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Will the Texans get desperate in their search of a GM and HC?

Oh boy here we again with this cap crap. Corrosion see what you’ve done started. I guess Mahomas won’t be winning anymore Super Bowls . Oh wait this is only pertaining Watson
Actually he might not, I never said this only pertained to Watson I said no team has ever won the SB where the QB is 15% or more of the cap. Fun fact though as was pointed out earlier in the thread of Mahomes wins it again in the next two years or Watson does that statistic will still hold.
 

Corrosion

Idealist
Staff member
Flacco had a supporting cast dw does not.
Flacco is really a poor comparison ....

Flacco was ... Just a guy , a game manager. He needed (and got) "Everything" around him just right to get that superbowl. It was never argued that he was a "Top 5 QB" .... and he wasn't expected to be , he was expected not to make mistakes.

We've had that discussion around here for the last 2 years. Watson is the star attraction and expected to perform a such.

What irks me is that when everything else is blamed for his mistakes. We've heard for 2-3 years that it was all OB's fault , the play design was bad , the blocking was bad and on occasion it has been but very often the plays were there to be made and the blocking was adequate and the trigger man was slow on the trigger or misfired .... but its always someone else's fault.

Its quite possible that Watson just isn't that star attraction he's billed as. The more I watch all22 and break down plays / games , that possibility becomes more and more likely.

The views the TV shows are terrible .... The all22 is very unforgiving. I wish that were the default view on TV.

Its also possible that OB was the problem .... the two games since he's been gone Watson has taken those underneath routes instead of hanging onto it looking for the big play more often than not and running himself into unnecessary sacks / pressure.


Last week he was really good - got the ball out quickly , best game in 18 months in that regard with an average of 2.6 seconds per throw.

Today Watson was very good particularly in the second half. If he played like that every week , we wouldn't be having this discussion. But we've seen more of the former than the later in the last year and a half.
 

Corrosion

Idealist
Staff member
Actually he might not, I never said this only pertained to Watson I said no team has ever won the SB where the QB is 15% or more of the cap. Fun fact though as was pointed out earlier in the thread of Mahomes wins it again in the next two years or Watson does that statistic will still hold.
Actually the figure is 13.2% , that was Steve Young in the very first year of the salary cap era.
 

otisbean

Veteran
Contributor's Club
Flacco is really a poor comparison ....

Flacco was ... Just a guy , a game manager. He needed (and got) "Everything" around him just right to get that superbowl. It was never argued that he was a "Top 5 QB" .... and he wasn't expected to be , he was expected not to make mistakes.

We've had that discussion around here for the last 2 years. Watson is the star attraction and expected to perform a such.

What irks me is that when everything else is blamed for his mistakes. We've heard for 2-3 years that it was all OB's fault , the play design was bad , the blocking was bad and on occasion it has been but very often the plays were there to be made and the blocking was adequate and the trigger man was slow on the trigger or misfired .... but its always someone else's fault.

Its quite possible that Watson just isn't that star attraction he's billed as. The more I watch all22 and break down plays / games , that possibility becomes more and more likely.

The views the TV shows are terrible .... The all22 is very unforgiving. I wish that were the default view on TV.

Its also possible that OB was the problem .... the two games since he's been gone Watson has taken those underneath routes instead of hanging onto it looking for the big play more often than not and running himself into unnecessary sacks / pressure.


Last week he was really good - got the ball out quickly , best game in 18 months in that regard with an average of 2.6 seconds per throw.

Today Watson was very good particularly in the second half. If he played like that every week , we wouldn't be having this discussion. But we've seen more of the former than the later in the last year and a half.
Questions for you, when watching the all 22 can you simultaneously see who’s open along with what’s going on in the pocket? Can you match who’s open with where the QBs looking? Do you know his reads based on the play call and the coverage?

Heres a couple things we know for a fact:

our OL/pass blocking has been mediocre at best during DWs tenure, at times it’s been some of the worst in the NFL. I’m talking over his total time here. I’m calling out everything from schemes, OL, TEs and RBs. Tannehill played a terrific game yesterday, but he had all day to throw and a RB that ran roughshod over our defense. DWs never had that with any consistency

we‘ve heard numerous former NFL players call out BOB’s system for its complexity and poor play design. Steorner, Orlovsky, Smith, Shorts, Ihedabo, Payne, I’m sure there’s more that I can’t remember. Add to that OBs predictable play calling and it puts a ton of pressure on the QB

while I do like Watson my comments aren‘t solely to defend him, I would be making the same comments regardless of who’s playing QB if they were in the same circumstances. I think he’s been in a less then ideal situation. He does need to play better, no doubt, but I do not think he’s had the best coaching, and I do not think he’s been put in the best position to succeed. I’m just glad OBs gone
 

Mangler

All Pro
Rewatched the game (condensed) and it seems like the game plan actually did change after halftime. Watson was operating like a surgeon with a mix of plays from his rookie season to stuff we hadn’t seen under O’Brien. RAC is only interim HC, but he’s instilling something in this team and it’s working. Too bad our defense is compiled of garbage. Otherwise, the Tacks would have been at 4-1.
 
Questions for you, when watching the all 22 can you simultaneously see who’s open along with what’s going on in the pocket? Can you match who’s open with where the QBs looking? Do you know his reads based on the play call and the coverage?

