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All Encompassing Vick Thread

ObsiWan said:
Excellent perspective.
At the risk of offending the more delicate pet owners here's the deal...

Dogs die every day at the pound or get run over in the streets by cars.

So should the workers at the pound or the guy who hits a dog with his car go to jail?
No.

and if you take your own dog out in the woods and put a bullet in his head because you're tired of him crapping on your carpet or are just tired of feeding him, no one will hunt you down and jail you for it.

So don't get it twisted. Vick went to jail because of the gambling operation. The press (and the prosecution) used the dog torture angle to boost ratings and to skew the jury. If all they had on Vick was the dog-killing angle, he wouldn't have done more than a few months... If that.
Click to expand...

Big difference. If you believe only half of what is said, he removed teeth from female dogs and let other dogs kill them for training. Thats a little worse than getting euthanizing. Hung by the neck till dead. A little worse than getting euthenised. Vick did some really horrible things. My opinion is he shouldn't be allowed back, but I'm just glad there is no way he'll be a Texan. I personally guarantee I won't cheer for any team that signs him.
 
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ObsiWan said:
Excellent perspective.
At the risk of offending the more delicate pet owners here's the deal...

Dogs die every day at the pound or get run over in the streets by cars.

So should the workers at the pound or the guy who hits a dog with his car go to jail?
No.

and if you take your own dog out in the woods and put a bullet in his head because you're tired of him crapping on your carpet or are just tired of feeding him, no one will hunt you down and jail you for it.

So don't get it twisted. Vick went to jail because of the gambling operation. The press (and the prosecution) used the dog torture angle to boost ratings and to skew the jury. If all they had on Vick was the dog-killing angle, he wouldn't have done more than a few months... If that.
Click to expand...

I know this thread is going to explode so I'll get out while I can. But before I do I want to say that the bolded above is such a horrible comparison, I don't know what to say. Pounds euthanize dogs because their is no room and no one wants them. It's humane. Someone hitting a dog with their car is an accident. A person training dogs to kill each other by brutalizing them with devices and having rape stands, etc is sadistic and effed up. Sorry your argument holds ZERO weight.

People need to realize that it is more than killing dogs. It is an illegal act...not only an illegal act but one where he headed it. It was a major gambling operation also. Stop looking at one act. You can't just break laws that are in the books and then make excuses. It's the equivalent of assaulting a person and then saying people get bruised falling down every day, what's the difference.

As for Vick, he will get another chance and I'm fine with it. If he can stay clean the NFL platform will give him the chance to show he made right and to speak out against what he did. If he screws up, the fall will be even steeper and his chance for any menaingful work will be out the window.
 
ObsiWan said:
Excellent perspective.
At the risk of offending the more delicate pet owners here's the deal...

Dogs die every day at the pound or get run over in the streets by cars.

So should the workers at the pound or the guy who hits a dog with his car go to jail?
No.

and if you take your own dog out in the woods and put a bullet in his head because you're tired of him crapping on your carpet or are just tired of feeding him, no one will hunt you down and jail you for it.

So don't get it twisted. Vick went to jail because of the gambling operation. The press (and the prosecution) used the dog torture angle to boost ratings and to skew the jury. If all they had on Vick was the dog-killing angle, he wouldn't have done more than a few months... If that.
Click to expand...

I know a couple of others have already touched on your post here, but it is such a horrible post on so many levels that I will reply as well.

Yes, dogs die everyday. So that makes it ok to kill them in your head?

You know, now that I think of it, people die everyday too. So the act of killing people might as well go unpunished because as Obsiwan so delicately put it, they die everyday.

And yes, nobody is going to track you down if you take your dog ALONE to the woods and shoot it. I would assume because nobody is there to see it, or knows about your dog... But lets see how long you stay out of jail if you just start blasting dogs in front of your neighbors.

You should probably stop posting in this thread because you are way off base here...
 
http://www.profootballtalk.com/2009...-a-second-chance-for-michael-vick/#more-14435

This is rather lengthly so I have just posted the link - but the last paragraph sums it up pretty clearly, I think.

