It's what the coaches use.
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Will the Texans get desperate in their search of a GM and HC?
- Thread starter Mangler
- Start date
It's what the coaches use.
maverick512000
Hall of Fame
Are you trying to say that a new scheme will fix all of Watson’s issues?
OptimisticTexan
2024 / Rebuilding Block 4 After Playoffs / Texans
Are you guys saying Watson's contract couldn't ever be re-negotiated or extended to help with the cap situation going forward? Has Watson stepped to the mic and stated that he'll never extend or renegotiate his current contract for the betterment of the team if it means adding another 4-5 years?
Watson's contract was not the issue since he's the teams current "Franchise QB" and got the going rate. That aside, Cal ducked up royally when the Texans let OB play GM.
Contracts killing the Texans: Da Johnson, Mercilus, McKinney, Martin, and Roby. I would include Watt but he's essentially the defense. If he had any kind of real help on the DL....we might be seeing a really dominant Watt again. Duck it!!!! Anyone collecting a paycheck on defense is considered a bad contract.
Again, Watson's contract isn't the albatross since it has great wiggle room built in for a longer term reward.
Watson's contract was not the issue since he's the teams current "Franchise QB" and got the going rate. That aside, Cal ducked up royally when the Texans let OB play GM.
Contracts killing the Texans: Da Johnson, Mercilus, McKinney, Martin, and Roby. I would include Watt but he's essentially the defense. If he had any kind of real help on the DL....we might be seeing a really dominant Watt again. Duck it!!!! Anyone collecting a paycheck on defense is considered a bad contract.
Again, Watson's contract isn't the albatross since it has great wiggle room built in for a longer term reward.
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Texansballer74
The Marine
Are you not seeing a difference already? You are acting like this kid isn’t a student of the game. Heck yeah a new scheme and better darn coach will help Watson’s growth.
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It tells as complete a story as we can get outside of actually being in the huddle.
Its a top down view of the entire play , in a single frame.
Texansballer74
The Marine
So it tells you who’s the quarterbacks first read is?
Does it tell you when a defense shows a cover 2 then switches to a cover 3?
You want to prolong the pain? Great
Instead of a long 8 yrs (4 previous and the coming 4) you want the true lost decade up to 12 yrs. There will be no Championship's, people could learn from history instead of repeating it.
You can see "what direction" he's looking .... gives you some insight into what the read progression was.
You see the entire offense and entire defense in a single frame - Its much easier to see coverages in this view than from the field or from any other view for that matter.
Of course, it's like video game view. It's so much better than the telecast view.
Also, side note, CBS image quality is crap here, does anyone else have this problem?
It doesn't matter how many views one has.
As Tony Dungy (and at least one other coach) once explained, there's still guesswork for the viewer (including Dungy himself).
For example, nobody knows for sure where a receiver is supposed to take his stem on a medium deep IN route; it could be 15, 16, 17, 18 yards whatever.
Or perhaps he should have ran an adjustment and come back to the ball, depending on coverage.
The viewer is not the one that designs/calls the play.
He can only guess at what the play entails (often wrongly).
A good read can be found here:
www.google.com
As Tony Dungy (and at least one other coach) once explained, there's still guesswork for the viewer (including Dungy himself).
For example, nobody knows for sure where a receiver is supposed to take his stem on a medium deep IN route; it could be 15, 16, 17, 18 yards whatever.
Or perhaps he should have ran an adjustment and come back to the ball, depending on coverage.
The viewer is not the one that designs/calls the play.
He can only guess at what the play entails (often wrongly).
