Right, but nowhere was anyone needing to be suggested not a team first type of person.
You literally just brought that completely out of the blue to stand on for some reason.
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- Thread starter Wolf
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Right, but nowhere was anyone needing to be suggested not a team first type of person.
You literally just brought that completely out of the blue to stand on for some reason.
I seem to recall similar predictions regarding Kubiak's future when he was let go after 2-11.
You mean like in 2011 when we signed Johnathan Joseph and D. Manning in late July. ....the same year everyone was drooling over Nnamdi Asomugha being a F/A and we let him pass us by.Great. During the 3rd wave of FA, you should really be able to pick the bones of some real jewels in return for waiting for a dead man walking.
Naaah, we've NEVER found ANY quality free agents late in the process.
Texansphan
Football connoisseur
There were teams lining up to grab him with the recent rumours - who wouldn't want O'Brien - 3 winning seasons out of three as a new HC.
Texansphan
Football connoisseur
It is quite amusing watching some of the reactions to this quiet FA period by the Texans - one thing people fail to realize is that it is far from over.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Who wouldn't want him? - lol.
Wish he had jumped ship. The more his guys and 'system' get installed the worse the offense looks.
If he had bailed maybe we could have Baby Shanny now. An offensive coach that actually, you know, improves an offense. Instead we have a 400 lb cattle dog distracted from his bailiwick trying to ride herd on OB's really fast bag of cats.
PapaL
Loose Screw
A rookie HC that specializes in offense. Why does that sound familiar?
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Thing is Kubiak and Baby Shanny had NFL cred to carry into rookie HC. OB was temp 3rd fiddle in the Brady/Belichick Express.
Maybe more to the point, everywhere some coaches go you recognize the system almost instantly. Norv Turner, Kubiak, Shanny. Can anyone honestly say, other than nomenclature we don't hear, OB's E-P is recognizable to what NE runs? OK maybe if you believe in devolution and this is the 3 toed sloth common ancestor to NE and its inbred Tenessee 27th and a half cousin.
We have QB issues paramount certainly but our offense looks like Roscoe and Cletus' love child. No Daisy in sight.
Here's the question for all time - what would the Texans look like if Kubiak had been hired in 2002?
PapaL
Loose Screw
I don't think HWSNBN is the pick. Mostly because it felt like anyone could be decent in Kubiak's because he limited what the controlled and he loved running the ball behind that ZBS. I don't think Carr would be any better of a pro because of who he is.
kiwitexansfan
Hall of Fame
Let's see how baby shabby goes in SF before we crown his a$$
PapaL
Loose Screw
Losing that SB has to haunt him. Offense didn't do squat. Passed when they should have run.
How so?
Exactly. He had 20 years experience coaching at the college level. Worked his way up the Patriot's system in four years, then went back to the college level (albeit as a HC).
He hasn't actually built anything in the NFL like Kubiak, Shanahan, McCarthy, Payton, Arians, or Gase did before becoming a HC.
He'd have been much better off, I think, had he brought in a seasoned coordinator like he did for the defensive side of the ball.
Hard to say... I think he would have been butting heads with Casserly from the get go. I got the impression that Kubiak "fixed" a lot of things that Casserly screwed up. Bringing Rick Smith in, was part of that... Rick & our contract guy (I forget his name). But I think it took him about three years before he got the majority of the people on Kirby believing in a process that led to winning.
After the 2005 season I believe Bob McNair had to decide if the problem was related to the evaluation of the players, or the development of the players. Obviously he decided the development was the problem, & maybe the evaluation as well. He fired the HC, kept Casserly on. Kubiak came in, looked at our roster & probably started with the, "Why the heck did you trade those picks for that guy?" or "You're paying him what?" stuff.
But that 2006 draft is among our best so far, which shows (I think) Kubiak & Casserly could work together... so I don't know.
Good question though.
I think the "contract guy" is Olsen. Good post by the way!
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
Could have been a very very good explanation for these great "late" signings?, In fact, they were extremely early signings.
LINK
******
NFL lockout timeline
Interesting.
