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Watson’s a top 5 qb. Do you agree?

dream_team

Hall of Fame
BOB did change what he wants to do to better fit DW4's skillset. Defenses have caught up to what DW4 wants to do.
I agree that BOB did make some changes to better fit DW4's skillset. But at the same time, I think there's even more he can do... and I think alot of the offense's problems are outside of DW's performance (ie. OL, play design, execution).

Because to win you have to be able to stay patient step up in the pocket and deliver a throw with accuracy/anticipation. You're 1st thought shouldn't be run Deshaun run.
I somewhat agree. I'd like for Deshaun to be more patient in the pocket. But at the same time, you don't want to take away one his best assets... his maneuverability. What makes him great is his ability to escape muddled pockets and make plays. There's a fine balance in there, somewhere, that he'll have to master.

You can design some plays to move him around some, but winning championships requires being able to read defenses and throwing from the pocket. Scrambling should be an option of last resort.
Is it ideal? yes. Is it a requirement? no. I think where DW needs to improve on is trusting his OL. But I can't blame him for having this lack of trust. The way I see it, for BOB's offense to be successful in this league, is that OL has to be top-tier.
 

dream_team

Hall of Fame
Dont forget Deshaun Watson doesnt know a thing about this "pocket passing" phenomenon. LOL (Watson had the leagues highest QB rating when kept clean in a "pocket")
Since it looks like we're simply going to run it back next season (no major changes), I think this will be the key to getting over that playoff hump. The OL needs to do a better job at producing clean pockets... AND DW4 needs to show he can trust his OL will hold up. IMO, this is our best hope of seeing a top 10 offense next season.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
This your opinion and you post it on a weekly basis and I will continue to agree to disagree with this opinion.

Out of curiosity, if all it takes to win championships is for a QB to be able to stay in the pocket and read defenses, why didn’t Marino win a championship? Why has Drew Brees won ONE in 19 years? What about Rivers?
I never said that's all it takes.

But it is a very important part. Something that DW4's not very good at and until he improves you can expect to see more of what we've seen the last 3 years.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
Dont forget Deshaun Watson doesnt know a thing about this "pocket passing" phenomenon. LOL (Watson had the leagues highest QB rating when kept clean in a "pocket")





But what does Steve Young know about football?? LOL
Young likes how BOB has developed DW4.


Yep,

BTW, I dont like how BOB's developed DW4.

Although I suppose he's done about all he can with what he has to work with.
 
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disaacks3

Moderator
Staff member
Young likes how BOB has developed DW4.


Yep,

BTW, I dont like how BOB's developed DW4.

Although I suppose he's done about all he can with what he has to work with.
Oh, I think the ceiling may have been reached alright...it's just we differ on who's ceiling we're talking about. I think O'Brien may have "adapted" as far as he can without All-Pro's everywhere on the O-Line.

We at least agree on not liking how O'Brien has developed DW4.
 

Uncle Rico

Ur apology should be as loud as Ur disrespect was

ObsiWan

Hall of Fame
Contributor's Club
Oh, I think the ceiling may have been reached alright...it's just we differ on who's ceiling we're talking about. I think O'Brien may have "adapted" as far as he can without All-Pro's everywhere on the O-Line.

We at least agree on not liking how O'Brien has developed DW4.
I'm still trying to identify any QB O'Brien has "developed"
goodness knows we've got a large enough sample size
 

RGV82

Random guy
So you are saying that those 4 NFL.com editors are the final word on everything NFL related? No other NFL editor, writer, columnist, or basically anyone involved in professional football matters? With millions of opinions on the top QBs in the NFL, why do you think those FOUR editors are the only rankings that matter?
 

Texecutioner

Hall of Fame
So you are saying that those 4 NFL.com editors are the final word on everything NFL related? No other NFL editor, writer, columnist, or basically anyone involved in professional football matters? With millions of opinions on the top QBs in the NFL, why do you think those FOUR editors are the only rankings that matter?
They aren't. It was a post that clearly lacked any logic or thought process.
 

RGV82

Random guy
Pff ranked Watson#9.