A good read can be found here:
On Option Routes, Sight Adjustments, Hot Routes, & the Complexities of NFL Offenses
The tough job of an NFL receiver.
www.google.com
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First and foremost, I agree with a lot of what you’re saying, and I’ve said repeatedly he has to improve it. I’ve found myself yelling for him to run or get rid of it on multiple occasions. He’s a gunslinger and too often looks for the big play, he’s got to improve. I agree he contributes to his sacks, and they can kill drives. So do presnap penalties (a big problem last year) and runs for no gains on early downs for little no gain don’t help either (a problem this year)
I don’t think seeing things is as simple on the all 22 as you’re making it out to be. A while ago someone posted some clips from an all 22 view from the Buffal game and it was interesting seeing the different responses from posters to the same clip
In general I don’t think the pass blocking is adequate, but I’m picky on this. If I’m the GM. I’m building my teams around the QB and the trenches on both sides of the ball. While he doesn’t always have to run for his life, I don’t see consistent clean pockets either. This goes back to the all 22 questions if a guy breaks open, does Watson have a clean pocket or is he having to avoid pressure at that time. Is there someone in his face. To me it’s not all about sacks, what’s the environment he’s operating out of in the pocket
I know that guys get open, but do we have guys wide open in the 2.5 sec time frame that everyone wants him to get rid of the ball in?
Additionally former QBs have called out the system, play calling and schemes for not helping a young QB. You have to factor that in as well. Why would they make this up. I’ve heard Steorner get on Watson for some of the things you’ve mentioned but I’ve also heard him rail on OB for the things I’m talking about.
To be clear - I'm in no way defending OB.
I wanted him gone a year before the "Fire OB" thread was made. I was sporting pink soap after the playoff loss to the Colts.
I hated the run up the gut on 1st down so often putting your offense in bad down and distance regularly.
I think he was part of the problem - Just not this part of the problem.
On the issue of pass blocking - I think it's "Adequate" and here's why - When Watson is getting the ball out quickly he's not getting hit , sacked or pressured - except for those rare instances where someone just flat out goes matador missing an assignment or getting blown up.
Just look at the last two weeks for confirmation where he had three combined sacks in those two games when he hadn't had a single game prior to that of less than 3.
Against Jax he got the ball out on average 2.6 seconds. That was the best number he'd posted in 18 months in that aspect. Against Tennessee , particularly in the second half , he was doing much the same thing.
According to PFR he's been pressured on 26.5% of drop backs , yes that number is a bit high but he's responsible for some of them himself - He compares favorably to the two QB's in the game most like him in Russell Wilson (27.6%) and Lamar Jackson (24.1%) but very unfavorably to guys like Brady (15%) , Brees (13.6%) and neither of those cats has been over 18.5% in the last 3 years.
No , comprehending the all22 isn't all that simple , you have to understand route concepts as well as coverage concepts ... but that's not something you are going to learn watching on TV either where you are generally "following the ball". You don't see the scheme in those traditional views.
As Bill Walsh said of "coaches film" You have to understand the play to evaluate the player ....
Basically If you don't understand the play , you have no idea what the player is suppose to be doing.
maverick512000
Hall of Fame
No I'm not seeing much difference, we beat a team we should have beaten and lost to a team we were expected to lose against. And no I don't give credit for it being a close game as there were lots of "bad" teams that beat top tier teams this last week and in some cases beat them badly. They didn't need to take comfort in the fact it was a close game. If we beat GB then I might start to see a difference because they are playing good football and they will be pissed after their loss to the Bucs.
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maverick512000
Hall of Fame
So wait people sitting on this forum going on about how the scheme is bad, the blocking is bad, guys aren't getting open, etc. is more valid then actually watching the bird's eye view and seeing the play as it develops? Well thats a creative argument if nothing else. If the QB can only go with his first read and isn't looking for anybody that can be open then thats on the QB. If the defense switches to a cover 3 then that means someone is open and if the QB can't make that adjustment and find that open guy then thats on the QB. Yes its easy to say and hard to do but then you don't hand out $160 million dollar contracts to jobs that are easy to do. You can spin it all you want but it is right there on the tape that Watson often misses open guys in the short field and almost always targets the guys in the deep field. When Hopkins was here he would often throw it to a double covered Hopkins vs finding that guy not covered or creating distance from his coverage. You can call me a "Watson hater" all you want but facts are the facts and no amount of spin or justification will change them.
banned1976
sleeper mode
What is this thread about? Reading from page four to seven I had to scroll up to the top to remind myself this isn’t one of the several Watson threads.
