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Official Brock Osweiler MVP Watch Thread!
- Thread starter 76Texan
- Start date
Not quite applicable. Even driving the automatic, you are driving. So, yeah, you learn the rules of the road and how to watch out for other drivers.
Osweiler's situation was more akin to him watching from the back seat the whole time until he was given the keys (and very specific instructions (you know Kubiak) on what route to take) when the regular driver called in sick for a few days.
Now he's in a new situation, driving under new rules.
It's like he studied Driver's Ed (and got to practice a bit) in America
and now he has to drive in England.
Yeah, it's still a car and it's still driving. But it ain't the way he learned it.
So it takes getting used; i.e., on-the-road, practice to in order to be proficient at it.
Make sense?
sandman
Brexit Advisor
Exactly. My daughter just got her driving license here in the UK. She has never driven in the States. But I'm sending her home for college in June after being a driver on the wrong side of the road for less than a year. My daughter is Brock Osweiler...
I don't think it's just the OL, and it's not just Os. There is failings all around. The OL needs to improve their blocking, Os needs to improve all around, and the play calling needs to advance beyond remedial stage
TxnsJuggernaut
Veteran
Yes I can go along with that if they are surrounded by good coaching and have an atleast decent offensive line and atleast two dependable receivers and an atleast average running game to compliment them.
They also need a defense that does better than ours was last Sunday.
Brock has the recievers but outside of that he has little help. Coaching is not bad per say but it is obvious it is playing a role in his lack of noticeable improvement.
That is not me giving Brock a pass if he maintains this level of play but it is me looking at the whole picture.
I'm not saying he is completely let off the hook because he has some obvious short comings. I still know that a lot of Qb's failed thanks to a lot variables outside thier control.
Heck look at Cleveland. The Browns have been a Qb graveyard. That is not a matter of the Browns drafting poorly at the Qb position but it is a matter of guys flaming out due to the pieces around them.
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TxnsJuggernaut
Veteran
I agree with this. There a are those rare special Qb's that overcome the poor variables outside of what they can bring to the table.
Brock has enough talent around him that he should be able at some point to become an atleast good Qb. He has to overcome some poor tendencies.
Still before I determin him a bust I will take into account all the variables that surround him.
At this point I am 50/50 on his part and the part his coaches and teammates have played in the slow start. I also have to take the learning curve into account.
As far as David Carr, I am sorry but he was done as soon as he first took a snap for this team. I will never place blame of any kind on David Carr.
TxnsJuggernaut
Veteran
This was well thought out and deserves a lot more likes but many on this board have written Brock Osweiler off and no explanation is enough.
Grams
Veteran
You know, that is a very good explanation, but I am not sure I agree. Brock had many months to practice on-the-road with mini camps, OTA's, training camp, plus extra practice in Arizona. He should already be proficient by now. Now everybody has a bad game or two, but even when Tom Brady is having a bad day, you don't seem him "running scared" as Brock has done in the games against the Pats and Vikes.
If you ever listen to the Greg and ND show, they've both said numerous times that you can't replicate game situations in practice, the games are so much faster. If I'm not mistaken Brock's has had 10 starts, so in terms of game development he's still a rookie. I'm discouraged by what I've seen in the NE and Minn games but but he looked phenomenal in the first half of the Titans game. I'm hoping as the season progresses we see more of the Titan Brock and less of the NE Minn Brock. Those are both are both good defenses and, in Minnesota's case, one of the best. Good Ds can make even good QBs look bad - see the last Super Bowl as an example of that.
Let's hope for all our sakes he gets a little better each week
Let's hope for all our sakes he gets a little better each week
And that's all we can reasonably expect
No need....
For the purposes of this thread
MVP = Most Villified Player
We have one every year. It's a rotating "honor".
when I first joined the board it was HWSNBN
then Petey Faggins took a turn
Kareem Jackson was MVP for a bit but then he got better
Then it was Clowney, and he got healthy and better
Now it's Osweiler's (and his huge contract) turn to wear the Texans' MVP moniker
I haven't been to England, so I don't know.
But I have friends and relatives who live in different countries and had no problem driving on the other side of the road.
Get back to you soon.
The reason Osweiler looks good in the first half of the Titans game was because he had all day to throw.
Plenty back up QBs can do that.
Now this thread can really be renamed with the original title I created.No need....
