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Texans / Lamar Jackson SI article
- Thread starter Generic Fan
- Start date
badboy
Hall of Fame
Often they are running away from
Opponents trying to tackle them and often they get a clear passing opportunity.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
Often they are running away from opponents trying to tackle them and often they get a clear passing opportunity.
Y'all keep trying to lump him in as an early Vick type who couldn't pass the ball....or as a VY type whose only asset is that he can run it really well...He's not.
Generic Fan
He's just this guy, you know?
You keep trying to pretend that he hasn't been hurt the last 2 years and that GM's don't know he has not finished the last 2 seasons.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
Hurt in the pocket...not running...which is the narrative you keep pushing & it has next to no relevance as to why he hasn't been paid. & If him running and the injury concerns were as significant of deal as you're trying to play them up to be, they wouldn't even be offering him what they did..........let alone signing an injury prone WR like obj for 15 million to potentially play with him.
Generic Fan
He's just this guy, you know?
I didn't push the narrative that he was hurt running.
I am saying if there are already injury concerns around him, the fact that he runs more than a normal pocket passer only increases the odds for future injury. Do you think it doesn't increase the odds for injury? If so, please explain.
sandman
Brexit Advisor
Brother, no one has called him VY. And the Vick comparisons from a running QB are justifiable.
He averaged 208 yards per game passing and 80 yards per game rushing when he won the MVP. There is no way he is considered an MVP without the record setting 1,206 rushing yards.
He has two of the top 4 QB rushing seasons in the history of the league and four of the top 14. All five of his pro seasons, including his rookie year where he only started 7 games, and the last two seasons where he only played 12 games, rank in the top 22 all time.
In his four full years as a starter, he has averaged 70 rushing yards per game. His current career pace should he play a full 17 game season would have him average almost 1,200 yards a season. 20% of his career TD's have come as a runner (in comparison, Wilson who is the only active QB with more rushing yards is at 8%).
In 24 more games if he maintains that 70 YPG average he will become the all-time QB rushing leader. In less than 7 total seasons where he already missed 12 games. Everyone in front of him (Vick, Newton, Wilson, Cunningham) played a minimum of 11 seasons.
He is literally redefining what a running QB looks like in this league, averaging less than 190 passing yards per game in two of the last three seasons.
I'm not saying he is a run-first QB. But I am saying that his passing statistics don't stand on their own merit when talking about an elite QB. Which you can't say for his contemporaries in Mahomes, or Allen, or Burrow. It's always in comparison to running QB's like Vick and Cam. Even Wilson who will surpass 5,000 rushing yards this season is a prolific passer, with his worst season in passing yards (3,111) was almost exactly what Jackson's best season was (3,127) in his MVP year.
His passing production does not justify the payday he is seeking. His dual threat capability and actual rushing production might. You can call it the system or surrounding talent, but I can understand where owners may not want to give $240 million guaranteed to him.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
No i don't. Look around the league man. There's 3 guys who were injured in the commission of actually running the ball. Trey Lance, Jalen Hurts and Kyler Murray. Seems like its alot but when weighed against the number of guys injured by being hit in the pocket its nothing. Jimmy G, Brock Purdy, Tagovailoa, Jackson are all guys who missed games b/c of it, but we know Herbert, Mahomes and countless other guys who were knocked out of or were seriously injured & weren't running. That's b/c they're sitting ducks back there & are unprotected when in the commission of throws.
As far as Lamar....He ran wild for 4 years and didn't get close to getting injured when running. I think what you're talking about applies to guys who don't know how to run, slide and get down & get out of bounds. He does & the risk of injury is about the same for him as if he were a pure pocket passer. If you've watched him play, he actually takes harder, more brutal hits when he's sitting in the pocket than when he runs.
But his sitting in the pocket won't earn him the payday you insist teams should be offering him
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
Vick couldn't pass the ball for **** in his early years & Even with Lamar's passing numbers being lower than his contemporaries, he's still shown to be a much more competent passer than Vick ever was early in his career. Vick also had Roddy White early in his career. Burrow has Chase, Higgins and Boyd. Mahomes had Hill and Kelce. Who has Lamar had to really compare to any of those guys & help develop him as a passer so that its an apples to apples scenario? You guys keep wanting to use his lack of passing numbers against him, but most of why those numbers are blunted is at least in part b/c the Ravens have surrounded him with **** at WR and the playcalling has been unimaginative. He's only being compared to Vick b/c of how electric he is as a runner from the position...nothing more nothing less.