Maybe this thread was one too many on HC/GM positions. My main thought right now on this subject is for ownership to wait until the offseason. Don’t hire someone sitting on their couch right now.
Maybe this thread was one too many on HC/GM positions. My main thought right now on this subject is for ownership to wait until the offseason. Don’t hire someone sitting on their couch right now.
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maverick512000
Hall of Fame
Making a lot of assumptions there, could Watson do it yeah he could but why would he? Oh I know you'll throw out things like to help the team and because he wants to win but history of big money QB contracts say otherwise. Rodgers never redid his contract even though it has hamstringed GB for years, Wilson hasn't redone his, Stanford's contract is the main reason Detroit can't get people, other than the fact its Detroit, Goff, Roethlisberger, Cousins, Wentz the list goes on and on. All teams whose QBs got paid and all teams that then struggled because there wasn't any other money to go around. Only QB in recent history who put his money where is mouth is when it came to winning is Brady.
Now don't get me wrong, I agree with you 100% that Texans are in far worse shape because Ob was doing his impression of a broken ATM machine and spitting out money but lets not pretend Watson's contract won't be a factor even after we trim the fat. If our plan for dealing with the cap hell we are in and will be for the foreseeable future is "Watson will renegotiate" then we are in big trouble.
Ask Calvin Johnson, Larry Fitzgerald, AJ Green, etc.
They are the go to guy for a reason.
It's not the only game film that the coaches use.
Besides, they have a better understanding of it than most, if not all of us.
maverick512000
Hall of Fame
FuzzyLogic
Mathematically Possible
Understand your point - but the coaches who view the All 22 also know what the play call was, what the play design was, and what they have coached the players to do.
We as outsiders can look at it and say jeez the WR on the left hash was wide open but if the play design was to have the QB start his reads on the right hash and read across the field - did he get time to get to his fourth read? Sure the guy was open but he was never supposed to get the ball by design.
Or to take DW out of it - our blocking, when we look at it (was it Tunsil in the last game at the goal line?) we think why did the LT block that guy that way and let the LB blow up the RB? Maybe because that's what he was told to do? So to us, he looks like an idiot but in their Monday meeting the coach tells the LT "great job, just like we coached it" and in the TE room, that guy is getting reamed for not being where he was supposed to be.
So no - watching the All 22 doesn't give the fan a full story, but it damn sure should give coaches/players the full story.
I'm a centrist on this particular issue - I blame everyone, no one in this organization should avoid scrutiny starts at ownership and ends at the laundry room guys ("dammit Tony we are 1 and 4 - get your bleach game straight, I want those white pants pristine when we get smeared on Sunday!")
At the moment no one, including EVERY player on the team, can avoid criticism.
Does Cal need to "own a frickin franchise, put your big boy pants on" better? Yes
Does the front office need to evaluate and acquire talent better? Yes
Do the coaches need to find schemes to maximize the talent they currently have? Yes
Do the players (ALL of the players) need to do better on the field? Yes
If we can't all agree on that, I don't know what to tell you.
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The team has nothing to do with it.
Mayfield, who Steelb think is a much better QB than Watson, is doing it with Hopkins.
maverick512000
Hall of Fame
Yeah the team does because none of those teams have had any success to speak of so clearly the targeting a franchise player all the time doesn't work. I agree every QB has their favorite target but when that's your only target its a problem.
