When do we end the Kareem experiment?

[GP]

My interpretation is that Jones dropped the ball on his own, but even if he would've grasped it, KJ would've pulled his hands apart and dislodged the ball.

I wish you could see the zoomed-in version. You'd see Kareem's hand so loosely cupped it looks like he's doing it just for the sake of getting some balance and sticking closer to Jones.

You know when a receiver places a hand on the top of the defender's shoulder pad to steady himself to make the jump up toward the ball? To steady himself, plain and simple. If anything, KJ is just trying to hang there in the pocket with Jones. I'm telling you guys, KJ wasn't ripping the guy's arm. The ball Kah-Pings! right off Jones' hands and then you see Jones still trying to use his hands to follow the ball downward and track it down to catch it...but it ricocheted so quickly that he had no chance at getting it. It was the very definition of stone hands.

In fact, michaelm, the replay will show that KJ's "iron-grip hand" comes off of Jones' bicep so easily and so quickly, that I don't even think KJ was pulling all that hard if any at all. There was no follow-through when KJ's hand detaches from Jones' bicep.

It's plausible that KJ wasn't tugging very hard, in my estimation at least, because he didn't want to get flagged for interference. That's a micro-second of time that he has to to decide if he makes the tug or doesn't...and perhaps HAD he tugged too hard, the ref flags him and the Falcons get the ball 1st and goal at the 1. So, all in all it's good that it worked out like it did.

 

[HOU-TEX]

We can sum this thread and any future thread by the following scenarios/statements.

KJ gets beaten on a go or post route.
-He keeps falling down and we need to drop him. He sucks.

KJ makes an interception.
-Well, technically he got beaten and QB made a bad pass. It should have been a touchdown.
-He just happened to be in the right spot. You can thank wade phillips for the improved pass rush. He still sucks.


KJ makes a play on the ball.
- See above.
- We lucked out that the WR didn't catch it. KJ made no impact there.

KJ gets tripped up.
- Omg he just falls down again and again. the guy simply can't stay on his feet (never mind the previous 12 games).

KJ makes a stop on the run.
- crickets

KJ not targetted due to decent coverage
- Wow, our pass rush was great. Good safety help. Man thank goodness we have improved in both aspects that they didn't even have time to exploit our weakness. KJ.

KJ forces a game changing fumble
- Grover Quinn did an excellent job forcing that fumble.
(when it becomes apparent it was Quinn that forced the fumble).
- Grover Quinn did an excellent job of getting to that ball.

That's about the jist of it. Didn't even need to read through the thread. Thanks, man.

+Rep

 

[GP]

We can sum this thread and any future thread by the following scenarios/statements.

KJ gets beaten on a go or post route.
-He keeps falling down and we need to drop him. He sucks.

KJ makes an interception.
-Well, technically he got beaten and QB made a bad pass. It should have been a touchdown.
-He just happened to be in the right spot. You can thank wade phillips for the improved pass rush. He still sucks.


KJ makes a play on the ball.
- See above.
- We lucked out that the WR didn't catch it. KJ made no impact there.

KJ gets tripped up.
- Omg he just falls down again and again. the guy simply can't stay on his feet (never mind the previous 12 games).

KJ makes a stop on the run.
- crickets

KJ not targetted due to decent coverage
- Wow, our pass rush was great. Good safety help. Man thank goodness we have improved in both aspects that they didn't even have time to exploit our weakness. KJ.

KJ forces a game changing fumble
- Grover Quinn did an excellent job of getting to that ball.

Edit.

 

[michaelm]

I wish you could see the zoomed-in version. You'd see Kareem's hand so loosely cupped it looks like he's doing it just for the sake of getting some balance and sticking closer to Jones.

You know when a receiver places a hand on the top of the defender's shoulder pad to steady himself to make the jump up toward the ball? To steady himself, plain and simple. If anything, KJ is just trying to hang there in the pocket with Jones. I'm telling you guys, KJ wasn't ripping the guy's arm. The ball Kah-Pings! right off Jones' hands and then you see Jones still trying to use his hands to follow the ball downward and track it down to catch it...but it ricocheted so quickly that he had no chance at getting it. It was the very definition of stone hands.

