests on the bounce of the ball.
dalemurphy
Hall of Fame
King makes valid points. I just think the conclusions that he, Baldinger, and others make are wrong. But, we'll find out a lot more next season. Depending on who's correct about the coach and organization and depending on other variables like injuries, I predict the Texans win between 7 and 13 game. How's that for going out on a limb?
ChampionTexan
Hall of Fame
I heard Payton say they believed there was a 70-80% chance that they would recover the kick. Assuming he's right, what this means is that 7 or 8 times out of 10 it would have worked, 2 or 3 times out of 10, it would have been Colts ball in great field position, and 10 out of 10 times it would have been a great call.
I think this was the turning point in the game - particularly coming on the heels of the Saints FG that ended the first half (after a three and out by the Colts).
Unfortunately, it brought back memories of a the on-side kick the Jags did against the Texans to open up the second half of one of their 2008 games. I thought that was the turning point in that game also.
Second Honeymoon
Hall of Fame
The Saints proved last night that it doesnt take forever to turn things around. The Saints had the same if not less talent than the Texans did in 2006, and they turned it around and got to 2 NFC Conference Championships and ultimately a Super Bowl. We are throwing a party and rewarding 9-7 with extensions and 'votes of confidence'.
You know its a bad time when the Saints make your organization look like a joke. maybe the Saints thieving Houston's casual fans and bandwagonners will put the pressure on McNair to bring a winner to town. If the Saints can do it, so can we. We just need to stop nickel and diming our coaching staff and stop nickel and diming our roster.
But for now Baldy is right. McNair is content with mediocrity, maybe last night's outcome and the subsequent Saints hysteria here in Houston, will make McNair wake up and smell the coffee.
You know its a bad time when the Saints make your organization look like a joke. maybe the Saints thieving Houston's casual fans and bandwagonners will put the pressure on McNair to bring a winner to town. If the Saints can do it, so can we. We just need to stop nickel and diming our coaching staff and stop nickel and diming our roster.
But for now Baldy is right. McNair is content with mediocrity, maybe last night's outcome and the subsequent Saints hysteria here in Houston, will make McNair wake up and smell the coffee.
silvrhand
All Pro
Sure when everyone expects it, this was an unexpected risky but brilliant play call, it kept Peyton off the field yet again. They kept the pressure on Manning and eventually forced him to make a mistake, which they then won the game on. They didn't have much to lose, the colts just could not get any pressure on Brees once Freeney's ankle was done.
The saints won the coaching battle last night, it was very obvious.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
He can say they believed there was a 110% chance they recover the ball and it doesn't make it true. I liked the 4th down call which failed and don't like the onside kick call that succeeded.
Texans_Chick
Utopian Dreamer
On average, the statistics show that there is a 60% chance of recovering a surprise onside kick.
He was very fortunate that they recovered. Given the way that scrum went, it is quite possible The Peyton would have had the ball + a short field to get a touchdown.
All this being said, I wish this thread title would die and we would put this conversation elsewhere.
HOU-TEX
Ah, Football!
If the Colt player (#81 I think) wouldn't have lunged forward and hit the ball there would've been a penalty and The Peyton would've had the ball in Saints territory. The ball hadn't gone 10 yards when the Colt hit it. The ball appeared to be curving towards the sideline away from the 10 yard mark.
Just thought I'd throw out my .02
Texan_Bill
Hall of Fame
Second Honeymoon
Hall of Fame
agreed. payton got a little lucky last night.
dalemurphy
Hall of Fame
I totally agree. I didn't mine the onside but I love the 4th down call. I think teams should almost always go for it on 4th down and reasonably short if they are inside the 10. Unless it's late in the game and the score dictates a FG, it's almost always the right call, IMO. By the way, that's one area where Kubiak's game management is pretty strong.
Second Honeymoon
Hall of Fame
yeah, you have to go for it against the Colts. against the Ravens, Jets, or other defensive team you take the 3 points, but against your top offensive squads like the Colts you have to go for it.
The onsides kick was insane but it worked out. props to Payton.
Mailman
Pwned by Hakeem
Guess I gotta get busy spreading the rep wealth because this is a very good post.
Not only that..... If Kubiak would have called that same outside stretch 3 times in a row turning it over on downs..... you'd never hear the end of it.
Then to open the second half with an onside kick..... doesn't matter if it worked or not, Kubiak would be crucified for that.
Anyone want to talk about the lack of intensity the Colts had? I mean they only scored 7 points in the last three Qtrs of the game.
When are they going to learn you have to play 4 Qtrs of football to win in this league?
Talk about mediocre.
DexmanC
Hall of Fame
Anyone want to talk about the lack of intensity the Colts had? I mean they only scored 7 points in the last three Qtrs of the game.
When are they going to learn you have to play 4 Qtrs of football to win in this league?