When you adjust for the terrible scheme he's top five easily. Don't listen to the negative Nancy's
That PFF list has Tannehill listed at number 4. Yeah, he had a solid ending to the season, but are you gonna tell me he’s the 4th best QB in the entire league? Absurd.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
That PFF list has Tannehill listed at number 4. Yeah, he had a solid ending to the season, but are you gonna tell me he’s the 4th best QB in the entire league? Absurd.
He did play much better than DW4 for the last 5 weeks of the season.
 

Mollywhopper

Facilitator
Staff member
My point was that any decent QB with game management skills could have done the same thing as Tannehill did during that stretch with the way Henry was shredding defenses.
I think that's still selling Tannehill short. He never had any help in Miami and he still maintained a decent level of production in spite of it. He goes to Tenn where he definitely was aided by a strong running game and scheme - one that Mariota nonetheless couldn't do anything with - and he didn't just do pretty well all of a sudden, he absolutely showed out. It doesn't pain me to simply give the guy his fair due.
 

ATXtexanfan

Hall of Fame
Tannehill was solid for the season. We will see next year in he keeps it up. He was a consistent and there when needed. I wont say hes better than DW4 but there is an argument for him there at four. This list based off the season.

And he was one of the last 4 qbs playing.

If I'm Tennessee I'm looking to do better than him next year or qb2 is a future investment
 

RGV82

Random guy
I think that's still selling Tannehill short. He never had any help in Miami and he still maintained a decent level of production in spite of it. He goes to Tenn where he definitely was aided by a strong running game and scheme - one that Mariota nonetheless couldn't do anything with - and he didn't just do pretty well all of a sudden, he absolutely showed out. It doesn't pain me to simply give the guy his fair due.
I don’t fully
Tannehill was solid for the season. We will see next year in he keeps it up. He was a consistent and there when needed. I wont say hes better than DW4 but there is an argument for him there at four. This list based off the season.

And he was one of the last 4 qbs playing.

If I'm Tennessee I'm looking to do better than him next year or qb2 is a future investment
I will not argue that Tannehill had a solid season, but investing too much in him would be a mistake. Without Derrick Henry, Tannehill would be average at best, and Derrick Henry is going to be seeking something along the lines of 6 years at 90 million.
 

ATXtexanfan

Hall of Fame
I don’t fully

I will not argue that Tannehill had a solid season, but investing too much in him would be a mistake. Without Derrick Henry, Tannehill would be average at best, and Derrick Henry is going to be seeking something along the lines of 6 years at 90 million.
Yeah tannehill basically a co pilot.
 

RGV82

Random guy
Oh Nooo!! We should trade Deshaun cuz he's 8th ranked TRASH!! -------------------> :kitten:
Even though it would never happen, I would LOVE to see a straight up trade 1 for 1 deal Deshaun Watson for Dak Prescott to see how each would fair with the other team.
 

Uncle Rico

Ur apology should be as loud as Ur disrespect was
Even though it would never happen, I would LOVE to see a straight up trade 1 for 1 deal Deshaun Watson for Dak Prescott to see how each would fair with the other team.
thats cruel and unusual punishment. Its not supposed to happen according to the Constitution, but seeing as how the current politicians are wiping their !@# with that sacred document it I'll humor you.

Prescott has had the luxury of having the best OL/RB combo in the NFL for a few years. I'd probably put Jason Garretts passing game on par with OBriens pathetic attempt at creating open receivers. Without the escapability that Watson offers, Prescott would be sacked even more than Deshaun has been. Without the run game? Without the blockers? Forget about it. On the other hand Deshaun would have thrived in Dallas - especially now with McCarthy. Deshaun with time to throw has already been graded as one of the highest ranked QBs in the NFL.

I do expect a great bounce back season from Prescott with McCarthy for the record, and Deshaun will have to play Jesus again next year.
 

dream_team

Hall of Fame
So you are saying that those 4 NFL.com editors are the final word on everything NFL related? No other NFL editor, writer, columnist, or basically anyone involved in professional football matters? With millions of opinions on the top QBs in the NFL, why do you think those FOUR editors are the only rankings that matter?
Sorry. I didn't know I had to put the sarcasm emoji.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
thats cruel and unusual punishment. Its not supposed to happen according to the Constitution, but seeing as how the current politicians are wiping their !@# with that sacred document it I'll humor you.