Owners are only using his passing numbers to justify not paying him whatever he's asking for b/c that's really the only leverage they have at this point.
The conversation started with you insisting that the owners were colluding to not offer him a contract as a top QB will receive
others are just trying to show why he isn't worth it
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
there is collusion & that's pretty clear. & thus far the talking points raised aren't really valid. If all you have is a bogus narrative about him being more prone to being hurt than his pocket passing contemporaries..when the data shows otherwise..................& that his passing numbers aren't up there with his contemporaries citing his low high-water mark in passing yards from the year in which he won MVP.......there's really no case you can make.
Bullshit, that's just your opinion that is not shared by many
Collusion conspiracy is just an easy out, especially when there is no proof of it.
I doubt any team would hesitate to give up draft capital and 100% contract guarantees to Mahomes, Allen, or Burrow.
I like Lamar, but I'm not putting him in the same elite level as those three QBs.
And that's what these teams perceive. They do no perceive him as a talent that is worth the investment. If they did, this thread would not exist.
sandman
Brexit Advisor
Even in college his rushing attempts (655 total over three seasons) accounted for 40% of his plays. He rushed for over 1,500 yards in two different seasons. He had 69 passing TD's and 50 rushing TD's.
His junior year he wasn't in the Top 15 QB's for yards, TD's or QB rating. But he was the 5th best running back in the nation.
His 4,132 rushing yards in college would rank him second among QB's all time.
There are only 12 active RB's in the NFL that have more career rushing yards than Jackson has after only 5 seasons in the league.
He might be the only QB in history to finish top 5 in rushing yards in both an NCAA and NFL season.
But you are right. He isn't a running QB.
TL;dr - Lamar ran in college. Lamar runs in the pros. Lamar runs.
How do you define collusion? Do you know the “legal” definition?
just looking at the numbers reported, Lamar was offered a contract in-line with the other top QBs in the league not named Watson. That doesn’t sound like collusion to me. Sounds like fair market evaluation while kicking out the obvious outlier.
Lots of Lamar talk for 25 minutes
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
There’s plenty of folks actually in the know who believe its collusion…most of which have direct experience in dealing with the owners. They’re clearly colluding to stop the long term fully guarantee contracts for players from getting further down the line. But whatever..there’s “no proof”…lol
you guys are arguing on the grounds of semantics..”oh, well you can’t legally prove it, so it’s probably not”…lol. funny b/c the same legal standard wasn’t used in that cluster&@#% of a situation with DW4…then it was “where there’s smoke, there’s fire if 24 women said he did it…” lol.
Yup, CLEARLY it wasn’t collusion tho when apparently none of these qb starved teams were “unwilling” or didn’t think it was worth it to bring in Kaep ……..conveniently after the whole kneeling situation and lawsuit…but were willing to pluck bum ass Case Keenum out of a deer blind….& would apparently rather trot out bums like Taylor Heineke and give Carson Wentz chance after chance to flounder….no collusion there. They just thought those guys were a better than a qb who’d led his team to a SB just a few years pior..
Kaep has nothing to do with it and you bringing that up is weak sauce and just shows you're going to keep arguing the point that no one but you cares about. Let it go man
sandman
Brexit Advisor
There’s plenty of folks actually in the know who believe its collusion…most of which have direct experience in dealing with the owners. They’re clearly colluding to stop the long term fully guarantee contracts for players from getting further down the line. But whatever..there’s “no proof”…lol
you guys are arguing on the grounds of semantics..”oh, well you can’t legally prove it, so it’s probably not”…lol. funny b/c the same legal standard wasn’t used in that cluster&@#% of a situation with DW4…then it was “where there’s smoke, there’s fire if 24 women said he did it…” lol.
Yup, CLEARLY it wasn’t collusion tho when apparently none of these qb starved teams were “unwilling” or didn’t think it was worth it to bring in Kaep ……..conveniently after the whole kneeling situation and lawsuit…but were willing to pluck bum ass Case Keenum out of a deer blind….& would apparently rather trot out bums like Taylor Heineke and give Carson Wentz chance after chance to flounder….no collusion there. They just thought those guys were a better than a qb who’d led his team to a SB just a few years pior..
What you call collusion, other people call a disconnect between perceived and actual value.
No one is trying to keep Jackson out of the league. They just don't think he is worth his asking price.
That's been their MO from the beginning. That's a commonly held belief for the health of the league... right or wrong, that's what they believe, that's how they are acting.
Collusion would be if someone called every owner & they all agreed to act this way for this purpose. They never wanted guaranteed contracts.