Quote:

This isn’t about whether Vick has paid his debt to society; it’s about whether he can be trusted to reverse years of horrible decision, and to represent the NFL and the team that gives him another opportunity to play pro football with the kind of dignity and honor that he rarely displayed during his six seasons in the NFL.
 
Grams said:
http://www.profootballtalk.com/2009...-a-second-chance-for-michael-vick/#more-14435

This is rather lengthly so I have just posted the link - but the last paragraph sums it up pretty clearly, I think.

Quote:

This isn’t about whether Vick has paid his debt to society; it’s about whether he can be trusted to reverse years of horrible decision, and to represent the NFL and the team that gives him another opportunity to play pro football with the kind of dignity and honor that he rarely displayed during his six seasons in the NFL.
Click to expand...


In line with one of my previous posts, Vick USED the NFL to further his perversity. He should not be allowed to use the NFL to solve its consequences. From the piece linked above:

The facts that we know right now paint a picture that is as simple as it is barbaric.

Mike Vick entered the NFL with an agenda. Not to revolutionize the quarterback position, but to devote a chunk of his newfound riches to the establishment of a secret dogfighting operation.

By all appearances, it was a long-term goal shared mutually by Vick and his clique. Once one of them made enough money to finance the endeavor, they’d begin fighting dogs.

Sure, this abomination can be shrugged off by folks who now hope to witness one of the more dramatic redemption stories of our time as a “mistake” flowing from a combination of cultural dynamics and an inability by Vick to separate from a network of friends into whom God neglected to add souls.

But the reality is that Vick knew, on every day of his life, that his actions were illegal.
Click to expand...
 
Hervoyel said:
I disagree. I hope we do see him in the NFL again and I hope that he spends a lot of his time working to prevent the kind of abuse he was convicted of. I'd like nothing better than to see him finish paying his debt to society and turn his life around while doing something positive with it.

I wasn't even much of fan of his actually so I don't "miss" Michael Vick in the NFL. I just think that if you transgress against society then you should be allowed the chance to pay your debt and try to rebuild your life, preferably while incorporating whatever lesson you learned in the process. If you didn't learn anything then it's no big deal to let him resume his life anyway. He'll screw it up again shortly if he didn't learn his lesson.
Click to expand...

Great post and I totally agree IN HIS CASE, but not everyone elses. He should be able to come back if you ask me and try to rebuild his career. I don't think we'll ever see him as a full time starting NFL QB ever again though. He'll most likely either be a back up QB on a team, or move into the slot as a WR and wild cat formation kind of guy.
 
well i didnt want this to turn into an animal cruelity thread... i just wanted to say he was a great football player and is extremely talented. and i miss watching him play cause he was exciting.. and know one in the league can even compare to him....
 
dunta23 said:
and know one in the league can even compare to him....
Click to expand...

Well could you clarify this statement please? What do you mean no one in the league could even compare to him? He wasn't a good QB at all in his last season or really in his last two seasons? Schaub was practically at the point where he was about to become the starter and Vick had been regressing his last 3 seasons. I'm not sure what you were talking about as far as no one being able to compare to him, but from a QB stand point that would be a pretty laughable statement. Now maybe you meant from a big time play maker's stand point, then I do agree that he was exciting, but only when he would run the ball. His arm was awful and he had really poor accuracy.
 
i mean excitment wise.... there adrian peterson... but i meant in terms of being an exciting QB to watch i didnt say he was a good qb lol
 
dunta23 said:
i mean excitment wise.... there adrian peterson... but i meant in terms of being an exciting QB to watch i didnt say he was a good qb lol
Click to expand...

Well that is what I was asking? I figured that was what you meant, but wasn't sure. He is exciting when he runs the ball, but not as a passer because he is a really poor passer.

That is why if he is moved to WR he could be exciting to watch, but I don't think that he's going to have the same types of wheels that he had before.
 
Grams said:
This isn’t about whether Vick has paid his debt to society; it’s about whether he can be trusted to reverse years of horrible decision, and to represent the NFL and the team that gives him another opportunity to play pro football with the kind of dignity and honor that he rarely displayed during his six seasons in the NFL.
Click to expand...
Well, I guess there is only one way to find out...you're right though, this isn't about whether he's paid his debt to society...that's over with and done.