For the purposes of this thread
MVP = Most Villified Player
We have one every year. It's a rotating "honor".
when I first joined the board it was HWSNBN
then Petey Faggins took a turn
Kareem Jackson was MVP for a bit but then he got better
Then it was Clowney, and he got healthy and better
Now it's Osweiler's (and his huge contract) turn to wear the Texans' MVP moniker
It reads "Osweiler, color me skeptical".
I think that title is a much better description of what we had, have, and continuing to have.
It may entertain you some if you went back to the beginning and read all of my post.
Where's that "Bill O'Brien... Genius" thread?
You know how when training for a race some people put on ankle weights? How baseball players put extra weight on their bats? How if you stand in a door way & push on the jamb with all your might, your arms seem to float when you exit the doorway.
I think that's what's going on here. O'b has our offense playing with basic concepts. Making it more difficult for our offense to move the ball & score points.
Pretty soon he's going to lift the artificial weight & this offense is going to fly.
perfect
You know how when training for a race some people put on ankle weights? How baseball players put extra weight on their bats? How if you stand in a door way & push on the jamb with all your might, your arms seem to float when you exit the doorway.
I think that's what's going on here. O'b has our offense playing with basic concepts. Making it more difficult for our offense to move the ball & score points.
Pretty soon he's going to lift the artificial weight & this offense is going to fly.
No need....
For the purposes of this thread
MVP = Most Villified Player
We have one every year. It's a rotating "honor".
when I first joined the board it was HWSNBN
then Petey Faggins took a turn
Kareem Jackson was MVP for a bit but then he got better
Then it was Clowney, and he got healthy and better
Now it's Osweiler's (and his huge contract) turn to wear the Texans' MVP moniker
perfect
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Texas Jake
Rookie
Here is my take on Osweiler:
I believe he has the physical talent to be successful. What he lacks is proficiency on the field - or to put it another way, the ability to use those physical attributes effectively in a game situation.
I think he has studied the playbook and knows if fairly well, but there is a difference between knowing a playbook and being able to execute it on the field. Like any complex task, head knowledge doesn't directly translate to being able to perform the task well, only practice executing the tasks leads to proficiency. What Brock needs to learn can only be learned in a game situation. Running the offense and playing QB has to become instinctive for him - something he doesn't have to think about doing, he just does. If he is thinking about the how to run the play, that is brain power that could have been used analyzing and reacting to what he is happening on the field.
I have learned from experience that when performing a complex task, with limited time to perform it, there is a tendency to get tunnel vision until you develop some proficiency and things slow down for you. Not only is vision contracted, but you can only process a limited amount of the information in that narrowed view. There can be six things in front off you and you only are aware of two of them. When overwhelmed by too much information, that can't be processed, you tend to fixate on what you determine is most important, such as your primary receiver. I think this is where Brock is now. This would explain is tendency to stare down receivers. It also explains why he can see his receiver and not the defensive player closing in to pick-off the pass. With enough time on the field, things should slow down for him and his awareness should improve. Once his vision opens up, his tendency to stare down receivers should decrease, his progressions should improve, and his ability to see and analyze what is happening on the field post snap should improve. When (and if) this all happens, he will become a much better QB.
With enough time (that is NFL game time) this should happen, the big question is how much time is enough time and does this team have that much time to give Brock.
I believe he has the physical talent to be successful. What he lacks is proficiency on the field - or to put it another way, the ability to use those physical attributes effectively in a game situation.
I think he has studied the playbook and knows if fairly well, but there is a difference between knowing a playbook and being able to execute it on the field. Like any complex task, head knowledge doesn't directly translate to being able to perform the task well, only practice executing the tasks leads to proficiency. What Brock needs to learn can only be learned in a game situation. Running the offense and playing QB has to become instinctive for him - something he doesn't have to think about doing, he just does. If he is thinking about the how to run the play, that is brain power that could have been used analyzing and reacting to what he is happening on the field.
I have learned from experience that when performing a complex task, with limited time to perform it, there is a tendency to get tunnel vision until you develop some proficiency and things slow down for you. Not only is vision contracted, but you can only process a limited amount of the information in that narrowed view. There can be six things in front off you and you only are aware of two of them. When overwhelmed by too much information, that can't be processed, you tend to fixate on what you determine is most important, such as your primary receiver. I think this is where Brock is now. This would explain is tendency to stare down receivers. It also explains why he can see his receiver and not the defensive player closing in to pick-off the pass. With enough time on the field, things should slow down for him and his awareness should improve. Once his vision opens up, his tendency to stare down receivers should decrease, his progressions should improve, and his ability to see and analyze what is happening on the field post snap should improve. When (and if) this all happens, he will become a much better QB.