Talk about mediocre.
Kind of hard to score points when you're sitting on your ass. The Saints
executed their gameplan, and once the scored dictated the Colts HAD to score,
that's when they were finally able to force Peyton to make a fatal mistake.
Peyton Manning had the ball only THREE PLAYS in the entire second quarter,
and then the Saints executed an onside kick to further keep Peyton sitting.
That's how you beat the Colts, but only the Saints were able to execute
that well-known gameplan this season. There was nothing "mediocre" about
that game.
The Saints just killed any excuse you guys could possibly use to save Kubiak's
ass yet again. I feel he's retarding the growth of this team, you don't. I
hope I'm wrong, but I doubt I am.
GP
Go Texans!
One of the things that I have to actually give major props to Kubiak for, is how he took more risks in 2009 than he ever had in any season prior to this one.
He went for it on 4th down a lot more than he ever has. And he was doing it long before our annual Rally 'Round The Coach final four or five games of the season.
I would not crucify Kubiak for attempting an onside kick against the Colts. You do everything you can do to get the ball back when you play the Colts. Look, chances are that Manning takes it from the 20, on a normal Saints kickoff to start the 2nd half, andh e eats up clock and STILL scores a TD.
But what Sean Payton did, is attempt to multiple things:
1. Prohibit the Colts and Manning from having the ball. The Saints essentially wasted the coin flip by going 3-and-out in their opening series. Now they are looking at giving Manning the ball to start the 2nd half. Ouch.
2. Play the percentages. I have a feeling the stats show that an onside kick is statistically more likely to succeed than Chris Brown trotting with the ball and lobbing it to a receiver near the goal line when the defense is already playing the goal line to begin with. I'm just sayin'.....
3. Swing momentum back to his team and ignite the offense a bit. This would have helped spark the whole offense, which needed a break. And it also rallies the Saints defense, because they see that the coach is doing whatever it takes to keep Brees on the field.
It was a great call whether it works or not. It's the Super Bowl, you're playing Peyton Manning, and you don't have much else to do BUT to try and throw that play at them. If Kubiak was doing that, in THAT same scenario as Sean Payton did, I would not be mad if it failed to give us the ball back. And I say that with all honesty.
The Chris Brown HB pass is a bad call because it was done at the absolutely worst time: We had the Jags defense on their heels, it was 1st down near the end zone for pete's sake, Chris Brown telegraphed that it was a HB pass as soon as he received the ball from Schaub, and he should have tossed it out of bounds. Fail, Fail, Fail, and Fail some more.
Even Kubiak didn;t try to defende the poor playcall in his Loser Monday presser. He owned up to that one very quickly once it was posed to him as a question.
The debate over the HB Pass Debacle should end. It really should. Sunshiners are using this instance the same way the birthers are debating Obama's citzenship papers. It's futile.
shweeewww.... at least that's one thing.
I think it was a gutsy call, I won't deny that. But I felt the same way I felt when I saw Chris Brown pull the ball back to throw... what's it called? Chutzpa... I like it.
To tell you the truth, after I saw the Saints recovered, I said, "GK would never have the gnads to call that play... maybe that's what GP & Dex are talking about."
But honestly, I could live without it.
Don't twist that into saying I applaud Kubiak for the half back pass. I wouldn't have done it either. But it's that same chutzpa Peyton showed last night... I think anyway. Prior to that series, and there have been series after that, where we didn't get it done on the goal line. If you want to play percentages.... it was time to pull something out of the ole posterior.
That's when you do it.
If it were telegraphed, they would have been covering the TE. He was wide open, they were playing the run.
I don't think we can take Kubiak at his word when he is at the podium. He's just protecting his players.... that's what he's always done.
Take McNair's words with Kubiak's actions.... he's been trying to get our leaders to take over the game all year long. That's what this team is missing.
I promise, I won't bring it up again until you do.
But I think we can milk this one till September.
Excellent piece you linked in your blog. I love that they showed the math, as opposed to some of the other stat sites.
So according to the Advanced NFL Stats, the Saints onside kick was a good risk. As long as they hadn't onside kicked much in previous games. And that doesn't take into account Peyton Manning and the Colts' drive success percentage.
Still, I thought it was crazy when it happened live. Maybe that's why it works, when it seems absolutely crazy. I know the Saints were a different team after that play.
Regarding the thread, these things always morph into something else. First it was Baldinger, then onsides kicks, later I might post some barbecue recipes. Maybe that means we're content with anarchy? It's the offseason, so everything's a bit looser.
Here are some stats I compiled myself of passes attempted by non-QBs (or wildcat QBs) during the '09 season.