CloakNNNdagger said:
In line with one of my previous posts, Vick USED the NFL to further his perversity. He should not be allowed to use the NFL to solve its consequences. From the piece linked above:
Click to expand...
That piece is a load of crap which is something you don't post often.

Vick played in the NFL just to start a dogfighting ring? I guess he was making more money fighting than playing? Doubtful, anyway that's like saying a doctor goes to work to finance his arson squad. Or a janitor goes to work to finance a network of pick-pockets. Totally unrelated.
 
Goldensilence said:
Do you own a dog?
Click to expand...

I really dont think that should factor into a 2nd chance. Trust me, I was outraged when the story broke. I breed Dobermans and am now even more careful about who I sell them to because I dont want them to be used for dog fighting. But, again, if the guy has reformed, give him a chance to prove himself.

Being a Falcons fan as well as Texans, I can say that I dont want him on either of those two teams though. Guy is good for some highlights, but he really isnt that good of a QB overall. Just my opinion.
 
TimeKiller said:
Well, I guess there is only one way to find out...you're right though, this isn't about whether he's paid his debt to society...that's over with and done.


That piece is a load of crap which is something you don't post often.

Vick played in the NFL just to start a dogfighting ring? I guess he was making more money fighting than playing? Doubtful, anyway that's like saying a doctor goes to work to finance his arson squad. Or a janitor goes to work to finance a network of pick-pockets. Totally unrelated.
Click to expand...

I very much appreciate your "kind" commentary on my "load of crap" post. I believe, though, that there is quite a difference between what I posted ("Vick USED the NFL to further his perversity") and your translation of "Vick played in the NFL just to start a dogfighting ring." Meanwhile, I stand by my "load of crap" post.
 
CloakNNNdagger said:
I very much appreciate your "kind" commentary on my "load of crap" post. I believe, though, that there is quite a difference between what I posted ("Vick USED the NFL to further his perversity") and your translation of "Vick played in the NFL just to start a dogfighting ring." Meanwhile, I stand by my "load of crap" post.
Click to expand...

:goodpost:

Yeah, I remember hearing that Vick was always obsessed with dog fighting. He most definitely used his pro football money to fund his goal. What happens when you give him that money again, will he do the same thing, just hide it better.
 
ObsiWan said:
So don't get it twisted. Vick went to jail because of the gambling operation. The press (and the prosecution) used the dog torture angle to boost ratings and to skew the jury. If all they had on Vick was the dog-killing angle, he wouldn't have done more than a few months... If that.
Click to expand...

This is completely backwards. Vick was not indicted or tried on any gambling charges. In fact, the gambling has not been addressed at all and leaves Goodell in a position to lifetime ban Vick from the NFL.
 
dunta23 said:
well i didnt want this to turn into an animal cruelity thread... i just wanted to say he was a great football player and is extremely talented. and i miss watching him play cause he was exciting.. and know one in the league can even compare to him....
Click to expand...

You know what would be exciting?

Tie Vick to a pole in a ring and let 3 hungry and abused pitbulls have their way with him.

Now we're talking Primetime!
 
Texan_Bill said:
:spit: I figured you would be!! :smiliedance:
Click to expand...

Vick, Favre and TO are the primary reason's I haven't watched my news (NFLTA) lately. I understand it's the off season and all, but damn, can't they limit the amount of time they spend on a subject? I mean, just give an update on the situation each show and move on. It pisses me off!
 
Goodell defined today what he means by "REMORSE":

(1) did he learn anything?

[Vick response: Payback's a mutha!]


(2) does he regret what happened?

[Vick response: Does a bear **** in the woods?...........If I had it all to do over, I wouldn't get caught]


(3) does he plan to try make positive changes in the future?

[Vick response: I will avoid being falsely acused of spreading things.......I will no longer touch or sit on any more filthy toilet seats before doing the dirty.]
 
CloakNNNdagger said:
Goodell defined today what he means by "REMORSE":

(1) did he learn anything?

[Vick response: Payback's a mutha!]


(2) does he regret what happened?

[Vick response: Does a bear **** in the woods?...........If I had it all to do over, I wouldn't get caught]


(3) does he plan to try make positive changes in the future?