With enough time (that is NFL game time) this should happen, the big question is how much time is enough time and does this team have that much time to give Brock.
chicagotexan2
Easterby = Little Finger/Cal = Fredo Corleone
Carr was thrust into a bad situation from the start. But Carr never put in the time to become a good quarterback. He was never the player that stayed late. His own teammates said they wish he had more dedication but he didn't. I'd say there was plenty of blame to go around and Carr wasn't blameless himself.
Good post. & I agree with most of it. My only nit to pick is that I really don't think Brock had a tendency to stare down receivers.
I know it might look like he's not turning his head & I could be wrong. But I think of it like when I'm driving. I can look a hundred yards ahead of me, a hundred yards ahead to the right, a hundred yards ahead to the left, & check my rear view without moving my head.
I'm not locked on to the light ahead, but I'm well aware of the state it's in. I'm scanning the whole time, looking for cars coming into my lane, stopping abruptly in front of me, affecting my escape routes, getting into my safe zone...
Same thing with Brock, at least I hope it is. I like to think he's watching the defense, not his receivers. A lot of routes are determined by how the defense plays the combination after routes on the field.
like that INT in the Patriots game. I think he was reading the corner, the safety, & the LB. the corner dropped to an outside trail technique. the safety stayed on top, inside the route. the lb dropped to a shallow zone.
everything was working to exactly what he wanted. If Hopkins cuts across the safety, it's an easy pitch & catch provided he can put enough mustard on it to get it to Hop before the window closes.
At the snap, Collins jumps on the TE route going the other way, then falls back to the middle of the field. I doubt there are many LBs (especially his size) that could have, or would have got that deep after initially jumping on the TE route to the other side of the field.
That was just a heck of a play by a heck of an athlete.
my 2 cents
EVOLVIST
Kid A
I'm all seriousness, yet I doubt it will happen, and even though a Texans' quarterback cannot trust his offensive line, I have little doubt that Josh Weeden would come in and do better than Brock...and Savage, too.
I'm not saying that Brock isn't the answer, but Weeden is wasting away here. He finally put it together after he left Cleveland.
chicagotexan2
Easterby = Little Finger/Cal = Fredo Corleone
Wasn't weeden terrible in Dallas behind a good oline? I think our oline is garbage and I doubt weeden would or could do any better. At this point I'm close to giving up hope on Brock being really good and I'm just hoping for the rest of the season he isn't really bad. I'd rather see savage ahead of weeden if that's what it came to.
Brock Osweiler is 3-0 at home as the Texans starter.
EVOLVIST
Kid A
No, Weeden wasn't terrible (I can't believe I said Josh Weeden and not Brandon).
With the Cowboys he was always over 60% with his throws, with QBRs of 149.7, 87.8, 105.6, and 66.9, with a 1:1 TD to INT ratio, until he got to Houston, whereupon he had very little time to work with the offense and he had QBRs of 95.8 and 116.7, with 3 TDs and 0 picks.
With Brock we don't have a QBR above 89, with a 6 TDs and 7 INTs, and only 2 games with 60% passing.
So, I ask myself, why was Weeden able to come in and really perform in this complex offense, on very short notice, while Brock appears like he's barely keeping it together out there, with a full off-season and all the attention as the starter.
I'm not saying that Weeden is the answer, not am I saying that Brock isn't. But with an offensive line like we have, I think it's time to dumb this game down and just play ball, like they did when Weeden took over.
The Texans right now are outwitting themselves on the offensive side of the ball.
Exactly! It's that smartest man on the field syndrome
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Weeden didn't play this offense. They hucked 3/4 of the 'system' out the window and played common concept football.
EVOLVIST
Kid A
You must have missed this part:
I'm not saying that Weeden is the answer, not am I saying that Brock isn't. But with an offensive line like we have, I think it's time to dumb this game down and just play ball, like they did when Weeden took over.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
No, I saw you made two contradictory statements and responded to the one I thought was incorrect.
What witt?
What witt?
It should be the other way around.
Remember how many SBs Bill Walsh had won with the WCO?