In fact, michaelm, the replay will show that KJ's "iron-grip hand" comes off of Jones' bicep so easily and so quickly, that I don't even think KJ was pulling all that hard if any at all. There was no follow-through when KJ's hand detaches from Jones' bicep.

It's plausible that KJ wasn't tugging very hard, in my estimation at least, because he didn't want to get flagged for interference. That's a micro-second of time that he has to to decide if he makes the tug or doesn't...and perhaps HAD he tugged too hard, the ref flags him and the Falcons get the ball 1st and goal at the 1. So, all in all it's good that it worked out like it did.

I watched a zoomed in version here, at the 3:05 mark.
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d824bad22/Falcons-vs-Texans-highlights

I agree that KJ didn't rip Jones' arm down. far from it really, but it looks to me like he might have pulled enough to keep Jones from following through with his left hand.
Really, we're micro-analyzing this thing to an impossible level, though.
It's basically assumption on my part that KJ pulled hard enough to keep Jones from clasping his hands enough to make the catch. I feel like it is also an assumption to conclude the opposite.

 

[disaacks3]

Already before what? Jones initiates the entanglement by pushing off lightly with his left hand on KJ's chest number. This results in KJ's right arm being inside Jones' left arm as both go up to get the ball. KJ's arm was inside Jones' before the ball arrives.

Yep.

My interpretation is that Jones dropped the ball on his own, but even if he would've grasped it, KJ would've pulled his hands apart and dislodged the ball.

Agree.

I pulled up the DVR last night and ran that play back/forth on slow-mo (much to my wife's irritation) about 10 times. Anybody that says KJ didn't / couldn't have an effect on that play is dreaming. His arm COULD have ripped the ball away had it been necessary. Without interviewing Jones, who knows whether KJ's hand on his arm contributed to the non-catch.

KJ had a SOLID game, period.

 

[thunderkyss]

Correct. I think Kareem Jackson had zero impact on the play. Julio Jones had the impact on the play because Julio Jones dropped the pass and it was right on his hands. Julio Jones and Roddy White were dropping passes all day long, btw.

If it makes you feel better, I also think Joseph screwed up by getting too deep into the corner of the end zone on the previous play. Roddy White boxed him out, and it looked like Shaq boxing out Spud Webb. Had that pass been a yard shorter, or had Roddy White gone a yard deeper and pushed joseph back even further...that's a TD and there's not even a Julio Jones-Kareem Jackson showdown with 1 second on the clock.

I am only saying that this idea that KJ saved the day? False. He was there. He didn't impact the play. Did he get the game ball? Yes. Fine, whatever, give everybody a game ball, big deal. I'm talking about us, right here, discussing how much "impact" he had on that play. He didn't. Julio jumped, didn't even have to jockey for position in order to jump for it, and the ball Kah-Ping! bounces off his hands and because KJ's hand is cupped on Jones' bicep it has turned into "KJ helped seal the victory." It's false.

I've praised the guy plenty and I mean it sincerely when I do praise the guy. Others, though, seem bent on saying that he is DEFINITELY improving and that the detractors are just hating for the sake of hating. The guy is splitting reps 50-50, he's being marginalized for a reason.

Had Kj not had any impact on the play, Julio would have had no reason to jump. Ryan wouldn't have had to throw it high. It would have been an easy pass & catch & we'd be talking about TJ Yates winning his first OT game.

Another thing, talking about how Kj is improving. It's been three weeks since anyone has said anything about Kj.... It took 3 weeks to pick on Kj. He hasn't been falling down, rookie WRs haven't been burning him. He hasn't been getting picked on.

& if you think about it, nobody is throwing his way.
.

 

[76Texan]

I can do even better!

I can show that as Jones's left elbow came down, it hit KJ's wrist (and stalled).
Jones' two arms (and hands) are no longer balanced (on the same horizontal plane), causing the ball to slip out of his grab.

Any wager for a beer or two, LOL!?!

 

[TEXANRED]

KJ has played like a stud the second half of the season. I don't know what Wade is putting in their water but I like it.

 

[thunderkyss]

KJ forces a game changing fumble
- Grover Quinn did an excellent job forcing that fumble.
(when it becomes apparent it was Quinn that forced the fumble).
- Grover Quinn did an excellent job of getting to that ball.

Grover?

This isn't Sesame Street.

 

[ObsiWan]

Re: When do we end the Kareem experiment?