Walter Football's 2011 F/A recap shows signings as early as March 4th of that year. In fact, we resigned Owen Daniels on that date. The Patriots, Chargers, Saints, and others were reported to have made signings as of the 3/4/2011 update. Those include new F/A signings and, like us, teams who didn't want their free agents to get away so they re-signed them.
Taking the info from my post and yours, apparently free agent signings were suspended during the lockout period, which started on March 11th and effectively ended around July 21st (per the USA Today timeline). Therefore teams couldn't make any signings during the lockout, but they could have - and did - make free agent signings as early as March. Effectively, Manning and Joseph were signed during the 2nd or 3rd week of the available 2011 free agent period. Which is kind of where we are in the 2017 F/A timeline.
Hard to imagine it would have been materially different with Casserly and a rookie owner at the helm. At least for the first few seasons.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Big assumptions there.
Casserly admitted he knew nothing 3-4 and guessed what Capers wanted. 2006 draft was all Kubiak. Exceptio who Kubiak later admitted was a great pick Casserly suggested was OD.
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
Interesting.
Walter Football's 2011 F/A recap shows signings as early as March 4th of that year. In fact, we resigned Owen Daniels on that date. The Patriots, Chargers, Saints, and others were reported to have made signings as of the 3/4/2011 update. Those include new F/A signings and, like us, teams who didn't want their free agents to get away so they re-signed them.
Taking the info from my post and yours, apparently free agent signings were suspended during the lockout period, which started on March 11th and effectively ended around July 21st (per the USA Today timeline). Therefore teams couldn't make any signings during the lockout, but they could have - and did - make free agent signings as early as March. Effectively, Manning and Joseph were signed during the 2nd or 3rd week of the available 2011 free agent period. Which is kind of where we are in the 2017 F/A timeline.
Daniels was a restricted free agent again in 2010 (like he was in 2009), due to the uncapped 2010 year. He was upset and was given a nice healthy deal for 2010 after he threatened a holdout. The reason the Texans were in desperate mode to re-sign him in that short March window (they had no other signings then) was that the lockout would otherwise result in a decision to freeze all potential free agents in place for one more season with their current teams, with 2011 base salaries based on their 2010 pay plus a premium. Since Daniels was working under a cheap contract in 2010 (not in the top 51 on the Texans roster), he would have not doubt held out or be so pissed that he would have left the next year when he was no longer a restricted FA.
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CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
Not a ball hawk......at this time. But what a specimen! He could block the sun........and the view of the QB for most receivers.
Texans take in UConn safety Obi Melifonwu's Pro Day
By Aaron Wilson
Published 11:49 am, Wednesday, March 22, 2017
Connecticut defensive back Obi Melifonwu runs a drill at the NFL football scouting combine Monday, March 6, 2017, in Indianapolis. (AP Photo/David J. Phillip)
Connecticut safety Obi Melifonwu displayed his athleticism again Wednesday at his campus Pro Day workout, with the Texans in attendance.
Melifonwu had a 4.09 short shuttle, a 10.69 long shuttle and a 7.05 L-drill. He excelled in positional drills at cornerback and safety and drew praise from NFL scouts for his explosiveness and acceleration.
The 6-4, 224-pound cornerback-safety ran a 4.40 in the 40-yard dash at the NFL scouting combine where he registered a 44-inch vertical leap.
Melifonwu met with the Detroit Lions on Tuesday night. He's having lunch with the Carolina Panthers on Wednesday. Melifonwu is scheduled to visit the Pittsburgh Steelers, Seattle Seahawks and New Orleans Saints.
Melifonwu is regarded as a rising draft prospect who is expected to go in the first round and many teams like him at cornerback.
He played cornerback in the prestigious Senior Bowl all-star game and did well.
He met with the AFC South champion Texans at the Senior Bowl along with 14 other teams.
At the NFL scouting combine, Melifonwu had formal meetings with the Baltimore Ravens, Los Angeles Chargers, Atlanta Falcons, Seahawks, Washington Redskins, Arizona Cardinals, Denver Broncos, Kansas City Chiefs, Los Angeles Rams, Carolina Panthers and Indianapolis Colts.