Heres a couple things we know for a fact:

our OL/pass blocking has been mediocre at best during DWs tenure, at times it’s been some of the worst in the NFL. I’m talking over his total time here. I’m calling out everything from schemes, OL, TEs and RBs. Tannehill played a terrific game yesterday, but he had all day to throw and a RB that ran roughshod over our defense. DWs never had that with any consistency

we‘ve heard numerous former NFL players call out BOB’s system for its complexity and poor play design. Steorner, Orlovsky, Smith, Shorts, Ihedabo, Payne, I’m sure there’s more that I can’t remember. Add to that OBs predictable play calling and it puts a ton of pressure on the QB

while I do like Watson my comments aren‘t solely to defend him, I would be making the same comments regardless of who’s playing QB if they were in the same circumstances. I think he’s been in a less then ideal situation. He does need to play better, no doubt, but I do not think he’s had the best coaching, and I do not think he’s been put in the best position to succeed. I’m just glad OBs gone
This is an excuse, certainly those things are a big help and at times they are what pushes teams over the line but at the same time not every team that has had success had those things. GB hasn't had a receiver worth mentioning in years and Rodgers still finds ways, Brady hasn't had Gronk his entire career but he still found ways, Wilson had beast mode for awhile but lately its pretty much been all him, who has Brees really had to throw to but he's found a way. Even when it comes to lines those QBs haven't always had top tier Olines and in fact Brady has made middle of the road linemen look like stars. Yeah these teams, not counting the Pats, haven't seen many SBs but they are always in the running and they very rarely get stomped on and embarrassed. Fact is Watson has been in the bottom 5, and often bottom 3, for release time and ultimately thats on him. You can blame OB for the complex plays and that is a factor but when the play has started the decision to hold it or throw it is on the QB unless someone wants to make the argument that Watson is being told count to at least 3 before throwing. In which case if he's following that advice then we not only had a teaching problem but a student showing common sense problem.

Now all that being said a smart coach would have changed it up to develop very fast plays that pretty much given the QB no options on who to throw to. Thats what Watson had at Clemson, look it up if you don't believe me, and its worked beautifully for him because he knew his target before the play ever started and he could focus on keeping himself alive and making that Houdini play if needed. Watson has the tools to be a good if not great QB but just like Jackson he has to have an offense designed for him. I don't want Watson to pick the next HC because we saw what happens with Maysfield when a QB gets to hand picked their HC but I do want them to find a HC thats knows and understands Watson's strengths and weaknesses. In fact that should be one of the main interview questions on what does Watson do well and more importantly what does he do badly and then what will they as the HC do to play to his strengths and shore up his weaknesses.
 

76Texan

Hall of Fame
This is an excuse, certainly those things are a big help and at times they are what pushes teams over the line but at the same time not every team that has had success had those things. GB hasn't had a receiver worth mentioning in years and Rodgers still finds ways, Brady hasn't had Gronk his entire career but he still found ways, Wilson had beast mode for awhile but lately its pretty much been all him, who has Brees really had to throw to but he's found a way. Even when it comes to lines those QBs haven't always had top tier Olines and in fact Brady has made middle of the road linemen look like stars. Yeah these teams, not counting the Pats, haven't seen many SBs but they are always in the running and they very rarely get stomped on and embarrassed. Fact is Watson has been in the bottom 5, and often bottom 3, for release time and ultimately thats on him. You can blame OB for the complex plays and that is a factor but when the play has started the decision to hold it or throw it is on the QB unless someone wants to make the argument that Watson is being told count to at least 3 before throwing. In which case if he's following that advice then we not only had a teaching problem but a student showing common sense problem.

Now all that being said a smart coach would have changed it up to develop very fast plays that pretty much given the QB no options on who to throw to. Thats what Watson had at Clemson, look it up if you don't believe me, and its worked beautifully for him because he knew his target before the play ever started and he could focus on keeping himself alive and making that Houdini play if needed. Watson has the tools to be a good if not great QB but just like Jackson he has to have an offense designed for him. I don't want Watson to pick the next HC because we saw what happens with Maysfield when a QB gets to hand picked their HC but I do want them to find a HC thats knows and understands Watson's strengths and weaknesses. In fact that should be one of the main interview questions on what does Watson do well and more importantly what does he do badly and then what will they as the HC do to play to his strengths and shore up his weaknesses.
Totally disagree about Brady.
I had a look into it and the Pats always put emphasis on Olineman.
And Brady runs a scheme that have more short passes than most.
Two or three years ago, there were some stats and figures regarding that.
 

otisbean

Veteran
Contributor's Club
This is an excuse, certainly those things are a big help and at times they are what pushes teams over the line but at the same time not every team that has had success had those things. GB hasn't had a receiver worth mentioning in years and Rodgers still finds ways, Brady hasn't had Gronk his entire career but he still found ways, Wilson had beast mode for awhile but lately its pretty much been all him, who has Brees really had to throw to but he's found a way. Even when it comes to lines those QBs haven't always had top tier Olines and in fact Brady has made middle of the road linemen look like stars. Yeah these teams, not counting the Pats, haven't seen many SBs but they are always in the running and they very rarely get stomped on and embarrassed. Fact is Watson has been in the bottom 5, and often bottom 3, for release time and ultimately thats on him. You can blame OB for the complex plays and that is a factor but when the play has started the decision to hold it or throw it is on the QB unless someone wants to make the argument that Watson is being told count to at least 3 before throwing. In which case if he's following that advice then we not only had a teaching problem but a student showing common sense problem.

Now all that being said a smart coach would have changed it up to develop very fast plays that pretty much given the QB no options on who to throw to. Thats what Watson had at Clemson, look it up if you don't believe me, and its worked beautifully for him because he knew his target before the play ever started and he could focus on keeping himself alive and making that Houdini play if needed. Watson has the tools to be a good if not great QB but just like Jackson he has to have an offense designed for him. I don't want Watson to pick the next HC because we saw what happens with Maysfield when a QB gets to hand picked their HC but I do want them to find a HC thats knows and understands Watson's strengths and weaknesses. In fact that should be one of the main interview questions on what does Watson do well and more importantly what does he do badly and then what will they as the HC do to play to his strengths and shore up his weaknesses.
Show me where I mentioned his WRs in the text that you highlighted. I never said anything about WRs or TEs. I mentioned that Tannehill had all day to throw yesterday and that Henry killed us, which opened up the play action passing game. That’s a fact. It doesn’t diminish anything Tannehill did either. He was terrific, but his coaching staff and his teammates had a hand in that. I’d like to see that for us in the future

When I mentioned TEs I was referring to the pass blocking we’ve had over the years, or lack their of. Go back and watch Ryan Griffin’s feeble attempt at pass blocking and you’ll see what I’m talking about

I also think it’s ludicrous to compare DW to Brady, Rodgers, Brees and Wilson, he’s not in their league. You’re talking about some of the greatest QBs to ever step on the field.
Additionally, the first 3 have had much better OLs to play behind than DW. Also, I called out the whole pass blocking scheme, the O, the TEs and the RBs as well as the complexity of the schemes not just the OL. If you listen to Stoerner and Wade Smith they‘ve talkEd about this consistently for the past several years.