Then how steady Shanahan made the Beoncos.
You would think that if it's an easy system to run, and have great sucess, that more people would do it, right?
Or you mean the 5-2 record by Osweiler was a fluke, as he was only sitting in the back seat?
Hmm, come to think of that.
You may have a point there.
No, the Pats were in a 53 zone.
The concept is a modified tampa 2 coverage, which looks like this:
The tampa 2 is basically a 43 zone, like shown in the video.
However, on this particular play, the Pats also dropped the LDE on the 4-man front back to cover the short middle, thus become a 53 coverage.
From my understanding, the original tampa 2 was quite successful against the WCO, but then those teams began to send a slot receiver or TE deep down the middle. Or they can exploit the short middle of the field.
In the tampa 2, the MLB has too much responsibility since he has to take care of the middle all by himself at the beginning.
By dropping a down lineman into the hook zone (short middle), the MLB no longer has to worry about the short 5-yard route.
Look at the video again.
The right outside receiver ran a short 5-yard crossing route into the short middle of the field.
As the MLB dropped into the hole (the medium middle), the receiver was wide open in the hook zone.
See how the QB looked him of by making him believe he (the QB) was reading the left receiver and the left RB?
Now, you take a down lineman and drop him into that hook zone, the MLB can "roam" the field.
If he doesn't see any receiver coming into his area of responsibility in the middle deep third, he can just read the QB's eye and jump the route.
Hervoyel
BUENO!
I swear when I read that I had an Animal House flashback.
Otter: "Josh?"
Boon: "Forget it. He's rolling"
Hervoyel
BUENO!
Every year when we lose a bunch of QB's and have to bring in guys with little or no time in our system who then end up looking really good in the dumbed down "thing" we slap together in a few days I ask myself this question.
If your system looks better when you throw 3/4 of it out the window and hand it to someone you haven't spent months teaching it to or making practice it then why exactly are you wasting your time with that system?
The reason, I think, is because teams will catch on after 3 or 4 games.
If you're only planning on using such & such at QB for 3 or 4 games, then you're right. No point trying to teach the whole thing.
Then again, if you have an athletic guy like Luck or Prescott or Wentz who appear to be able to process information faster than the 11 guys on the other side of the field, you can get away with dumbing down the offense a lot longer.
If you followed Andrew Luck's career, they've never tried to make him a pocket passer. They've always been comfortable letting him do what he does... last year he missed a lot of game due to injury. This year, he may not make the whole season.
Is it too late for him to actually learn an offense now?
jmo
'Cauze that's the only way to have a winning season, you see.
If you dumb it down too much, your "regular" QBs don't have a chance to be Mediocre.
You run the system to get to 6-7, 7-7.
Then you throw out an element surprise or two.
And pray.
TxnsJuggernaut
Veteran
Why should he have done that? Playing for those Texans made him a sitting duck open target. Every game was an opportunity for opposing defenses to feast on him.
There have been many young Qb's who had to play behind terrible offensive lines and they failed.
Copied from SFGate.com
All you really need to know about David Carr's NFL career can be learned from watching his second game.
That was back in 2002, back when the Houston Texans were just beginning their first year of existence, back when they were planning on building their entire franchise around David Carr. He took a terrible beating at the hands of the San Diego Chargers that day. A beating that became emblematic of Carr's career.
The Texans had made Carr the No. 1 pick of the 2002 draft, gave him a $60 million contract and pronounced him the NFL's next great thing. The Texans made him the poster boy for a franchise that was going to do things right.
Unfortunately, that's not how it turned out.
http://www.sfgate.com/sports/article/The-Texans-never-gave-David-Carr-a-chance-3196632.php
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This does bring up your point in regards to his seeming lack of passion but it also says any chance of him having passion was taken away by the orginization.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Damn we have found the ultimate Carr apologist. Seriously, why should he be dedicated to his trade? FFS he wouldn't learn even the simplest of things like not running OB behind the line of scrimmage. Sacks went from 43 to 22 with the transition from Carr to Schaub.
We're bringing back arguments from 2002
Damn... this team needs a win bad.
Damn... this team needs a win bad.
TxnsJuggernaut
Veteran
The NFL has had plenty of David Carrs in regards to being set up for failure. Of coarse the sacks went down under Schaub. Schaub didn't get thrust into the starting role as the savior of his team as a rooike behind a terrible offensive line. Too much pressure was put on David Carrs young shoulders from the start. The Cleveland Browns ruined several young Q's by doing to them what the Texans did to David Carr. Let's face it while you call me a Schaub appoligist this team was terribly coached and thier was little to no talent for him to work with.