He had 44-inch vertical leap. Melifonwu also registered an 11-9 broad jump and bench pressed 225 pounds 17 times.
Melifonwu's ascent as a draft prospect is reminiscent of Dallas Cowboys cornerback Byron Jones going in the first round after a strong workout circuit and playing at Connecticut.
Melifonwu had 118 tackles last season and four interceptions. A four-year starter, Melifonwu had six interceptions over the past two seasons and cut down on his penalties.
Texans take in UConn safety Obi Melifonwu's Pro Day
By Aaron Wilson
Published 11:49 am, Wednesday, March 22, 2017
Connecticut defensive back Obi Melifonwu runs a drill at the NFL football scouting combine Monday, March 6, 2017, in Indianapolis. (AP Photo/David J. Phillip)
Connecticut safety Obi Melifonwu displayed his athleticism again Wednesday at his campus Pro Day workout, with the Texans in attendance.
Melifonwu had a 4.09 short shuttle, a 10.69 long shuttle and a 7.05 L-drill. He excelled in positional drills at cornerback and safety and drew praise from NFL scouts for his explosiveness and acceleration.
The 6-4, 224-pound cornerback-safety ran a 4.40 in the 40-yard dash at the NFL scouting combine where he registered a 44-inch vertical leap.
Melifonwu met with the Detroit Lions on Tuesday night. He's having lunch with the Carolina Panthers on Wednesday. Melifonwu is scheduled to visit the Pittsburgh Steelers, Seattle Seahawks and New Orleans Saints.
Melifonwu is regarded as a rising draft prospect who is expected to go in the first round and many teams like him at cornerback.
He played cornerback in the prestigious Senior Bowl all-star game and did well.
He met with the AFC South champion Texans at the Senior Bowl along with 14 other teams.
At the NFL scouting combine, Melifonwu had formal meetings with the Baltimore Ravens, Los Angeles Chargers, Atlanta Falcons, Seahawks, Washington Redskins, Arizona Cardinals, Denver Broncos, Kansas City Chiefs, Los Angeles Rams, Carolina Panthers and Indianapolis Colts.
He had 44-inch vertical leap. Melifonwu also registered an 11-9 broad jump and bench pressed 225 pounds 17 times.
Melifonwu's ascent as a draft prospect is reminiscent of Dallas Cowboys cornerback Byron Jones going in the first round after a strong workout circuit and playing at Connecticut.
Melifonwu had 118 tackles last season and four interceptions. A four-year starter, Melifonwu had six interceptions over the past two seasons and cut down on his penalties.
TheRealJoker
Hall of Fame
Melifonwu would be a wonderful addition to the team. Screw. shoring up the offense with a defense like that!!!
Melinfonwu looks to be had somewhere mid-first to late second, and I don't think that's a spot where I want to get a work-in-progress box safety. Not in lieu of addressing our obvious concerns at OL and QB, or simply more complete players.
Maybe, but Capers wasn't a rookie HC and Kubiak obviously would have been. Maybe Capers was completely incompetent, but he has done pretty well in GB building a defense. If he with HC experience couldn't draft a defensive player 1/1, then I doubt a rookie HC would change having David Carr be the face of the franchise.
I just have a hard time believing that McNair and Casserly would have gone another way for the very first pick for the franchise.
Interesting scenarios to think about in any event.
I think David Carr would have worked out a lot differently with father figure Kubiak bringing him along in the NFL.
I think he would have been gone sooner. Lack of work ethic not likely to please Kubiak enough to keep him around and he definitely would not have put up with Papa hanging around
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
Scooter
Funky
The GB defense has gotten worse during Dom's tenure. Capers was brought in for 2 reasons. 1 - Kubiak turned down the job. 2 - Dom had experience with an expansion franchise. Kubiak's history would suggest he takes Banks as his leader, with Peppers as the #1 pick, and the rest gets complicated (I don't remember the young potential trades and FA's of the time). It's hard to assume he'd take 2 busted offensive linemen in the expansion for any reason. There is no telling where things would've gone - though I'm pretty sure Glenn, Coleman, Sharper and some others are on the team.