As to your other point I'm going to assume you meant Murray and you are right that he has targeted Hopkins 61 times with the closes to that being Fitzgerald at 29 times. To compare, and yes I realize this is a bit unfair because it a full season vs 6 games but its all I have to work with, in 2019 Watson targeted Hopkins 150 times with the closes being Fuller at 71 and in 2018 he targeted Hopkins 163 times with the closest being Fuller at 45 times. You don't think other teams look at that and know who he is going to throw the ball to? Now I give Watson a ton of credit in that so far he has spread the ball around and his targets are almost equal so maybe that was OB's thinking of taking the security blanket away. Still was a very stupid move made far far worse by what we got for that blanket but it does show a bit of method to the madness.
By the way Cards aren't have that great a success with it either. They are 4-2 but look at the teams they beat and the only one that is even close to impressive is 49ers. The rest have been pretty much freebies with Washington, Cowgirls and the Jets. Also they have posted losses to Detroit and the Pants who aren't exactly great teams.
How about Tom Brady?
2007 - Randy Moss 160 targets
2009 - Wes Welker 162 targets
2011 - Welker 173 targets
2012 - Welker 174 targets
2013 - Eldeman 151 targets, the next guy Amendola gets 83
2014 - Even though Eldeman still gets the bulk (134 targets), Gronk emerged and get (131), a big number for a TE.
2015 - Gronk 120, next guy Eldeman 88
2016 - Edelman 159, next guy White 86 (a running back)
2018 - White, the RB, got the bulk 123 targets - Edelman missed 4 games
2019 - Edelman 153 targets
The concept of a go to guy is not a novelty.
Davante Adams was Rodger's go to guy for 2 years until the next guy emerges (Marques VS).
In 2018, he had nearly twice as many targets as the next guy.
In 2019, he had more than twice the number than that of the second receiver (127/60)
maverick512000
Hall of Fame
Look at you trying to spin number to support your argument. By the way love how you left out the "next guy" in 07 and 09 and maybe its because they next guy in 07 (Wes Welker) had 145 for a difference of 15 and was Randy Moss in 09 with 138 for a difference of 24. 2011 next guy had a difference of 48 and in 12 next guy had a difference of 44. Even last year when Brady had nobody but Edelman, White still was targeted 95 times. The year with the biggest difference (2016) was 73.
Now lets look at Watson. I won't count 2017 because he got hurt that year so starting with 2018.
2018 difference of 118 between Hopkins and Fuller
2019 difference of 79 between Hopkins and Fuller
True and that's the thing that always puzzles me about this forum.
The majority of us agree that Watson misses throws, he is not perfect and there are things he has to improve and do consistently to reach his potential.
The majority of us agree that the coaching, scheme, play calling, play design and progressions can be better or "tweaked" to maximize his strengths and minimize his weaknesses.
If the majority of us agree with the two statements above that it's a combination of player and coaching getting better, why do we get into these polarizing debates?
Look at how often Brees targets Thomas. The idea of having a HOF WR on the team and not targeting him is one of the silliest arguments on this forum. Look at every team with a great WR or TE and their targets are similar to Watson targeting Hopkins. What's also ridiculous about this argument. Hopkins' targets declined with Watson at QB.
maverick512000
Hall of Fame
Because its a question of how much of each of those contributes to the problem. Some of us think that Watson is a big contributor to his sack numbers and holding the ball to long and some believe that all he really needs is a new coach and scheme. As much as some members ride us as "OB defenders" or "Watson Haters" they have fully bought into Dabo's "This kid is Michael Jordan" line. Well he maybe but he has shown it yet and thats where the debate comes in.
Mostly semantics combined with boredom
maverick512000
Hall of Fame
Thats just it numbers say they are not similar. Certainly when a Hopkins or Gronk is targeted it makes the highlight reel but in reality the top tier QBs spread the ball around as much as possible. I agree fully if you have an all star WR they should be your go to but when they are in double coverage every game and you are still targeting them thats a problem. When all the other WRs have 100+ fewer targets thats a problem. Again he's doing much better this year at spreading it around because he doesn't have that safety net but I wish he had been doing that when Hopkins was still here. It also keeps defenses honest because they can't afford to ignore anybody on the field and they double up coverage at their own peril.