Prescott has had the luxury of having the best OL/RB combo in the NFL for a few years. I'd probably put Jason Garretts passing game on par with OBriens pathetic attempt at creating open receivers. Without the escapability that Watson offers, Prescott would be sacked even more than Deshaun has been. Without the run game? Without the blockers? Forget about it. On the other hand Deshaun would have thrived in Dallas - especially now with McCarthy. Deshaun with time to throw has already been graded as one of the highest ranked QBs in the NFL.

I do expect a great bounce back season from Prescott with McCarthy for the record, and Deshaun will have to play Jesus again next year.
Back to using JIC references I see.

You really want to go there? I'm more than willing to engage in the fun.
 

Corrosion

Idealist
Staff member
I agree that BOB did make some changes to better fit DW4's skillset. But at the same time, I think there's even more he can do... and I think alot of the offense's problems are outside of DW's performance (ie. OL, play design, execution).

I somewhat agree. I'd like for Deshaun to be more patient in the pocket. But at the same time, you don't want to take away one his best assets... his maneuverability. What makes him great is his ability to escape muddled pockets and make plays. There's a fine balance in there, somewhere, that he'll have to master.

Is it ideal? yes. Is it a requirement? no. I think where DW needs to improve on is trusting his OL. But I can't blame him for having this lack of trust. The way I see it, for BOB's offense to be successful in this league, is that OL has to be top-tier.

Honestly Watson can be his own worst enemy. Particularly relying upon the ability to escape those muddled pockets instead of either getting rid of the ball prior or getting outside before the fit hits the shan.

For most of the second half of the season teams used that ability against him - rushing only 4 while dropping 7 into multiple zone defenses while keeping him between the two widest rushers. They are gambling that they can force more punts than Watson can manufacture big plays. This worked because Watson will stand in that pocket until the very last millisecond because he believes he can escape more often than not.

This is why he was sacked so often and a big part of why this offense was so boom or bust all year - The OL was good enough for the most part. Many of those sacks are on Watson himself - Not the OL.
 

Uncle Rico

Ur apology should be as loud as Ur disrespect was
Houston gave up 49 sacks this year. Even when you take out the "sacks charged to the QB" which I would guess hovers from 7-14 range for Deshaun? (I couldnt find the data sry) it would still leave this "revamped and EXPENSIVE offensive line" somewhere in the middle of the pack on its best day if the NFL average is at 40 sacks per team.

Laying this at the feet of Deshaun Watson isnt encapsulating the full situation and is also disingenuous. Watson was ranked at 19th in TT (time to throw) https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/stats/passing#average-time-to-throw and yet many people propagate the "he holds onto the ball too long" narrative. Is he extending BROKEN plays? Yup. Does running around trying to make things happen sometimes blow up? Yup. It goes with the territory.

If the passing plays didnt take 3 seconds to materialize that would also be a novel concept. End of the day the offensive line is still pretty bad. Maybe another 2 first rounders would do the trick because if Deshaun starts throwing it away when the rush gets there VS when the pass routes break he would be crucified even more.
 

Uncle Rico

Ur apology should be as loud as Ur disrespect was
Sigh.

okay so lets talk about pressure rates and pocket time then since its going to get "dense" in here.

NFL reference has a different metric called "pocket time"

PktTime
▼ -- Average time the QB had in the pocket between the snap and throwing the ball or pressure collapses the pocket, in seconds
this metric has Watson at 15th. Far from top of the list or some pariah at the position who's bad internal clock is costing this team. Fiction. Fake news. Eye test failed you guys, time for a new prescription. https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2019/passing_advanced.htm (and on second glance look at the graph and notice how the curve goes from 2.3 - 2.7 seconds between ALL OF THE NFL. Doesnt seem to be this glaring HOuston Texan problem does it?)

Houston was sacked on 9.08% of dropbacks this year, an "improvement" from last years 10.48% https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/qb-sacked-pct

Again, even when accounting for Watsons fictional propensity to "hold on to the ball too long" its still blatantly evident where most of the "blame" can be attributed and Im sorry while Watson ended the year on a bad sack, and while he DOES have questionable plays during games it has gotten to the point where the dialogue shifts to wanting Watson to be perfect and the 3-4 plays per game where he doesnt feel the pressure or just makes a mistake himself is just too much to bear for some and we will operate under the make believe premise that the offensive line is fixed and its Watsons issues that is causing the pressure? No. I wont.

Dare we bring up the same situational mistakes ALL THE OTHER NFL QBs MAKE??? Of course not it wouldnt suit the argument would it?
 
