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Baldinger: Bob McNair "content with mediocrity"
- Thread starter Wolf
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houstonspartan
All Pro
Vinny, well said and well thought out. I agree 100 percent.
I just read Peter King's comments and was floored. He was 100 percent. And I liked how he was direct and to-the-point: Enough with the excuses. Win.
Vegas or Bust....
What does that mean? Does that mean if I don't make it to Vegas I'm going to ditch my car?
To me, that means no excuses, whatever it takes, that's where we are going. It means I don't have a plan B... "well, if we don't make it to Vegas we'll stop in Colorado for some skiing." No, it means I'll sell the clothes off my back if I have to, to get to Vegas.
Same thing here. Play-offs or bust, means we don't have a plan B, means a winning season would be a disappointment, if there are no play-offs to go with it.
It doesn't mean heads are going to roll...... & Bob was pretty clear about that early on. When he was asked, what the problem was, he said it was a player issue, an on the field issue.
I challenge anyone to produce something concrete with McNair putting the pressure on Kubiak... anything saying McNair is not happy with Kubiak.
All the Kubiak's job is on the line crap was born in the media & on these boards, McNair said no such thing. Never alluded to it either.
I do agree, if we truly had a play-offs or bust attitude, Larry Johnson would have been on this team.... so I'll agree with that.
But I don't believe Kubiak's job was ever in jeopardy.
Really, it's past time for the Texans to win. They should have won in 2008, and used that success as a springboard into 2009. But, that's quibbling. Forget the final record of 9-7. 5-7 was a failure. Just as 0-4 and 3-7 were failures in 2008. Why does everything have to be sugar coated for some of the Texans fans?Peter King said:
Here's a question I asked this offseason during the Sunshine Club debates:
The answer was...yes. The loss in JAX effectively ended the Texans playoff chances. The Texans were a win in Oakland away from pulling the same feat in 2008. The Houston Texans. Winning when it no longer matters! Try selling PSLs with that slogan.
It's obvious to casual observers such as Baldinger and King that the Texans don't win when the season is on the line. That must change in 2010. If 2009 was "The Year of No Excuses" (right), then 2010 is "Really, the Year of No Excuses. We're serious this time. No fooling."
No reasonable fan can call this a young team. The core of this group is in the prime of their careers. Only 8 NFL head coaches have longer tenures than Gary Kubiak. 6 of those coaches have taken their team to the Super Bowl. That's this big game at the end of the season where they hand out a trophy to the winner, and stuff. At this point, progress should be measured by what type of hardware is being held after the last game.
I agree.
Fisher, Tomlin, Ryans, Harbaugh.... all considered "good coaches" around here nowadays. All had the same problems Kubiak did.
I understand they've had success recently. But my point is still, if these "good coaches" can suffer from the same things that plagued Kubiak..... poor division record, 3-4 game loosing streaks, loosing when it really counts... etc... that means it can happen to good coaches.
yes or no, does that make sense?
If it could happen to a good coach.... that means Kubiak is not a bad coach simply because it happened to him.. does that make sense? I'm not saying that since Kubiak suffered the same fate, it makes him a good coach. I'm just saying this isn't "evidence" that Kubiak is a bad coach.
He's built a good team, solid young foundation, with the stats to show they can play well in this league. That to me says he's a good coach.
He may be a slow coach.... I won't argue with that. But to say he'll never get us over the hump, is like saying Dungy & Manning can't win the big games.
How long do we give him to do it, I don't know. But I don't think 5 years instead of 4 is asking too much. & yes, I've already said if we don't win big next year, he needs to go.
I'll go so far as to say if we don't win the division, I want him gone.
If that means anything to you.
I think that may be a little strong TK. In the division we play in with Manning, winning the division may not be realistic because of overall record. I will not be upset with a winning record in the division. The main things I expect to see out of our Texans are consistant effort and to be competitive in every game. If we come out totally unprepared for any game like we did against the Jets and the MNF game against the Ticks, I will be leading the charge to get Kubiak canned. But if we go 4-2 in the division and 11-5 overall and miss the playoffs, perhaps Kubiak is doing his job. There are more considerations than playoffs and winning the division.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
And where did I say anything about respect other than to agree folks need to shut up about it?