Scooter
Funky
I think the reverse, Carr would've learned what it took to be a professional before taking a live snap (a year or two later). Kubiak's 'aww shucks' attitude is at the podium, not on the field. David wouldn't have had the opportunity to be a lazy first rounder with his dad on the sidelines, it would've been beat out of him - possibly literally. I really wish I could find the quote of John Lynch talking about Gary Kubiak's potential as a head coach and what happens during practice ... it was a statement that was as much fear as it was respect. "When Kubes started yelling ..."
Edit: There was a former quarterback who went to the radio stating that Kubiak was much too tough on his quarterbacks. If Kubiak were the original coach, he wouldn't have selected Carr if he thought David couldn't handle the NFL, and if selected, the sad broken lazy uninterested Carr we know would've been a wildly different player.
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You realize that Capers has been the DC for Green Bay since 2009 correct? Sheesh.
Scooter
Funky
Do you? 2009 and 2010 were big defensively under Capers with someone else's team and exceptional health if I remember correctly. Green Bay has had the biggest offense and best qb in the nfl for most of the past decade, and cant field a defense strong enough to survive the relatively weak NFC.
Texansphan
Football connoisseur
Agree.
With a QB like Rodgers, they have had plenty of time to build a team around him and become a force ala Patriots.
Can you imagine how good Texans would have been with Rodgers under center in that time?
I think the PR department made the decision to draft David Carr. If Kubiak took the job in 2006 with the caveat that he gives Carr a shot... I think he would have toted the company line in 2002.
David Carr was not lazy. He just prioritized things differently. I think Kubiak & his four rings could have helped Carr to early success, & learn how to do the work he needs to do while still enjoying a full family life.
David Carr would have been a better Plummer had he came into the league with Kubiak & Dennison leading the way.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Thunderkyss is right that we don't know what Kubiak could have made David if given from the get go. We know he decided quickly it wasn't going to work 5 years later...
What's really curious to me in this alternate universe is does Kubiak take Big. Ben instead of Dunta. I think he would have decided by 2 years and Carr either would have been a different QB or he would have been gone.
Scooter: Kubiak didn't turn the Texans down. Maybe one of our esteemed board members who would know can expound upon this.
I' not a Kubiak HC fan but am a Kubiak the person fan and wish he would've been hired instead of Capers. We (Fans) would've been treated to much better QB play over the yrs.
McNair said in the press after interviewing Kubiak that he had a great interview with Kubiak, but didn't think Gary was ready to be a HC yet. That was a bad move by McNair in hindsight. Kubiak's A&M military single minded approach would've been perfect for the expansion franchise.
I' not a Kubiak HC fan but am a Kubiak the person fan and wish he would've been hired instead of Capers. We (Fans) would've been treated to much better QB play over the yrs.
McNair said in the press after interviewing Kubiak that he had a great interview with Kubiak, but didn't think Gary was ready to be a HC yet. That was a bad move by McNair in hindsight. Kubiak's A&M military single minded approach would've been perfect for the expansion franchise.
Scooter
Funky
It was Kubiak that said he wasn't quite ready to be a head coach yet if I remember correctly.
After McNair hired Kubiak he said that about the first time he interviewed in 2002. Saying McNair didn't screw up going with Capers the first time. Basically coach speak.
TxnsJuggernaut
Veteran
IIRC, the Panthers went to the NFCCG in their first year. They had very favorable expansion terms and parlayed that into a damn good team. That's why he was hired. Jacksonville also had a great season. NFL said not again and changed the game for the Texans.
2006 Kubiak would have had Banks start from day 1 and let Carr set, if he had a voice. 2002 Kubiak I'm not so sure. New owner wanted face of the franchise out there. He may have got something more out of Carr but I doubt it. Carr didn't want to be first in/last out and even then Kubiak knew he needed that. He had watched the best for so long he would have figured out Carr quickly. Maybe quickly enough. Our defense probably would have been terrible though
:
TxnsJuggernaut
Veteran
I just don't get the Kubiak love on this board.