I agree. Something happened there, but it wasn't collusion. Collusion is a specific legal term. None of the teams can be found guilty of collusion against Kaepernick. None of these teams can be found guilty of collusion against Jackson. No charge will ever be formally levied... because it was not collusion.
Unfair... maybe. Definitely something for that weakaz NFLPA to work out. But nothing legal, since it's not collusion.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
He’s really not. You’re proving my point tho in a roundabout way in how owners like to play games when it comes time to pay these guys what they're worth. Running qbs have negative connotations attached to them b/c the underlying assumption is that that's all they can really do & there's supposedly a higher risk of injury etc..etc.…this goes way back well before Lamar & owners have used this very moniker & others against guys in the past to pay them less....A similar dynamic played out with Deebo and the 49ers. They tried to use his versatility & the brutal nature of being able to play RB from the backfield from time to time to pay him as a RB....which is less than what they would have to pay him if they were to pay him as the WR that he is listed as.....They weren't complaining about or raising this issue while he was lining up in the backfield & making plays for them tho.
Similarly here..Its easier for you to attach the moniker of him being a running qb & cite his rushing attempts and yards to justify your stance on what you percieve his worth to be...which is less than his pocket passing counterparts. There's just 1 problem. You don't accidentally pass for nearly 40 TDs in a season as a "running" qb. There's a difference being a run-only effecitve qb...& being a qb who can run it really well, but be equally adept at passing it. The latter is LJ8. So what it boils down to for the owners is they want to penalize him for being better at running the ball than his contemporaries are.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
It ain't weak sauce....its an example of how these owners have and continue to collude without any "proof"...
"Care" is a strong word....I don't really care except for the fact of how these owners & some posters like to pull the double standards out when its convenient. Trust i'm good bro..this is good dialogue for me & i enjoy talking about this more than rehashing over and over what the Texans are going to do with the #2 pick..or what QB they're taking...
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
Until he comes out and actually states what that is instead of what the reports are, noone can really comment on what his asking price is.
Then how can anyone meet it?
Carr Bombed
Hall of Fame
How people (Tex) forget crappy Colin was on his way to being benched/cut without the kneeling crap. He lost a ton of weight and was a shell of himself. Your talent level dictates how much crap a team is willing to put up with.. With Colin the juice was no longer worth the squeeze/headache.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
So you agree then it is collusion....Just b/c its been their MO from the beginning doesn't make it any less so. They thought that the issue of fully guaranteed contracts would go away if they just continued to give these guys more guaranteed money on contracts that were not fully guaranteed...but now that the guaranteed money has gotten out of hand for QB's & they don't want to continue to go up, they're forced to take a stand.. A stand they should've taken a decade ago when QB salaries were approaching 35 mil. They could've easily given up the fully guaranteed contracts and put a cap on salaries that way....similarly to how the NBA has max contracts and kinda what they finally had to do when they came to their senses with NFL draftees and their contracts that were getting out of control.
I had a buddy of mine way overpay for a car. Our entire friend group told him he was an idiot, but it wasn't our money. Not a single one of us would have purchased that car at the price our friend did. Just because Cleveland way overpaid for Watson does not mean the other owners are that stupid. Every single contract has an out. You talk about Daniel Jones 160 million dollar contract. How much is guaranteed ? When can the Giants get out of it without an exorbitant cap hit? Patrick frigging Mahomes basically signed a 4 year contract with a ton up gauranteed money up front, but the Chiefs can get out of it in 4-5 years without a terrible cap hit. The ONLY team that has screwed themselves are the Cleveland Browns.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
Lol, yep...& as bad as you claim he supposedly was...... getting ready to be put out of the league.....he was still better than:
Tom Savage
AJ McCarron
TJ Yates
Tyrod Taylor
Davis Mills
Kyle Allen
Jeff Driskel
All guys who started & played games for the Texans since 2017 outside of DW4. & that's just us...
I think i would've rather watched Kaep lose us games than any of the aforementioned....That's just my unbaised opinion.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
Couple of things you've clearly failed to understand:
1 Mahomes' contract is trash. No other qb would've signed the contract he signed having achieved what he had already achieved. That's truly a 1 of 1 contract...& not in a good way.