It has been 8 years, yes 64 games otherwise known as 4 seasons for Kubiak. I don't know where y'all get this games didn't count thing this season. We won our last game and still had a chance at the playoffs. Spit the bitterness bit out for just a minute. Every year there are teams making the playoffs on tiebreakers. Might as well say our playoff chances ended week one.
Hardcore Texan
Magnet Man
Exactly. And according to king/baldinger we don't win where there is something to play for. And the pats where trying to win that game, Brady was put back in at the start of the second half way after the Welker injury.
The Ravens and the Jets finished at 9-7. Both with tiebreakers over the Texans. The Texans 7th loss, in Jacksonville, effectively ended the Texans playoffs chances. There was nothing the Texans could have done on their behalf at that point to earn a playoff berth.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
I understand that perfectly well. And like I said every year there are teams that need to win in week 17 plus have something else happen that get into the playoffs. Or like the last game in 2008 have everything fall their way and don't take care of business by losing to the Texans. This year we weren't spoiling someone else with no chance of our own, we took care of business and the rest didn't fall into line. That happens. And I just disagree on effectively ended. During that 4 week stretch the Ravens or Jets could have lost on any weekend. Not being in control of your own fate and being out of the playoffs are not the same thing. This meaningless game stuff is silly at least this year. We finished our 16th game and were not out of the playoffs. It wasn't a meaningless game.
Along that same line of thinking, the Jets didn't do anything to earn their playoff berth. They got in, because Baltimore lost to Pittsburgh, week 16.
Same thing as us having a shot with a Jets loss week 17.
DexmanC
Hall of Fame
It was effectively a consolation prize for handing control of your playoff
lives over to the Jaguars. At the end of the day, whenever the Texans
have had a chance to get that "big win," they CHOKE. This is what
Baldinger and King were very clear about. King even went so far as to say
that EVERYONE in that NBC studio on "Football Night In America" watch
every game wondering HOW the Texans are gonna lose it.
This is a well-earned reputation they have nationally. All we have now is
"hope," because there are no results that point to us competing within our
division and closing out games to the top-half-of-the-league teams.
The Jags limped home 0-4. As did the Broncos. A few wins down the stretch by one of these teams, and the Texans would have been eliminated much earlier. We can play the "what if" game all day long. The Texans had no chance at the playoffs after the loss to the Jags. That's an indisputable fact.
No chance? The chances were pretty good that the Texans would make the play-offs, until Curtis Painter took his first NFL snap.
& that's an indisputable fact.
DexmanC
Hall of Fame
Nice 0-4 glossover. Gloss over the fact the reason the Colts were able
to rest their starters for the last two games of the season were partly
because the Texans HANDED OVER two wins to them.
Hardcore Texan
Magnet Man
Yep, and had it been us that got in and made it all the way to the AFC championship game this conversation/thread would not be happening, and that's kind of the point we are making.
I think we all want to win and it not come to getting lucky, including the owner and people saying he's content with being mediocre is good ole fashion conjecture yet it has legs with some.
I'm with you... but you don't see me "propping" the Jets because, "They took care of business." They are just as lucky to get into the play-offs as we would have been.
My post you quoted had nothing to do with the Texans...
It was more about the Jets, and how they are regarded by "Texans" fans. Complete double standard.
I'm not glossing over any fact, as that wasn't relevant to the argument at the time.
Yes, you make a good point.
Fact remains our chances were as good as the Jets for making the play-offs, before Painter entered that game.
sbalderrama
Noob
This faux word immediately turns me off of anything you might want to say, but hey, if it makes you feel superior in your own mind have at it.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Hardly. Many teams have made it on narrower chances but if that's the drum you want to bang go for it. Not even close to an indisputable fact. Rather than indisputable I find that assertion laughable.
But hey it's done. We didn't get in. We need a neutral arbitrator - someone get Peyton on the line and ask whether he would rather have faced the Jets or Texans?