That's okay though.
Myself, I don't get it.
That's okay though.
Myself, I don't get it.
Kubiak had a lot of faults... the offensive game wasn't one of them. At least it looked great compared to what we've seen the last 3 years
TxnsJuggernaut
Veteran
True but his offense took a downward turn before he was fired from our Texans.
In Denver his offense never resembled that of his time with Schaub here and as the offensive coordinator with with the Ravens and Joe Flacco in Baltimore. I realize Gary never had any quarterbacks worth a flip with our Texans after Schaub's downfall and in Denver he got Peyton Manning after he basically was broken down and got more out of Brock Osweiler than Bill O'Brien could. Still, for some to think he was some kind of quarterback whisperer, I just don't see it. He may have brought the best out of what he had to work with but he was no miracle worker.
As far as David Carr, I just don't see this big improvement from him had he started his career under Gary Kubiak. At least not in the sense that he was the immediate starter for an expansion team with a weak offensive line. Had David had a solid veteran quarterback ahead of him for two or three seasons and also the tutalege of Gary Kubiak or someone of his nature known for offense, I do think it would have helped.
Gary was a good head coach for a time while with the Texans and I will give him some credit for playing a role in the Broncos winning a title. It does not hurt that he inherited a team full of talent that was mostly healthy for his Broncos Super Bowl run. John Foxes Broncos team did seem soft. Perhaps the best coaching Gary did was not so much X's and O's as it was his ability to inspire his players.
I also think Gary could have gotten things back in order here if he would have had a quarterback he could work with.
There is some revisionist history going on, but time and a different location have proven that he might have been better than the 2-14 last season and overall average record that he posted with the Texans. Still don't think he is a "great" coach, but not awful either.
Interesting that he no longer gets "credit" for Rick Smith in some eyes as well.
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.co...n-real-excited-about-working-with-tom-savage/
As they 'should" Savage is being talked up.
As they 'should" Savage is being talked up.
PapaL
Loose Screw
Is that coach talk for "anyone is better than the clown we had before"?
frethack
Rookie
Our offense was a thing of beauty to watch when Foster arrived and was healthy. My biggest complaint (aside from predictability, which apparently is still an issue) is that Kubiaks offense left us undersized on the OL and at TE, and we were noticeably slower at every skill position compared to other good NFL teams.
IMHO we are still pulling ourselves out of that particular hole. Id be interested to research if teams that use the ZBS exclusively for long periods experience the same thing.
Flyingfish
Waterboy
Quite possibly the biggest failures of Kubiak's coaching tenure with the Texans was his inability to evaluate, attract and hire competent coaches. He finally had to have Wade Phillips forced on him to fix the defense. His OC (yes-men) selections were no better. Couple that with the coaching staff's inability to adapt gameplans. Half-time adjustments appeared to be no more than straightening out loose pages in the playbook or making sure his "Denny's Menu" was folded correctly. Finally, loyalty is a great thing, but Kubes carried it too far, protecting an underperforming general manager, assistant coaches and players - Matt Schaub in particular. Not selecting and grooming a QB for the future, or making a run at Manning because it would "upset Schaub" is still one of the most damming aspects of Kubiak's tenure.
For a smart guy, he made some real bone-head mistakes that eventually cost him (and the Texans). Yes, he got a ring in Denver, but when the team was facing a rebuild, Kubes and staff were sent out to pasture.
For a smart guy, he made some real bone-head mistakes that eventually cost him (and the Texans). Yes, he got a ring in Denver, but when the team was facing a rebuild, Kubes and staff were sent out to pasture.
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
Texans owner Bob McNair: Trading Brock Osweiler was 'a shocker'
"You can't talk to them before they become a free agent. You can't work them out. We didn't know him that well," said Texans owner Bob McNair of Brock Osweiler. AP Photo/David J. Phillip
8:20 PM CT
HOUSTON -- Houston Texans owner Bob McNair told reporters Monday that he was shocked general manager Rick Smith was able to pull off the trade that sent quarterback Brock Osweiler to the Cleveland Browns earlier in the month.