[Vick response: I will avoid being falsely acused of spreading things.......I will no longer touch or sit on any more filthy toilet seats before doing the dirty.]
Click to expand...

What was his response when asked about false aliases, like Ron Mexico?
 
ObsiWan said:
Excellent perspective.
At the risk of offending the more delicate pet owners here's the deal...

Dogs die every day at the pound or get run over in the streets by cars.

So should the workers at the pound or the guy who hits a dog with his car go to jail?
No.

and if you take your own dog out in the woods and put a bullet in his head because you're tired of him crapping on your carpet or are just tired of feeding him, no one will hunt you down and jail you for it.

So don't get it twisted. Vick went to jail because of the gambling operation. The press (and the prosecution) used the dog torture angle to boost ratings and to skew the jury. If all they had on Vick was the dog-killing angle, he wouldn't have done more than a few months... If that.
Click to expand...


Wow. Unbelieveable...
 
I like Vick, and hope he gets back in. I see Seattle and Cincy as possible landing spots for him, maybe buffalo as well.
 
Maybe more dipshits will give me reddies for saying that he should be able to resume his life.

He f'ed up...he paid the price the law set...he's done. Are you really someone that can point at anyone else? Must be great to be perfect.

Leonard Little is sill playing. THAT is crap!

And I still point at the drunk judge's daughter that killed her passenger...sued the guy she RAN INTO the back of...bragged at the ER her "Daddy is judge!"...got a bogus punishment and was unprecedently released from it.

But a dude betting on and capping dawgs is a pariah.

Yep...whatever.
 
Roc Hoover said:
Maybe more dipshits will give me reddies for saying that he should be able to resume his life.

He f'ed up...he paid the price the law set...he's done. Are you really someone that can point at anyone else? Must be great to be perfect.

Leonard Little is sill playing. THAT is crap!

And I still point at the drunk judge's daughter that killed her passenger...sued the guy she RAN INTO the back of...bragged at the ER her "Daddy is judge!"...got a bogus punishment and was unprecedently released from it.

But a dude betting on and capping dawgs is a pariah.

Yep...whatever.
Click to expand...

Why do people focus so much on the gambling? Its not that he killed dogs, its the way he went about it. Theres a difference in ending a life and taking pleasure in torturing a life away. Its the same reason that someone who kills their spouse after they catch them cheating is punished differently than someone who kills and tortures their victims in premeditated means. Intent is important in our legal system

Who cares about other circumstances? The examples you gave are just reasons that Vick's time in jail was a good thing. Too many people get away with too much crap. Everyone should be held accountable to the same standards. There were laws written, punishments outlined. Vick broke those laws, and was punished according to the outlined manner.

Do I think he should be allowed back? Yup. He paid his debt to society, I think its fair to give him a second chance.

Would I as an owner take him? No way in hell. Football is about selling your team, and I wouldn't want a PR disaster like that.
 
Roc Hoover said:
He f'ed up...he paid the price the law set...he's done.
Click to expand...

He hasn't paid the price set under the collective bargaining agreement for the gambling offenses which can be up to lifetime ban.

Leonard Little is sill playing. THAT is crap!
Click to expand...

Little was a one time offender. Little different than an almost decade long multi-state criminal enterprise.

Having said that, I have no objection if Goodell doesn't further punish him but I doubt owners are going to line up to get him and I don't want him on the Texans (but that is because he isn't a very good QB).
 
infantrycak said:
He hasn't paid the price set under the collective bargaining agreement for the gambling offenses which can be up to lifetime ban.



Little was a one time offender. Little different than an almost decade long multi-state criminal enterprise.

Having said that, I have no objection if Goodell doesn't further punish him but I doubt owners are going to line up to get him and I don't want him on the Texans (but that is because he isn't a very good QB).
Click to expand...

So killing a man carries less weight then if you had a gambling operation?
 
infantrycak said:
He hasn't paid the price set under the collective bargaining agreement for the gambling offenses which can be up to lifetime ban.



Little was a one time offender. Little different than an almost decade long multi-state criminal enterprise.

