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Watson’s a top 5 qb. Do you agree?

TheKDog

Hall of Fame
Contributor's Club
No one called him an offensive genius other than some Texans fans around the city. Other than that, the title of that is pretty much fake news.

OB never had a bad reputation what so ever in NE. What you're saying is simply not true. He was never ran out of NE.

Getting a HC job at a huge school like Penn State was a great opportunity for him. It was a difficult one based on what had just happened, but he took it and made the most of it.

You can pick apart his career here all you want, but his track record on those two places was positive. That's why the Texans and other teams not only had interest in him, but also why the Bob McNair paid a ton of money to get him out of his contract. His stock was high for a reason.
If you go to the pats message boards they had the same comments about his playcalling we have now .

And mcdaniels was brought in immediately even though obrien was still there and had not left for Penn State. The offense was better
 

Mr teX

Hall of Fame
If you go to the pats message boards they had the same comments about his playcalling we have now .

And mcdaniels was brought in immediately even though obrien was still there and had not left for Penn State. The offense was better
Now you're just arguing for the sake of arguing. You do realize Texecutioner is a huge pats fan as well? McDaniels was brought in immediately in part b/c he'd already been there before, he was or knew he was about to be fired by Denver, he was familiar with the NE system...... & Belichick probably already knew BoB was going to be leaving....

Citing MB fans commenting about playcalling is nothing new...fans on every single MB in america do that...IOW, water is wet & that's what they do.
 

TheKDog

Hall of Fame
Contributor's Club
Now you're just arguing for the sake of arguing. You do realize Texecutioner is a huge pats fan as well? McDaniels was brought in immediately in part b/c he'd already been there before, he was or knew he was about to be fired by Denver, he was familiar with the NE system...... & Belichick probably already knew BoB was going to be leaving....

Citing MB fans commenting about playcalling is nothing new...fans on every single MB in america do that...IOW, water is wet & that's what they do.
McDaniels is far better than obrien. That's why he replaced obrien immediately
 

TheKDog

Hall of Fame
Contributor's Club
O'Brien had interviewed with Penn St. and accepted that job before the 2011 postseason.

The Pats immediately brought McDaniels in because he had just been let go from St. Louis and they knew O'Brien was leaving after the playoffs.
He interviewed January 5. Josh McDaniels was hired a few days later and rumors of him coming back were before then.

I think he knew he was getting replaced. I don't see Patriots OC to Penn State in turmoil as an upward move
 

Mollywhopper

Facilitator
Staff member
He interviewed January 5. Josh McDaniels was hired a few days later and rumors of him coming back were before then.

I think he knew he was getting replaced. I don't see Patriots OC to Penn State in turmoil as an upward move
OB also had an interview scheduled with the Jags the week before that. The Pats already knew he was looking for a head coaching job.
 

TheKDog

Hall of Fame
Contributor's Club
OB also had an interview scheduled with the Jags the week before that. The Pats already knew he was looking for a head coaching job.
He never interviewed there in the end. He probably also knew they were trying to bring McDaniels back
 

TheKDog

Hall of Fame
Contributor's Club
So what he didn't interview? He interviewed with PSU instead.

The latter is sheer speculation on your part.
I didn't say not interviewing for the jags mean anything. But I think it's obvious McDaniels is a far better OC and belichick was gonna replace obrien with him.

I would find it hard to believe that belichick actually wanted to keep obrien as OC but obrien wanted the penn state job. Doesn't add up logically
 

Mollywhopper

Facilitator
Staff member
I didn't say not interviewing for the jags mean anything. But I think it's obvious McDaniels is a far better OC and belichick was gonna replace obrien with him.

I would find it hard to believe that belichick actually wanted to keep obrien as OC but obrien wanted the penn state job. Doesn't add up logically
Sure it does. He wanted to be a head coach and he felt like he could prove himself at PSU.

And the pats hadn't exactly been performing badly on offense in the years that he was calling plays there. That's not to say that their offensive performance was necessarily all thanks to OB, of course not. Just that he hadn't given Belichick so many reasons to can him.

I'm just looking at this objectively. I don't care whatsoever for O'Brien myself.
 

TheKDog

Hall of Fame
Contributor's Club
Sure it does. He wanted to be a head coach and he felt like he could prove himself at PSU.

And the pats hadn't exactly been performing badly on offense in the years that he was calling plays there. That's not to say that their offensive performance was necessarily all thanks to OB, of course not. Just that he hadn't given Belichick so many reasons to can him.