I'm going to need a little context here. Doesn't sound too family friendly.
Fuller played in only 7 games in 2018 and 11 games in 2019, and maybe healthy only during the first half of the year.
OptimisticTexan
2024 / Rebuilding Block 4 After Playoffs / Texans
You along with many other fans got to see Sunday's game and the job Watson did with the offense. Now, if Watson had a better OL and a bonafide running game......you're stating he wouldn't improve on his production? Heck throw in a top 20 defense and the Texans are easily enjoying a winning record at this time.
Texansballer74
The Marine
You’re not going to win that debate gentlemen. Some members only see it their way. They have the Bill O’Brien mentality and that’s,”its my way or the highway”! Now get to stepping! In my Martin Lawrence voice.
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Texansballer74
The Marine
QB can and do have different go to guy each year.
Targeting a RB or a TE that much also means that the QB and the HC/OC think they can best move the ball that way.
Look at Mr Do It All McCaffrey.
Gronk was no doubt the go to guy for Brady in 2011
www.google.com
AJ's best season was 9 TD, and Gronk doubled that number.
Targeting a RB or a TE that much also means that the QB and the HC/OC think they can best move the ball that way.
Look at Mr Do It All McCaffrey.
Gronk was no doubt the go to guy for Brady in 2011
Fantasy Football: The 50 highest scoring Fantasy seasons by a tight end
The Buccaneers are hoping Rob Gronkowski can rediscover the form that made him the best Fantasy tight end of all time.
www.google.com
AJ's best season was 9 TD, and Gronk doubled that number.
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It's somewhere in between, but mostly slanted toward BOB.
All I'm saying is that Watson play fairly well despite the HC not putting the players around him in position to succeed.
I've heard many HCs say that it takes all 11 players to make a play work.
And that is the biggest problem with BOB.
maverick512000
Hall of Fame
And see I agree with you that he played fairly well but the question comes in then how far can we get with fairly well. If you build a team right then fairly well can win it all but it takes a lot of things coming together. Plus teams that did it with fairly well didn't have a QB that takes up 15% of the cap. So unless we win in the next two years I'm not sure fairly well will be enough.
Ultimately it doesn't matter, you go to war with the army you have and for better or worse Texans have tied their future to Watson and I don't think thats a bad thing in and of itself. I just hope that the majority is right and OB was the biggest source of the problem but I'm afraid looking at it objectively that we will find he wasn't as much the problem as we thought.
Like I just reply to TK about how Kelly called all quick strike concepts in the first half of the Titans game.
I had also noticed that in the Jags game.
Also more passing on first down, which is a big difference from years past, especially in 2018.
You had Cobb asking for the short game after the Steelers game (I think), and now we're seeing it.
That is exactly what we need, at least for this year, IMO, and so I like what I've been seeing.
Corrosion has watched film with one of the best QB minds for over 2 decades. He knows what he is looking at.
And we have a football coach here (leebigeztx) who's been calling out OB for quite awhile.
You know him.
He's not critical of Watson anywhere near as much.
Your point is?
Corrosion has watched film for yrs with a current NFL coach on the offensive side of the ball. He knows what he's looking at.
Texansballer74
The Marine
Both you and Corrosion give great breakdowns. I can tell you’re passionate about the game. You also have patience like no other.
They still have different views regarding the matter.
SnakeEyes
Under NRG
Not yet he is not. Brady, Rogers, Brees, Mahomes are top. Then you have the Jackson, Watson, Wentz type guys.
I hope Watson can win the big one. But stated before by many experts he has to win some playoff games before you can say that he can perhaps do it.
Texansballer74
The Marine
Hey bud that’s your opinion which is cool and legit. But some people believe that he is.
At what point will you admit the possibility of being wrong? Yr 5, Yr 10? Probably never?