Having said that, I have no objection if Goodell doesn't further punish him but I doubt owners are going to line up to get him and I don't want him on the Texans (but that is because he isn't a very good QB).
Click to expand...

No.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/rams/2004-04-26-little-charged_x.htm
 
LonerATO said:
So killing a man carries less weight then if you had a gambling operation?
Click to expand...

I think theres a few differences.

1) Leonard was convicted of manslaughter, not murder. Again, intent
2) Gambling in professional sports is viewed as one of the most serious crimes possible
3) Leonards conviction was convicted in 1998. Different commishioner with a different set of priorities.

If Little was convicted today, he probably would be banned by the commish as well. We will ahve to wait and see what happens with Stallworth. Same crime, different time period. Heres to hoping that the commisioner regards manslaughter as serious enough to consider a serious punishment
 
LonerATO said:
So killing a man carries less weight then if you had a gambling operation?
Click to expand...

So all killing is now equal? Gambling in any form or connection is all equal?--and I guess you want to ignore the whole dog thing. Being a single offense is part of the equation as is the severity of the harm, just as having a long standing, intentional, multi-state, criminal enterprise is part of the equation. Try comparing the potential prison sentences and you will see how the laws applied to each weigh them. Involuntary manslaughter carried a max of 7 years. Vick could have been sentenced to more than two decades.

swtbound07 said:
No.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/rams/2004-04-26-little-charged_x.htm
Click to expand...

gtexan02 said:
I think you missed the word "was" in his post...when he was convicted in 1998 it was his first offense
Click to expand...

Leonard Little was convicted a single time. He was charged a second time and acquitted in trial. He is therefore a one time offender.
 
infantrycak said:
So all killing is now equal? Gambling in any form or connection is all equal?--and I guess you want to ignore the whole dog thing. Being a single offense is part of the equation as is the severity of the harm, just as having a long standing, intentional, multi-state, criminal enterprise is part of the equation. Try comparing the potential prison sentences and you will see how the laws applied to each weigh them. Involuntary manslaughter carried a max of 7 years. Vick could have been sentenced to more than two decades.
Click to expand...
In support of Infantrycak's assertion. Just a direct out take of the CBA contract agreement signed by all NFL players.:
[LINK TO THE ENTIRE CONTRACT]

15. INTEGRITY OF GAME. Player recognizes the detriment to the League and professional football that would result from impairment of public confidence in the honest and orderly conduct of NFL games or the integrity and good character of NFL players. Player therefore acknowledges his awareness that if he accepts a bribe or agrees to throw or fix an NFL game; fails to promptly report a bribe offer or an attempt to throw or fix an NFL game; bets on an NFL game; knowingly associates with gamblers or gambling activity; uses or provides other players with stimulants or other drugs for the purpose of attempting to enhance on-field performance; or is guilty of any other form of conduct reasonably judged by the League Commissioner to be detrimental to the League or professional football, the Commissioner will have the right, but only after giving Player the opportunity for a hearing at which he may be represented by counsel of his choice, to fine Player in a reasonable amount; to suspend Player for a period certain or indefinitely; and/or to terminate this contract.
Click to expand...
 
A resounding "vote of confidence" for Romo in response to if Jerry Jones is considering Vick for the Cowboys. If I were Romo, I would be so grateful for such an endorsement by his boss:

His response to a question about whether the Cowboys might be interested in Mike Vick was quick and simple: "Romo is our guy."
Click to expand...
 
Vick has a right to rebuild his life.

It just might not include football.

Why is it assumed if he cant play football there is no way he can be a productive member of society?

He could be a productive member of society making $10 a hour working construction?
 
steelbtexan said:
Vick has a right to rebuild his life.

It just might not include football.

Why is it assumed if he cant play football there is no way he can be a productive member of society?

He could be a productive member of society making $10 a hour working construction?
Click to expand...

I didn't realize that salaries were that low in construction. If so, I don't see how $10/hr, $80/day, $400/week, $1600/month less social security and tax is a productive member of society. Somehow I don't see poverty and productivity being partners. Surely, he could exist, but that's about it.
 