Wade's happy with him... at least as half a starter

Kubiak is happy with Wade's decisions on defense

We are all happy with the results Wade's defense is producing

When do we end this thread??

 

[TEXANRED]

Re: When do we end the Kareem experiment?

Wade's happy with him... at least as half a starter

Kubiak is happy with Wade's decisions on defense

We are all happy with the results Wade's defense is producing

When do we end this thread??

when we win 7 in a row?

 

[Rey]

Anybody trying to say that was great coverage by Kareem is wrong. Anyone saying he had 0 impact on the incompletion is wrong.

Jones probably should have made the catch. The ball hit him in the hands and if his name was jacoby instead of Julio we'd be talking about how he dropped a catchable pass.

Fact is, a lot of receivers make that catch anyways. But kj played a role in the incometion. He was not the sole cause of it, but he certainly helped.

I've seen receivers make catches under much tighter coverage. I've also seen receivers drop balls simply because of the presence of defenders.

The truth on why the play happened is somewhere in between. Pretty decent job by kjax not a great job by Julio.

 

[76Texan]

I can do even better!

I can show that as Jones's left elbow came down, it hit KJ's wrist (and stalled).
Jones' two arms (and hands) are no longer balanced (on the same horizontal plane), causing the ball to slip out of his grab.

Any wager for a beer or two, LOL!?!

Here's the whole sequence in low res:
http://s1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/2011%20Week%2013%20vs%20Falcons/Last%20Play/111/

Here's the whole sequence in high res:
http://s1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/2011%20Week%2013%20vs%20Falcons/Last%20Play/222/

Here are the 3 important pictures in the sequence:

The 3 red lines are used to show the horizontal planes for references (using the top and bottom of Toro's number and the flap of the sport coat of the guy standing in the endzone.

 

[thunderkyss]

Anybody trying to say that was great coverage by Kareem is wrong. Anyone saying he had 0 impact on the incompletion is wrong.

Jones probably should have made the catch. The ball hit him in the hands and if his name was jacoby instead of Julio we'd be talking about how he dropped a catchable pass.

Fact is, a lot of receivers make that catch anyways. But kj played a role in the incometion. He was not the sole cause of it, but he certainly helped.

I've seen receivers make catches under much tighter coverage. I've also seen receivers drop balls simply because of the presence of defenders.

The truth on why the play happened is somewhere in between. Pretty decent job by kjax not a great job by Julio.

Best post in the thread.

Lemme ask you this. Say you're a CB & you have to cover Julio Jones. Twice, you have him against the sideline.

Why do you go for the ball?

All you have to do, is push him out of bounds before he comes down.

They never would have gotten to the 30 yard line had Kj pushed Jones instead of going for the ball.

There would be no question of Kj's impact had he stayed on his feet & pushed Julio out of bounds.

I know that's not what they're thought, but with the rules we have now, If I think I'm close to the sideline, I'm going to push the guy out of bounds.

 

[Rey]

Here's the whole sequence in low res:
http://s1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/2011 Week 13 vs Falcons/Last Play/111/

Here's the whole sequence in high res:
http://s1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/2011 Week 13 vs Falcons/Last Play/222/

Here are the 3 important pictures in the sequence:

The 3 red lines are used to show the horizontal planes for references (using the top and bottom of Toro's number and the flap of the sport coat of the guy standing in the endzone.

I think you are reaching.

Football isn't played in freeze frames and your hands and elbows don't have to be level to make a catch.

Jackson played a role in the drop, but to say he is the sole reason or even to say he was a major factor is disingenuous IMO.

Kareem isn't trash, but he's not made of gold and platinum either.

 

[thunderkyss]

 

[76Texan]

I think you are reaching.

Football isn't played in freeze frames and your hands and elbows don't have to be level to make a catch.

Jackson played a role in the drop, but to say he is the sole reason or even to say he was a major factor is disingenuous IMO.

If you look at Julio's elbows, you will see that his right elbow came down more than his left (due to Jackson's arm/wrist/hand).

When you try to grab a ball with both hands and a guy knocks one of your elbows, you will definitely lose balance of your grasp.

If you don't see that, there's no use talking!

 

[Rey]

Best post in the thread.

Lemme ask you this. Say you're a CB & you have to cover Julio Jones. Twice, you have him against the sideline.