Nice 4-0 gloss over. We took care of business and they didn't. In case you haven't noticed it doesn't matter when you get the wins it is how many that counts. Oh and your Colts comment is totally figment of your hatination. Make them 12-2 going into the last two games and the Texans 9-5 we couldn't catch them for division or home field.
HoustonFrog
Dallas Frog
I find it humorous that the Texans were one of those blown games from the playoffs(according to some) and a better record...7 points and under and yet 5 games they won were by 7 points or under. Could have lost alot more too. When is that reality mentioned? No need to keep blaming the Jets. You are what you are and they kicked the Texans ass.
I'm surprised at some of the Pat game love here also. They sat 3 of their top D backs to rest them. They could have played if the game was needed. They took guys in and out all game. It was a win but stop acting like they went all out to win. Please child. As King said, add that to the Rams and Seattle game and it wasn't like the were steaming toward the playoffs. They made their bed in the mid 4 games. That is all there is to it. In the end the blame lies in the mirror
Overall, I hear a Dead or Alive song going in my head and I'll back away with good intentions.
I'm surprised at some of the Pat game love here also. They sat 3 of their top D backs to rest them. They could have played if the game was needed. They took guys in and out all game. It was a win but stop acting like they went all out to win. Please child. As King said, add that to the Rams and Seattle game and it wasn't like the were steaming toward the playoffs. They made their bed in the mid 4 games. That is all there is to it. In the end the blame lies in the mirror
Overall, I hear a Dead or Alive song going in my head and I'll back away with good intentions.
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houstonspartan
All Pro
Texan_Bill
Hall of Fame
This is both the greatest and the most asinine thread........... ever.
Hardcore Texan
Magnet Man
I hope none of this is directed at me. I have been very objective about it, I know the record, I know the wins have to come in the division, I have been VERY critical of the performance of the team especially in that context. But stating that it's crapshoot at the end of the season, some teams make it by the skin of their teeth and some don't it truthful and objective and talking about how small the differences are, are also truthful, and how perception is changed by being on either side of that is too. I thought we were just talking about all the possiblities, and how slight a margin of what is perceived as success. My main and only problem is saying McNair is content with anything is freaking stupid......like anyone outside his trusted circle knows, pretty much my contention all along in this thread. This effin debate has just turned into nothing but hot air and a waste of key strokes. People say a win is a win, no matter what this and that and say the pats win wasn't important when there was in fact something on the line. I could care less at this point, the season is over, the team needs to get better and take care of their own business. Things like "please child" and other remarks I am reading just come across as condescening "you don't have a clue and your're not on my level so don't even try" type attitude.
ChampionTexan
Hall of Fame
This is both the greatest and the most asinine thread........... ever.
And the best part is there's lots more just like it!
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
I don't think this word means what you think it means.
Pantherstang84
@rolisrgti06
Rep.
HoustonFrog
Dallas Frog
HT, it was directed at no one
1) I was well sauced after a nice party that my wife and I had attended last night
2) Over alot of pages I'd seen alot about how the team was a missed kick here or a TD there from winning or tying games. Very true. But just like a win is a win, a loss is a loss. I just wanted to point out in general that 5 of their wins was by a TD or less too so the other argument can be made. Especially flat games like the Rams.
3) What am I doing up with the kids right now?
4) Again, saw much talk of the Pats game and again, a win is a win but in that talk it was mentioned how the Pats were putting Brady in to win. Why did they sit him to start then if it was such a big game?King mentions this. They also sat alot of iffy key personnel in their secondary. Ones that probably would have played if the playoffs were on the line. I don't think sitting Moss would have happened either.
It was just random, deep thought by a mind that was pickled at the time
Don't be condescending. It's meant exactly as intended.
I've tired of playing these reindeer games. I'm done with discussing the 2009 Houston Texans. My opinion doesn't count, anyway. The only opinion that counts is from the guy who writes the checks. His opinion has been heard.
So everyone gets a clean slate for 2010, as far as I'm concerned. There should be only one objective from this organization. And that should be to become champions. Every free agent signing, every draft selection, every mini camp, every training camp practice session should have that in mind. The goal is not to "improve". It's to raise the Vince Lombardi Trophy on February 6, 2011 in Arlington, Texas.
dalemurphy
Hall of Fame
Don't be condescending. It's meant exactly as intended.