12-28-224 yards 6 TDs 7 INTs 71.1 Passer Rating
A boom or bust play. Then I looked at only RB passes (non-wildcat):
3-12-55 3 TDs 3 INTs 46.1 Passer Rating
So you have a 1 in 4 chance at success. A 1 in 4 chance at total failure. And a 50/50 chance that you'll run another play. Incredibily risky. It's the type of play you want to run with a big lead, and then just to put on film for future opponents to prepare for. An atrocious play call. Which as GP pointed out, Kubiak admitted to. I'm fairly certain that "Stagger Gary" won't find its way back into future game plans.
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
Six plays, I believe.
But that's beside the point.
I think you have a very, very warped view of how easy it is to take a team to the Super Bowl. You seem to think that any really good coach can come in and take a team, any team, from scratch to the Super Bowl or at least, to the play offs, in 3-4 years.
If it were that easy, more teams would make it to the Super Bowl and no team would go for 4-5 years without going to the playoffs. When you consider that half the teams in the league haven't made it to the Super Bowl (since the merger) and and in the past 30 years, only 5 teams haven't had a playoff drought of over 4 years (Giants, Ravens, Broncos, Vikings, and Steelers) and 17 teams have had a drought of 7+ years in that same period... including the Texans. And the Texans were starting at a deficit.
Kubiak has improved this team each year. If the team takes a big step backwards next year, I'll join your side and ask for Kubiak to be gone. But I don't see anything, including the schedule, that makes me believe that this team is going to be worse next year.
Out of curiosity... do you know what our TD/redzone ratio was prior to that game?
Goatcheese
Texan
I'm so tired of all the excuses.
Stop making excuses!
Woulda, coulda, shoulda!
Blah, blah, blah!
Parrot, parrot, parrot!
Regurgitate, regurgitate, regurgitate!
/end pink soaper imitation
Does anybody remember Jim Haslett?
He was the coach that brought a winning attitude to that club. Brought them their first play-off victory by beating the St Louis Rams... the greatest show on turf... in 2000 I believe. They had won their division, the NFC West for the second time in team history. That play-off team was built off the failed efforts of Mike Ditka, who brought that team Ricky Williams, Cam Cleeland, Mark Fields, La'Roi Glover, Sammy Knight, Keith Mitchell, Alex Molden, Chris Naeole, Kieth Poole, Willie Roaf, Kyle Turley, & Fred Weary.
In 2000, they went 10-6. after Ditka went 3-13 the year before. They then finished 7-9 in 2001, 9-7 in 2002. Both times missing the play-offs. In 2003 & 2004, they finished 8-8. In 2005, the Saints finished 3-13 once again, never playing a home game in their home stadium thanks to Hurricane Katrina.
That 2005 roster included players like Jamal Brown(actually, I think the whole 2006 OL was Hasslette's except the center), Devery Henderson, Duece McAllister, Joe Horn, Will Smith, Darren Howard, I think both starting corners, and a safety (I can't remember their names).
I am not saying Payton was handed a Championship team. I think he's done an excellent job keeping that team fresh, with good young talent. He also seems to hit on his FA aquisitions. despite going 7-9, then 8-8 the two years after their first NFC Championship appearance.
So yeah, Neck, I'm with you. It's not like he started from scratch.
DexmanC
Hall of Fame
I'm just asking for playoffs. The Superbowl talk will begin once we reach
the PLAYOFF milestone. Most teams we call ourselves contending with
next year have made that mark within the last four years. All I'm saying,
is that if this cat can't get it done in FIVE, the organization needs to
quit dragging its feet.
I seen his episode. Hopefully, this regime can get this show out of
syndication.
sbalderrama
Noob
According to Peter King, the odds were probably even more in the Saints favor based on what they saw on tape:
"When the Saints looked at the Colts on tape, they saw two up-men on the front line of the Indy kick-return team cheating. That is, when the kicker approached the ball, two guys on the right of the kick-return unit -- as the kickoff team looked ahead, to the left -- turned and began retreating to set up their blocks for a return just before the ball was kicked. So when Payton saw this, he figured the Saints would definitely try an onside kick at some point of the game."
Read More: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/20...02/08/mmqb.superbowl/index.html#ixzz0f0xdgsIA
HOU-TEX
Ah, Football!
I'm so tired of all the excuses.
Stop making excuses!
Woulda, coulda, shoulda!
Blah, blah, blah!
Parrot, parrot, parrot!
Regurgitate, regurgitate, regurgitate!
/end pink soaper imitation
My tongue tripped and fell when I got to this line. Say it 3 times fast. hehe
GP
Go Texans!
Ah, I see now. The picture is clearer.
You think:
A.) Going for the HB Pass on 1st down was a dagger-in-the-heart play. But I don't think that's the right spot to pull out that play.