Why do you go for the ball?

All you have to do, is push him out of bounds before he comes down.

They never would have gotten to the 30 yard line had Kj pushed Jones instead of going for the ball.

There would be no question of Kj's impact had he stayed on his feet & pushed Julio out of bounds.

I know that's not what they're thought, but with the rules we have now, If I think I'm close to the sideline, I'm going to push the guy out of bounds.

With how close he was to the sideline I though that's what he'd try to do.

I just don't see how anyone can muster the energy to complain about Kareem on that play or especially in that game.

He made some errors but the guy had an int, a big hit and he was a factor in Julio dropping that pass.

I font care if it's scheme d line or whatever. Kareem and Allen have played better this year. I'd like to see Kareem go ahead and outright take that job though because Allen won't be here forever.

 

[disaacks3]

I think you are reaching.

Football isn't played in freeze frames and your hands and elbows don't have to be level to make a catch.

Jackson played a role in the drop, but to say he is the sole reason or even to say he was a major factor is disingenuous IMO.

Kareem isn't trash, but he's not made of gold and platinum either.

Once again, without interviewing Jones, how can you say he was/wasn't a "major factor"?

 

[Rey]

If you look at Julio's elbows, you will see that his right elbow came down more than his left (due to Jackson's arm/wrist/hand).

When you try to grab a ball with both hands and a guy knocks one of your elbows, you will definitely lose balance of your grasp.

If you don't see that, there's no use talking!

Well then go ahead and stop talking because you are trying to give more credit than what's due while others aren't giving enough.

go look at a falcons board and convince those guys that their stud 1st round wr didn't drop a catchable ball.

Kj had a part in that, but it was still a drop at the end if the day.

If that was our first round pick at wr I'd have expected him to catch it despite the bump on the elbow.

Good job by kj doing as much as he could there and playing a role in the drop, but I think you are giving entirely too much credit. Jmo.

 

[Rey]

Once again, without interviewing Jones, how can you say he was/wasn't a "major factor"?

Not sure why you put major factor in quotes as I didn't use those words. Hard to discuss imaginary points.

But I know football and have played a lot of football and I've seen lesser wide receivers make tougher catches under much more duress.

My first post in this thread I basically told Ellis that i thought he wasn't giving Kareem enough credit. Conversely I think some are reaching to give him more credit than he deserves.

Good play by Kareem. Really good game by him.

Not sure what your point is about interviewing jones because I guarantee he'd say he should have caught it. HE probably wouldn't give kareem as much credit as he deserves.


Be serious, do you really think a big time player like that is going to say Kareem did anything there to keep him from catching that ball when it hit him in his hands? Falcons fans would give him hell.

There was no major break up going on there, but he did enough to bother jones and we won. All this other stuff is foolishness.

 

[GP]

I can do even better!

I can show that as Jones's left elbow came down, it hit KJ's wrist (and stalled).
Jones' two arms (and hands) are no longer balanced (on the same horizontal plane), causing the ball to slip out of his grab.

Any wager for a beer or two, LOL!?!

With all due respect, when you see the job I'm posting to YouTube as I type this (the video is rendering in YouTube right now) you will see that your little red lines don't do much nor prove much.

I'm about to make the teacher the student here on this particular item.

I am about to prove to the jury that Julio Jones had the ball, and that KJ's hand was never (a) wrapped around a bicep, nor (b) pulling Julio's arm down, and (c) that KJ's arm remains in the same position and never moves down nor toward himself in a tugging motion.

In fact, in the slow-motion portion of my video analysis you can see that KJ's hand releases very easily. You can see a black space between KJ's hand and JJ's bicep...indicating that KJ had ZERO grip on the bicep.

KJ's hand was in there, but it played (drum roll, please....) NO part in Julio dropping the pass. He had dropped it almost as quickly as he had caught it. He snaps his own arms downward and cannot gather it in.

Video coming soon.

 

[GP]

Link to video is here.

It might still be rendering, though.

 

[badboy]

District attorneys dislike "eye witnesses". I know why.

 

[fiasco west]

Man no one but Julio knows how much impact KJs hand played.

Can we just end this and all admit that Kareem had a good day? That's what this all comes down to any ways. Some folks don't want to say it, he got the game ball and had a pretty good game against Julio Jones and I know a lot of folks expected otherwise.