I believe I also said, though I like Watson, I do think he needs to improve in areas. I also was trying to call out the offense as a whole under BOB. I can critique OBs schemes, play calling and personnel decisions without it being all about Watson. I simply think OB was poor at his job as an offensive coach. I’m not trying to make excuses for Watson
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
Show me where I mentioned his WRs in the text that you highlighted. I never said anything about WRs or TEs. I mentioned that Tannehill had all day to throw yesterday and that Henry killed us, which opened up the play action passing game. That’s a fact. It doesn’t diminish anything Tannehill did either. He was terrific, but his coaching staff and his teammates had a hand in that. I’d like to see that for us in the future

When I mentioned TEs I was referring to the pass blocking we’ve had over the years, or lack their of. Go back and watch Ryan Griffin’s feeble attempt at pass blocking and you’ll see what I’m talking about

I also think it’s ludicrous to compare DW to Brady, Rodgers, Brees and Wilson, he’s not in their league. You’re talking about some of the greatest QBs to ever step on the field.
Additionally, the first 3 have had much better OLs to play behind than DW. Also, I called out the whole pass blocking scheme, the O, the TEs and the RBs as well as the complexity of the schemes not just the OL. If you listen to Stoerner and Wade Smith they‘ve talkEd about this consistently for the past several years.

I believe I also said, though I like Watson, I do think he needs to improve in areas. I also was trying to call out the offense as a whole under BOB. I can critique OBs schemes, play calling and personnel decisions without it being all about Watson. I simply think OB was poor at his job as an offensive coach. I’m not trying to make excuses for Watson
I guess you are a fan of Arthur Smith becoming the next HC of the Texans if you like the way the Titans run their offense.

I disagree about Brady/Wilson/Rodgers having better OL's. They make their OL's look better than they are. Brees has had a great OL for yrs.
 

otisbean

Veteran
Contributor's Club
I guess you are a fan of Arthur Smith becoming the next HC of the Texans if you like the way the Titans run their offense.

I disagree about Brady/Wilson/Rodgers having better OL's. They make their OL's look better than they are. Brees has had a great OL for yrs.
the Patriots have the best OL coach in the game, that certainly helps. He retired, their pass blocking went to crap and they talked him into returning.

Rodgers has had Bhaktiari and Bulaga who are superior to who DW have had by far

Wilson is a closer comparison for sure

Again, in both posts, I’m talking about the overall schemes and play designs and play calling, not just the OL
 
Totally disagree about Brady.
I had a look into it and the Pats always put emphasis on Olineman.
And Brady runs a scheme that have more short passes than most.
Two or three years ago, there were some stats and figures regarding that.
You realize you proved my point right? Brady did not always have good olinemen he made his olinemen look good because he had a lighting fast release and even a bad lineman can block most defense for 1.5 seconds. You want evidence look at how good he made Trent Brown look and then he goes to the Raiders and he's dedent at best. That happened to a lot of linemen over the years. They looked like all stars in NE and then they go to another team and they are decent at best. The one thing in common was they all had Brady at QB when they looked their best.

Show me where I mentioned his WRs in the text that you highlighted. I never said anything about WRs or TEs. I mentioned that Tannehill had all day to throw yesterday and that Henry killed us, which opened up the play action passing game. That’s a fact. It doesn’t diminish anything Tannehill did either. He was terrific, but his coaching staff and his teammates had a hand in that. I’d like to see that for us in the future

When I mentioned TEs I was referring to the pass blocking we’ve had over the years, or lack their of. Go back and watch Ryan Griffin’s feeble attempt at pass blocking and you’ll see what I’m talking about

I also think it’s ludicrous to compare DW to Brady, Rodgers, Brees and Wilson, he’s not in their league. You’re talking about some of the greatest QBs to ever step on the field.
Additionally, the first 3 have had much better OLs to play behind than DW. Also, I called out the whole pass blocking scheme, the O, the TEs and the RBs as well as the complexity of the schemes not just the OL. If you listen to Stoerner and Wade Smith they‘ve talkEd about this consistently for the past several years.

I believe I also said, though I like Watson, I do think he needs to improve in areas. I also was trying to call out the offense as a whole under BOB. I can critique OBs schemes, play calling and personnel decisions without it being all about Watson. I simply think OB was poor at his job as an offensive coach. I’m not trying to make excuses for Watson
Didn't say you did and I will grant you a lot of that wasn't aimed at you in particular it was just chance to address one of the biggest excuses for Watson right behind its all OB's fault and that is he doesn't have as good a team as other QBs. Texans may not be as good as say the Chiefs overall but they are, on paper at least, a talented team and they pretty much always have been. Do they weak points, of course they do but every team does. Now I agree with you that OB offense was not designed for Watson. Overall I'm not so sure it was bad per say but it definitely was designed for a Manning style QB that sits in the pocket and wants to have 200 possible changes he can make every play. Its also requires WRs that can make those changes on the fly as well. Where OB was a bad coach is he tried to force Watson and the WRs to change for the system rather than changes the system for the players.