I've tired of playing these reindeer games. I'm done with discussing the 2009 Houston Texans. My opinion doesn't count, anyway. The only opinion that counts is from the guy who writes the checks. His opinion has been heard.
So everyone gets a clean slate for 2010, as far as I'm concerned. There should be only one objective from this organization. And that should be to become champions. Every free agent signing, every draft selection, every mini camp, every training camp practice session should have that in mind. The goal is not to "improve". It's to raise the Vince Lombardi Trophy on February 6, 2011 in Arlington, Texas.
I don't think you and Mr. McNair are on the same page. He wants to build a sustainable and healthy organization. He also wants his organization to stand for things beyond winning. Here's a question that I think is good for fans to really consider:
Which of these two options would you prefer?:
A. Texans win the Superbowl next year but fall back into mediocrity the two following years.
B. Texans don't win the Superbowl but make the playoffs three consecutive seasons and have at least one serious run (AFC Championship, at least)
Certainly those aren't the only two possibilities... But, the point is that a lot of fans would prefer option A over B. I disagree. I'm pretty sure Bob McNair disagrees as well. He certainly wants to win a Superbowl but I think he'd rather build an organization like Phildelphia has run rather than win a Superbowl and fade away again. It's an important distinction, because I don't think he's going to sell out for a single season like a lot of you may want him to do.
MannyFresh
El Capitan
Exactly! And every year there are 31 teams that have failed that season.
beerlover
Hall of Fame
lets end this discussion beerlover style- one from avg. tasting/avg. brewer side & second an exceptional taster/exceptional brewers side.
the average taster/fan just wants to quench his or her own thirst, just as long as its cold & wet/live NFL football. while the average brewer wants to make as much money as he or she can by providing what sells out quickly/Relient. So the avg. taster is satisfied/fans & the average brewer is satisfied/McNair.
the exceptional taster fan wants more from his beverage, whether it be a specific malt, hop or yeast flavor. He or she is not satisfied with just something cold & wet wanting more flavor, award winning/TexansTalk fan. The exceptional brewer wants to market his beverage to those who support him or her to keep producing highly driven, recognized, award winning beer/playoffs/Kubiak?
there is nothing that can quench my thirst like winning
/
Don't get into bizarro scenarios. That's TK's department. There's nothing about winning a championship that automatically drags a team into mediocrity. That has more to do with players becoming too comfortable and satisfied, or too expensive for a team to keep under the cap.
As those whining about the Colts and Bengals resting starters stated, you play to win the game. Project that mentality out, and you play to win the championship. Certainly, there has to be some team building to get to that point. The Saints have been building for 4 seasons, and have the opportunity today. If they accomplish that goal, what would preclude them from repeating?
In an NFL.com 2009 preseason interview, Kubiak said that a "realistic" goal would be to get into the playoffs. I asked the question then, if the head coach doesn't believe that winning the Super Bowl is realistic, how will the players ever feel that way? Kubiak needs to set the bar high. That's what great coaches do.
Normally, you and I are on the same page, concerning this issue. But I disagree with this statement.
Yes, I acknowledge that you said these aren't the only options... but still.
McNair, I think believes just like Lucky, every year, the goal is Super Bowl.
The difference, is that Lucky... or at least many of the people here, feel that Kubiak should be fired because we didn't get into the play-offs. Thereby they believe McNair accepts the "mediocrity" Kubiak has delivered.
One reason they believe Kubiak should have been fired, is because that is the way it has gone in the NFL in recent years. So they've got a point.
At the end of 2008, we all agreed that we need to stop shooting ourselves in the foot. This year, I think we are all saying the same thing.
So you think McNair couldn't care less if we ever win a Super Bowl, as long as we sell out Reliant?the exceptional taster fan wants more from his beverage, whether it be a specific malt, hop or yeast flavor. He or she is not satisfied with just something cold & wet wanting more flavor, award winning/TexansTalk fan. The exceptional brewer wants to market his beverage to those who support him or her to keep producing highly driven, recognized, award winning beer/playoffs/Kubiak?
there is nothing that can quench my thirst like winning
You think Dale is happy that we sell out Reliant?