2 Once you get up to over 100 mil plus in guaranteed money to any 1 player, you've already "screwed" yourself as a franchise...period. That type of money isn't whisked away no matter when you're able to "get out of the contract". Jones was guaranteed 92 million...81 million of that guaranteed at signing....they can get out of it after 2025 at the earliest...meaning they're stuck with him for the next 2 years....a....Now lets put that in perspective. His numbers are VERY similar to Davis Mills. Are you good with the Texans giving Davis Mills nearly 100 million for his 16 passing TD's? You think that type of money might prevent them from signing a key FA...or resigning 1 of their own key FA?
3 This is bigger than the LJ8 contract.
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Mr teX
Hall of Fame
I'm sure the Ravens know where they have wiggle room with him. Problem is, they're too busy leaking other info to make the kid look bad so that THEY don't look bad for having misjudged the market....Should've had the kid signed 2 years ago before he even had the DW4 contract to use as a comparision...Noone's talking about that tho. Too busy criticizing LJ8.
Carr Bombed
Hall of Fame
Well gee, maybe he would've actually got a shot over those guys if he actually showed up to private workouts that were set up with multiple teams. Let me guess, not his fault. Kinda hard to get a job when you don't even show up for the damn interview.
So the Ravens are colluding with... the Ravens?
The point I was trying to address is that without an agent, who is contacting other teams for him to try to get an offer? Who is trying to negotiate a trade for him?
There’s plenty of folks actually in the know who believe its collusion…most of which have direct experience in dealing with the owners. They’re clearly colluding to stop the long term fully guarantee contracts for players from getting further down the line. But whatever..there’s “no proof”…lol
you guys are arguing on the grounds of semantics..”oh, well you can’t legally prove it, so it’s probably not”…lol. funny b/c the same legal standard wasn’t used in that cluster&@#% of a situation with DW4…then it was “where there’s smoke, there’s fire if 24 women said he did it…” lol.
Yup, CLEARLY it wasn’t collusion tho when apparently none of these qb starved teams were “unwilling” or didn’t think it was worth it to bring in Kaep ……..conveniently after the whole kneeling situation and lawsuit…but were willing to pluck bum ass Case Keenum out of a deer blind….& would apparently rather trot out bums like Taylor Heineke and give Carson Wentz chance after chance to flounder….no collusion there. They just thought those guys were a better than a qb who’d led his team to a SB just a few years pior..
I'm not arguing semantics. You're being obtuse and refusing to see anyone else's perspective but your own.
There were TWO teams willing to give Watson a fully guaranteed contract. One was the Browns. Why doesn't the other one step up and guarantee Lamar Jackson?
And that shows that there are at least two teams that are not in your collusion conspiracy.
And you have failed to refute the basic premise that maybe the league just doesn't value Jackson like they do other QBs, for whatever reasons.
Do you honestly believe no teams would step up if this was Mahomes, Allen, or Burrow in this same exact situation?
You're starting to sound like Mike Florio.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
As T-skyss alluded to, not giving fully guaranteed long term contracts has been on the agenda for years for all of the owners. One of those things known that they all want, but is not spoken on publicly. So by the Ravens taking the very public stance they've taken.... them continuously leaking the contracts they've supposedly offered him...they've effectively non-publicly put out the call to the other teams.. trying to make it appear as if they're doing all they can to resign him..But what they're really saying to the rest of the owners is "don't sign this guy for what he's asking for b/c if you do y'all could be on the other end of this situation the next go around..."
There's a reason this is unprecedented territory with a franchise qb..& its b/c most franchises are smart enough to have extended their guy well before the 5th year option..This is why the narrative of him wanting to best the DW4 fully guaranteed contract is garbage...He didn't even have that to compare to 2 years ago when they could've signed him to a lucrative extension but failed.
The agent thing....That's a problem he's definitely going to have to bite the bullet and address But that's an easy fix for him. ..But i also believe the Ravens have purposely made it difficult for him to seek a trade with or without an agent as well by doing the things they done.
sandman
Brexit Advisor
Can you elaborate on the things they have done? I am thinking of the franchise tag but many teams use it every year. Is it the type of tag where he can negotiate but they have a right to match or get compensatory picks? Teams are thinking twice about giving up draft capital and signing a big contract? I will admit that particular aspect favors the team instead of the player, but isn't that something bargained for in the CBA? I feel like they are playing by the rules everyone agrees to. But I may be missing something here.
Carr Bombed
Hall of Fame
Yeah....b/c that's the ONLY reason he was black-balled...
Keep moving the goal posts..