I may be a David Carr apologist but it is better than those of you who constantly make him the scapegoat for the Texans failures when he was the starter.
I will not say David Carr would have been the star everybody made him out to be coming out of college but I will say based on how his career was managed we will never for sure know what he could have been.
History will call him a bust but they will smile fondly on the rest of a joke our Texans were in the early years.
Lets face it, no matter who the Qb has been this orginization for the most part has been mediocre at best. That says more bad about the organization than it does any poor sap that gets to Qb this team.
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TxnsJuggernaut
Veteran
Just tired of people taking pot shots about a guy who has been gone for many years now. I guess there is no need to argue on his behalf but just the same there is no need to bring his name up anymore.
Who are all these other David Carr's? Who else was the #1 overall that refused to put in the work and film study to learn enough for the nfl game to slow down? Who else had his family at the facility getting in the coaches way? Name some names
Hervoyel
BUENO!
David Carr didn't pick himself 1-1.
He also didn't put in the work to try and justify being picked there either. Even he admits he didn't do what he needed to do to be successful. From all reports he is a really nice guy who is a wonderful father, husband, neighbor, and friend. A genuinely good person.
He wasn't going to succeed anywhere in the NFL that didn't let him sit and grow up for a few years though and maybe not even then.
He also didn't put in the work to try and justify being picked there either. Even he admits he didn't do what he needed to do to be successful. From all reports he is a really nice guy who is a wonderful father, husband, neighbor, and friend. A genuinely good person.
He wasn't going to succeed anywhere in the NFL that didn't let him sit and grow up for a few years though and maybe not even then.
If he would have been drafted to a team that could have let him sit two or three years and lots of grooming, he might have made a decent backup... cuz that's as hard as he was gonna work for
Hervoyel
BUENO!
Maybe. One never knows. If he had time to mature and a guy playing in front of him on the depth chart who was a grinder-type role model he might have learned the work ethic he needed. The physical tools were all there so it was all about him being in a place where he could get his mind right.
I'm not going to say it was impossible. Unlikely but not impossible.
chicagotexan2
Easterby = Little Finger/Cal = Fredo Corleone
In your first post you acknowledge and defend him for not putting in the long hours enhance his skill sets mainly his ability to read a defense and now you're saying there was too much pressure on him to succeed? Too much pressure? This was a grown man who's job was to play QB. That job over all others in sports requires the most out of that person. I'm not making him out to be the scapegoat. I liked Carr and I wanted him to be good. From all appearances is a genuinely decent man but that doesn't mean he didn't share responsibility for the lack of success this team has had.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
He wasn't lazy or a partier, things which can be given up "for the better." He was religious with an early family. That's a whole different matter and one unlikely to get reprioritized. It's not "for the better." Not impossible but unlikely.
chicagotexan2
Easterby = Little Finger/Cal = Fredo Corleone
And I get tired of people conveniently glossing over fact just because someone is a nice guy. Hell I really wanted Kubiak to succeed as a Houstonian and he is a very good man himself but he had some successes and some failures (some his own fault some were on the lousy GM) but that doesn't mean I can't bring myself to realize that he could've been better. All that being said, I was happy for him and Wade winning the Super Bowl last season. I wish they could've done it here but oh well here we are.
I will say it is interesting to watch how good his little brother is playing. Derek is also a religious man and had a family early but he is doing really really well with the Raiders. I bet he learned a lot from his brother or maybe he's just in a better situation or maybe he's just way better. Regardless I know I was one of the fools that was not keen on drafting him, but I really wish we had.
I just don't think he had the want to. He wasn't passionate about football. He was more wrapped up in family. Not saying that's bad, just not what you want from a qb.
EVOLVIST
Kid A
Then opposing defenses aren't doing a very good job at catching up, because that whole Vikings' offense has been dumbed down for Sam Bradford, playing to his strengths. They are NOT running Norv Turner's complete set. I can't attest to the validity or not, but didn't they say during the game that they simplified the playcalling down to single words that Norv would call down to Bradford?
The season is still young, so opposing teams might catch up to the Vikes; nevertheless, I believe it would behoove the Texans to take a similar approach.