All that being said though if Watson is going to be the 2nd highest paid QB in the league then yeah I think its fair to compare him to Brady, Rodgers, Brees, Wilson, Mahomes, Jackson and any other QB. If you are going to be paid like a superstar then you get judged like a superstar, I'd say the same no matter who our QB was. As far as the blockers go our line may not have been good but we would put both TEs to doing nothing but blocking and Watson was still getting sacked. So either we would have guys that had absolutely no business being in the NFL, other teams had defenses they were top 5 every time or Watson was doing some things that was adding to those sacks. Think Corrosion broke it down last year about how many of the 60+ sacks Watson either contributed to or was to blame for. That, as you said, has to be improved on.
 

76Texan

Hall of Fame
You realize you proved my point right? Brady did not always have good olinemen he made his olinemen look good because he had a lighting fast release and even a bad lineman can block most defense for 1.5 seconds. You want evidence look at how good he made Trent Brown look and then he goes to the Raiders and he's dedent at best. That happened to a lot of linemen over the years. They looked like all stars in NE and then they go to another team and they are decent at best. The one thing in common was they all had Brady at QB when they looked their best.



Didn't say you did and I will grant you a lot of that wasn't aimed at you in particular it was just chance to address one of the biggest excuses for Watson right behind its all OB's fault and that is he doesn't have as good a team as other QBs. Texans may not be as good as say the Chiefs overall but they are, on paper at least, a talented team and they pretty much always have been. Do they weak points, of course they do but every team does. Now I agree with you that OB offense was not designed for Watson. Overall I'm not so sure it was bad per say but it definitely was designed for a Manning style QB that sits in the pocket and wants to have 200 possible changes he can make every play. Its also requires WRs that can make those changes on the fly as well. Where OB was a bad coach is he tried to force Watson and the WRs to change for the system rather than changes the system for the players.

All that being said though if Watson is going to be the 2nd highest paid QB in the league then yeah I think its fair to compare him to Brady, Rodgers, Brees, Wilson, Mahomes, Jackson and any other QB. If you are going to be paid like a superstar then you get judged like a superstar, I'd say the same no matter who our QB was. As far as the blockers go our line may not have been good but we would put both TEs to doing nothing but blocking and Watson was still getting sacked. So either we would have guys that had absolutely no business being in the NFL, other teams had defenses they were top 5 every time or Watson was doing some things that was adding to those sacks. Think Corrosion broke it down last year about how many of the 60+ sacks Watson either contributed to or was to blame for. That, as you said, has to be improved on.
I was saying it a little differently.
The Pats do spend good resources on the offensive line.

The scheme (the short passing game) and Brady getting the ball to guys like Welker, Adelman, Gronk, etc. on short passes or to other receivers and receivers on screen passes don't require the linemen to block for long, but they do need to be smart and work together well to perform thoses tasks.

In another word, it's complimentary football that includes blocking scheme besides from route concepts and precised route running that make it all work.
 

otisbean

Veteran
Contributor's Club
You realize you proved my point right? Brady did not always have good olinemen he made his olinemen look good because he had a lighting fast release and even a bad lineman can block most defense for 1.5 seconds. You want evidence look at how good he made Trent Brown look and then he goes to the Raiders and he's dedent at best. That happened to a lot of linemen over the years. They looked like all stars in NE and then they go to another team and they are decent at best. The one thing in common was they all had Brady at QB when they looked their best.



Didn't say you did and I will grant you a lot of that wasn't aimed at you in particular it was just chance to address one of the biggest excuses for Watson right behind its all OB's fault and that is he doesn't have as good a team as other QBs. Texans may not be as good as say the Chiefs overall but they are, on paper at least, a talented team and they pretty much always have been. Do they weak points, of course they do but every team does. Now I agree with you that OB offense was not designed for Watson. Overall I'm not so sure it was bad per say but it definitely was designed for a Manning style QB that sits in the pocket and wants to have 200 possible changes he can make every play. Its also requires WRs that can make those changes on the fly as well. Where OB was a bad coach is he tried to force Watson and the WRs to change for the system rather than changes the system for the players.

All that being said though if Watson is going to be the 2nd highest paid QB in the league then yeah I think its fair to compare him to Brady, Rodgers, Brees, Wilson, Mahomes, Jackson and any other QB. If you are going to be paid like a superstar then you get judged like a superstar, I'd say the same no matter who our QB was. As far as the blockers go our line may not have been good but we would put both TEs to doing nothing but blocking and Watson was still getting sacked. So either we would have guys that had absolutely no business being in the NFL, other teams had defenses they were top 5 every time or Watson was doing some things that was adding to those sacks. Think Corrosion broke it down last year about how many of the 60+ sacks Watson either contributed to or was to blame for. That, as you said, has to be improved on.
the same idiot that tried to run a scheme that doesn’t fit his talent is the same idiot that offered him 40mil per yr. what’s he going to do say I’m not worth that?

you’re talking about having a quick release, you realize that’s also on the scheme, play design and calls right? Not 2-3 wks ago we had Cobb call out the offensive line and the play calling when asked about improving the sack situation. It would’ve been just as easy to say the QBs got to get rid of it quicker.
 

76Texan

Hall of Fame
You realize you proved my point right? Brady did not always have good olinemen he made his olinemen look good because he had a lighting fast release and even a bad lineman can block most defense for 1.5 seconds. You want evidence look at how good he made Trent Brown look and then he goes to the Raiders and he's dedent at best. That happened to a lot of linemen over the years. They looked like all stars in NE and then they go to another team and they are decent at best. The one thing in common was they all had Brady at QB when they looked their best.