I'm just looking at this objectively. I don't care whatsoever for O'Brien myself.
Fair enough but the two years with obrien as playcaller were the only two years Brady has ever been one and done in the playoffs.

I remember people calling rex a genius on the Jets because he stopped the mighty pats. Turns out he just stopped obrien
 

Mollywhopper

Facilitator
Staff member
Fair enough but the two years with obrien as playcaller were the only two years Brady has ever been one and done in the playoffs.

I remember people calling rex a genius on the Jets because he stopped the mighty pats. Turns out he just stopped obrien
And the players have to make plays, including Brady and Deshaun.

Contrary to so much bickering there is actually more than just black and white to fault. Both parties are culpable.

Just going off of comments I think you seem to believe that Watson is utterly infallible.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
He interviewed January 5. Josh McDaniels was hired a few days later and rumors of him coming back were before then.

I think he knew he was getting replaced. I don't see Patriots OC to Penn State in turmoil as an upward move
Of course you dont
 

Texecutioner

Hall of Fame
If you go to the pats message boards they had the same comments about his playcalling we have now .

And mcdaniels was brought in immediately even though obrien was still there and had not left for Penn State. The offense was better
The Pats offense was tremendous with him. I'm a die hard Pats fan. I know. If it was bad, I'd have no problem destroying OB for it just like I do for his tenure here. Pats fans weren't all up in arms over OB either. Josh McDaniels had a great run there. The Pats went back after once he was getting released from the Rams and knew that OB was leaving for Penn State. They knew OB wasn't staying there for a big HC job. I understand that you don't like OB. I don't either at this point, but there is no reason to trash what he did at other places that helped him get his job here. If anything, your argument should be that he coached Tom Brady and that Brady just made him look good which is more likely the accuracy of the case.
 

TheKDog

Hall of Fame
Contributor's Club
And the players have to make plays, including Brady and Deshaun.

Contrary to so much bickering there is actually more than just black and white to fault. Both parties are culpable.

Just going off of comments I think you seem to believe that Watson is utterly infallible.
I don't believe Watson is infallible. In fact I didn't think he was a good pick because the scouting reports from college showing accuracy issues and average arm strength. I think those are real but overblown issues and his big play ability, quick release and ability to keep his eyes down field are fantastic.
 

TheKDog

Hall of Fame
Contributor's Club
The Pats offense was tremendous with him. I'm a die hard Pats fan. I know. If it was bad, I'd have no problem destroying OB for it just like I do for his tenure here. Pats fans weren't all up in arms over OB either. Josh McDaniels had a great run there. The Pats went back after once he was getting released from the Rams and knew that OB was leaving for Penn State. They knew OB wasn't staying there for a big HC job. I understand that you don't like OB. I don't either at this point, but there is no reason to trash what he did at other places that helped him get his job here. If anything, your argument should be that he coached Tom Brady and that Brady just made him look good which is more likely the accuracy of the case.
Fair enough, they had a good regular season offense 2 years with OBrien as playcaller. But it's also undeniable they were bad in the playoffs. Brady put up a 49 qbrating the first year (by far his worst) and then the next year against the Ravens the offense only scored 14 points.

As far as which happened first, O'Brien leaving or belichick telling him McDaniels was gonna take over, we can only speculate
 

Texecutioner

Hall of Fame
Fair enough, they had a good regular season offense 2 years with OBrien as playcaller. But it's also undeniable they were bad in the playoffs. Brady put up a 49 qbrating the first year (by far his worst) and then the next year against the Ravens the offense only scored 14 points.

As far as which happened first, O'Brien leaving or belichick telling him McDaniels was gonna take over, we can only speculate
You keep trying to create this narrative that O'Brien ruined their playoffs. It's totally not true, and this is has never been spoken anywhere on the Pats boards or NE media anywhere back then. They went up against a NY team that had a fantastic top D, and got out played by a team that knew them very well who O'Brien and Brady put up like 50 on earlier that year. If you're trying to blame O'Brien for the Ravens loss where Brady threw like 4 picks in that game, then that was the year he was coming off of an injury and wasn't the same until that very next season. The Pats went like 10-6 that season.

Brady had what was arguably his best season under O'Brien when he threw for 36TD's and 4 INT's. Their offense looked unstoppable all year and that was one of the top 3 Patriots teams in my opinion.
 