If Colin took a truth pill, he would tell you he didn't want to or couldn't play in the NFL anymore.. His actions certainly said that. He's a political activist now. Last time he showed up to a camp he looked like a regular Joe off the street and played like it. Not even close to his previous playing shape. The guy wasn't a victim, he quit on his NFL career.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
A team willing to sign LJ8 would have to give up the same draft capital no matter which tag they used & 99% of the time, teams use the exclusive vs non exclusive. & They are playing by the rules everyone agreed to & the tags have always favored the team which is just part of the reason players don't like them despite what they get paid for 1 year. The problem for me is the Ravens' credibility in using the NE franchise tag vs the exclusive tag imo. If you're offering him what the market says he should get & you're confident about that, let him get out there on the exclusive franchise tag. Why are you concerned with being able to match any offer he could get if you're so confident that the offer you gave him is the best he could get? To me that speaks to them knowing that he could probably get a better offer out on the market than what they're offering him. But the way it is spinned by them is them giving him the opportunity to go get a better deal..
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Mr teX
Hall of Fame
uh huh.....There's no goalpost moving there's just you cosigning the BS of these unscrupulous ass owners b/c their misplaced ideals line up with yours....this time. Fact is, even if what you say is 100% true (it isn't) Kaep showing up to camp "looking like a regular joe off the street" was almost certainly still better than any qb the Texans and several other teams' threw out on the field for at least 3 of the last 4 years...That is 100% fact sir. let alone back up qbs being brought in from the joke XFL & guys who can barely throw....like Mr. Tebow or our very own Jeff Driskel lol. Newsflash buddy, most guys out of the league for a year or 2 aren't going to be in tip top NFL shape. He didn't give up on his career he was black-balled into it.
sandman
Brexit Advisor
Don't disagree with most of this, other than to say that the Ravens think he is worth the franchise tag price, which is $32 million. If I want to believe any of the unconfirmed rumors out there, their multi-year offer was similar to $32 million per year. So I believe that the Ravens have placed a market value on him. A great test of this theory is if someone would offer him more than that price range and see what they do. But so far, no team has. So at the end of the day, the market - even if that market consists of just the Ravens - has set his value. I take no issue if he doesn't agree with it. But until someone offers something different, he's a $32 million per year QB.
Carr Bombed
Hall of Fame
Who said anything about Colin not showing up in shape after 2 years off? Newsflash, I'm talking about how he reported to camp in 2016, long before the kneeling ever happened.. It's becoming pretty clear you don't know what the hell you're talking about regarding this situation and just echoing what the rest of woke media was at the time (and still do). They are revisionist historians who didn't/aren't reporting what actually happened in San Francisco
I remember vividly how that off-season went down.. went back and found a article about it..
Colin Kaepernick lost weight, and it's becoming an issue
Colin Kaepernick's mediocre on-field performance may be impacted by his slimmer physique, a side effect of three offseason surgeries.
www.businessinsider.com
I remember Jay Glazer and NFL Live talking about how poorly he was playing, how much underweight he was, and how it was a real possibility he wouldn't make the team and Blaine freaking Gabbert could beat him out. He was NOT a good starting QB at that point and on his way out of the league before he was "blackballed". Which is complete crap.
There's a difference between outright blackballing someone and deciding that their skills/ability to help your team no longer outweigh the enormous B.S. baggage/drama they carry with them to your franchise. If he still had those skills, guess what.. a team would've signed him and took on ALL of that baggage.
Need to look no further than the pervert who used to play here. League felt like he was a elite top 5 QB, so teams didn't "blackball" a guy accused of over 2 dozen sexual assault allegations. Instead he got the richest contract in NFL history. Why?.. because the league felt like he was still worth the squeeze. Kaepernick was already out of juice.
Lesson: If you're going to be a huge pain in the ass.. you better be worth it and good at your job. This isn't NFL specific, goes for any industry..
People try to act like Colin Kaepernick was some NFL martyr, he wasn't. He was already washing out as a starter in the league.
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What? If he's on the exclusive tag he cannot negotiate with other teams at all. Ravens did him a favor allowing him to seek his market level
Mangler
Toro de España
Lamar Jackson is literally THE definition of a running QB.
Mangler
Toro de España
Lamar being a running QB is not a “narrative,” it’s a fact. Although I don’t know why you’d even tie Lamar Jackson to Kancernick, as he actually sucked and was about to be released. Also, Lamar has never caused the drama that fake martyr has. You can scream “collusion” all you want but that’s just another woke narrative. The fact is that he reaped what he sowed. He has to be a special kind of stupid to think that the NFL would employ him after the attention grab on the sideline and after that ridiculous Wokecumentary of him comparing the NFL draft to slave trading.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
Get out of here with your garbage ass political narratives.