Didn't say you did and I will grant you a lot of that wasn't aimed at you in particular it was just chance to address one of the biggest excuses for Watson right behind its all OB's fault and that is he doesn't have as good a team as other QBs. Texans may not be as good as say the Chiefs overall but they are, on paper at least, a talented team and they pretty much always have been. Do they weak points, of course they do but every team does. Now I agree with you that OB offense was not designed for Watson. Overall I'm not so sure it was bad per say but it definitely was designed for a Manning style QB that sits in the pocket and wants to have 200 possible changes he can make every play. Its also requires WRs that can make those changes on the fly as well. Where OB was a bad coach is he tried to force Watson and the WRs to change for the system rather than changes the system for the players.

All that being said though if Watson is going to be the 2nd highest paid QB in the league then yeah I think its fair to compare him to Brady, Rodgers, Brees, Wilson, Mahomes, Jackson and any other QB. If you are going to be paid like a superstar then you get judged like a superstar, I'd say the same no matter who our QB was. As far as the blockers go our line may not have been good but we would put both TEs to doing nothing but blocking and Watson was still getting sacked. So either we would have guys that had absolutely no business being in the NFL, other teams had defenses they were top 5 every time or Watson was doing some things that was adding to those sacks. Think Corrosion broke it down last year about how many of the 60+ sacks Watson either contributed to or was to blame for. That, as you said, has to be improved on.
Also, you may not realize things like 2002 for example, the Pats had two solid veteran TEs that was formerly drafted at 39th and 40th overall in their class, but they still draft a TE in the first round. (Cleeland, Fauria, and Graham).
The room is just full of them, it doesn't make any one stand out.

 

76Texan

Hall of Fame
the same idiot that tried to run a scheme that doesn’t fit his talent is the same idiot that offered him 40mil per yr. what’s he going to do say I’m not worth that?

you’re talking about having a quick release, you realize that’s also on the scheme, play design and calls right? Not 2-3 wks ago we had Cobb call out the offensive line and the play calling when asked about improving the sack situation. It would’ve been just as easy to say the QBs got to get rid of it quicker.
And Watson's money doesn't kick in until 2022.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
the Patriots have the best OL coach in the game, that certainly helps. He retired, their pass blocking went to crap and they talked him into returning.

Rodgers has had Bhaktiari and Bulaga who are superior to who DW have had by far

Wilson is a closer comparison for sure

Again, in both posts, I’m talking about the overall schemes and play designs and play calling, not just the OL
I dont think Bhaktiari is better than Tunsil. I cant figure out why Howard has regressed. (Devlin?)

Yes, Scarrnechia is a goat OL coach but Brady being a master at reading defenses helped out too. I think the Pats made the AFCCG without Scarrnechia.
 

Jadmakaveli

Veteran
Watson is proving coaching matters on offense. You run a **** scheme that no one can understand and you look bad. We run a more efficient offense that utilizes the players you have and he’s playing at an MVP level. Mind boggling isn’t it?
It’s odd to me people don’t know that schemes matter. Maybe they do know but chose to ignore it due to their personal beefs against Deshaun either way it’s pretty tragic if being a follower of the sport.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
It’s odd to me people don’t know that schemes matter. Maybe they do know but chose to ignore it due to their personal beefs against Deshaun either way it’s pretty tragic if being a follower of the sport.
I was for using the Ravens system because that's how I think DW4 can be most effective. If DW4 gets hurt so be it.
 
the same idiot that tried to run a scheme that doesn’t fit his talent is the same idiot that offered him 40mil per yr. what’s he going to do say I’m not worth that?

you’re talking about having a quick release, you realize that’s also on the scheme, play design and calls right? Not 2-3 wks ago we had Cobb call out the offensive line and the play calling when asked about improving the sack situation. It would’ve been just as easy to say the QBs got to get rid of it quicker.
First I never once said Watson shouldn't take the money nor blame him at all for getting as much as he could. The human being side of me applauds him for making it and getting the big paycheck because many don't. The Texan fan side of me wishes that he and all the other players were playing for pennies. I do know that scheme matters and have never said otherwise. In fact in that very post I said that OB was trying to force his players to use a scheme that was not for them. That being said though going for the big play so much, thinking he can escape from almost any situation and not throwing it away is mostly on Watson. Again a good coach wouldn't put his player in those kind of situations if he can avoid it. Also Cobb is a WR and no WR is going to call out his QB because he knows he's never getting targeted again. Not saying he's wrong but also he's far from unbias.
 
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Also, you may not realize things like 2002 for example, the Pats had two solid veteran TEs that was formerly drafted at 39th and 40th overall in their class, but they still draft a TE in the first round. (Cleeland, Fauria, and Graham).
The room is just full of them, it doesn't make any one stand out.

2002 was before they really understood what they had with Brady and before Brady was really Brady. As the years went on they started trusting him to make the offense look better than many times it was and focused a bit more on the defense. Defense won their share of games for the Pats team to when even Brady couldn't work magic the whole game.
 
It’s odd to me people don’t know that schemes matter. Maybe they do know but chose to ignore it due to their personal beefs against Deshaun either way it’s pretty tragic if being a follower of the sport.
So who exactly has said schemes don't matter? Pretty sure nobody has at any point said that a good QB could thrive no matter what the scheme. Newton couldn't handle a pass heavy scheme and Brady can't handle a duel threat scheme. We all know OB's scheme was wrong for Watson and even Steel has said for over a year to go to a college style scheme that better fits Watson's playstyle.
 

otisbean

Veteran
Contributor's Club
I dont think Bhaktiari is better than Tunsil. I cant figure out why Howard has regressed. (Devlin?)