He splits time with Allen sure but can some folks just admit the dude had a good game? He's on your favorite team, be happy that he's showing improvement.

 

[76Texan]

Link to video is here.

It might still be rendering, though.

LOL, I saw exactly what badboy said.
(I saw what I saw.)
When Julio's arms came down, the left hit KJ's, forcing the drop.

Even if Julio managed to hang on to the ball a little longer, when he came down further, the ball will hit KJ's hand (with fingers already touching).

Will he be able to hang on to the ball after that?
I don't even want to discus, because it didn't get to that point.

 

[GP]

LOL, I saw exactly what badboy said.
(I saw what I saw.)
When Julio's arms came down, the left hit KJ's, forcing the drop.

Even if Julio managed to hang on to the ball a little longer, when he came down further, the ball will hit KJ's hand (with fingers already touching).

Will he be able to hang on to the ball after that?
I don't even want to discus, because it didn't get to that point.

The most KJ did was a tiny "pinch" of Julio's bicep at the very end of the play.

It's funny how Julio's arms are snapping downward very quickly, but when you look at the screenshots....KJ's right hand stays in the same position the whole way down. It never moves off a horizontal line.

This indicates, IMO, that Julio is snapping his own arms downward (because he bobbled the catch) and he's chasing it downward while KJ's right hand stays in the same place not even affecting the play. If he was tugging, KJ's hand would be moving downward WITH, or even ahead of, Julio's own arm.

KJ got his arm in there, it just didn't do anything that Julio's own problematic hands were doing on their own already.

As soon as that ball touches Julio's fingers on both hands, he's already dropping it. The rest is Julio chasing it downward and never catching up to it.

I'll be interested to see if this is what others see.

 

[76Texan]

Man no one but Julio knows how much impact KJs hand played.

Can we just end this and all admit that Kareem had a good day? That's what this all comes down to any ways. Some folks don't want to say it, he got the game ball and had a pretty good game against Julio Jones and I know a lot of folks expected otherwise.

He splits time with Allen sure but can some folks just admit the dude had a good game? He's on your favorite team, be happy that he's showing improvement.

KJ continues to play more series and more snaps than Allen (about 14 more according to my count, including 2 (or 3) when they were on the field at the same time).

And again, Allen continues to receive more support overall (be it an extra rusher, underneath help (LB, safety) to tighten up the throwing window, or deep safety help.

Not on every single play, but if you look at all the snaps in all the games (against each different offensive personnel grouping), then you count the numbers of defenders on Allen's side (vs KJ).
Total up all the defenders on that side vs a particular offensive formation (personnel grouping) and divide by the number of snaps.
I GUARANTEE with you that Allen's number will be greater (ie., he has more help).

 

[76Texan]

The most KJ did was a tiny "pinch" of Julio's bicep at the very end of the play.

It's funny how Julio's arms are snapping downward very quickly, but when you look at the screenshots....KJ's right hand stays in the same position the whole way down. It never moves off a horizontal line.

This indicates, IMO, that Julio is snapping his own arms downward (because he bobbled the catch) and he's chasing it downward while KJ's right hand stays in the same place not even affecting the play. If he was tugging, KJ's hand would be moving downward WITH, or even ahead of, Julio's own arm.

KJ got his arm in there, it just didn't do anything that Julio's own problematic hands were doing on their own already.

As soon as that ball touches Julio's fingers on both hands, he's already dropping it. The rest is Julio chasing it downward and never catching up to it.

I'll be interested to see if this is what others see.

Why would KJ want to move his arm in unison with Julio?
The idea here is to affect the ball and/or one of the receiver's arm to make it as difficult for him to hang on to the ball as possible.

You want to seperate the receiver's arms and/or get contact with the ball to increase the difficulty level of the catch for the receiver.

 

[GP]

And again, Allen continues to receive more support overall (be it an extra rusher, underneath help (LB, safety) to tighten up the throwing window, or deep safety help.

Wow. You got a bad crush, 76. It's Bieber'esque.

You're going to sit here and say that Jason Allen is getting MORE help via lots of factors, and then you throw in some sort of mathematical equation of adding up players and formations and dividing it by number of snaps???????

It's "A Beautiful Mind" time around here, I suppose.