Though I am not one that would like to see Vick back in the NFL, especially without at least a year of staying totally out of trouble in an “uncontrolled environment,” I do believe that there is one way that Vick will feel the total impact of consequences that cannot even slightly compare to his incarceration. If he is reinstated, one of the following scenarios would be very likely: 1)He is rejected outright by all teams or 2)He is signed for peanuts and, quite possibly as a pseudo “wildcat” or non-QB and/or 3)He embarrasses himself as a total bust in whatever capacity he returns. I believe that then, and only then, will Vick truly appreciate the magnitude of his poor choices.
 
ChrisG said:
:foottap: Vick should burn in hell...i hope we never see him in the NFL again. Right now he is making 10$ an hour working in construction. He got an offer for an Albany NY Arena Football team for like 200 a game (so 200$ a week) LMAO
Click to expand...

Laugh all you want...Vick will be back in the league and he won't be making $200 a week. Its funny how most of the NFL players and coaches and the owners all say he deserves another chance and alot of silly hating fans don't think he does. Man stop hating on the man because he made a stupid mistake. You , me and every other person on the planet has screwed up whether we were caught or not. Let it go.
 
infantrycak said:
He hasn't paid the price set under the collective bargaining agreement for the gambling offenses which can be up to lifetime ban.



Little was a one time offender. Little different than an almost decade long multi-state criminal enterprise.

Having said that, I have no objection if Goodell doesn't further punish him but I doubt owners are going to line up to get him and I don't want him on the Texans (but that is because he isn't a very good QB).
Click to expand...
Leonard little a one time offender..lol. He killed a human being. Little had many DUIs before he finally killed someone.
 
I wonder if race plays in on the way the Vick haters view this whole thing? Just wondering because this is still America.:foottap:
 
ubecool454 said:
Man stop hating on the man because he made a stupid mistake. You , me and every other person on the planet has screwed up whether we were caught or not. Let it go.
Click to expand...

This was just not A stupid mistake. He ran an illegal operation for several years with gambling invoived. Then lied to the commissioner's face that he was not involved in anything illegal.

I think he still needs to be suspended - at least for a year, as I do not think that the indefinite suspension while he was in jail should not count as he could not have played anyway.

If after that year's suspension, some team want to give him a shot at a comeback - fine. As long as it is not the Texans.
 
I do not care what color Vick is. He could be sky blue pink with purple polkadots for that matter.

He ran an illegal operation. He KNEW it was illegal when he started it. He LIED to the commissioner's face and said he was not involved in any way. I think he still needs to serve a suspension.

As to players with DUI's. They also need to be suspended - at least 6 games the first time. A year the second and for life for a 3rd.

Those that drink, drive and kill someone needs to be banned from the NFL for life - even if not convicted, but based on the facts. I don't care if it is Manning or Stallworth. You drink, you drive, you kill someone - you no longer play football in the NFL. Only then will these guys with DUI's look up and take notice and maybe change their actions.
 
Grams said:
This was just not A stupid mistake. He ran an illegal operation for several years with gambling invoived. Then lied to the commissioner's face that he was not involved in anything illegal.
Click to expand...


I'm all for giving second chances and dude has served his time, but he's damn lucky the Attorney General didn't go after him on RICO statutes...
 
ubecool454 said:
I wonder if race plays in on the way the Vick haters view this whole thing? Just wondering because this is still America.:foottap:
Click to expand...

Looky, looky, it's the race card again. Imagine f--kin that !

If it makes you feel any better, I'm white and I think Ryan Leaf is pushing Vick for the recent dumbass award.
 
ubecool454 said:
Laugh all you want...Vick will be back in the league and he won't be making $200 a week. Its funny how most of the NFL players and coaches and the owners all say he deserves another chance and alot of silly hating fans don't think he does. Man stop hating on the man because he made a stupid mistake. You , me and every other person on the planet has screwed up whether we were caught or not. Let it go.
Click to expand...

Sure, we've all screwed up............but very few of us, I would confidently say, on that scale, whether legally or morally. I personally resent your all-inclusive brush stroke. You can definitely cross ME off of that short list. I'd be curious to have a gut check count from the members of this board................BTW, since you have put yourself on that list, maybe someone should look more closely into YOUR sordid past.
 
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