Yes, Scarrnechia is a goat OL coach but Brady being a master at reading defenses helped out too. I think the Pats made the AFCCG without Scarrnechia.
we just recently acquired Tunsil though, in my posts I’ve referenced the whole time DW has been here.

as I said in an earlier post It’s unfair to compare DW (or any young QB, save maybe Mahomes) to effectively the best to ever play. Also, Brady has been an NFL for 21 yrs, that’s over 80% of DW life.

my posts haven’t been to defend DW specifically, it’s to defend the QB position in general, they get too much credit and too much blame. In the Texans case under OB they haven’t done enough to help their young QB.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
we just recently acquired Tunsil though, in my posts I’ve referenced the whole time DW has been here.

as I said in an earlier post It’s unfair to compare DW (or any young QB, save maybe Mahomes) to effectively the best to ever play. Also, Brady has been an NFL for 21 yrs, that’s over 80% of DW life.

my posts haven’t been to defend DW specifically, it’s to defend the QB position in general, they get too much credit and too much blame. In the Texans case under OB they haven’t done enough to help their young QB.
he OL while not great are on par with the Packers/Pats OL's is my point. Posters try to make this about DW4 not being protected. Do you think DW4's as far along as he should be after 4 yrs? Do you think he's a top 5 QB as many here said in another thread?

The point really gets down to how good you think DW4 is and how much you think he can improve. The blaming of everything but DW4 for the teams failings is intellectually dishonest. IMHO My mind hasn't been changed on this topic as of Sunday.
 

Texansballer74

Hall of Fame
First I never once said Watson shouldn't take the money nor blame him at all for getting as much as he could. The human being side of me applauds him for making it and getting the big paycheck because many don't. The Texan fan side of me wishes that he and all the other players were playing for pennies. I do know that scheme matters and have never said otherwise. In fact in that very post I said that OB was trying to force his players to use a scheme that was not for them. That being said though going for the big play so much, thinking he can escape from almost any situation and not throwing it away is mostly on Watson. Again a good coach wouldn't put his player in those kind of situations if he can avoid it. Also Cobb is a WR and no WR is going to call out his QB because he knows he's never getting targeted again. Not saying he's wrong but also he's far from unbias.

Why bring up what he makes in the first place? The way that it’s being delivered is the issue here.
 

76Texan

Hall of Fame
Playing poor defenses also helps offenses look better.
Numbers can be deceiving.
The Titans do not have a bad defense.
It was the defense that played a big part in their playoffs run last year.

They had added a few pieces this year, so even with injuries (which other teams they played also suffer, though I'm not sure about the degree of each team), it's still at least the same defense.
 

76Texan

Hall of Fame
he OL while not great are on par with the Packers/Pats OL's is my point. Posters try to make this about DW4 not being protected. Do you think DW4's as far along as he should be after 4 yrs? Do you think he's a top 5 QB as many here said in another thread?

The point really gets down to how good you think DW4 is and how much you think he can improve. The blaming of everything but DW4 for the teams failings is intellectually dishonest. IMHO My mind hasn't been changed on this topic as of Sunday.
You must be kidding about the offensive line of these teams
Do you have proof?

PFF may not be the gospel, but they are closer in evaluating a unit (instead of individual players).

 

mws

Waterboy
Even when Watson has a low cap hit it is not like the Texans are handling their money very well.

2020 Texans Cap Space

Total Cap Liabilities: $209,924,713
Top 51: $190,597,577
Team Available Cap Space: $8,089,121
Offense: $108,408,532
Defense: $81,607,630
Special: $8,017,466
 
Why bring up what he makes in the first place? The way that it’s being delivered is the issue here.
Because it matters, maybe not this year or the next but then we know that Texans have no chance this year or the next. Assuming they hire a HC and GM next offseason those two will need at least a year to really see what they have with the team and to do some rebuilding which is going to be interesting to watch without caps space or draft picks. The first year that a new HC might be able to do something with the team is also when Watson's contract kicks into high gear and then it will be something that the new GM has to deal with when they are trying to rebuild. You keep acting like Watson's salary is none of our business well do you think them making Tunsil the highest paid LT is also none of our business, or overpaying for Martin and Mercilus? If its not then why even bother posting about any deals or trades. Oh and alos by that way of thinking OB trading Hopkins because they didn't want to pay him is also none of our business.
 
Even when Watson has a low cap hit it is not like the Texans are handling their money very well.

2020 Texans Cap Space

Total Cap Liabilities: $209,924,713
Top 51: $190,597,577
Team Available Cap Space: $8,089,121
Offense: $108,408,532
Defense: $81,607,630
Special: $8,017,466
No they are not and I don't think anybody with a calculator and a basic understanding of budgeting would say they were but its going to get worse when Watson's contract kicks into high gear. I just hope the new GM is a wiz at finding low cost players that are way undervalued. Not sure who on the Texans was doing that before but for a year or so we were really good at that with Honey Badger as a great example. It might have been Gaines because we saw it wasn't OB with the contracts he handed out.
 

Corrosion

Idealist
Staff member
Questions for you, when watching the all 22 can you simultaneously see who’s open along with what’s going on in the pocket? Can you match who’s open with where the QBs looking? Do you know his reads based on the play call and the coverage?

All22 gives a top down view of the section of field that's "in play". You see the pocket and the route runners all at the same time.

You can't see the QB's eyes .... but you can see "which way he's looking".







Heres a couple things we know for a fact:

our OL/pass blocking has been mediocre at best during DWs tenure, at times it’s been some of the worst in the NFL. I’m talking over his total time here. I’m calling out everything from schemes, OL, TEs and RBs. Tannehill played a terrific game yesterday, but he had all day to throw and a RB that ran roughshod over our defense. DWs never had that with any consistency

we‘ve heard numerous former NFL players call out BOB’s system for its complexity and poor play design. Steorner, Orlovsky, Smith, Shorts, Ihedabo, Payne, I’m sure there’s more that I can’t remember. Add to that OBs predictable play calling and it puts a ton of pressure on the QB

while I do like Watson my comments aren‘t solely to defend him, I would be making the same comments regardless of who’s playing QB if they were in the same circumstances. I think he’s been in a less then ideal situation. He does need to play better, no doubt, but I do not think he’s had the best coaching, and I do not think he’s been put in the best position to succeed. I’m just glad OBs gone
Circumstances do matter and I've never said that Watson was in some ideal situation - What I am saying is that he contributes to his own problems - particularly with holding the ball so long when there are underneath routes to be had.