ATXtexanfan

Hall of Fame
Brady threw for 150 and a pick

He was very inaccurate.

Not a top 10 QB.....

Watson’s norm is elite. Y’all need to chill.
Lol your serious. On the road vs an undefeated team desperate to win against you because you own them.

Texans at home and got Charlie browned
 

Seegara

Guitar Picker, Dog Lover, Woodworker
I hate having to say it, but I'm afraid he's just going to be a so-so QB from now on now that teams have learned his weakness is reading blitzes.
 

Speedy

Yeller Dweller
Fair enough, they had a good regular season offense 2 years with OBrien as playcaller. But it's also undeniable they were bad in the playoffs. Brady put up a 49 qbrating the first year (by far his worst) and then the next year against the Ravens the offense only scored 14 points.

As far as which happened first, O'Brien leaving or belichick telling him McDaniels was gonna take over, we can only speculate
Honestly, I don't give a rat's ass what he did in NE, Paterno St, or anywhere else for that matter. I care about what he's done in Houston, TX. I dislike this guy because of what he's done here.

When the Texans hired him I was down for giving him a shot. He brought Fitz in, OK, stopgap, no problem. Then he swaps him out for Brian freaking Hoyer, and brings in Mallet, and can't figure out which one of those guys should be his starter until he finds out Mallet doesn't know what an alarm clock is. Then, long story short, year 3, year 4, year 5, nothing is different. Nothing is progressing. The talent eval is not there, the using the strengths of the talent you do have is not there. Hell, it looks like Watson is regressing instead of getting better.

And on top of all that, now he's the GM. He's already a poor talent evaluator, now he's in charge of determining draft and trade values?

This is on the McNair's more than anything. If Bill O'Brien is really good at anything, it's whatever he's selling the McNair's to get in the position he's at.

So yeah, my dislike of OB isn't because of NE, college, or that he wasn't high on my list of who I wanted before they hired him. I don't need to go dig up shit from what he did in NE to prove any points. My dislike of him is because of what he's done here the last 5+ years, and the fact that in those now 6 years, there's no progression, no moving of the needle. Just averaging along being average.
 

KarlK

Waterboy
Watson compared to the rest league...

20th Completions
16th Completion percentage
18th Yards passing
16th Touchdowns
12th QBR
13th 300+ Games
16th Yards/Attempt
19th Yards/Completion
-2nd Sacks

Some players were left out as they didn't play enough(imo).

https://www.lineups.com/nfl/player-stats/quarterback-qb-stats
Hilarious. He’s not even so much as top 10 in any statistical category, yet all the homers on here claim he’s a top 5 qb.

Delusion at it’s finest.
 

Double Barrel

Moderator / Admin
Staff member
Contributor's Club
Watson compared to the rest league...

20th Completions
16th Completion percentage
18th Yards passing
16th Touchdowns
12th QBR
13th 300+ Games
16th Yards/Attempt
19th Yards/Completion
-2nd Sacks

Some players were left out as they didn't play enough(imo).

https://www.lineups.com/nfl/player-stats/quarterback-qb-stats
Very interesting.

Watson has the potential to be top 5, but he needs an OC and scheme that is aligned to his strengths and talents. O'Brien and his "gameplan" scheme seem detrimental to that cause. He's going to break Watson before Watson can truly realize his full potential.

We've seen this movie before. . . :thinking:
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
Very interesting.

Watson has the potential to be top 5, but he needs an OC and scheme that is aligned to his strengths and talents. O'Brien and his "gameplan" scheme seem detrimental to that cause. He's going to break Watson before Watson can truly realize his full potential.

We've seen this movie before. . . :thinking:
Which is why BOB needs to go back to the first 7 games of Watson's career offense. Injury be damned, because they will never win anything with Watson running BOB's EP offense. Watson cant run the EP system.
 

austins23

Hall of Fame
Watson cant run the EP system.
I think Watson is talented enough to run any offensive system. I just think OB's "system" is not working. It just feels to me like everything is off schedule with this offense. Oline issues, Watson holding ball too long, etc. Johnson has been targeted TWELVE times in the passing game. Why can't OB get him more involved in the passing game? Why are the TE's damn near non existent? I just think OB is in over his head trying to game plan, call plays, and do everything else.

I'll agree to disagree with you about Watson not being able to run this offense.
 