"It was a shocker for me," McNair said at the NFL owners meetings, according to the Houston Chronicle. "I couldn't believe that Rick was able to pull it off. ... It's unbelievable. Everybody around the league, their jaws are still hanging open.
"It's something no one thought [about], and I think other people have looked at that, and they've been trying to do the same thing without success."
The trade that sent Osweiler, a 2018 second-round pick and a 2017 second-round pick to Cleveland for a 2017 fourth-round pick will save the Texans $10 million in salary-cap space and $16 million cash.
The Texans signed Osweiler to a four-year, $72 million contract on the first day of free agency a year ago, but in his first year in Houston, he struggled. In 15 regular-season games, Osweiler completed 59 percent of his passes for 2,957 yards, 15 touchdowns and 16 interceptions.
On Monday, McNair said looking back, because of how free agency works, the Texans and head coach Bill O’Brien didn’t know Osweiler well enough before signing him to the huge contract.
"We didn't know Brock well enough," McNair told the Houston Chronicle. "Coach [Bill O'Brien] didn't have a chance to get to know him.
"That's one of the problems with free agency. In the draft, we're able to bring them to Houston, sit down with them, watch them interviewed by a bunch of coaches, and you have time to check them out.
"You can't talk to them before they become a free agent. You can't work them out. We didn't know him that well."
"You can't talk to them before they become a free agent. You can't work them out. We didn't know him that well," said Texans owner Bob McNair of Brock Osweiler. AP Photo/David J. Phillip
8:20 PM CT
- Sarah BarshopESPN Staff Writer
HOUSTON -- Houston Texans owner Bob McNair told reporters Monday that he was shocked general manager Rick Smith was able to pull off the trade that sent quarterback Brock Osweiler to the Cleveland Browns earlier in the month.
"It was a shocker for me," McNair said at the NFL owners meetings, according to the Houston Chronicle. "I couldn't believe that Rick was able to pull it off. ... It's unbelievable. Everybody around the league, their jaws are still hanging open.
"It's something no one thought [about], and I think other people have looked at that, and they've been trying to do the same thing without success."
The trade that sent Osweiler, a 2018 second-round pick and a 2017 second-round pick to Cleveland for a 2017 fourth-round pick will save the Texans $10 million in salary-cap space and $16 million cash.
The Texans signed Osweiler to a four-year, $72 million contract on the first day of free agency a year ago, but in his first year in Houston, he struggled. In 15 regular-season games, Osweiler completed 59 percent of his passes for 2,957 yards, 15 touchdowns and 16 interceptions.
On Monday, McNair said looking back, because of how free agency works, the Texans and head coach Bill O’Brien didn’t know Osweiler well enough before signing him to the huge contract.
"We didn't know Brock well enough," McNair told the Houston Chronicle. "Coach [Bill O'Brien] didn't have a chance to get to know him.
"That's one of the problems with free agency. In the draft, we're able to bring them to Houston, sit down with them, watch them interviewed by a bunch of coaches, and you have time to check them out.
"You can't talk to them before they become a free agent. You can't work them out. We didn't know him that well."
Speedy
Former Yeller Dweller
And every coach we'll ever have will have faults....well, unless there's another Belichick out there somewhere.
Funny what people see. You do realize Kubiak had top 5 offense 7 of his 11 years as Denver's OC and a top 10 scoring offense in 10 of those 11 years, right? And that's with Elway contributing to just 4 of those seasons with the rest under Griese and Plummer.
Jake Plummer came to Denver with a passer rating of 69 with 90 TD, 114 INT and had an 88.1 with 60 TD, 34 INT under Kubiak. Brian Griese was never very good, but he was a lot better under Kubiak than anywhere else he went.
Then of course he had Matt Schaub as a top 8-12 QB and Joe Flacco had his best season to date in just 1 year with Kubiak. Hell, he even made Osweiler look halfway decent.
Kubiak's track record with QBs is plain to see, so I'd strongly suggest getting those eyes checked if you still can't see it.