He's said himself "I expect to take hits the way I play QB" .... That's holding onto the ball looking for the deeper routes rather than taking advantage of what's open.

Opposing coaches have made similar remarks.

Bottom line is he contributes to his own sack numbers and those are drive killers.


@CloakNNNdagger posted a statistic yesterday about those sacks being more damaging to win rate than interceptions as they occur with greater frequency.


The narrative has been "No One Is Open" - "He has nowhere to throw" - That's far from the truth when you view the All22. The deeper routes that he's got his eyes on aren't open but the vast majority of the time one of those underneath routes or checkdowns is there to be had ...

I was where most of you are a little over a year ago .... I blamed the scheme , the blocking , the route combinations , the playcall ..... Then I sat down with a family member who is an NFL OC while he broke down that All22 film - It was eye opening to say the least.


The narratives around here are false - the blocking is in general adequate , there are guys open , often wide open.
 

Corrosion

Idealist
Staff member
Even when Watson has a low cap hit it is not like the Texans are handling their money very well.

2020 Texans Cap Space

Total Cap Liabilities: $209,924,713
Top 51: $190,597,577
Team Available Cap Space: $8,089,121
Offense: $108,408,532
Defense: $81,607,630
Special: $8,017,466

I've complained about many contracts - not just Watson's .... His and Tunsil's are just the two worst.

They have been terrible at handling the cap and its only getting worse in the next two seasons when you have ~62m tied up in two players - that's 31% of the current cap while the future cap is expected to decline by ~12%.
 

Earl34

All Pro
All22 gives a top down view of the section of field that's "in play". You see the pocket and the route runners all at the same time.

You can't see the QB's eyes .... but you can see "which way he's looking".









Circumstances do matter and I've never said that Watson was in some ideal situation - What I am saying is that he contributes to his own problems - particularly with holding the ball so long when there are underneath routes to be had.

He's said himself "I expect to take hits the way I play QB" .... That's holding onto the ball looking for the deeper routes rather than taking advantage of what's open.

Opposing coaches have made similar remarks.

Bottom line is he contributes to his own sack numbers and those are drive killers.


@CloakNNNdagger posted a statistic yesterday about those sacks being more damaging to win rate than interceptions as they occur with greater frequency.


The narrative has been "No One Is Open" - "He has nowhere to throw" - That's far from the truth when you view the All22. The deeper routes that he's got his eyes on aren't open but the vast majority of the time one of those underneath routes or checkdowns is there to be had ...

I was where most of you are a little over a year ago .... I blamed the scheme , the blocking , the route combinations , the playcall ..... Then I sat down with a family member who is an NFL OC while he broke down that All22 film - It was eye opening to say the least.


The narratives around here are false - the blocking is in general adequate , there are guys open , often wide open.
You have gone into details about this on multiple posts and after reading your posts. I always have a couple of questions. If a QB is holding the ball too long or consistently missing the underneath routes:
  1. When he comes off the field, why isn't the coaching staff either chewing him out or using a tablet to show him the wide open targets during the game?
  2. If his inclination is to look deep, why are they not changing the progressions?
  3. If he is waiting too long on these option routes, why not run fewer option routes?
  4. If he has too many options, why not roll him out and cut the field in half?
 
You have gone into details about this on multiple posts and after reading your posts. I always have a couple of questions. If a QB is holding the ball too long or consistently missing the underneath routes:
  1. When he comes off the field, why isn't the coaching staff either chewing him out or using a tablet to show him the wide open targets during the game?
  2. If his inclination is to look deep, why are they not changing the progressions?
  3. If he is waiting too long on these option routes, why not run fewer option routes?
  4. If he has too many options, why not roll him out and cut the field in half?
The first one we don't know that they aren't but as for the last 3 thats what pretty much all of us agree was OB's biggest failing. He rarely changed things up to better fit his QB and he always went back to what he was most comfortable with. No one is saying it's all on Watson but anyone that says its all on OB isn't looking at the whole picture.
 

76Texan

Hall of Fame
All22 gives a top down view of the section of field that's "in play". You see the pocket and the route runners all at the same time.

You can't see the QB's eyes .... but you can see "which way he's looking".









Circumstances do matter and I've never said that Watson was in some ideal situation - What I am saying is that he contributes to his own problems - particularly with holding the ball so long when there are underneath routes to be had.

He's said himself "I expect to take hits the way I play QB" .... That's holding onto the ball looking for the deeper routes rather than taking advantage of what's open.

Opposing coaches have made similar remarks.

Bottom line is he contributes to his own sack numbers and those are drive killers.


@CloakNNNdagger posted a statistic yesterday about those sacks being more damaging to win rate than interceptions as they occur with greater frequency.


The narrative has been "No One Is Open" - "He has nowhere to throw" - That's far from the truth when you view the All22. The deeper routes that he's got his eyes on aren't open but the vast majority of the time one of those underneath routes or checkdowns is there to be had ...

I was where most of you are a little over a year ago .... I blamed the scheme , the blocking , the route combinations , the playcall ..... Then I sat down with a family member who is an NFL OC while he broke down that All22 film - It was eye opening to say the least.


The narratives around here are false - the blocking is in general adequate , there are guys open , often wide open.
It's a matter of he says she says so it's really a moot point to get into.

What we know for sure is that since OB's been gone, there's hardly such complaint from you, Mr Tex, Steelb, and whoever.
So what's give?
 