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dream_team

Hall of Fame
Honestly Watson can be his own worst enemy. Particularly relying upon the ability to escape those muddled pockets instead of either getting rid of the ball prior or getting outside before the fit hits the shan.
That's a fair comment. He's so good at this, though, that you don't want to take it away. There's a better medium somewhere in there that he needs to find.

For most of the second half of the season teams used that ability against him - rushing only 4 while dropping 7 into multiple zone defenses while keeping him between the two widest rushers. They are gambling that they can force more punts than Watson can manufacture big plays. This worked because Watson will stand in that pocket until the very last millisecond because he believes he can escape more often than not.
I believe BOB's offense works better when you can trust the OL, especially when the other team isn't blitzing. We always talk about "taking what the defense is giving". If a team is only going to rush 4, and you have 6 pass protectors (including the RB), you have to trust the OL will hold up while waiting for guys to get open. IMO, the OL is still not a finished product and needs to get better.

This is why he was sacked so often and a big part of why this offense was so boom or bust all year - The OL was good enough for the most part. Many of those sacks are on Watson himself - Not the OL.
I disagree about the OL being good enough. I also believe there's alot that goes into giving up a sack and blame shouldn't be pointed at one individual unless you know how the play was designed. Once again, sure, Watson could have been sacked alot less if he simply chucked the ball out of bounds when he sees pressure. But you'll be eliminating what makes him great. That Taiwan Jones play doesn't happen, because honestly, the smart play would have been to chuck the ball once he realized he has free blitzers coming from both sides.
 

JB

Old Curmudgeon
Contributor's Club
Key to the season Imho gleamed from a link upthread

Key Offensive Stats

RZ Scoring %62.71%

Key Defensive Stats

Opp RZ Scoring %72.88%
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
Sigh.

okay so lets talk about pressure rates and pocket time then since its going to get "dense" in here.

NFL reference has a different metric called "pocket time"



this metric has Watson at 15th. Far from top of the list or some pariah at the position who's bad internal clock is costing this team. Fiction. Fake news. Eye test failed you guys, time for a new prescription. https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2019/passing_advanced.htm (and on second glance look at the graph and notice how the curve goes from 2.3 - 2.7 seconds between ALL OF THE NFL. Doesnt seem to be this glaring HOuston Texan problem does it?)

Houston was sacked on 9.08% of dropbacks this year, an "improvement" from last years 10.48% https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/qb-sacked-pct

Again, even when accounting for Watsons fictional propensity to "hold on to the ball too long" its still blatantly evident where most of the "blame" can be attributed and Im sorry while Watson ended the year on a bad sack, and while he DOES have questionable plays during games it has gotten to the point where the dialogue shifts to wanting Watson to be perfect and the 3-4 plays per game where he doesnt feel the pressure or just makes a mistake himself is just too much to bear for some and we will operate under the make believe premise that the offensive line is fixed and its Watsons issues that is causing the pressure? No. I wont.

Dare we bring up the same situational mistakes ALL THE OTHER NFL QBs MAKE??? Of course not it wouldnt suit the argument would it?
Do you even watch the games?
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
That's a fair comment. He's so good at this, though, that you don't want to take it away. There's a better medium somewhere in there that he needs to find.



I believe BOB's offense works better when you can trust the OL, especially when the other team isn't blitzing. We always talk about "taking what the defense is giving". If a team is only going to rush 4, and you have 6 pass protectors (including the RB), you have to trust the OL will hold up while waiting for guys to get open. IMO, the OL is still not a finished product and needs to get better.



I disagree about the OL being good enough. I also believe there's alot that goes into giving up a sack and blame shouldn't be pointed at one individual unless you know how the play was designed. Once again, sure, Watson could have been sacked alot less if he simply chucked the ball out of bounds when he sees pressure. But you'll be eliminating what makes him great. That Taiwan Jones play doesn't happen, because honestly, the smart play would have been to chuck the ball once he realized he has free blitzers coming from both sides.
Throwing the ball away is better than what he does great (Escaping) You cant make a living playing the way you're describing against top tier defenses.

What Corrosion is describing is why I would like for the Texans to go full bore RPO. DW4 struggles going through his progressions so the best thing to do is to limit the amount of progressions h has to go through.
 


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