 

[GlassHalfFull]

Man no one but Julio knows how much impact KJs hand played.

Can we just end this and all admit that Kareem had a good day? That's what this all comes down to any ways. Some folks don't want to say it, he got the game ball and had a pretty good game against Julio Jones and I know a lot of folks expected otherwise.

He splits time with Allen sure but can some folks just admit the dude had a good game? He's on your favorite team, be happy that he's showing improvement.

Good Luck, I am all for it.

I would love to end this thread and start something positive.

I do think the fact that he got the game ball should carry more weight than message board opinions.

 

[ObsiWan]

That's IT!!
you two...
Pistols at dawn

 

[GP]

Why would KJ want to move his arm in unison with Julio?
The idea here is to affect the ball and/or one of the receiver's arm to make it as difficult for him to hand on to the ball as possible.

You want to seperate the receiver's arms and/or get contact with the ball to increase the difficulty level of the catch for the receiver.

Julio got two hands on the ball, 76, but just as soon as he touches that ball...he's already goober-smooching it away with or without KJ's hand there!

This is the whole point: KJ did NOT, ultimately, cause Julio Jones to do what Julio Jones had already done to himself. The rest of it is a MOOT point, to try and predict if he would have retained possession or not.

The whole headline being propagated is that KJ saved the day. He didn't. Julio Jones did. And before him, Matt Ryan and Roddy White.

We can give credit to players when they actively AFFECT the play and stop something. We shouldn't be giving credit to them when the opponent does it to themselves.

 

[LikeMike]

Alright I think we really are splitting hairs here - some are seeing a tiny motion by KJ that impacted the drop, the others are seeing KJ`s hand in there pulling after JJ drops the ball.

I think one thing is certain: without KJ right there, JJ makes the catch. Whether it is nerves, fear (KJ made a couple of big hits before) or KJ`s arm that caused the drop doesn`t really matter in the end.

It was a very catchable ball even with the things KJ did - if that was our JJ we would be on him as dropping another ball. BUT KJ did enough to make their JJ drop it. And in the end that`s all that matters.

Oh and by the way, JJ pushed off a little before he jumped - and personally I see KJ`s hand form into a firm grip the second JJ touches the ball. Not much of a pull, but he definetly did impact the play. Not a sensational play by KJ, probably not even a good but just a decent play - but he did get the job done and played a very good game before.

And one other thing is clear to me: if that was any other player than KJ we wouldn`t have this conversation. On Offense if we score because of a bad angle or bad coverage we wouldn`t have this kind of lengthy conversation. After last year KJ is still a person non grata to many fans and he plays under a microscope (as this thread shows) - and is often judged unfair. Let this kid develop and play.

 

[76Texan]

Julio got two hands on the ball, 76, but just as soon as he touches that ball...he's already goober-smooching it away with or without KJ's hand there!

This is the whole point: KJ did NOT, ultimately, cause Julio Jones to do what Julio Jones had already done to himself. The rest of it is a MOOT point, to try and predict if he would have retained possession or not.

The whole headline being propagated is that KJ saved the day. He didn't. Julio Jones did. And before him, Matt Ryan and Roddy White.

We can give credit to players when they actively AFFECT the play and stop something. We shouldn't be giving credit to them when the opponent does it to themselves.

1. Let's say Julio managed to hang on to the ball a little longer, there's nothing to indicate that he will be able to maintain possession of the ball throughout the catch as KJ's hand was in there.

2. It was not a catch as it was.

3. KJ got the game ball.

I WIN!

 

[GP]

You know, I sit here and put video AND photos together...showing that Kareem Jackson didn't affect the play...and it's deemed to be something we need to move on from, or that he got the game ball and that carries more weight?

OK. So much for objective analysis.

People also thought there should have been a penalty when the defender drove Yates into the ground. I can show video that displays Eric Winston missing the block completely and then catapulting the defender into Yates...effectively "blocking the defender" into Yates. But what would it be worth? It's easier to say "We got screwed on a non-call!" or "KJ was there and affected the play!"

Let's not discuss it. No, let's say what we feel and just roll with that. LOL.

 

[TEXANRED]

We need a pissing contest smiley.

Correct me if I am wrong but aren't we 3rd n pass defense?