76Texan

Hall of Fame
The first one we don't know that they aren't but as for the last 3 thats what pretty much all of us agree was OB's biggest failing. He rarely changed things up to better fit his QB and he always went back to what he was most comfortable with. No one is saying it's all on Watson but anyone that says its all on OB isn't looking at the whole picture.
Nobody is saying it's ALL on OB.

But at the end of the day, it really is... for too many reasons to lay it out in one post.

He's gone, and eventually, this team will be better because of it.
 

Texansballer74

Hall of Fame
You have gone into details about this on multiple posts and after reading your posts. I always have a couple of questions. If a QB is holding the ball too long or consistently missing the underneath routes:
  1. When he comes off the field, why isn't the coaching staff either chewing him out or using a tablet to show him the wide open targets during the game?
  2. If his inclination is to look deep, why are they not changing the progressions?
  3. If he is waiting too long on these option routes, why not run fewer option routes?
  4. If he has too many options, why not roll him out and cut the field in half?
Because that’s probably not what the play called for. Quarterback are taught to go to their first read and if it’s not there then go through your progression. At pre snap you look at what the defense is doing and you and the receiver adjust accordingly. The All 22 does not factor in those things. This is why I will continue to say it doesn’t tell the full story.
 

Texansballer74

Hall of Fame
The first one we don't know that they aren't but as for the last 3 thats what pretty much all of us agree was OB's biggest failing. He rarely changed things up to better fit his QB and he always went back to what he was most comfortable with. No one is saying it's all on Watson but anyone that says its all on OB isn't looking at the whole picture.
Nobody said it was all on OB.
 

mws

Waterboy
No one is saying it's all on Watson but anyone that says its all on OB isn't looking at the whole picture.
I agree that Watson has to share in the blame but I still say the lions share goes to O'Brien.

Here is a HC that loves to run. He builds his offense around the running game. Yet he is horrible at getting running backs that fit his system. Or here's a crazy thought how about prioritizing offensive lineman that can actually block for the running game instead of them being a jack of all trades.

We would waste down after down on short or no gain runs & then expect Watson to get a first down when everybody in the stadium knew he had to throw. That's one of the reasons we always had so many 3 & outs.

What truly boggles my mind is that O'Brien finally found a back (Hyde) that could produce in his so called system & the first thing he does is get rid of him and brings in the albatross that is David Johnson. Not only does he not fit O'Brien running style but he literally cost 5 times more than Hyde did in 2019. In my book one of Billy O's biggest failures was his running attack over 7 seasons.

We need a coach that if they are going to have a run heavy offense they can get somebody that can run or they can design running plays that work.
 

Corrosion

Idealist
Staff member
You have gone into details about this on multiple posts and after reading your posts. I always have a couple of questions. If a QB is holding the ball too long or consistently missing the underneath routes:
  1. When he comes off the field, why isn't the coaching staff either chewing him out or using a tablet to show him the wide open targets during the game?
  2. If his inclination is to look deep, why are they not changing the progressions?
  3. If he is waiting too long on these option routes, why not run fewer option routes?
  4. If he has too many options, why not roll him out and cut the field in half?

I've said much the same thing - What are his progressions ? Why not reduce the options ? Why not get him outside the pocket naturally ?


As for #1 .... you do see Watson with the tablet in hand on the sidelines quite often , usually with AJ McCarron. What you don't see is the coaching staff in that picture.

Don't ask me why.
 
Because that’s probably not what the play called for. Quarterback are taught to go to their first read and if it’s not there then go through your progression. At pre snap you look at what the defense is doing and you and the receiver adjust accordingly. The All 22 does not factor in those things. This is why I will continue to say it doesn’t tell the full story.
Yet people on here saying it’s the play calling or the scheme does tell the full story?
 

Corrosion

Idealist
Staff member
  1. When he comes off the field, why isn't the coaching staff either chewing him out or using a tablet to show him the wide open targets during the game?

I have to come back to this .... Why aren't the coaches chewing his ass ?

This is where you have to understand what makes Watson "special" and that's his ability to evade pressure and keep plays alive.


If you ask him not to do that , you are asking him not to be what makes him what he is.

But in this instance , you are damned if you do and damned if you don't because its all but a proven fact that you can't make a living in this league just on those kinda plays , you have to be able to sustain drives too.

I think the best comparison here is .... Brett Favre. That dude was a gunslinger and would take chances. One minute you are thinking no no no don't do that , the next you are elated at the result. And really , were you going to tell him not to do what made him what he is ?!

That's how I see Watson's game .... You can't ask him not to do what he does or he is just another guy back there.
 

thunderkyss

Just win baby!!!
Staff member
Contributor's Club
I've said much the same thing - What are his progressions ? Why not reduce the options ? Why not get him outside the pocket naturally ?
I think you do those things with a guy in his 1st or 2nd year. A guy still trying to learn the offense & read defenses. I think BO'b did that Watson's rookie season, mainly because he was giving 1st team snaps to Savage.

He didn't do it Watson's 2nd & third year & that's why we saw a lot of the "regression." He went from playing very fast to slow & methodical.

But he's way past that now, he had to learn the hard way. Still, if we're going up against a really good defense I'd try to do some of those things to loosen up the defense & make them react to Watson.

But against Jacksonville & Tennessee it shouldn't have been necessary. I'm not saying he didn't make mistakes against them, but he didn't need to do anything special.

Against KC, Baltimore, Pittsburgh, yeah we needed something extra to get them out of their game.
 

JB

Old Curmudgeon
Contributor's Club
You have gone into details about this on multiple posts and after reading your posts. I always have a couple of questions. If a QB is holding the ball too long or consistently missing the underneath routes:
  1. When he comes off the field, why isn't the coaching staff either chewing him out or using a tablet to show him the wide open targets during the game?
  2. If his inclination is to look deep, why are they not changing the progressions?
  3. If he is waiting too long on these option routes, why not run fewer option routes?
  4. If he has too many options, why not roll him out and cut the field in half?
Coaching
 


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