Double Barrel

Moderator / Admin
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Which is why BOB needs to go back to the first 7 games of Watson's career offense. Injury be damned, because they will never win anything with Watson running BOB's EP offense. Watson cant run the EP system.
That's an interesting point to consider. There is clearly something off between O'Brien's scheme and Watson's implementation of it. Is O'Brien still running a quasi-Patriots EP scheme? Honestly, I don't recognize it when compared to the well-oiled and efficient machine that is the Patriots offense.

Brady has one of the quickest releases after the snap in football. They've got those players so well trained that the scheme is intuitive. Brady knows exactly where any given player will be at a given time, so he can get the snap, set himself, and release it.

I'm not seeing anything close to that type of efficiency with the Texas - ever. Pre-snap, they are not picking up blitzes, and when they do, they seem to be unable to consistently block them. And after the snap, the pocket collapses so quickly that Watson could negate it with a quick release, but I'm not seeing those quick routes available for him to make. So he holds the ball, waiting for something to develop, and he's starting to develop the happy feet and 'sounds of footsteps' that eventually dominated Carr after so many sacks, hurries, and hits.

I think Watson has much greater talent than Carr had, but he's still human and that tendency to expect to be hit is a natural result of constantly being under pressure.

I'd like to think that Watson could run the Pats EP system, but there just feels like so much off that I honestly can't tell. They always seem like they are trying to set up the homerun plays, but never an offense that can consistently make long scoring drives. Honestly, it just feels like O'Brien and Watson are not a good match much of the time.
 

TheKDog

Hall of Fame
Contributor's Club
Box score stats don't tell the whole story. I'd rather look at more advanced stats and I think be is. He and mahomes are the two best young QBs.
 

thunderkyss

Just win baby!!!
Staff member
Contributor's Club
Is O'Brien still running a quasi-Patriots EP scheme?
The EP scheme is just about terminology. Same as the WCO. Most teams run the same plays more or less, EP, WCO is just about how the players & coaches relate to those plays.

NYG, Patriots, Steelers all (at one time or another) utilized an EP offense, but they never looked like one another.

Pittsburgh was a big play offense that ran the ball a lot. New England used the short pass, in place of a run game, very similar to what many think of as a WCO.

Spread concepts, ZBS, RPO... all can be incorporated into WCO, EP, run & shoot, etc.
 

Double Barrel

Moderator / Admin
Staff member
Contributor's Club
The EP scheme is just about terminology. Same as the WCO. Most teams run the same plays more or less, EP, WCO is just about how the players & coaches relate to those plays.

NYG, Patriots, Steelers all (at one time or another) utilized an EP offense, but they never looked like one another.

Pittsburgh was a big play offense that ran the ball a lot. New England used the short pass, in place of a run game, very similar to what many think of as a WCO.

Spread concepts, ZBS, RPO... all can be incorporated into WCO, EP, run & shoot, etc.
NE's EP system is a bit different than the rest. Here is a great article about it:

Speak My Language
As the players and schemes have changed, it's the way the Patriots talk that's continued their offensive dominance
I would figure that O'Brien is trying to run the version of it he learned in NE. That's were he got the "gameplan offense" idea from, where they tailor the offensive scheme week-to-week based on the opponent's defense.

It works in NE over the years because they adapt it to their roster. When they had two TEs, they adapted it accordingly. Same with Randy Moss. Now they've got the smaller WRs and a running game, so they've adapted the scheme accordingly.

And this is the disconnect with O'Brien's current system. I'm not seeing a scheme that is adapting to the roster. Of course, when you read that article, what really pops out is Brady as a field general / OC-on-the-field. Perhaps it's not criticizing Watson to understand that he does not have the experience and is simply not Tom Brady.
 

Max

Veteran
BOB always seems to come into a season and be taken by surprise that his OLine sucks. He tries the fancy stuff on the chalkboard for 3-4 games and it never translates because his qb is taking a beating. Then goes back to the drawing board to fix the protection issues and adjust the offense accordingly. This takes a couple of games to fine tune and we have a better 2nd half of the season. Then we get clubbed in the playoffs because you can't beat the better teams with compensating protection schemes that don't allow a fully functional offense. He's never been able to sync up an offense with the OLine. This year is proving to be no different and once again, it's not all a talent issue. The blocking scheme isn't up to par with TE's pulling to block the opposite side DE and guys not handing off stunts properly or recognizing blitzes. The OLine scheme is BOB's achilles and that falls on him for not recognizing this and finding the OLine coach who can fix it.
 


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