 

[GP]

1. Let's say Julio managed to hang on to the ball a little longer, there's nothing to indicate that he will be able to maintain possession of the ball throughout the catch as KJ's hand was in there.

2. It was not a catch as it was.

3. KJ got the game ball.

I WIN!

Answers:

1. There's nothing that says he WON'T maintain possession and that he can't out-muscle a smaller Kareem Jackson who has only ONE HAND in there against another man's two arms. That's a poor argument, 76.

2. You're right, but you can't sit there and draw red lines and think that because Julio's elbow is lower than the other one that it means KJ was pulling that arm. Look at the FREAKING video in super slow-motion (the final slow motion clip) and you'll see it. The photos also show that KJ has no grip, is NOT pulling, and quite frankly his arm stays in the exact same position while Julio's arms snap downward CHASING THE BALL because he knew he screwed up at the beginning of the catch.

3. He got the game ball? Good for him. Now he should cut it in half and give the other half to Jason Allen. FTW.

 

[thunderkyss]

With all due respect, when you see the job I'm posting to YouTube as I type this (the video is rendering in YouTube right now) you will see that your little red lines don't do much nor prove much.

I'm about to make the teacher the student here on this particular item.

I am about to prove to the jury that Julio Jones had the ball, and that KJ's hand was never (a) wrapped around a bicep, nor (b) pulling Julio's arm down, and (c) that KJ's arm remains in the same position and never moves down nor toward himself in a tugging motion.

In fact, in the slow-motion portion of my video analysis you can see that KJ's hand releases very easily. You can see a black space between KJ's hand and JJ's bicep...indicating that KJ had ZERO grip on the bicep.

KJ's hand was in there, but it played (drum roll, please....) NO part in Julio dropping the pass. He had dropped it almost as quickly as he had caught it. He snaps his own arms downward and cannot gather it in.

Video coming soon.

I don't care if Kareem was standing 2 feet from Julio Jones & screamed boo with a real mean look on his face.

Kareem was there when the pass was broken up.

Period.

 

[HJam72]

After looking at GP's pictures and stuff, I believe KJ jumped in the air, caught the ball, and tried to hand it to the receiver before his feet touched the ground, but the receiver dropped the hand-off. KJ deserves the game ball for not successfully handing it off. :wadepalm:

 

[fiasco west]

You know, I sit here and put video AND photos together...showing that Kareem Jackson didn't affect the play...and it's deemed to be something we need to move on from, or that he got the game ball and that carries more weight?

OK. So much for objective analysis.

People also thought there should have been a penalty when the defender drove Yates into the ground. I can show video that displays Eric Winston missing the block completely and then catapulting the defender into Yates...effectively "blocking the defender" into Yates. But what would it be worth? It's easier to say "We got screwed on a non-call!" or "KJ was there and affected the play!"

Let's not discuss it. No, let's say what we feel and just roll with that. LOL.

The video is subjective. Some folks think his arm was knocked away and that was enough for Julio to drop the ball or some folks think otherwise.

You DO NOT know if KJ having his arm inside was enough for JJ to lose concentration. You simply do not know that, only Julio does and he would say he should have caught that because he's likely going to be a big time WR one day.

Also yes...him getting the game ball does carry more weight. It seems most on the team thinks he's playing well.

This all comes down to those against KJ not wanting to admit he's had a good game. Instead, focus on this one play and talk around the fact that KJ just had a good game.

 

[Texn4life]

This thread reminds me of the "too high" scene from Major League. "Who gives a *bleep*, its gone!" Or something like that.

 

[TEXANRED]

I don't care if Kareem was standing 2 feet from Julio Jones & screamed boo with a real mean look on his face.

Kareem was there when the pass was broken up.

Period.

Exactly. He gets kicked around all the time and now he gets a win and people wanna take that away and discredit him.

Dude gotta win. Good for him and great for us.

 

[drs23]

Sheesh people. Can we just agree to agree that the Texans aren't don't have the market cornered on "Stone Hands Jones"?

We have one.

The Birds have one.

Case f'kn closed.

That is all.

 

[fiasco west]

I don't care if Kareem was standing 2 feet from Julio Jones & screamed boo with a real mean look on his face.

Kareem was there when the pass was broken up.

Period.

And again...no one else was even around to make the play. I wish some would see that our hail mary defense didn't look so hot the last minute of that game instead of focusing on one player.