B.) You didn't think it was telegraphed. I re-watched that play on the day it happened. I wanted to see what caused it to fail. Yes, the TE was open. But he was open because he slipped by what was easily a very smart, shallow zone where the defense was wisely stringing that play out to the sideline. They were, IMO, taunting and daring Chris Brown to throw that pass. Re-watch it, TK, if you have it still--You'll see that Chris Brown does a very BAD job of selling that play as a running play. He did, man. It's true. He takes the ball from Schaub, and IIRC, he's almost immediately slowing down to a trot and pulling the ball back to get ready for a throw. It was telegraphed. Our oline was blocking like it's a pass play, not trying to get to the next level like they would on a run block. The defense was tipped verrry early.
C.) Kubiak admitted that HE made that call. Schaub does not get to audible out of a pass play and into another pass play--Some say he can, but I don't think he does. Schaub would have audibled out of that play. He's smarter than that. Supposedly.
The moment Kubiak called that play, it was going to happen. So I think you're saying, by your comments, that this is STILL on the players for not stepping up and owning that situation. That it's plausible that McNair was right when he defends Kubiak and blames the players?
Isn't that a tad bit too slanted toward the coach, in terms of being defended to the point that the owner calls out the players for not helping the coach overcome his own gameday deficiencies? I was really taken aback about the little scolding that McNair threw at the players. Maybe that's aimed at Mario. If so, I understand. But not the majority of other players out there. Those guys busted their collective butts this past season.
This was the first year that I have watched, where I could see all areas of the team giving their best effort. In the past, certain people and certain groups would sort of take turns dogging it. You could see the indifference in their body language. This year? I stand by what I say: The players lapped Kubiak when comparing their perspective roles and responsibilities.
That's how I see it. So it's just my take. I can see now that we're pretty far apart on coach vs. players. Right?
hi guys
GuerillaBlack
Hall of Fame
Yeah, but we were ahead on both Indy games. Bad coaching is what lost us those games...not losing OD. I mean, he would have definitely helped, but we were in positions to win regardless.
Ever heard of signing a new kicker?
dalemurphy
Hall of Fame
You said we'd have won at least one of those 4 games, if we'd only fired the Browns. It was a ridiculous statement. First of all, why on earth would we have fired Kris Brown before the Tennessee game? He missed one big kick the week before against Indy but was excellent for us the past 2 1/2 seasons. If we cut him after the Tennessee game, I'm not sure how that helps us since he didn't miss a kick vs. Indy or vs. Jacksonville. Perhaps you wanted him replaced with a magic kicker? that could score more points per FG than Kris Brown could, who went 3 for 3 over those two games.
Regardless of all that, how ridiculous do you have to be to think that simply cutting players can make your position stronger in the middle of the season?
Too bad the Redskins didn't cut Jason Campbell in October. Imagine how much better they would've been at QB. Or, perhaps Jacksonville should've cut their starting DEs in order to improve their pass rush. Maybe Baltimore could've cut Derek Mason in order to improve their passing game?
houstonspartan
All Pro
Dale, you and I have discussed this over and over. Replacing a kicker late in the season isn't really all that hard. Ask that somewhat successful team in New Orleans.
Kickers are a dime a damn dozen.
Texecutioner
Hall of Fame
I don't think it's completely all about the fact that we didn't "start" a new kicker over Brown, but it's more about the fact that we never once even looked for another kicker or tried out any new legs. Had Kubes at least tried out some new guys and signed a guy for the rest of the season and let him and Kris Brown compete day after day through practice to see who had the hotter leg than I don't think you'd hear the criticism as much. Had we brought a guy in as a back up and Kubes said he felt that Brown still had been more accurate and he felt more confident in Brown from the practices then I wouldn't have been as upset about how we neglected to look elsewhere. I could have lived with that possibly. At least it showed that Kubes wasn't getting to complacent with the same ole guys who weren't doing their job. It wouldn't have been as bad that way. But since he did nothing at all, and just let nature take it's course "assuming" that the problems would fix themselves on their own and Brown continued to get worse and worse and hurt the team's chances, well the criticism is very valid and Kubes should be held accountable for not acting.
dalemurphy
Hall of Fame
That didn't happen in New Orleans. Hartley was on the roster before the season started.
That's not the point, though. He was arguing that we'd have won at least one of those 4 games if Brown was cut. But, there isn't one coach in the NFL that would've cut Kris Brown before the Tennessee game. Kris Brown never missed another kick in any Texan loss after the Monday night game versus Tennessee.
Texecutioner
Hall of Fame
But he sure as hell missed a few in those last few wins.
I mean, he couldn't even make a freaking extra point FG. It got darn ugly at the end of the season man. No excuse for not looking at what other legs might have been out there that could have possibly contributed.
dalemurphy
Hall of Fame
Hello? What are you responding to? Nobody is arguing this point. Once again, the point I was making is that Kris Brown did not adversely affect our W/L record after the point when cutting him would've been a consideration.
I'm sure the heck not defending Kris Brown!
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