I would bet Dale, just like me, and I'll gaurantee every other Sunshiner wants a SuperBowl just as badly as you do.
The only difference is that we believe Kubiak will get us there. You & the Soapers don't.
But we all want a Super Bowl.
Just to clarify..... I'm not whining about them resting their starters. My only complaint is when people say, "The Jets took care of business" when they did no such thing. They needed & got the kind of help the Texans needed. Not only with the Colts laying down (I don't think the Bengals had a chance to beat the Jets), but with Pittsburgh beating the Ravens week 16.
John Kitna was laughed at when he said it was realistic for the Lions to win 10 games..... I agree the goal should be set high... & I can see what you mean Kubiak should be trying to win the Super Bowl every year.
By the same token, when we discussed what was realistic for this team, many did not believe we could win 10 games.....
dalemurphy
Hall of Fame
TK,
My point isn't about the ultimate goal. But, about what sacrifices a person is willing/ unwilling to make in order to reach his goal. In this instance, I don't believe McNair wouldn't make the same/ or as many sacrifices for a single Superbowl trophy as Jerry Jones will. Jerry would structure contracts and bring in FAs that could greatly help the team in the short term but also lead to some purging and rough years in the long term. McNair has said many times that he wants to follow the models of these organizations: NE, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh... Nothing about that precludes championships. However, in that model, they don't look at each season and "do everything possible" to make the Superbowl. Those organizations are steady. They don't sell out for one season. That's all I was trying to say.
If Jerry was running this team, Chris Brown.. or Ryan Moats at least, since we weren't playing him anyway... would have been cut, & Larry Johnson would have got the majority of Carries on Monday Night.
If "Play-offs or bust" was real, I can't imagine a scenario that Larry Johnson doesn't end up on this team.
No, but they end up with a Fred Taylor, or a Terrell Owens, or a Corey Dillon & Randy Moss on their team.
We end up with Chris Brown, Ahman Green & Eric Moulds.
Great Post
I hope the soapers (including myself) are wrong.
If we are wrong I'm sure JT will be here to remind us in the most classless way possible.
We all want a Super Bowl win, you're right some just want to see it in our lifetimes. With the pace McNair makes decisions the results of seeing a Texan hoisting a SB trophy is ? at best atleast during or lifetimes.
Like I stated before it really doesn't matter. It's McNair's team and he wiill keep on cashing those checks.
BTW McNair said it was playoffs or bust before the season began, No playoffs, no reprecussions.
McNair isn't willing to make changes in his gravy train. When McNair says playoffs or bust this year I will just laugh.
McNair wants to win a SB but not at the expense of the bottom line. IMO
Hardcore Texan
Magnet Man
HT, it was directed at no one
1) I was well sauced after a nice party that my wife and I had attended last night
2) Over alot of pages I'd seen alot about how the team was a missed kick here or a TD there from winning or tying games. Very true. But just like a win is a win, a loss is a loss. I just wanted to point out in general that 5 of their wins was by a TD or less too so the other argument can be made. Especially flat games like the Rams.
3) What am I doing up with the kids right now?
4) Again, saw much talk of the Pats game and again, a win is a win but in that talk it was mentioned how the Pats were putting Brady in to win. Why did they sit him to start then if it was such a big game?King mentions this. They also sat alot of iffy key personnel in their secondary. Ones that probably would have played if the playoffs were on the line. I don't think sitting Moss would have happened either.
It was just random, deep thought by a mind that was pickled at the time
It's all good. I was TUI (typing under the influence) as well last night. I took it as directed towards me or some of the others that are saying very similiar things in there post. Every once in awhile I might just get a little defensive after a couple of brews.....
In the end we all want the same thing, a damn trophy!
GP
Go Texans!
houstonspartan
All Pro
LOL.
I am honestly impressed with Sean Payton. I was rooting for the Colts, but I can't ignore what Sean Payton has done in four years. He went from 3-13 to two Championship games, a Super Bowl appearance and a Super Bowl win.
Gotta give him some props. He's a great coach.
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