 

[76Texan]

Answers:

1. There's nothing that says he WON'T maintain possession and that he can't out-muscle a smaller Kareem Jackson who has only ONE HAND in there against another man's two arms. That's a poor argument, 76.

2. You're right, but you can't sit there and draw red lines and think that because Julio's elbow is lower than the other one that it means KJ was pulling that arm. Look at the FREAKING video in super slow-motion (the final slow motion clip) and you'll see it. The photos also show that KJ has no grip, is NOT pulling, and quite frankly his arm stays in the exact same position while Julio's arms snap downward CHASING THE BALL because he knew he screwed up at the beginning of the catch.

3. He got the game ball? Good for him. Now he should cut it in half and give the other half to Jason Allen. FTW.

We have already disagree on how we saw things.

Let me just add this:

Both nlf.com and Stats, LLC. (which provides stats for ESPN) credited Jackson with a pass defended.
(I had provided NFL.com line in one of the previous post.)
Notice that White/JJo was not recorded.


Atl 2nd&15 Hou30 Matt Ryan incomplete pass to the right intended for Roddy White.
Atl 3rd&15 Hou30 Matt Ryan incomplete pass to the left intended for Julio Jones defensed by Kareem Jackson.

 

[GP]

The video is subjective. Some folks think his arm was knocked away and that was enough for Julio to drop the ball or some folks think otherwise.

You DO NOT know if KJ having his arm inside was enough for JJ to lose concentration. You simply do not know that, only Julio does and he would say he should have caught that because he's likely going to be a big time WR one day.

Also yes...him getting the game ball does carry more weight. It seems most on the team thinks he's playing well.

This all comes down to those against KJ not wanting to admit he's had a good game. Instead, focus on this one play and talk around the fact that KJ just had a good game.

I never said he didn't have a good game. You're reading into things and putting words in my mouth.

I'm only talking about the last play, and have ONLY talked about the last play. Period.

It's like the whole "Is God Real?" debate. I believe in God, but am told that the burden of proof rests upon ME to prove God is real. Well, Julio Jones out and out DROPPED that pass and yet I'm supposed to prove that he could have maintained possession if he HAD caught it to begin with!

Like I said: He can give half of that game ball to the his co-worker.

It was a great gesture to give him the ball. Big whoop.

 

[GP]

We have already disagree on how we saw things.

Let me just add this:

Both nlf.com and Stats, LLC. (which provides stats for ESPN) credited Jackson with a pass defended.
(I had provided NFL.com line in one of the previous post.)
Notice that White/JJo was not recorded.


Atl 2nd&15 Hou30 Matt Ryan incomplete pass to the right intended for Roddy White.
Atl 3rd&15 Hou30 Matt Ryan incomplete pass to the left intended for Julio Jones defensed by Kareem Jackson.

The refs credited Yates with a fumble that flew 10 yards FORWARD, too, but it doesn't mean that's what happened. Next? Geez, you're having fun with stats again, huh?

You're reaching as much as KJ did, and coming up with the same thing: Nothing. But you got to post it, so it MUST be true!

 

[TEXANRED]

And again...no one else was even around to make the play. I wish some would see that our hail mary defense didn't look so hot the last minute of that game instead of focusing on one player.

Yeah! So when are we gonna end this Wade Phillips experiment?

 

[thunderkyss]

When Julio's arms came down, the left hit KJ's, forcing the drop.

76, do you think Kj could have played that better? Is there anything Kj could have done to prevent Julio from getting his hands on the ball at all?

With all due respect, when you see the job I'm posting to YouTube as I type this (the video is rendering in YouTube right now) you will see that your little red lines don't do much nor prove much.

GP, do you honestly think if Kj was not there at all.... say he fell down 4 yards outside the endzone, do you honestly think Julio would have dropped that ball?

Do you think Ryan would have thrown it high to begin with? Remember the Roddy White touchdown, would you have preferred Julio to run free in the endzone like that?

Wow. You got a bad crush, 76. It's Bieber'esque.

You're going to sit here and say that Jason Allen is getting MORE help via lots of factors, and then you throw in some sort of mathematical equation of adding up players and formations and dividing it by number of snaps???????

It's "A Beautiful Mind" time around here, I suppose.

Does anyone else see the irony here?